Seat Belts are NOT Optional

[capt2102 64]

That's why I still ride the back-step... no seat belts or air-paks back there, just fresh air and sunshine!

[TRUCK6018 50]

The difference in that situation is that the Chief was the proximate cause of the problem. If there's a seat belt in the truck and you are told that you should wear it (which we all are told in OSHA class) and you choose not to, YOU are the proximate cause of whatever happens to you.

YOU along with the driver for moving while you are not belted and the officer for allowing the driver to move while you were not belted.

[ajsbear 11]

That's why I still ride the back-step... no seat belts or air-paks back there, just fresh air and sunshine!

What about the side step on the ladders? I remember doing that in Mt Vernon when we had the spare.

Hey dadbo46 remember that?

[jack10562 414]

Many years ago we got dressed up on the hose bed, riding on top of the moving engine.... we selected a pair of boots from the racks hanging on the sides, put on a coat, grabbed helmet, then jumped down onto the rear step to enjoy the rest of the ride!

[firecapt32 282]

You know i was holding off but if you say you dont ware your seat belt in your own car there is no hope for you. you know never mind im done touting back and forth with you. PLain and simple waring seat belts saves lives.

[ajsbear 11]

You know i was holding off but if you say you dont ware your seat belt in your own car there is no hope for you. you know never mind im done touting back and forth with you. PLain and simple waring seat belts saves lives.

We always seem to find the ones not wearing seatbelts right?

They're the ones we find thrown from the car or crumpled up on the floor.

[Bnechis 3,961]

If there's a seat belt in the truck and you are told that you should wear it (which we all are told in OSHA class) and you choose not to, YOU are the proximate cause of whatever happens to you....... You can't hurt someone else by not wearing your seat belt or helmet.

So when the rig crashes and your 100, 200 or 300 (or whatever) pounds slam into me ending my career thats ok......I'm wearing mine and my injury is not caused by my actions, they are your fault. And if I (or my family) can sue you or not or even win is not the issue.

The issue is you may believe you can be hurt or not care. But if your on my rig your job is to protect my back. If you can't or won't do that ..........I can not call you "Brother".

[ex-commish 490]

The difference in that situation is that the Chief was the proximate cause of the problem. If there's a seat belt in the truck and you are told that you should wear it (which we all are told in OSHA class) and you choose not to, YOU are the proximate cause of whatever happens to you. I'm sure there will be an attempt at civil litigation, but unless they can prove that the Chief willfully promoted not wearing seat belts, then the litigation will be DOA.

Sorry, I'm just sick of people putting hammers over people's heads with fear of litigation. Call me stupid, but I don't wear my seat belt in my car either. I was in an accident when I was 20 years old that would have killed me if I was wearing my seat belt. If I end up ejected and dead, that's my own dumb fault. If I end up getting a ticket, I'll be mad, but again, it's my own dumb fault. Seat belt laws and helmet laws drive me nuts because they are a victimless crime (unless you consider the financial burden). You can't hurt someone else by not wearing your seat belt or helmet. The only place I wear it is in the ambulance at work because I'm required to by company policy (coincidentally not by state law).

AllthooughI respect your position we will just to have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe in an ounce of prevention.

[CLM92982 26]

So when the rig crashes and your 100, 200 or 300 (or whatever) pounds slam into me ending my career thats ok......I'm wearing mine and my injury is not caused by my actions, they are your fault. And if I (or my family) can sue you or not or even win is not the issue.

The issue is you may believe you can be hurt or not care. But if your on my rig your job is to protect my back. If you can't or won't do that ..........I can not call you "Brother".

This is an excellent point. Even if you have no regard for your own safety, think about how your actions may affect that of your brothers and sisters.

No Seatbelt, No Excuse

[DaRock98 76]

So when the rig crashes and your 100, 200 or 300 (or whatever) pounds slam into me ending my career thats ok......I'm wearing mine and my injury is not caused by my actions, they are your fault. And if I (or my family) can sue you or not or even win is not the issue.

The issue is you may believe you can be hurt or not care. But if your on my rig your job is to protect my back. If you can't or won't do that ..........I can not call you "Brother".

Excellent post!

[Guest]

Having seen a few of the departments respond that some of you belong to, I think it would be prudent to not throw stones when living in a glass house. It seems to me that you should worry about your own departments and whose wearing seat belts there before you attack everyone on here. And before I am accused of being against seatbelts, I am not.

