Tiller, Tower Ladder, Rear Mount, Mid-Mount, etc.

[huzzie59 75]

What are the advantages and disadvantages to the use of each of these apparatus?

In areas that have more than one type of truck, what dictates the responce of each?

[Raz 14]

-Tillers allow for longer aerial devices to have better manueverability in tight spots. Though advances in techonology have made them further and further obsolete, larger cities with narrow streets still field a few of them.

-Tower Ladders allow for safer rescues and ventilation efforts by giving firefighters a platform to work off of. It's much easier transporting a victim in a bucket than it is carrying them down 30-90 feet of ladder rungs. The bucket also can be tilted to allow roof cuts to be made from the relative safe haven of the bucket, compared to climbing out onto a roof ladder that's dependant on the structure's integrity.

-Straight sticks offer greater dexterity than tower ladders, as the ladder requires less clearence at the tip.

-Mid-Mounts require less thought when positioning the apparatus on the street. The fact that the aerial can operate in any direction equally, means that it doesn't matter if you nose in or back into a spot. That said, a Rear-Mount will give you more ladder for your buck if you can position it properly (which is impossible in some spots, despite how good your operator is).

As for the response, I'm just a firefighter, so that's above my paygrade.

Edited July 23, 2008 by Raz

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Thats not really true of tillers, there are many departments going back to the use of tillers that once used them, Philly is almost all tillers for truck companies, as well as a few getting a tiller for the first time and combining 2 units into one with all the storage posibilities, Eden Fire Company in lancaster Pa. for one, did away with their Heavy rescue and replaced their old Ladder with a TruCQue. CA. has been running the quint tiller for some time now with much success. If you have the manpower and Chauff's to run one its the best straight stick choice.

Edited July 23, 2008 by spin_the_wheel

[huzzie59 75]

I saw a FDNY tiller on Bronx River Road yesterday and it made me wonder about the various types of aerials available. NYC has a good variety and I wonder what the criteria is for assigning which type of truck to which area.

[mfc2257 464]

I prefer to work off of a straight stick because it is the most unencumbered way to get the job done... On that note the following is an unsolicited diatribe on truck companies in general...... Quite possibly a thread hijacking.

The tower ladder has become a crutch for many departments in recent years. The theme that it is easier to rescue and cut from a bucket has pushed so many departments that would ordinarily operate very well with a straight stick into purchasing a tower ladder.

Trends in the fire service seem to control departments much more than demographics. For example, Chappaqua purchased a tower ladder, when in reality a rear mount quint would have worked great.... I'm not really sure why they needed a bucket. Yorktown on the other hand made a great choice with the purchase of their new straight stick.... I'm not really sure why Millwood (my home department) is purchasing a new aerial device at all.

In the NY Metro area (outside of NYC) tillers aren't very popular. In the Mid-Atlantic states however tillers are EVERYWHERE. They provide a ton of maneuverability both in tight streets and in traffic, they have a ton of compartmentalization, AND they are a mid mount design that allows the ultimate in apparatus positioning.

In the end however departments need to look at exactly what the demands of their district are. Too many aerial devices are purchased based on the desire to have similar capabilities to the departments that surround your first due.... When, in actuality, the needs of the department can be met without purchasing an aerial at all.

Kudos to Katonah, Goldens Bridge, Pound Ridge, Croton Falls, Bedford, etc.... You've been doing great without a truck company thus far and there are departments in Westchester that should shed their aerials and follow your lead.... I'm not sure why Millwood, Croton, Briarcliff, Hawthorn, Valhalla, Chappaqua, Thornwood, Pleasantville, Montrose, Verplank, Yorktown, Thornwood, Tarrytown, Sleepy Hollow, Bedford Hills, Mount Kisco, Ossining, Buchanan...... Basically all the northern Westchester departments can't exist with 10 truck companies instead of 20++++. If northern Westchester had less truck companies, then their members would get more work... Thus, their members would get more experience... Experience begets expertise.... Expertise begets positive outcomes....

[Guest]

Mid mounts almost always negate the use of the front 30 degrees due to the cab. If the guy driving the tiller does not cant the rig to the side you lose even more of its effectiveness.

As for a TL or RM debate, you have a wide range of weight tolerances there. 1000lbs for a TL basket is not much, try and get an Aerial that can support that amount of weight unsupported. A TL also allows you to have a high point for rope rescues and trench jobs, RM no dice. A RM is the best for day to day fire operations, but when was the last time it was used for a fire? One must really look at what is around as far as buildings before buying one or the other.

