2 in / 2 out

[robert benz 344]

I am moving this thread away from where it was

ok here is the scenerio,

full dept response for a structure fire (whatever it is for your dept)

1st due engine on scene with 1 officer, 1 mpo, 2 FF's and the chief shows up alone 5 total personal. NO DELAY FOR YOU AND THE CHIEF.

rest of apparatus delayed for whatever reason

homeowner states face to face with you, the company officer " no other people in house, I was cooking and bla bla bla my kitchen caught on fire and I called 911"

chief orders a line stretched into structure, you as company officer know that there is an osha standard about 2 in and 2 out before making entry in an IDLH.

MPO cant be part of 2 out as he is running the pumps, Chief is IC so he is n/a also.

HERE IS THE QUESTION, DO YOU GO IN AND ATTACK THE FIRE OR DO YOU TELL THE CHIEF SORRY CANT GO IN UNTIL WE HAVE MORE PERSONAL ON THE SCENE?

NOW REMEMBER WHEN YOU ANSWER, YOU CANT PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH STRUCTURES YOU WILL AND WONT ENTER, EVEN IF IT IS YOUR HOUSE.

[x129K 1,393]

I am going in, regardless.

[CPAGE 2]

The chief (I/C) can make the command mobil and not place himself in front of the building at this point you would have co office and the I/C as your 2 man team. I do not know of a chief that would sit outside if a member was to go down. With that said the 2 in 2 out rule would be followed. I would not want to stay outside with a kitchen fire that could be knocked down some what fast with one line, If you would wait for added manpower to arrive that somewhat small kitchen fire would now be a larger fire.

I think most of us would go get the fire if we only had 3 guys on the scene wet the line and go get it. Then have the guys who missed the work smell your coat when you get back to quarters.

Just my 2 cents.

Chris

Edited July 24, 2008 by CPAGE

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Good topic Bobby!

I say entry can be made in this instance the IC isn't "n/a". The IC while not sound can pass command to the MPO or remain in command function as serve as the 2nd out. I'd keep 1 FF within voice distance outside and w/ a 2nd charged line and take the additional FF in to extinguish the fire.

From OSHA 1910.134Note 1 to paragraph (g): One of the two individuals located outside the IDLH atmosphere may be assigned to an additional role, such as incident commander in charge of the emergency or safety officer, so long as this individual is able to perform assistance or rescue activities without jeopardizing the safety or health of any firefighter working at the incident.

Now this could be interpreted many ways...but my decision on to stretch and be aggressive or try to extinguish without putting the attack crew in serious jeopardy would be based on size up.

A second thought that comes to mind is if its a room and content if you want to stick to 2 in 2 out specifically is trying to reach it from the outside through a window or indirect fire attack although this is risky.

[firemoose827 324]

Excellent topic Captain, and I agree with ALS. The IC can be considered one of the "2 out", but as a firefighter I usually dont even think about the 2/2 rule, I think about the people and their possessions, which is bad I know, but with todays manpower issues its really difficult. If we followed that rule to the "T" than a lot of houses would burn and a lot more people would die.

I would ultimately do what my IC tells me to do unless its grossly negligent and will hurt or kill me or my partner, like telling me to vent the roof when its obviously sagging bad and about to collapse. The IC is IC because he/she has the training the experience and knowledge to tell me what to do, and I will never question their judgement unless its like I mentioned.

2/2 is a tough issue and Im intrigued to see what transpires here in this discussion!! lol

[abaduck 123]

1. I'd want a more through sizeup of structure, construction, weather - risk of it all going pear-shaped. (I'm thinking of latest very lightweight frame houses, vinyl siding, howling wind from the involved side - how much can you save, and how much will you risk?)

2. Structure fire? Own rigs delayed? Definitely time for mutual aid!

3. If the IC is in full PPE and ready to go I can't see why they couldn't function as one half of the 'two out' in this situation. Or perhaps the IC could take over from the engineer on the pump, and send the engineer in with the 2nd FF if required - I don't know if ICS allows for this, but perhaps it makes more sense - easier to maintain communications and the 'big picture' from that position.

4. Indirect attack through the window, Tom? Does the homeowner remember closing the kitchen door?!

5. I'm not long out of probation so take everything with a large pinch of salt.

Mike

[lad12derff 283]

I am moving this thread away from where it was

ok here is the scenerio,

full dept response for a structure fire (whatever it is for your dept)

1st due engine on scene with 1 officer, 1 mpo, 2 FF's and the chief shows up alone 5 total personal. NO DELAY FOR YOU AND THE CHIEF.

rest of apparatus delayed for whatever reason

homeowner states face to face with you, the company officer " no other people in house, I was cooking and bla bla bla my kitchen caught on fire and I called 911"

chief orders a line stretched into structure, you as company officer know that there is an osha standard about 2 in and 2 out before making entry in an IDLH.