[NWFDMedic 58]

So when the rig crashes and your 100, 200 or 300 (or whatever) pounds slam into me ending my career thats ok......I'm wearing mine and my injury is not caused by my actions, they are your fault. And if I (or my family) can sue you or not or even win is not the issue.

The issue is you may believe you can be hurt or not care. But if your on my rig your job is to protect my back. If you can't or won't do that ..........I can not call you "Brother".

Excellent post and quite frankly something I had never thought about.

[ny10570 745]

Watch that rollover video again. The unrestrained dummy lands right in the belted dummy's face. If you're belted in and the guy next too you is packed up without a belt he could very well kill you.

[jack10562 414]

I stand corrected on my earlier figure that 25% of LODD are associated with responding/returning.

The number for year end 2007 is actually 29%!

NFPA 2007 Report

There were 30 fatalities while responding to or returning from alarms. It is important to note that not all deaths in this category are the result of crashes. Twenty of the 30 occurred in collisions and rollovers, nine were due to sudden cardiac events or stroke, and one firefighter fell off a pumper inside the station after returning from a fire.

The full report is available here:

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files//PDF/NFPA..._fatalities.pdf

Please take note in the vehicle related incident descriptions, MANY of those killed WERE NOT WEARING SEAT BELTS!!!

[helicopper 1,050]

I stand corrected on my earlier figure that 25% of LODD are associated with responding/returning.

The number for year end 2007 is actually 29%!

The full report is available here:

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files//PDF/NFPA..._fatalities.pdf

Please take note in the vehicle related incident descriptions, MANY of those killed WERE NOT WEARING SEAT BELTS!!!

Careful Jack! Don't use "scare tactics" - only 10 of the fatalities were APPARATUS accidents where seatbelts were a factor. I mean really, only 10 deaths, what's the big deal? [/end sarcasm]

Even one preventable death is entirely too many. If we were able to reduce the fatalities from preventable accidents there could have been as much as 1/3 fewer fatalities last year and that would be the start of a great trend, don't you think?

Of the 25 deaths in road vehicles mentioned above, 11 of the victims were not wearing seat belts (eight were ejected), five were wearing their seat belts, and one crash involved a motorcycle. Seat belt use was not reported in the other eight crashes, but two of the victims were at least partially ejected, suggesting that they were not restrained. Excessive speed was a factor in at least six of the 24 crashes, one of which resulted in two deaths. Drugs may have been a factor in one crash. Other factors reported were failure to yield, driver inexperience, and driver inattention.

Look at how many of these factors can be engineered out in the future! Speed, driver inexperience, seatbelt use, driver inattention, failure to yield, drug use - are all preventable factors. Better driver training, adherence to policies (like no vehicles move if seatbelts are not on) and supervision by officers/chiefs could have a profound impact on all this.

There most certainly can be litigation based upon the apparatus operator ignoring the fact that people weren't restrained prior to operating the vehicle and supervisors are most certainly accountable for the actions of their subordinates. To simply dismiss it does everyone a great disservice.

While you may not be a fan of scare tactics... When all else fails...

Entirely too many lives are being wasted in stupid accidents to worry about the statistics.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I've been watching the show and I really do have to laugh at some of the things I've read on this thread. You really have to be ****** kidding me. Sorry for the profanity but what else fits here and if its gets edited I dropped an F bomb. I've heard it all....when its your time its your time, seat belts won't help. They're a violation of your civil rights and so on. Give me a ****** break.

NWFD..I value many of your posts...some of this is going to come out pointed, I really just want to make points off your points and don't mean it as a personal bash. You'll wear your seatbelt at work via policy...but never mind state law. Hmmmm. Do you wear gloves at your jobs? Why? Victimless right...so what the other person has Hep C or you may have gotten and not known and spread it....nevermind that your unbelted, but the other driver caused the accident that you get critically injured or killed we work you, get you back and your broccoli in some extended care home.

