Fire Union Criticize New FDNY Dispatch System

[RWC130 594]

Report: Unions Criticize New FDNY Dispatch System

July 23, 2008

NEW YORK -- Union officials are opposing the new fire department dispatch system, saying the added rush to fires is putting public safety at risk – even as response time improved, according to a published report.

Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta said the simple change in June – emergency dispatchers sending out trucks as soon as they determine the address and nature of the fire, rather than waiting for more information as they had in the past – has led to the sharpest improvement in response time since 2002, when he took office, according to the New York Sun.

http://www.wnbc.com/news/16966451/detail.html

[Remember585 815]

Isn't that how most Police Departments send out their FD's now? For that matter, it is pretty close to how we do it at 60 Control too. The E911 system gives you the address, we just verify it and get the call type. Of course, with cellular and 3rd party stuff it takes a little longer, but this is basically how most fire-type calls go:

"911, what is the address of your emergency?"

"109 EMTBravo Lane"

"What is your emergency?"

"My house is on fire."

"What exactly is on fire?"

"My f***ing house, send the f***ing Fire Department!!!!"

"OK. I am sending the FD, get everyone outside!"

And, since we (60) have more then one dispatcher on at a time, I could ask that, have it in the CAD for someone to dispatch, and obtain additional info, if it is warranted and/or safe to do so.

Edited July 25, 2008 by Remember585

[RWC130 594]

Sorry Sir, I don't show "f***ing Fire Department" in my CAD,

Please stay on the line while I transfer you! lol

[houlidsa 76]

We may get out the door faster but. When you have a crew seated in a spare rig with four guys facing backwards all yelling so what is it? What do? For that matter facing whichever way. It stinks. Instead of a guy at the watch who will do any thing in his power to communicate clearly the info, we can get with marbles in the mouth, crap radios, or delayed info. All of these lead to confusing puzzle no matter whom great each piece is. This type of dispatch also delays any CIDs info.

[JBE 328]

OK, since I'm the one who has to supervise with this new system, let me explain the old way, and the "new and improved" Uncle Nicky way.(SARCASM!!!!)

Prior to February of this year, we would interrogate the caller as such:

I'm paraphrasing

What's the address??

What streets are on the corners??

What's wrong??

What apartment, what floor??

What's your phone number??

FD is on the way...release the incident into CAD

Then the "Pre-release" program

What's the address??(get address, hit enter, cross streets displayed)

Pre-release to CAD and the decision dispatcher and turn out a structural assignment.

Get the rest of the information and release into CAD

Announce the alarm and then turn around non necessary units.

This is where the complaints started coming in from the uniformed guys.

It was modified into what it is now.

Address, (Enter and cross streets displayed)

What's the problem?? (and mark appropriate code for fire, emergency, and what type of response)

Pre-release into CAD

Ask for cross streets

Ask for phone number

FD is on the way, release into CAD

Now, I have had a number of instances where the run was pre released, units were responding, and it turned out to be the wrong address because the cross streets were not verified prior to turning companies out. Any FDNY Alarm Receipt Dispatcher worth their salt can properly process an alarm in the old way of doing it in less than 45 seconds. The problem HQ was having was with processing times and response times combined. How long it took us to process an alarm and get a unit on scene. Instead of enforcing existing criteria, and taking any anomaly of alarm processing on a case by case basis, this broad, poorly conceived plan has been implemented. What it also boils down to is that in certain areas of the city, fire protection is not adequate enough. Simply put, not enough companies. Some of you may have heard about an incident in the Bronx a few months ago where there was a delay in sending the appropriate first due units to a structural fire, and the 3rd and 4th due went in 1st and 2nd due. It turned out to be a job. There was a glitch in the computer that we didn't know about and were not told about. The hierarchy at HQ blamed the dispatchers, and said that it was human error. It wasn't. HQ also said we were trained in how to do this. We weren't. We were handed a sheet of paper that said, You will do this... and that was it. Just to answer the previous post, CIDS comes out on your tickets if the address you're going to has CIDS. If there is an address three doors down in either direction, we will know, and if we get numerous calls, reporting one of those addresses, we will relay the CIDS either over the radio, or to the BC responding via MDT.

Has this system improved total response times?? Yes, I'm not going to deny that. But, with the way it is now, it's only a matter of time before something gets messed up and an accident involving apparatus occurs.

My personal feeling was that prior to February, we had 2 minutes from the time we opened up an alarm screen and started the clock, that if there was an issue with the alarm processing, it had to be dealt with on a case by case basis. I felt this way because of so many variables we have to deal with. Thick accents, people giving incorrect addresses, or giving intersections as addresses.

Example: Where's the fire?? 145 Lincoln Avenue. Interrogate for cross streets, and the person is panicky and just says yes. Turns out the fire is on East 145th street and Lincoln Avenue. And not 145 Lincoln Avenue, which is down in the 130's.

Example number 2, and it amazes me how I see this one all the time: 2475 West 144th Street, 8th Avenue. What they really mean is 2475 8th Avenue off of 144th Street.

Some of these common problems were not, imo, taken into consideration. the system in place now is only good for reducing total response times, and doesn't necessarily address the bigger problem.

Soapbox 10-9.

Edited July 25, 2008 by JBE

[dadbo46 50]

Jimmy, thanx for the explanation.

I could not undersatnd either side of the issue. Your explanation cleared up the confusion on my part.

[JBE 328]

Now that I've explained it, I just read the story. The mayors spokesperson calls it an innovation. Innovation, my lily white keister. This pre release "innovation" has been in place since the Starfire CAD was put into place nearly 30 years ago. When I came on the job in 1997, I was taught how to use it, but only to be used in rare circumstances. In 1998, or 99, we were told to stop using it because of a glitch in the system.