MPO cant be part of 2 out as he is running the pumps, Chief is IC so he is n/a also.

HERE IS THE QUESTION, DO YOU GO IN AND ATTACK THE FIRE OR DO YOU TELL THE CHIEF SORRY CANT GO IN UNTIL WE HAVE MORE PERSONAL ON THE SCENE?

NOW REMEMBER WHEN YOU ANSWER, YOU CANT PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH STRUCTURES YOU WILL AND WONT ENTER, EVEN IF IT IS YOUR HOUSE.

Is Ernie the first due officer?

[antiquefirelt 994]

Good topic.

First, with 5 onscene including the IC, the Co. Officer and one firefighter could enter while the MPO and other firefighter remain outside with full PPE as the 2 out. This allows you to be covered without the IC being part of the 2 out. As noted the standard does not disallow the IC from being part of the 2 out. In a single entry crew evolution I don't see a problem with the IC being part of the two out. While not ideal, the worst thing that the IC needs to command is the interior forces, and if they're in trouble and he has to help, what else will can to hell? Nothing of nearly the same consequence. Multiple companies working would be a different story.

[robert benz 344]

In case those reading this didnt see my post on the other forum, I would be inside before the chief had the chance to tell me one way or the other (at least I hope) I was under the impression that the IC had his job to do and couldnt get involved in the 2 out I guess I was wrong on that part of my scenerio,

Also I would like to have a 3 man entry team:

a) to make the stretch easier

so I would'nt have to be the backup FF if I am the officer (we all know what happens in the real world everyday w/ a 3 man engine or truck co, officer works as a ff instead of a boss)

c)most fires are extinguished with either 100 gallons of water or a 100,000 gallons when there is a delay in putting water on the fire. 3 members can can a line into operation much faster than 2 all things being equal.

[ny10570 745]

Knowing that my back-up is delayed I'd still go in, just be more cautious in my attack. Instead of an aggressive interior attack go with a defensive attack. 2 1/2" line stay outside the fire room and try and keep the fire in check. Once more manpower is in place you can make the push to knock it down.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Good topic.

First, with 5 onscene including the IC, the Co. Officer and one firefighter could enter while the MPO and other firefighter remain outside with full PPE as the 2 out. This allows you to be covered without the IC being part of the 2 out.

I believe that it isn't OSHA that states the following, but ICS.

The IC may remain as part of the 2 out, but the MPO may not. Anyone care to know for sure, and if not please correct me??

Also, the only time that is legit to enter without the 2 out being staffed, is when in the professional opinion of the IC there may still be viable life in the structure, and by the team of 2 entering, they have a chance to rescue that victim. After that, the very next 2 qualified personnel MUST staff the 2 out positions.

At the conclusion of the incident, a hearing must be held to review the actions taken.

Again, anyone care to correct me?

[helicopper 1,050]

I believe that it isn't OSHA that states the following, but ICS.

The IC may remain as part of the 2 out, but the MPO may not. Anyone care to know for sure, and if not please correct me??

Also, the only time that is legit to enter without the 2 out being staffed, is when in the professional opinion of the IC there may still be viable life in the structure, and by the team of 2 entering, they have a chance to rescue that victim. After that, the very next 2 qualified personnel MUST staff the 2 out positions.

At the conclusion of the incident, a hearing must be held to review the actions taken.

Again, anyone care to correct me?

ICS is the management process used on a fireground. It does not set any regulations or standards for staffing or deployment.

[exmrvfc 0]

Bob,

What the decision comes down to is "your" interpertation of the OSHA statute. As noted above, the MPO or IC can act as one of the two stand by FF's if they are in full PPE AND if the job they are doing does not endanger the other personel if they were to leave their job to perform a rescue of fallen firefighter. This is where the interpretation comes into play. An argument can be made that a engine without an MPO could endanger the guys on the knob if there was a loss in pressure, the tank water runs out or any other problem that might have been prevented by the MPO being there. The same can be said for the IC. If the job goes bad in a hurry and people need to be rescued, who is commanding the rescue, calling in additional resources, etc. The MPO is probably way to busy and/or stressed with his own duties to handle this especially difficult task that would be handled by the IC. For those that are quoting ICS, OSHA or PESH in NY, is what mandates this and carries the full weight of the Law. Following OSHA is manadatory and is punishable by fine. ICS is a standard that can be cited as an example in Civil Court when the fallen firefighter sues the department and municipality.

