Kiryas Joel Drops Monroe Fire Coverage

[Guest]

Monroe, NY - KJ Ends Fire Contract with Village

Monroe, NY - Village Trustee James Purcell informed the Monroe Village Board that the Village of Kiryas Joel has decided not to renew the fire contract with Monroe for support services with Monroe’s Mombasha Fire Company.

http://www.vosizneias.com/18526/2008/07/25...t-with-village/

Edited July 26, 2008 by jack10562
Fixed Quote and added link- Edited For Copyright Notice and EMTBravo Internet article Posting Policy

[TRUCK6018 50]

This should be interesting. Between the state grants that Kiryas Joel gets on a regular basis on top of all the other hand outs they get why not give some of it back? While I do not know the extent of relationship that KJ has with Monroe what are they going to do otherwise?

I know they have their own emergency service building with a couple of engines, ladder and rescue but if they can't properly staff it what are their other options? Rural Metro?

BTW what paper is that article from?

Edited July 26, 2008 by TRUCK6018

[Guest]

CHECK:

http://www.vosizneias.com/18526/2008/07/25...t-with-village/

If I'm not mistaken, all of their members are exterior only, due to facial hair & payes.

[NWFDMedic 58]

This should be interesting. Between the state grants that Kiryas Joel gets on a regular basis on top of all the other hand outs they get why not give some of it back? While I do not know the extent of relationship that KJ has with Monroe what are they going to do otherwise?

I know they have their own emergency service building with a couple of engines, ladder and rescue but if they can't properly staff it what are their other options? Rural Metro?

BTW what paper is that article from?

It is indeed an interesting situation and I'm surprised this hasn't made the local paper yet. KJ doesn't have interior firefighters but they have refused to contract for the services. I'm wondering if this would place the village in violation of some sort of law since incorporated villages in New York are accountable for the provision of fire service. I would also wonder what effect this has on the county mutual aid system. Could (or would) Monroe (or other) fire departments refuse mutual aid into KJ?

[TRUCK6018 50]

Could (or would) Monroe (or other) fire departments refuse mutual aid into KJ?

As long as both agencies are part of a county wide mutual aid system they can not (legally) refuse mutual aid. Additionally, mutual aid is for assistance to be provided when needed going both ways. Since KJ has nothing to offer back to Monroe, I don't know if they can be in a mutual aid agreement as I doubt another department would call for an agency that doesn't have any interior firefighters.

In checking the Orange County Division of Fire Services web site, KJ is not listed on the county fire department roster. If this is the case, I don't think another fire department is obligated to respond as "mutual aid". That being said, it would leave KJ unprotected unless they have another option. Being Monroe was previously under a contractual agreement, they were obligated to respond.

[abaduck 123]

It is indeed an interesting situation and I'm surprised this hasn't made the local paper yet. KJ doesn't have interior firefighters but they have refused to contract for the services.

????

What's the population? I didn't know it was possible for a town or village NOT to have interior FFs?!

Mike

[201/65 94]

The Hasidic FF's of Kiryas Joel do infact "pack up" and go interior. They are a part of the Orange County Mutual Aide System, and they have provided Mutual Aide services to surrounding area departments when requested. They are in service 24 hours, 7 days, 365 days a year, that includes the weekly sabbath and their religious holidays i.e. Passover.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I'm wondering if this would place the village in violation of some sort of law since incorporated villages in New York are accountable for the provision of fire service.

Once again we are faced with the fact that NYS does not have any standards for fire protection. The training requirements are for interior FF's not the provision of fire service. As long as you claim to have a dept. you are set.

Now lets look at what ISO requires as the rock bottom minimum to be a fire dept.

Minimum Criteria for Class 9

To receive a Public Protection Classification (PPCTM) of Class 9, a community must first have the minimum facilities and practices needed to get a PPC rating. The community must have at least one piece of apparatus with a pump capacity of 50 gpm at 150 psi and at least a 300-gallon water tank. The community must also earn a score of at least 70 credit points on the following items from the Fire Suppression Rating Schedule (FSRS):

Records

Records must indicate the date, time, and location of fires; the number of responding members; the number of training sessions; and maintenance of apparatus and equipment. Each community must also keep an up-to-date roster of fire department members. 10 points prorated

Equipment

The community must also provide the following equipment:

