Volunteer Duty To Act

[moggie6 54]

I was just curious if anyone happens to know if Volunteer Firefighters in NYS have a Duty To Act. I know certified health care providers do but what about volunteer firefighters. For instance, several members of a volunteer fire dept are at the station when an alarm comes in. Some members decide to not go because they don't feel like it for whatever reason. Can anyone hold them accountable?

[abaduck 123]

I was just curious if anyone happens to know if Volunteer Firefighters in NYS have a Duty To Act. I know certified health care providers do but what about volunteer firefighters. For instance, several members of a volunteer fire dept are at the station when an alarm comes in. Some members decide to not go because they don't feel like it for whatever reason. Can anyone hold them accountable?

It seems to me that if they're in the firehouse and ordered to respond (assuming they're not intoxicated, injured or otherwise unfit or unable) they would be guilty of insubordination if they refused.

Mike

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Thats a good question. I do know that despite being certified volunteer ems providers are not held at the same level of accountability as those who are professionals. They are covered under the good samaritan laws, whereas again professional providers are not.

As far as firefighters I would imagine it would be somewhat similiar to that of other legal issues of similiar services and certain occurances or criteria for such would have to apply in order for a civil complaints to be made. Although the right persons would have to know this occurred, there would have to be some sort of damages that were caused by such members not responding, etc.

As far as can anyone hold them accountable. The obvious answer is yes, at the department level. The question is whether said department has a policy that says if you're in the building for business/social activity then you are to respond to a call. Obviously there are circumstances that would have to be taken into account, like if a person stops with their child(ren) and such. But it all starts with policy. Also its pretty simple that you would have to serious discuss what level of dedication anyone who would do that has.

[Jybehofd 85]

I was just curious if anyone happens to know if Volunteer Firefighters in NYS have a Duty To Act. I know certified health care providers do but what about volunteer firefighters. For instance, several members of a volunteer fire dept are at the station when an alarm comes in. Some members decide to not go because they don't feel like it for whatever reason. Can anyone hold them accountable?

What do you mean certified health care providers have a duty to act. I have been at the firehouse with a couple of emts sitting around refusing to go for a person with chest pain. There response was "I can't go i have to be somewhere..." alright I understand the but don't be there when I come back..... ?????? I have also heard this a some VACs too lately. Alright you don't like someone but come on they didn't call 911 because they thought it was bullshit. They want help and want to go to the hospital for the most part.

[shadow12083 17]

My understanding is that there is no state law to act, but in some areas there our town laws in regards to duty to act. But if your organization has a duty shift and you our on that assign duty shift you get treated like a commercial provider legally.

[Guest]

What do you mean certified health care providers have a duty to act. I have been at the firehouse with a couple of emts sitting around refusing to go for a person with chest pain. There response was "I can't go i have to be somewhere..." alright I understand the but don't be there when I come back..... ?????? I have also heard this a some VACs too lately. Alright you don't like someone but come on they didn't call 911 because they thought it was bullshit. They want help and want to go to the hospital for the most part.

picking and choosing calls is a major problem. granted i have decided to not go to fire calls to "assist con-ed for lighting" while in the firehouse, bc i think that's a complete waste of a resource, but i don't stick around the fd.

as far as ems, i can't stand how one agency cannot get out for a chest pain or diff breather but 5 min later an mva with poss pin comes in and they get both ambulances out the door in minutes and they leave the other agency down 1 ambulance for selfish reasons. sometimes i wish NYS was as proactive like CT was in the Bethel case. wishful thinking...

[trauma74 111]

ALL EMS Providers in NYS have a Duty to Act within NYS!!!!! It does not matter if you work for a commercial service or a VAC, you have a Duty to Act even when off duty. If you are out somewhere and someone becomes sick or gets injured and you are fit to act (you are not intoxicated etc) you have to take action. If you do not take action and the person who is sick or injured finds out that you are a NYS Certified EMS provider, you can end up in some trouble.