With all that being said, A chief has issued an order. The way I was taught, you have to obey the order and bring it up after the fire whether it is by grievance from the union or the fire council for Volunteers. Personally, I think you need six minimum as the MPO and IC need to their jobs.

[firecapt32 282]

Capt Benz the blues arent running huh?? excellent questions and responses but lets turn it around one time. What about a IC the adhears to the 2in/2out and stops you at the door and tell you to wait till there is sufficent manpower??

does it work both ways?

[helicopper 1,050]

ICS is a standard that can be cited as an example in Civil Court when the fallen firefighter sues the department and municipality.

Just curious, how would ICS be used as a standard to be cited in a civil suit?

[abaduck 123]

Capt Benz the blues arent running huh?? excellent questions and responses but lets turn it around one time. What about a IC the adhears to the 2in/2out and stops you at the door and tell you to wait till there is sufficent manpower??

If the Chief decides not to commit men inside until additional resources are on scene... you obey orders. He's got the experience to make those calls, the authority to give the orders, and the responsibility to be held accountable for the outcome. That's what the white hat is for.

Mike

[robert benz 344]

Capt Benz the blues arent running huh?? excellent questions and responses but lets turn it around one time. What about a IC the adhears to the 2in/2out and stops you at the door and tell you to wait till there is sufficent manpower??

does it work both ways?

I was looking for both sides of it and yup, you may not like it in fact if you dont put up a a couple of WTF!!! you arent much of a firefighter in the first place BUT YOU OBEY THE ORDER AND STAY OUTSIDE

[antiquefirelt 994]

Just curious, how would ICS be used as a standard to be cited in a civil suit?

While not "law" many standards such as ICS and a very large part of NFPA stuff can be used in court to show that a national consensus of "experts" agrees that this the standard is a valid way of conducting an operation or other action. This means that while you may not have violated a law criminally, you could be found guilty of negligence if a member was hurt or killed. Said negligence could put you on the hook for civil penalties.

As for the scenario: send 2 FFers and the CO in, with the IC and MPO as the 2 out until further units arrive. If something happens to the inside crew, what is the MPO doing on a single line fire that he can't drop? What about the IC? Delaying the initial stretch will raise the probabilities that firefighters entering at a later point will experience a negative event, as the fire grows and the structure weakens.

And I agree with Benz, there'd be some ruffled feathers and raised eyebrows, but an order is an order. Ask the guys in Worcester how many more brother's might have perished if the DC hadn't stopped further rescue attempts. Got to be the hardest order he's ever had to give.

Edited July 24, 2008 by antiquefirelt

[FFPCogs 863]

To the original post:

I'm in ..we don't know for sure if there's anyone in there or not. I treat every fire as if there may people trapped until I know for sure otherwise. The sooner the wet stuff hits the red stuff the better off we all are, FFs and potential victims alike. I'll take my chances defending my decision with the higher ups.

Just my $.02

But as I've said before I'm a dinosaur

As for being ordered flat out not to make entry...well that's the order, and the IC's the boss.

Cogs

Edited July 24, 2008 by FFPCogs

[robert benz 344]

To the original post:

I'm in ..we don't know for sure if there's anyone in there or not. I treat every fire as if there may people trapped until I know for sure otherwise. The sooner the wet stuff hits the red stuff the better off we all are, FFs and potential victims alike. I'll take my chances defending my decision with the higher ups.

Just my $.02

But as I've said before I'm a dinosaur

As for being ordered flat out not to make entry...well that's the order, and the IC's the boss.

Cogs

I made it so the homeowner told you to your face that the house was not occupied otherwise it is a no brainer for most of us. But I was looking for and got the other side. I worked with a FF who got promoted back in the 80's, went to FLSTP school, and all he got out of a month of training was "I need to have a million dollar rider (insurance policy), because I can be sued for anything I do as an officer".

[Bnechis 3,961]

The IC is IC because he/she has the training the experience and knowledge to tell me what to do, and I will never question their judgement unless its like I mentioned.

In some departments, the IC is the IC because he got more rounds at the bar and has less training and experience than others who "rock" the boat

[FFPCogs 863]

Robert,

I got that, and no offense here, but I was always taught and still believe that while homeowner info may be correct, people in stressful situations can and do make mistakes. What if little Sarah came home and went straight to her room or any number of other variables. Searches still have to be conducted ect..and like I said the sooner we get water on the fire the better.

I'm all for standards as guidelines...and in most circumstances they are applicable. But when the "unusual" arises so must we to mitigate the scene asap..at least to me. But like I said I'm a dinosaur. I come from a tradition of aggressive interior FFing and right or wrong I (and most FFs I know) still adhere to this "style"

There are other factors too..such as level of involvement. exposures and so on in which your experience should help determine any decision you make.