[JRS2817 1]

how many tillers does FDNY have is there one for each borough?

[Guest]

1 Tiller in the Bx L-39

4 in Mn L's 5, 20, 40

0 in Staten Italy

8 in Bk and Qns although I think 151 is a RM as they were when I lived there 6 years ago.

101, 104, 106, 143, 151, 173, 147, 175

[antiquefirelt 994]

The tower ladder has become a crutch for many departments in recent years. The theme that it is easier to rescue and cut from a bucket has pushed so many departments that would ordinarily operate very well with a straight stick into purchasing a tower ladder.

I have to semi-disagree with you here. A TL allows for a much better platform from which to conduct many(Most) aerial operations. They offer the ability to lower victims to the ground using one firefighter vs. one firefighter per victim. They allow you to carry the roof crew and tools to the objective as a group easier than climbing single file to the 6th floor. Cutting a vent in a soft roof is much safer from the basket lip and allows for a larger cut. Venting windows and pulling trim is a breeze from a flat stable work surface vs. the rungs of a stick. The ability to work the aerial master stream from the safety of the bucket vs. the stick vastly improves the streams accuracy (not to mention the ability to manually sweep the nozzle). Not to mention being able to use the gun from the sidewalk on taxpayers.That's just some of the high points.

On the other side, a stick is generally faster to set up and can take windows without sending a FF up, they're often more maneuverable, cheaper and not as heavy. These are all very significant factors.

I would also agree that a MM is not the end all for positioning. Every truck has scrub areas and areas they can't get to. It's imperative that companies are very familiar with the proper positioning of their truck.

We bought a MM TL and love it. We're a one aerial FD but the next closest TL is 45 miles away! So ours nicely compliments the two sticks in adjoining FD (105' stick and 75' quint).

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Most of the pro's and con's that I can think of or have experienced have been covered for the most part.

MM...easier to place the turntable but as stated you lose some scrub area to the front. Also Mid mount Ladder Towers have a pretty signicant rear overhang that for where I was at caused an issue with grounding out.

Straight sticks I've spend the most time operating off of and I have to say that nothing replaces a TL for operations off of. When switching from straight stick to a Ladder Tower one of the things we took into consideration was the high percentage of senior citizens we have and that most of them are housed in mid rise to high rise buildings as one of many.

Also I have no issue with departments having aerial devices if they can operate them. Does it get a little crazy in some aspects yes...but I am a firm believer in self efficiency. Doesn't mean I totally disagree with some items on the list...when their are 3 fire districts that the equipment from 1 of them if they merged would be enough.

[weaselff 6]

1 Tiller in the Bx L-39

4 in Mn L's 5, 20, 40

0 in Staten Italy

8 in Bk and Qns although I think 151 is a RM as they were when I lived there 6 years ago.

101, 104, 106, 143, 151, 173, 147, 175

You forgot L-6 in Chinatown

[Guest]

As a member of a Ladder Co that runs two aerials (1973 Seagrave TDA & 2003 Sutphen TL) I can speak with some insight.

The TDA will go ANYWHERE a large suv will fit. It is incredably maneuverable. All of the above regarding the positioning of a midmount is accurate.

We send the TDA first to residentials and a townhouse complex with many culdesacs.

The TL is first due for commercials, the hospital, the 6 story old age home, 7 story apartment complex. The bucket is very fast and easy to setup and operate. Great for multiple windoW rescues.

[Fireman488 57]

You forgot L-6 in Chinatown

and L-34 in Washington Heights

[JBE 328]

1 Tiller in the Bx L-39

4 in Mn L's 5, 20, 40

0 in Staten Italy

8 in Bk and Qns although I think 151 is a RM as they were when I lived there 6 years ago.

101, 104, 106, 143, 151, 173, 147, 175

OK here we go.

Manhattan 5,6,20,34,40

Bronx 39

SI None

Brooklyn 101,104,106,118,147,175

Queens 143

151 and 173(sniff sniff, sob) lost their tillers about 8 yrs ago. I doubt the floor at 331/173 could support the weight anymore.

LA County is almost exclusively tillers, and LAFD is all tillers.

[JBJ1202 27]

I know District of Columbia has 14 tillers, one RM, and one TL...

JBJ

[Guest]

I beleive you could make a pro or a con for any type of ladder depending on which you like best. As far as my company we have a 75' stick and had a 100' tower prior both had its pros and cons

[Remember585 815]

Outriggers.