At least two 150-foot lengths of 3/4-inch or 1-inch fire department booster hose and a 1-1/2-inch preconnected hose, or the equivalent, each with a nozzle capable of discharging either a spray or straight stream. 15 points each

Two portable fire extinguishers suitable for use on Class A, B, and C fires. The minimum size should be 20-BC rating in dry chemical, 10-BC rating in CO2, and 2A rating in water-type extinguishers. 4 points

One 12-foot ladder with folding hooks 10 points

One 24-foot extension ladder 15 points

One pick-head axe 1 point

Two electric hand lights 4 points

One pike pole 2 points

One bolt cutter 2 points

One claw tool 1 point

One crowbar 1 point

So to be a class 9 department all you need is a brush truck and No SCBA's

NYS has 658 ISO 9 rated depts. (Thats 26% of all ratings in NYS) Now depts can be much better but just have a sh*t rating, but this is the minimum.

NYS also has 32 ISO 10's......Which means No Department is even recognized.

Also in NYS is ISO 8B which to get that all an ISO 9 Dept needs is:

Specifically, to get a rating of Class 8B, a community must meet these requirements:

It must meet the minimum requirements defined in Fire Suppression Rating Schedule (FSRS) Section 106, "Minimum Facilities for Applying This Schedule." IE be an ISO 9

It must be eligible for at least 5 points in FSRS Section 400, "Receiving and Handling Fire Alarms."

It must be eligible for at least 20 points in FSRS Section 500, "Fire Department."

An average of at least six firefighters must respond on first-alarm responses to structure fires.

For active firefighters, it must conduct a minimum of 24 hours per year of training in fighting structure fires.

The water supply must be able to deliver an uninterrupted minimum fire flow of 200 gpm for 20 minutes.

The minimum fire flow must be able to start within five minutes of the arrival of the first engine company.

So if your dept has 4,000 gals of water on wheels (including automatic aid depts) and 6 members with 24 hrs per yr training (wow 2 hrs per month) you can save your home owners 8% on property insurance.

Ther are 99 depts in NYS that are ISO PPC 8B...why cant the 658 class 9's do this?

31% of all NYS depts rate as 8B, 9 or 10

[weaselff 6]

Lets call out the giant pink elephant in the room. It is a widely known, but ignored fact in NYS that Satmar Hasidism and most other hasidism sects can pretty much do what ever they want. They have every politician by the balls due to money from shady real estate deals, they vote in blocs, and no politician wants to be labled an anti semite for disagreeing with them.

For someone to go into KJ and force them to have an FD would be career suicide.

[DR104 141]

Lets call out the giant pink elephant in the room. It is a widely known, but ignored fact in NYS that Satmar Hasidism and most other hasidism sects can pretty much do what ever they want. They have every politician by the balls due to money from shady real estate deals, they vote in blocs, and no politician wants to be labled an anti semite for disagreeing with them.

For someone to go into KJ and force them to have an FD would be career suicide.

I 2nd that!!!!!! You hit the nail on the head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NWFDMedic 58]

????

What's the population? I didn't know it was possible for a town or village NOT to have interior FFs?!

Mike

Apparently Mike M. has better information than I do. My initial knowledge of their FD was that they did not go interior, but I guess that is no longer the case. I know that KJ EMS has provisions for service on the Sabbath (ie. paid drivers).

To answer your question about population, that's the biggest mystery of all. The last population quote I saw was over 20,000 (making it the largest village in Orange County) but they have estimated the population will be near 30,000 by 2010.

I know there has been a ton of political clashing between the communities surrounding KJ and the residents of KJ but I'm sure a lot of that is due to a surrounding population that does not have an understanding of the community and their customs. KJ is not the "victim" though, because the residents of the village often do not respect the customs of the surrounding communities either. It also doesn't help that KJ generally votes as a bloc and generally for democrats in a county that is largely Republican.

From an emergency services standpoint, I can't tell you much about fire at all. I can tell you that 10 years ago, we had a lot more issue with KJ EMS, especially when we were providing them paramedic intercept service reguarly. Today they have a self-sufficient ALS service and we rarely meet them unless they are responding to a call outside of their community for members of their community (apparently their CON allows them to do this as they are a division of Hatzolah). There is the occasional discrepancy on scenes, usually regarding patient destinations but my experience has been if you take two minutes to talk to the KJ EMS representative and coordinate with them, they are more than helpful and appropriate care can be provided while respecting their wishes. A lot of the issues were also cleared up now that KJ communicates with county when responding, so it's not a surprise when they show up or if we show up and they are there.