MODERATOR NOTE: Doug, please post a reference or citation for this comment.

[Guest]

If you do not take action and the person who is sick or injured finds out that you are a NYS Certified EMS provider, you can end up in some trouble.

that's the problem, the public has no idea what the hell is going on/what should be going on, and those agencies carry on business as usual.

[PoqFFEMT 6]

Hmm Here's my 2 cents... (By the end of this thread, that should be a lot of cents!) Anyway, I joined my local Volunteer Fire and Rescue squads to donate my time. When I sign up for standby or am at the firehouse, I am obligated to respond to any and all calls. One cannot tell me that I have to respond when I'm at my paying job or even like now when I am at home alone with my infant daughter. I just don't sign up during the times when I know I cannot go. How could someone or some law tell me that I have to respond right now?

John

[gamewell45 258]

Hmm Here's my 2 cents... (By the end of this thread, that should be a lot of cents!) Anyway, I joined my local Volunteer Fire and Rescue squads to donate my time. When I sign up for standby or am at the firehouse, I am obligated to respond to any and all calls. One cannot tell me that I have to respond when I'm at my paying job or even like now when I am at home alone with my infant daughter. I just don't sign up during the times when I know I cannot go. How could someone or some law tell me that I have to respond right now?

John

The answer is pure and simple; they can't. Especially if your at home. If your at the fire station (for whatever reason) and you can't reasonably respond to the call, thats where it ends. Most, if not all volunteer fire departments understand the nature of the system and won't even tread into that territory.

[Guest]

Hmm Here's my 2 cents... (By the end of this thread, that should be a lot of cents!) Anyway, I joined my local Volunteer Fire and Rescue squads to donate my time. When I sign up for standby or am at the firehouse, I am obligated to respond to any and all calls. One cannot tell me that I have to respond when I'm at my paying job or even like now when I am at home alone with my infant daughter. I just don't sign up during the times when I know I cannot go. How could someone or some law tell me that I have to respond right now?

John

it sounds like your fd has scheduled shifts for fire and ems calls, if so that is real good. i'm not familiar with any vollie fd in my area (westchester) that have "on-call" FF's, but as far as i do know all of the vac's have at least primary ambulances with "on-call" crews. but then again even unmanned fire rigs can get out the door faster than the manned ambulances bc there is a competition to get on the first due fire rig, and those FF's may move a little faster than the ems crews who are coming from home!

[Guest MVFD334]

ALL EMS Providers in NYS have a Duty to Act within NYS!!!!! It does not matter if you work for a commercial service or a VAC, you have a Duty to Act even when off duty. If you are out somewhere and someone becomes sick or gets injured and you are fit to act (you are not intoxicated etc) you have to take action. If you do not take action and the person who is sick or injured finds out that you are a NYS Certified EMS provider, you can end up in some trouble.

In NYS you have a Duty to act in NYS as an EMT-B as I understood it that is once you initiate care.

If your driving down the street and an accident happens (in your own POV), you do not have to pull over and help. Yes it may be the moral and right thing to do, but you are not required too.

At the same time, if you sign your name up for a duty night as emt and you fail to answer a call, you can be held accountable.

All of these things can change because of state and local protocols or department policy.

This is what was taught at PCBES.

[Guest]

In NYS you have a Duty to act in NYS as an EMT-B as I understood it that is once you initiate care.

If your driving down the street and an accident happens (in your own POV), you do not have to pull over and help. Yes it may be the moral and right thing to do, but you are not required too.

At the same time, if you sign your name up for a duty night as emt and you fail to answer a call, you can be held accountable.

All of these things can change because of state and local protocols or department policy.

This is what was taught at PCBES.

if you have EMT blatant agency sticker/decals or EMT state tags or any other blatant EMT insignia on your car, you better pull over. you're advertising that you are a EMT, therefore you shall be pulling over. i was told by not doing so is punishable by the courts and the revokation of your card.