Scare tactics...I call them exact statistics as given by NFPA, the NFFF, OFPC etc. He's not making them up, he's using what he's read, that I've read and tons of other proactive, safety conscious firefighters, fire officers and fire instructors do. Talk about scare tactics...I'm very interested in knowing what your near miss was that not having a seatbelt on saved your life. Not for nothing...statistically I'll take my chances with mine on and the other integrated safety engineering and systems in my vehicles. I think I've seen the miracles of seat belts and air bags more times then not as a experienced firefighter/paramedic then I've ever said...good thing they weren't wearing their seatbelt. That's a phrase right up there with, should have had his seat belt on...and...the smoke detectors were non functional.

Let's throw in another factor and a conversation I had with a friend of mine who is one of the best medics I've worked with, after I noticed he never wore his seatbelt in the flycar. We all want parity and respect and a million other little words discussed....well if that's the case...be a ****** leader and show the correct example and wear your seatbelts.

I have a video that I use out of Britain that highlights what can happen in a vehicle when just one person isn't belted, rollover or not. Get the right mechanics and amount of energy and that person and their big a** head becomes a missle inside the vehicle. Those of you I've taught EVOC and pump ops knows this video well, along with the "Heaven can wait" video I and several other instructors show. If I can find a copy of a link to it I will post it.

I've said on other threads of this discussion, that reducing LODD's by wearing seatbelts is a start in the right direction. Does it mean that every LODD where a belt wasn't used, that they would have survived no. But I'm willing to bet the majority would and in some years that would put us under the 100 LODD mark for those years. If we really want to reduce LODD's in vehicles...lets get serious...you don't wear a belt you get no LODD benefits. Then maybe some will think about it.

For the young buck saying it takes to long and such. Nothing for your personal safety takes to long. Its amazing how Phoenix FD can operate so well with no SCBA's in their cabs. I mean after all...what do they do anyway..right

I mean if that's really the case should we retro fit all POV's with seats that accommodate a SCBA for speed?

m

WEAR YOUR SEATBELTS!!! BE A LEADER!! BE A ROLE MODEL!! Because if you don't and you bite the big one...your family will wish you did!

Edited August 7, 2008 by jack10562
you know why.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Here is the link to Heaven can Wait and several other safety videos from the Naval Safety Center.

Heaven Can wait is just past halfway down when scrolling. Good impact video and I believe you can download it..hint hint safety and training officers.

http://safetycenter.navy.mil/MEDIA/gallery...ral/default.htm

[SteveOFD 176]

Second, the concept that drivers of apparatus would be subject to litigation is absolutely absurd. In New York State, there is no law for back seat passengers requiring them to wear safety belts of any kind. If there is no department policy regarding safety belts and the drivers' responsibility to make sure they are worn, then there is no grounds for litigation against the driver. Stop trying to scare people.

Finally, while chiefs or districts may be subject to litigation, the possibility of the litigation actually sticking is somewhere between slim and none. In fact, a chief or district would be more likely to be subject to litigation if there was a written policy that was not followed and something happened.

Suggest you review NFPA 1500 - "Standard on Fire Department Occupational Safety and Health Program". Under section 4-2 "Driver/Operator of Fire Department Apparatus", section 4-2.4 states "Drivers shall not move fire department vehicles until all persons on the vehicle are seated and secured with seat belts in approved riding positions".

Although there is no NYS law that says you have to wear seat belts in fire apparatus, when you, as the Officer or Driver, are ordered to appear in court to defend your action of not requiring your members to wear their belts, the odds are that you will be held responsible both criminally(possible jail time) and/or civily (held financially responsible).

As I have stated in previous threads, National Fire Protection Association Standards are not law unless they are adopted as law in that jurisdiction. These Standards are what are considered "consensus standards" which means that they are formulated, and adopted by the members of the NFPA. When you are in court the prosecuting attorney will question you as to why you did not abide by the common practice (NFPA Standard) that your Brother and Sister Firefighters have formulated and approved and are abiding by.

So, even though you are not responsible by NYS law, a jury will hold you responsible because you were not enforcing nationally recognized regulations that your Brother and Sister Firefighters enforce.

Litigation against Fire Department Drivers and Officers is happening more and more. And, they are being held responsible in court.

Stay safe, BUCKLE UP.

[NWFDMedic 58]

I'm very interested in knowing what your near miss was that not having a seatbelt on saved your life.