[JetPhoto 626]

So now it's up to a neighboring dept to sign a contract for service or hire non hasdic people to run interior jobs.

I know some close fights have occurred on scenes of structure fires in the past. One prompting a call to have 36-1 to the scene along with the state police because they pulled their apparatus in to a structure fire and blocked the road and the responding interior FF had to hike a distance among other issues of who was in command.

Just remember folks this board is read by many, keep the tone of your comments neutral (another words don't bash them)

-J

[helicopper 1,050]

It'll take some kind of tragedy in one of these non-rated or poorly rated (ISO) communities before anyone steps up and tries to do anything about it.

Sad but probably true.

[Bnechis 3,961]

It'll take some kind of tragedy in one of these non-rated or poorly rated (ISO) communities before anyone steps up and tries to do anything about it. Sad but probably true.

I dont think even that will do it. The majority of those depts that score that way dont know any better, the communities dont know any better and they will all claim it was a tragety that nothing couldhave been done to prevent it. and will continue on as if nothing ever happened.

Not having hydrants is the excuse that 99% of the ISO 9 depts use, but there are non-hydranted depts that rate a 4. Thats the difference between a passing grade in school (60-69%) vs. (10-19% on an open book test for an ISO 9).

[Guest]

Just an observation about the Hasidim from both KJ, New Square and Kaser. It is a matter of public record (http://www.co.rockland.ny.us/BOE/raceresults.htm) that they vote in BLOCKS. For those that don’t know, these crooked politicians go to the head rabbi and promise whatever they think will garner their vote. The rabbi then tells all of his followers who to vote for. This is never questioned by the community and the election results are guaranteed. So knowing population figures for these communities, a politician can look at the raw numbers and decide who he needs to court in order to prevail over the general population. As I said these people never go against the rabbi’s directive. There is no independent thinking and they blindly follow directions like Lemmings. Added to the problem of the block vote is voter apathy which leads the average citizen to feel that his vote is pointless.

[moggie6 54]

First off congrats to KJ for stepping out on their own! The residents of Kiryas Joel have a right to provide fire protection as they see fit.....just like the rest of the state of new york does. Good luck and I hope you all are safe down in Kiryas Joel!

[Bnechis 3,961]

First off congrats to KJ for stepping out on their own! The residents of Kiryas Joel have a right to provide fire protection as they see fit.....just like the rest of the state of new york does.

Thats right, the residence have the right to under manned, under trained, under experienced, over taxed, and over equipped service like everyone else in NYS.

[moggie6 54]

Thats just what I was thinking!!!

[AndyC3J 190]

I'd hardly call them "over equipped".....unless they've gotten a ton of new stuff in the last few weeks.

[Guest]

This is sick that this poor community has to suffer due to the will of their patriarchs. Although I have never personally interacted with a 100% KJ or Hatzolah crew I must judge from the Hatzolah Medics Ive met on the commercial side, If their FD ops are anything like their ambulance's thank God they're religous because God's the only one who can save them.

[27east 19]

Who is the police coverage for KJ?

[INIT915 1,119]

Who is the police coverage for KJ?

NYSP - Monroe Barracks

[exmrvfc 0]

Barry,

You beat me to the punch on the ISO. According to the ISO guide, the recognized Fire department providing protection to Kiryas Joel is Monroe at a class 4. It will be interesting to see if anyone notifies ISO of the change in Fire Protection and does it have any effect on the class.

It's just like Rye Brook and Port Chester all over again. And that didn't go to well.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Why do we put any REAL stock in ISO? It has an impact on business owners insurance rates, that's about it. Any idea that it is an accurate measure of a fire departments capability is false, with little exception.

[AFS1970 504]

There was an article on [another fire website] a few years back about a major insurance co, I think it was State Farm, no longer using the ISO rating. Instead they went to a system that averages the actual fire loss by ZIP Code. They felt this was a better representation of what drove insurance costs in a community.

I am somewhat skeptical of ISO, only having been a member when the last ISO inspection came to town. I wasn't directly involved with the process except with record keeping. Some of the stories I heard about out of date equipment being worth points and newer equipment not being on the list was frightening. As were some of the ways that I heard the Inspectors were telling departments how to get points.

