A Message To The Youth Of This Forum

[crcocr1 8]

This post quibbles with the word "youth." I know people in my agency who join when they are a bit older than 14-30 who also speak like they have been fighting fire or caring for the wounded for twenty years.

I recall an earlier post where the purpose of EMTbravo was stated "to encourage community among Fire/EMS members in the community." We should all share what we know, have experienced, and strive to learn more from others.

Perhaps the "younger crowd" should talk/teach about a new type of fire camera that just came out that an "old timer" might be resistant to use because technology is foreign to them. Perhaps the "older crowd" should share observations that might assist the youth at a fire scene so that suppression can occur more quickly.

Although I have worked in EMS and the ER for only six years, I know this one simple fact: No one knows everything. If we keep that in mind when we post, I think we all will benefit from evaluating things we know, learning the new, and becoming better at what we all do.

As I head back to study for the bar examination, I hope everyone in this forum "young or old" stays healthy and safe as you continue to help others by "fighting fire" and "saving lives." Once my exam is over, I will be able to give more time to my home agency.

Edited July 22, 2008 by crcocr1

[x635 4,066]

In other words, just because you're not a 'vet of 20 years' your ideas aren't important. As for the 'speaking out of place', I was unaware that members had to ask permission to post their thoughts. I myself was under the impression that this was a community forum, where both the young and seasoned professionals could communicate without being told nicely to 'shut up and listen'. I'm not knocking anyone, I enjoy reading the older guy's posts, but to limit younger members such as myself from communicating their thoughts is idiotic. I don't claim to know everything nor do I post as if I did, but everyone has to start somewhere. Way to make the young/probies feel welcome.

As others have said, you've completly misunderstood my point. I don't have time to address this whole issue, but I'll put some of my own things in.

I started off as an Explorer at 14 years old, serviing as Captain during most of my time. I was a Volunteer FF and Explorer Post Advisor for a few years after that, while working in a career as a 911 Fire/EMS Dispatcher and Paramedic. When I was young, I thought I new everything, and I was very eager to share my knowledge to impress my peers.

I'm about to turn 29 in a few weeks, and was just pondering back at things one night. I really knew nothing then. I was thinking about my good friends who have passed on and what they have taught me. One in particular was Ted Knoesel Sr. He was a 50+ member of the Ardsley FD, as well as a longtime family friend. He taught me so many things that I carry with me to this day. I really admired Ted, and spent every minute I could with him trying to learn from his spirit and knowledge. I miss him a great deal, but try and carry on the lessons he taught me. If I thought I knew everything and Ted was just "some old timer", then I probaly wouldn't be where I am today.

I'm not saying "shut up and listen", I'm just trying to point out the younger members on here may fare better by being more inquisitive then "hey I know that!". It's all in the attitude you present yourself in. All that paper you get for taking classes means NOTHING, I keep them as mementos. It's the lessons I learn from my patients and my peers that are the most important of them all. And, older guys are just sometimes rubbed the wrong way by enthusiasm. Not so much me, but other members.

One day you'll grow a bit older and maybe agree with me.

Seth

[Guest ECAFD3]

i think pick out on the younger crew is wrong. Is there people who comment about things they dont know about yes but how can you prove whos seen what ? what about the 50 yr old guy whos never seen a fire and the 25 year old whos been on the job in the city for a couple yrs ? your comments should be for all ages not just younger guys

[firemoose827 324]

I'm sorry but you don't know me so don't assume anything (you know the saying about assuming). I'm not whining, crying or whatever other term you wish to use. Nor am I a child. I'm voicing my opinion which you have obviously missed or failed to read properly in your haste to talk down to those which disagree. Kudos to you and your junior members for being more EMTBravo Gods, who we all know all and are obviously the best. /Sarcasm. I've done my share of training and my share of 'proby status' and now I'm going to give my opinion when I feel a blatant mis justice is being carried out. I'm disappointed at this forum immensely.

Thanks for your kind words Sir

First to Seth....good post. Makes lots of sense.

Now to DonMoose. I think you need to read Seth's poat again. He wasn't telling anyone what they can or can not post. Maybe I am used to an era when a probie was told to keep quiet and learn but that was 27 years ago and times have changed I guess which at times reading some of the posts in here I have to scratch my head. There are people who post on here who have forgotten what I have yet to learn and all is asked is some respect as would be in any firehouse.

Not talking to anyone in particular: you can read as many books as you want, go to a ton of training classes (a "junior" member doesnt usually have a family, full time job, as much responsibility etc so they have the luxury of attending a lot of classes, as I did) but you will never, I repeat never, get the "knowledge" you get from doing your time "on the streets" or however you want to put it. A book/class paints a pretty picture and yes you are prepared for a situation, but when things go wrong, the only thing that will help you is experience. With time, you get to see how to react to, and overcome, these imperfections that they cant write in a book. I agree that the "youth" of the forums should give their imput, but know where the line is and stay well behind it. Again, Im not directing this at one person.

On The Wheel, you said exactly what I was going to say, and I have more to add to this, and I wish EVERYONE to keep an open mind and try to take this as a reminder of what the fire service is, in so many ways....a Paramilitary organization, where ranks, experience, knowledge and RESPECT all must be maintained in order to operate efficiently.