MODERATOR NOTE: Please post a reference or citation for this comment.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

A little bit off topic but a little hypothetical situation, what are some of the issues that could be faced if a firefighter/EMT has a car marked identifying them as such, but is not driving that car, a different family member is who is not a FF/EMT is driving that car. If a situation that requires a FF/EMT arrises, are there any liability or other issues in this situation?

[Guest]

A little bit off topic but a little hypothetical situation, what are some of the issues that could be faced if a firefighter/EMT has a car marked identifying them as such, but is not driving that car, a different family member is who is not a FF/EMT is driving that car. If a situation that requires a FF/EMT arrises, are there any liability or other issues in this situation?

good question - i don't have a clue!

i'd tell your family members to pull over if flagged down and explain the car they're driving is not theirs, so civilians or even cops on scene don't write down you plate and hunt you down. that's the only opinion i have for that.

[OnTheWheel 43]

Keep in mind, calling 911 and reporting the accident or such is "acting". Same as a Police Officer witnessing a crime in progress, it may not be safe for you to jump in (unarmed, outnumbered, family with you) but getting a good description and calling it in is acting.

[Danger 160]

I don't know what the rule is on this stuff. But I joined to act not to hang out at the firehouse and socialize. Sometimes I get stuck on back to back calls on the ambulance. It's business. The pick and choose crowd is one thing when you're at home, but not when you are at the firehouse and just don't feel like it. Step up and do your job.

[LTNRFD 266]

Thats a good question. I do know that despite being certified volunteer ems providers are not held at the same level of accountability as those who are professionals. They are covered under the good samaritan laws, whereas again professional providers are not.

I believe you have the wrong info on this. The Good Samaritan Laws protect the general public, who to their best knowledge and ability would help the ill or injured person as any other lay person would. As to there being a difference in accountability between a volunteer EMS provider and a professional provider. There is none. You are held accountable to your level of training. There might be a difference as to the insurance coverage a volunteer agency has over a commercial company.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

LT...I'm only going on what I've heard in courses and by legit instructors. I could very well be wrong..but I have heard several times that volunteer EMS providers are offerred protection that paid, career, professional, etc. EMS providers do not. If I mis stated I apologize and thank my fellow colleagues for pointing this out..could it be the info was wrong or has changed over time? I'd have to research it again but I do think there is a section under good samaritan that volunteer providers do or can fall under.

Nathan...I'm not going back and forth with you. However, I can't help if you don't like my word choice brother. Which by the way your definitions back up exactly what I explained...you listed the verb definitions I stated and another wording of the noun definition that I did. I don't think this needs to go further on this board...if those feel like it needs to be discussed more by all means start a new thread.

[ex-commish 490]

I was just curious if anyone happens to know if Volunteer Firefighters in NYS have a Duty To Act. I know certified health care providers do but what about volunteer firefighters. For instance, several members of a volunteer fire dept are at the station when an alarm comes in. Some members decide to not go because they don't feel like it for whatever reason. Can anyone hold them accountable?

I don't know if there is any law but I can honestly tell you if a member does not go because he/she don't feel like it than as a former chief I would of held them accountable along with thier keys to the firehouse because they would of been suspended on the spot.

[PoqFFEMT 6]

I think if someone told me that I was to be suspended because I was at home instead of responding to a call... I'd happily turn in my gear and find another department that is happy for the time I can and am willing to give.

[Danger 160]

I think if someone told me that I was to be suspended because I was at home instead of responding to a call... I'd happily turn in my gear and find another department that is happy for the time I can and am willing to give.

QTIP. I could be wrong but I'm interpreting what he is saying as someone who blatantly refuses to go while able bodied and needed. Not like the SS is going to spy on you and take away your kids for not going to the pump out.

[Guest]

what a great ? In my fire department I know there are people that go on calls for EMS all the time. I have notice that if there is a fire or MVA we get more responders on the scene. I do wish at times we have more for the EMS. I understand that poeple are working have children at home and can't come, but why is there more when we have a fire or MVA. We also have some that just don't respond because they don't want to or they don't think they can help.