Unfortunately ISO rating is important to our departments and our communities, so we put up with the system. It does make you wonder how these 8, 9 & 10's haven't mannaged to squeeze out a higher rating. It also makes me wonder why there is even an 8B, either a department is an 8 or a 9. IF you are going to add intermediate ranks, lets make all 26 and keeps the truth really obscured.

[TRUCK6018 50]

Why do we put any REAL stock in ISO? It has an impact on business owners insurance rates, that's about it.

This isn't entirely true, when I was chief I had to field numerous calls from homeowners and insurance agents regarding the districts ISO rating.

I think you are talking about the spread sheet they provide with the various commercial/industrial structures in a given area.

There was an article on [another fire website] a few years back about a major insurance co, I think it was State Farm, no longer using the ISO rating. Instead they went to a system that averages the actual fire loss by ZIP Code. They felt this was a better representation of what drove insurance costs in a community.

You are correct on it being State Farm. SF has had their own rating schedule for quite some time. I don't know any of the specifics on it so I can't say if it would be more accurate or not.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Why do we put any REAL stock in ISO? It has an impact on business owners insurance rates, that's about it. Any idea that it is an accurate measure of a fire departments capability is false, with little exception.

It impacts all property insurance rates. commercial, residential, stock (as in all the stuff filling a biz.), renters and crop insurance. Its worth millions. In NR the city proposed cutting an engine and laying off 16 ff's in the 1990's. This was done to save $1 m. We showed that that was poor politics in an election year since it would increase commercial rates 16% and residetial 8% a total of $12m (not including renters and stock). Funny how they found the money.

It may not be an effetive or accurate measure of an FD. But it is the only thing that has $$$$ tied to it. The Politicians care more about $$$ than the FD and it gives us a tool to fight for what we need.

Also there was a fire executive study (NFA) that compared ISO ratings to civilian fire deaths & injuries and they found the better the rating the lower the inj/death rate. This is probably not due to the actual rating, but due to the communities commitment to haveing a 1st rate dept and water supply.

[Bnechis 3,961]

There was an article on [another fire website] a few years back about a major insurance co, I think it was State Farm, no longer using the ISO rating. Instead they went to a system that averages the actual fire loss by ZIP Code. They felt this was a better representation of what drove insurance costs in a community.

They were only allowed to impliment that in about 6 states and NYS was not one of them. The State Insurance Commisioner would not allow it. Also Allstate dropped ISO in a couple of states, then after finding that there system cost more, dropped it and went back to ISO.

The real issue for an insurance company is 1) how acurate is any system in determining the fire loss and 2) what they have to pay for that data. ISO charges the insurance companies for the rating. Also averaging only works when you have a very large base (i.e. NYC, which a bad years loss is about the same as a good year, just because of total # of fires). As an example, In a community that has 5 working fires and total loss of $1m as an average per year, over the last 3 years, then this year has the same, plus burns down the local_______ (school, wallmart, factory...etc.) that was worth $10m now has a 4 year average of $3.5m thats higher than the last 3 years combined.

I am somewhat skeptical of ISO, only having been a member when the last ISO inspection came to town. I wasn't directly involved with the process except with record keeping. Some of the stories I heard about out of date equipment being worth points and newer equipment not being on the list was frightening. As were some of the ways that I heard the Inspectors were telling departments how to get points.

Part of the problem is that the state regulates this and the state has only authorized an equipment list from 1980. This does not proclude depts from using new gear for poins, but you need to know how.

Unfortunately ISO rating is important to our departments and our communities, so we put up with the system. It does make you wonder how these 8, 9 & 10's haven't mannaged to squeeze out a higher rating. It also makes me wonder why there is even an 8B, either a department is an 8 or a 9. IF you are going to add intermediate ranks, lets make all 26 and keeps the truth really obscured.

This system was here long any of us (Its over 100 y/o) and its tied to $$$$. USE IT to get what you need.

In my experience, most depts with 8, 9, 10 either dont want to deal with ISO, because they don't understand it or because they dont want anyone "telling us what to do".

The only excuse for not having a better rating is failing to try.

The 8b is a residential only rating and I can not think of a single dept with a 9 that could not improve to an 8b with less than 1 days worth of work and save every residential property 8% per year for the next 15 years.

Basically you get the 8b if you own a tanker....how many ruarl depts dont own one?