The #1 thing in my eyes that makes or breaks a rig's usefulness.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Outriggers.

The #1 thing in my eyes that makes or breaks a rig's usefulness.

I agree, if it doesn't have outriggers it's barely a fire truck! OK, maybe the engine guys bring the water...

What do you mean by your post? From the way I read it, if it's an E-One it's useful and all others aren't? Being that for all their other misgivings E-One has about the best jacking system on the market.

[Guest]

Outriggers.

The #1 thing in my eyes that makes or breaks a rig's usefulness.

Yes but to be more specific, the time it takes to set the outrigers and get the aerial moving is the key factor here. Any design that requires the operator to jump from one side of the truck to the other to set the jacks is a flawed system, IMO.

[Guest]

OK here we go.

Manhattan 5,6,20,34,40

Bronx 39

SI None

Brooklyn 101,104,106,118,147,175

Queens 143

151 and 173(sniff sniff, sob) lost their tillers about 8 yrs ago. I doubt the floor at 331/173 could support the weight anymore.

LA County is almost exclusively tillers, and LAFD is all tillers.

It was close to 8 years ago, as I remember seeing them both on Crescent Loop, google that street in Qns. 34 I totally blanked on as they only got their rig back a month ago. 6 was just a typo.

Tillers create a much bigger headache for the insurance company as they have the highest rate of accidents.

[ffnpfd896 0]

I have the opportunity to work with both types (TDA & TL) on a regular basis and agree with the points made so far. The only point that I would like to add is that a TDA needs 2 people to get it down the road. For the career side, this can be a pro or a con depending on what side of the coin you are on. For volunteers, some places have a hard enough time getting drivers to show up that it might never make it out the doors.

[jcoppola 52]

A tiller is being strongly consisdered for replacement of Norwalk T1. Our low bridges and tight streets in our south and east sections of town could seriously justify it. However, it is a huge training issue as we would have to train tillermen and have them get the proper DMV licensing for it. Plus the cost could approach and pass a million bucks.

We run a Sutphen/Spartan 105' aerial tower now as Truck 2 and a Spartan/RK 2-section quint as Truck 1. If the tiller is purchased, it would go into service as T2 out of Central and the "mutt" would probably go to Station 1 as T1. Dare I say, T1 is currently pretty useless and most of our guys know that and cannot wait for a "real" ladder truck to replace it.

JVC

[Guest Rogue Rescue]

In Adelaide, Australia, the city i live near there is 2 and soon to be 3 37 metre (approx 110 feet) bronto skylifts on Scania chassis. Whilst they are very good for fighting fire they are not so good for rescue so we have 5 pumpers with skyjet booms on them.

They can be seen in the below link.

http://www.fire-brigade.asn.au/Station_Dis...Station_Code=20

[x242Steve 1]

A tiller is being strongly consisdered for replacement of Norwalk T1. Our low bridges and tight streets in our south and east sections of town could seriously justify it. However, it is a huge training issue as we would have to train tillermen and have them get the proper DMV licensing for it.

Not to get off topic, but just so non-Connecticut people are aware... here's an excerpt from Connecticut DMV regulations...

Sec. 14-36a-1. Special license endorsement

Each holder of a Class D motor vehicle operator's license who operates or intends to operate any fire apparatus vehicle may apply to the commissioner for a special license endorsement, to be designated as a' 'Q" endorsement. The' 'Q" endorsement shall authorize the operation of any fire apparatus vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of over 26,001 pounds. No such endorsement shall be issued to any such person until he or she demonstrates personally to the commissioner, or to the commissioner's designee, by means of testing in a representative vehicle, as author­ized by the chief of a fire department, that he or she possesses the skills necessary to operate such fire apparatus vehicle.

[on the job 68]

What are the advantages and disadvantages to the use of each of these apparatus?

In areas that have more than one type of truck, what dictates the responce of each?

There is advantages and disadvantages on all the "TRUCKS" out there because each fire is different and each building is different, you need to spec out the truck that will work for you and your district.

[Danger 160]

There is advantages and disadvantages on all the "TRUCKS" out there because each fire is different and each building is different, you need to spec out the truck that will work for you and your district.

Right, anything but a yellow Sutphen

[Guest]

<br />Right, anything but a yellow Sutphen <img src="style_emoticons/default/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /><br />

<br /><br /><br /> whoa what you got against a yellow sutphen?