[gamewell45 258]

what a great ? In my fire department I know there are people that go on calls for EMS all the time. I have notice that if there is a fire or MVA we get more responders on the scene. I do wish at times we have more for the EMS. I understand that poeple are working have children at home and can't come, but why is there more when we have a fire or MVA. We also have some that just don't respond because they don't want to or they don't think they can help.

If i'm reading your post correctly, its most likely because EMS calls don't require the manpower you'd need for a MVA or fire call. Having 40 or 50 people show up for an EMS call would be a waste of manpower and time. If you have 5-6 people to assist at an EMS scene normally thats all you need.

[OoO 24]

If i'm reading your post correctly, its most likely because EMS calls don't require the manpower you'd need for a MVA or fire call. Having 40 or 50 people show up for an EMS call would be a waste of manpower and time. If you have 5-6 people to assist at an EMS scene normally thats all you need.

5 or 6 people? 3 or 4 is more than enough.

[FFPCogs 863]

Your not too specific so I'll give a simple broad answer. If members are at the station and they decide Not to respond because they "don't want to" then they should get size 11s right in the a** on their way out the door...for good.

Just my $.02

Edited July 30, 2008 by FFPCogs

[INIT915 1,119]

Kudos to whichever Moderator is calling people out on this board to cite the rules/laws/statutes, etc., that are so easily thrown around as gospel.

[Guest EFFP411]

I distinctly remember that on the top of my application to the Fire Department, it stated this: "We appreciate the time and efforts you donate to our fire company, but we understand and want you to remember that your family, personal life, and paying job come first".... That was 6 years ago, i don't think much has changed. I know you are in a boat load of trouble if you are signed up for the ambulance roster and you are a no-show for calls. But, if you weren't signed up, then nobody is going to call you up screaming. The only thing that bugs me is when i show up to the firehouse to get the ambulance, and there are a handful of drivers and EMTs sitting in the rec room, and none of them get off their butts to take the ambulance out with me. They all give BS excuses why they can't go. Finally someone shows up, and 2 hours later upon our return, the same handful of people are still sitting on their butts glued to the tube!!! Then, 5 minutes later, a good sounding fire call goes out, and out the door they go, like a flash!!! THATS WHAT BUGS ME! Its just plain wrong. If you have something to do legitimately, then i have no gripes, but i don't want to see you parked on the sofa when i get back.

Sorry, rant over.

Edited July 30, 2008 by EFFP411

[abaduck 123]

what a great ? In my fire department I know there are people that go on calls for EMS all the time. I have notice that if there is a fire or MVA we get more responders on the scene. I do wish at times we have more for the EMS. I understand that poeple are working have children at home and can't come, but why is there more when we have a fire or MVA. We also have some that just don't respond because they don't want to or they don't think they can help.

I'm in exactly that position some of the time (stay-at-home dad). If it hits the fan and we have a working structure fire while I'm home alone with the kids, there are people I can call upon for emergency child care. If it's a 'routine' call... sorry, you'll have to manage without me; I'm not going to call on my emergency childcare for anything less than a working fire or other emergency where life is at hazard. (and I don't so badly; I'm in the top half dozen for attendance in my dept. But if I can't go, I can't go, simple as that.)

Mike

[lad12derff 283]

if you have EMT blatant agency sticker/decals or EMT state tags or any other blatant EMT insignia on your car, you better pull over. you're advertising that you are a EMT, therefore you shall be pulling over. i was told by not doing so is punishable by the courts and the revokation of your card.

MODERATOR NOTE: Please post a reference or citation for this comment.

And how should you protect yourself from any blood or other disease carrying fluid if you don't have the equipment? If you do not identify yourself as an ems provider and you do not start patient care then you are not guilty of any misconduct. Please post the law that says if I have an EMT sticker on my car I need to stop and render help. This is absolutely ridiculous.