Well, I'm not going to argue your points because they all have merit. As far as my accident was concerned, I was hit in the driver's door by a vehicle that decided not to stop at a red light (and I was young and stupid and thought that the green light was my ok to go). The impact actually sent my upper half across the center of the car and basically into the passenger's seat. The driver's seat was crushed into the steering wheel and broken in at least 3 places. I know it's the exception rather than the rule, but on that day I was lucky not to be belted in.

I don't know if this thread will make me change my mind in my personal vehicle (I'm a stubborn getting-older son of a gun), but the post regarding the safety of the other occupants of the back of an engine left an impression on me.

[Tanker 10eng 140]

Being one involved in a fire truck roll over, the only injury I got was from my partner ( driver ) landing on me.... since that day, I do travel in the back of the engine without the belt while dressing, only to belt up, once the gear is on... as a driver, I ALWAYS wear the belt, and require everyone with me to be belted up... I do not want to be hit from flying Fire Fighters.... without my seatbelt on, chances are REAL GOOD, my head would of bounced off the road as the passenger window hit the blacktop...

I also hand to promise my KIDS, I would ALWAYS wear it in the future..

[RWC130 594]

I'd rather spend an extra 10 seconds to buckle my seatbelt

going on a call then be Seriously Injured or KILLED.

The same goes for unbuckling my seatbelt, What does it take

10 seconds?

What's an extra 10 seconds before I can grab a SCBA, Irons,

Fire Hose, Medical Bag, or AED?

Unsecured Equipment in the Fire Apparatus or Ambulance

is also a BIG concern.

It would suck to be seat belted all safe and snug then take a

a piece of Equipment to the head!

Next time you jump in the Fire Truck or Ambulance

BUCKLE UP and CHECK FOR HAZARDS that can hurt you.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

What's an extra 10 seconds before I can grab a SCBA, Irons,

Fire Hose, Medical Bag, or AED?

Same reason we don't run on the fireground...might be the last 10 seconds of fresh air you'll breath and blue sky you'll see in your life.

[xchief2x 79]

Tanker10engr - you forgot to mention that your partner (driver -me) was not wearing a seatbelt, had I been I would not have landed on you. I have been wearing a seatbelt all the time since that day and I won't move the rig until everyone else is belted. The reason I never wore a belt is based on the legislation of the great state of NY when they wrote the law, foolishly they exempted emergency service vehicles. There is no reason in the world not to wear a belt, the driver & officer should ensure all are belted before the rig moves. Let's try to cut down on the approxiamtely 25 unnecessary fatalaties we experience annually in MVA's with apparatus, wear belts, slow down, stay alive, remember "Everyone goes Home"

[jack10562 414]

Gerry, I can remember hearing you calling "MAYDAY" on the radio!

You guys were very lucky no one was seriously injured!

Here are two pictures I took that day (4/9/04) which captures the rationale:

[firecapt32 282]

Lets say it one more time for thoses that may be hard of hearing WEAR YOUR SEAT BELTS the life you save just may be yours.

Tanker 10Eng you were lucky --we all want you around for a long time

[xchief2x 79]

JAck that was actually Billy on the radio, and fire cap32 what about me, don't want me around for a long time? LOL

Like fire cap said where your seat belt, it really shouldn't have to be a law or a department policy, it should be common sense and another skill that we must do.

[Remember585 815]

JAck that was actually Billy on the radio, and fire cap32 what about me, don't want me around for a long time? LOL

Like fire cap said where your seat belt, it really shouldn't have to be a law or a department policy, it should be common sense and another skill that we must do.

Yeah, and as scary as it was for you guys, it was THE WORST THING I EVER HEARD on my end of the radio. Especially knowing that my guys, specifically my Dad and my friend were in that rig and I had no idea how bad it was.

If you don't wear your belts for you then do it for those with you, those on the road with you, those at home waiting for you and those who look up to you. That accident prompted my change in behavior too, and prevented me from serious injury in both of my accidents this past December. If I can find the photos from my Ambulance crash I will share them. It was minor, but I am more then confident if I wasn't wearing my belt it would of been worse for me. As for the accident in my POV (not a call, just driving) if I wasn't wearing it I more then likely would of been ejected or sent into the windshield.

I would rather be the butt of everyone's jokes and criticism then in the ground rotting!

WEAR IT, WEAR IT, WEAR IT.

'Nuff said...

Edited August 8, 2008 by Remember585