As a young Junior Firefighter myself, when I was 14 on Long Island where I started out, the first thing I learned wasnt about fire behavior, or tools, or ventilation, or even turnout gear....It was about RESPECT. When I was attending our monthly Juniors Meeting and the Chief walked in we were to all immediately stand up at attention until the chief told us to stand down. When the fire trucks got back from calls, if every Junior ( that showed up for the call) was not ready to clean and re-pack the house beds you had cleaning duty at the station for a week after school, and god help you if there were firefighters cleaning equipment while you sat and rested....WHOOO!!!

When I finally showed the respect for officers and Sr Firefighters, I was allowed to take the Bright Orange Helmet and replace it with a normal Junior Helmet and participate in drills alongside firefighters who all eagerly taught me everything I wanted to know. At this stage the next lesson was "As a Junior Firefighter/Probie YOU KNOW NOTHING!!" and if anyone acted like they knew everything they were embarrassed in front of everyone and you were always picked on first to perform the evolutions and if you couldnt do it you were made example of in front of the entire Junior Corps until you were finally humbled and understood that even the most SR, Experienced Firefighters will never know everything and that every day should be spent trying to learn something new. I remember the last Junior that tried to say he "Knew everything about hoselines and didnt need any help or back up...." Two firefighters stood behind him, and the Pump Operator opened up the pressure until the kid started falling backwards until the firefighters caught him and backed him up. They shut the line down and the kid walked over with a sad look of defeat, and the fireman adviser said one of my favorite quotes today..."Id rather go into a burning building with someone who is constantly trying to learn rather than someone who thinks he knows it all."

From that day forward I respected my elders and my officers, whenever they spoke my mouth was shut and I listened and didnt DARE try to argue a point with them or speak myself, and I tried to always learn something new every day.

THAT...Is what I believe Seth tried to say in so many ways. I believe he was talking about the arrogant younger members that are always trying to critique incidents and question what seasoned firefighters are doing at fires....instead of listening to the senior members and asking questions. Its not a matter of your opinions being heard, its the responses to the advice you receive from the senior members in response to your opinions that offend. When a senior member tries to tell the younger members they are wrong and to listen....they for some reason take extreme personal offense to that and start to argue the point instead of making it the learning experience that it is. Did I make any sense?

The respect and desire to learn, and the PATIENCE to be able to do so is completely gone....It has been replaced with the need for "Overnight Sensations"....depts who take every probie fresh out of Basic training and throw them immediately into a hazardous environment without any further training, or supervision by senior firefighters due to lack of manpower. It used to be you could take that probie and CONTINUE the basic training in house with mask confidence drills, hose drills, ladder drills....than taking the probie and pairing them up with a senior firefighter and sending them into their first fire so they can LEARN street smarts from the Sr guy, learn the ropes, start taking that training and begin to UNDERSTAND it better than any book can explain it, but with the safety and experience of the senior firefighter.

So to DonMoose, no offense brother, and if you do take offense to all of this than firefighting is not for you, but You Have NOT done your share of training OR Probationary status...because you obviously have not been humbled enough and your posts reflect that. Try to learn from the senior members, they have earned that respect (some of them, I realize there are a few who act immature enough to be probies again, but there are those that try to talk to you, and not down to you.) Offer your opinions brother, you and EVERY member listening, but when someone tries to show you something that you may have missed or that you might be wrong about, it takes a better person to accept they made the mistake and try to learn from it as opposed to becoming a hot head and arguing the point till your blue in the face....Understand better now? I hope, because the fire service needs people like you with the passion and desire to become good firefighters.

Sorry for ranting so long, just wanted to help make the point I believe Seth, and the others, were making.

[SgtGumby311 0]

If I can make a suggestion. In addition to your age group for your profile, can you add a years in service line? Maybe this would cut down on some squabbling. Just a thought.

[Guest]

Doesn't surprise me.

wacker posts are neither here nor there. if you look at the age ranges for the wacker posts and lightbar posts, a lot of them are from the explorer posts and people are are just entering fd, ems - let them get their rocks off, it's really not that important.

and hfd219 - from what i've heard about your younger years - you probably shouldn't judge

[x129K 1,393]

If I can make a suggestion. In addition to your age group for your profile, can you add a years in service line? Maybe this would cut down on some squabbling. Just a thought.

Good idea!

[Guest]

I like what I read on the New England Fools site

Click on "About Us", then "FTM-PTB"

FTM-PTB

"The 4 UP's"

1. Listen UP

2. Clean UP

3. Step UP

4. Shut UP

[FFD941 20]

I agree with the fact that this post needs to be addressed to EVERYONE. I believe it was meant to make us think before we make a post.

I can count a many times when I wrote a multiple paragraph response to a thread and by the time I finished and reread my post I completely deleted it because I knew what I was doing.

Take this thread for example, in only 3 days there have been 38 posts on this topic alone. I can probably guess too that some of the posts made were based off of the original post and the reply posts were not even read. Read the whole thread, maybe what you're about to say was just said.