Again, not looking to debate or correct anyone..just my $.02 Great topic by the way.

Cogs

CYA, insurance, litigation, standards, OSHA and so on. Sometimes it seems that next it will be no firefighters in a burning building at all. Just stand outside and lob water. That's the day I hang up my helmet, if God forbid I live that long.

Edited July 25, 2008 by FFPCogs

[Guest]

Is Ernie the first due officer?

No its a Rende as an 'acting'! I would still go in!

[lad12derff 283]

No its a Rende as an 'acting'! I would still go in!

PRICELESS

[lad12derff 283]

It is not really going to matter what anyone does until FF so and so's wife is suing the officer, city, homeowner, and anyone else involved if her husband dies and we did not follow 2 in and 2 out. The fire service will always do what "we deem right" because that is who we are. Poor manning levels, old school firefighting, poor equiptment. We will always dig in for the fight until it bites us in the a**. It really is a tough question to answer without being on the spot. There are still things that need to be done at the fire scene that don't include stretching into the building. Scene size up, ladder placement, secure a water source, bring a line to the door, vent some windows. You can still go to work while companies are still coming in and to the public you are not standing around doing nothing. We the fire service (I am talking to the paid side) did not create the poor manning levels and create the 2 in and 2 out rule. If the public does not want enough firefighters on the rigs so be it. They won't understand until their house is on fire.

[JFLYNN 681]

I am moving this thread away from where it was

ok here is the scenerio,

full dept response for a structure fire (whatever it is for your dept)

1st due engine on scene with 1 officer, 1 mpo, 2 FF's and the chief shows up alone 5 total personal. NO DELAY FOR YOU AND THE CHIEF.

rest of apparatus delayed for whatever reason

homeowner states face to face with you, the company officer " no other people in house, I was cooking and bla bla bla my kitchen caught on fire and I called 911"

chief orders a line stretched into structure, you as company officer know that there is an osha standard about 2 in and 2 out before making entry in an IDLH.

MPO cant be part of 2 out as he is running the pumps, Chief is IC so he is n/a also.

HERE IS THE QUESTION, DO YOU GO IN AND ATTACK THE FIRE OR DO YOU TELL THE CHIEF SORRY CANT GO IN UNTIL WE HAVE MORE PERSONAL ON THE SCENE?

NOW REMEMBER WHEN YOU ANSWER, YOU CANT PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH STRUCTURES YOU WILL AND WONT ENTER, EVEN IF IT IS YOUR HOUSE.

Bobby, wish there were more guys like you around...

good question to stimulate some discussion (although some of the discussion so far has been scary- SOME OF YOU GUYS NEED TO GET OFF THESE WEBSITES AND INTO THE TEXTBOOKS)

...my answer = .......wait, you know what my answer would be...

QTIP

[Raz 14]

In some departments, the IC is the IC because he got more rounds at the bar and has less training and experience than others who "rock" the boat

This is definitely true, but let's also add that some IC's are only IC's because nobody ran against them. I've said a million times that electing officers is wrong, but can you even call it an "election" when there's only one name on the ballot?

[firemoose827 324]

In some departments, the IC is the IC because he got more rounds at the bar and has less training and experience than others who "rock" the boat

This is definitely true, but let's also add that some IC's are only IC's because nobody ran against them. I've said a million times that electing officers is wrong, but can you even call it an "election" when there's only one name on the ballot?

AMEN to that!!!! Thats how it is here, you get elected ONLY because you are in the "CLick" and buy the most beers at the "Station 2" across the street. No one cares about training, experience, and years in the service....Its all about whos going to make it easier for the department and not force a bunch of stuff on ya. SORRY, but this ticks me off!!! LOL You cant find a dept that elects "Qualified" people for officer any more, its now "Popularity Contests".

[791075 34]

Cap, the answer to this can only be to do the right thing and stretch in. This persons house is on fire and it is never 100% sure that nobody is in the house until a search has been completed. Besides the black eye on th FD's reputation in the publics eye, the fact is that the IC ordered the line stretched. In my opinion it is time to cowboy up and do our job. If its my decision, I'm going in. Its gut check time. Not every scenario is completley safe, if you want that, be an accountant. Tactically- fire doesnt get better unless we act. As for the 2 in 2 out rule, save that argument for the union meetings. I know I took an oath when I got hired, I just think occasionally we forget that and what this job is really all about.

[Bnechis 3,961]

This is definitely true, but let's also add that some IC's are only IC's because nobody ran against them. I've said a million times that electing officers is wrong, but can you even call it an "election" when there's only one name on the ballot?

Comrade..... Stalin said it was an election, even if only he was on the ballot.