Now, since the city doesn't want to pony up the money to open a few fire companies in places that could use them, like Queens(especially Southeast Queens) and Staten Island(Engine 168, anyone??), they order my brass to make us use a system that is still flawed. Thank heaven for term limits. By the way, the City Councilman from Queens NAILED it. You throw in an accent, and a confusion of a street name or number, like 71st lane, 71st drive, 71st avenue, 71st street. Guess who is gonna hang when the wrong address gets turned out, and the actual address is a job with numerous 10-45's that could have possibly been saved had the first due companies not been going in a different direction or still sitting in the firehouse. Or, who is gonna hang God forbid a rig wraps up and someone gets hurt or killed?? You think the bosses downtown?? The 2 and 3 star chiefs?? Nope. Try me, my colleagues, along with a boss and chauffer of a company.

Edited July 26, 2008 by JBE

[Guest]

The guy who is gonna get hung out to dry in an apparatus accident is the guy driving, we all know that. And being as the new policy was originally going to just generate an address and no reason, guys WILL NOT get in the rig and drive recklessly for no reason at all. Now everyone on the street has a cell phone so the delay in getting the report of fire is not like it used to be where someone needed to find a box or a pay phone. That minute you save in reporting the fire makes a big difference between one room and all the rooms. Our dispatchers are the best. They only get stuck doing what they are told to do by a bunch of morons that have not been in a rig with men in years.

[JBE 328]

I think you're missing what I'm getting at. I'm trying to keep this on topic here, but if something out there happens, the first persons that get the finger pointed at them are the dispatchers. I am not in any way insinuating anyone is going to drive recklessly. I've seen it enough times in my experience. I agree that a quicker processing time may mean the difference between a one room job to a whole floor involved. Yes, we have to deal with brass whose fingers are not on the pulse of the rank and file. My whole point was, it wasn't broken in the first place, there wasn't any need to fix it.

[M' Ave 1,466]

OK, since I'm the one who has to supervise with this new system, let me explain the old way, and the "new and improved" Uncle Nicky way.(SARCASM!!!!)

This is where the complaints started coming in from the uniformed guys.

Some of you may have heard about an incident in the Bronx a few months ago where there was a delay in sending the appropriate first due units to a structural fire, and the 3rd and 4th due went in 1st and 2nd due. It turned out to be a job. There was a glitch in the computer that we didn't know about and were not told about. The hierarchy at HQ blamed the dispatchers, and said that it was human error. It wasn't. HQ also said we were trained in how to do this. We weren't. We were handed a sheet of paper that said, You will do this... and that was it. Just to answer the previous post, CIDS comes out on your tickets if the address you're going to has CIDS. If there is an address three doors down in either direction, we will know, and if we get numerous calls, reporting one of those addresses, we will relay the CIDS either over the radio, or to the BC responding via MDT.

Boy, the brothers on Seneca were pissed.....you won't find any fans of the new dispatch policy there. I don't think anyone in the ranks finds fault anywhere but with the bean counters. It's a crime that they tried to put that on the D.D. or whomever.

What's the thoughts on BARB where you guys sit? Because my company lost and gained first due boxes with NO rhyme or reason!! Lost some around the corner and gained a few 5 avenues away. Seems crazy to me!

[Guest aussiegeorge]

I think you're missing what I'm getting at. I'm trying to keep this on topic here, but if something out there happens, the first persons that get the finger pointed at them are the dispatchers. I am not in any way insinuating anyone is going to drive recklessly. I've seen it enough times in my experience. I agree that a quicker processing time may mean the difference between a one room job to a whole floor involved. Yes, we have to deal with brass whose fingers are not on the pulse of the rank and file. My whole point was, it wasn't broken in the first place, there wasn't any need to fix it.

don't you have 911 caller id for the location of where the caller is phoneing from, or gps location on where the cell phone call is being made.

[DR104 141]

All I see in this article is Nicholas Scoppetta patting himself on the back about how "He" got the response time down and not giving any credit to the dispatchers(I could only imagine how hard and crazy of a job that is in NYC. Thank god for you guys!!) and the firefighters. Also didn't the union try to use the response time argument when Scoppetta and the City started to close firehouses? Looks likes Scoppetta is trying to justified his case.

Edited August 18, 2008 by DR104

[JBE 328]

The City only shut down one firehouse in Queens, and none in the Bronx. I was reading the BARB program and all I can tell you guys in the field is appeal the hell out of them.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Staten Island appealed the hell out of Barb, and the city reversed only one of their appeals. Seems like they want this system and thats that.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Remember, this is NYC.....every other FD in the country preaches respond safely, not Bloomberg and Scopetta. Respond faster or else the transfers begin. I had the pleasure of sitting in with the PD 911 dispatchers one night. If the call came from a house phone, the address normally came right up, a cell phone within a few minutes. Like JBE stated , throw in heavy accents, panic/confusion/adrenaline into the mix with some people who do not even know their proper address its total choas. I have locked up enough people who state their address is at St Nicholas and West 163 st. After a few questions you often find out that they live on say West 164 st, but get off at 163 st on the 'C' train. They often only know the major intersection near their residence.

Edited August 18, 2008 by grumpyff

[Mac8146 61]

I hope some changes can be made to the bronx BARB, some locations that have been changed are ridiculous. My hope is someone really reads requests for change and gets them done. Seems like they look at a map and pick closest on paper without routes being considered. Many companies are appealing but we shall see.