Too many chiefs?

[Raz 14]

Excellent post, Truck

[Bnechis 3,961]

If you look at some of the busier career departments you're not going to get 3 chiefs on a residential or commercial alarm.

I can't name a single career dept that sends more than 1. In fact, on residential alarms we send none. We let the engine officer handle it.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I can't name a single career dept that sends more than 1. In fact, on residential alarms we send none. We let the engine officer handle it.

You mean...you don't need a chief on every call...or the ones even they are at a line officer could handle a call....wow what an earth shattering concept.

Truck...great post. I think there are those that fail to realize that command needs to be established regardless of who is responding or isn't there. If no officers are there someone still needs to run that incident...establish command. What I love are the ones who aren't responding but still want to run an incident or give you direction via portable radio.

[IzzyEng4 427]

My vollie department has five chiefs but only one chief's truck. Our chief has the truck and if he is out of town, the truck gets passed down for use to the highest ranking assistant. Our assistant chiefs utilize their POVs whihc are equiped with red / white lights, a siren and radios. As for our line officers, each captain and lieutuenant has a number desingation begining with thier company number followed by a rank number.

Car 21 - Chief of the Department X01 - Captain

Car 22 - First Assistant Chief X02 - First Lieutenant

Car 23 - Second Assistant Chief X03 - Second Lieutenant

Car 24 - Third Assistant Chief X04 - Third Lieutenant (only two companies have a 3rd LT.)

Car 25 - Fourth Assistant Chief X = Company number

Each chief is assigned a duty week in rotation and is expected to respond to "routine" alarms. If the duty chief is absent, the ranking line officer on scene handles the call. All chiefs do sign on responding to calls when responding and the line officers only state they are responding to a call if they are riding on the apparatus. The officers number designations is primarily for fireground use only.

Each company sponsors a chief and he rises in rank every two years, a total commitment of ten years of service.

[Bnechis 3,961]

You mean...you don't need a chief on every call...or the ones even they are at a line officer could handle a call....wow what an earth shattering concept.

About 60% of our calls do not have a chief officer dispatched on. And a large %'s of the 40% that they are dispatched to, they are cancelled by the 1st due before they arrived.

I think this is an area where the career and VFD's operate very differently. If your company officers are properly trained, then this works. If you know what will roll everytime, rigs and personel...then this works. If you only get to be chief for a year, maybe its important that you get to use the lights and siren, cause next year your coat will say "EX-"

This is not bashing VFD's. I know many fine ones that do train there jr officers and do trust them to run the calls, but not many around here.

A few years ago I was teaching an EMT course in community with a VFD. I was teaching at the local VAC. Fire alarm came in next door, so we took a break to watch. Chiefs car came screeming in and parked directly in front of the home. THe chief (I could tell by his white helmet and nomex shorts and T-shirt ["I fight what you fear"]) ran into the home. I was supprised to hear him yelling "MOMMY" (found out later it was his mothers home..lol). 2 additional chiefs cars pulled in front of the house (both ran in). Then the 1st engine arived. the street was so jambed that the engine was within inches of the chiefs cars. they asked for a line and the only way to get to the cross lays was for a FF to hope up on the hood of the chiefs car and pull the line (loved the sound the coupling made when it hit the hood and was draged over it). Then 2 more engines pulled in (one in front- only left about a foot between the bumpers) and one behind (also so close that you could not pull hose). Followed by the rescue. Last to arrive was a 100 rearmount, it had 2 engines and a rescue between it and the house, making it about 150 feet from the building.

In this case, CHAOS (Chief has arrived on scene) proved to me that in this depts case, they might be better trusting the company officers...they counld be an worst.

Edited July 22, 2008 by Bnechis

[TRUCK6018 50]

If you only get to be chief for a year, maybe its important that you get to use the lights and siren, cause next year your coat will say "EX-"

Barry, no disrespect but I don't think that is a (justifiable) reason, although some might think so.

.....Fire alarm came in next door, so we took a break to watch. Chiefs car came screeming in and parked directly in front of the home. ....

... 2 additional chiefs cars pulled in front of the house (both ran in)....

The chiefs must have though they had hoses and a pump in the car. Or they just wanted to get a real good view of the front of the structure to set up command.

Last to arrive was a 100 rearmount, it had 2 engines and a rescue between it and the house, making it about 150 feet from the building.

I've heard if you try real hard, a 100 ft stick can be stretched to 150 ft. Note, I've heard this.... I've have yet to see it proved. I guess it would be easier to train this department in scene management.... or not.

[Danger 160]

I agree. Especially when you have a mutual aid fire and all your chiefs are out of town. Uh, who is watching our backyard? And y'all have a problem with communications anyway, not that you needed an out of county person to tell you that. Who cares if the 2nd Engine's 3rd Lt. is responding? In Dutchess, chiefs (much less line officers) don't call responding, on scene. Just drop their identifier when they arrive and establish command. I agree with Bnech on not needing a chief on every call. ICS is great, but I can handle the pump out and the wires down without establishing a PIO and a Liason.

[x134 46]

I agree. Especially when you have a mutual aid fire and all your chiefs are out of town. Uh, who is watching our backyard? And y'all have a problem with communications anyway, not that you needed an out of county person to tell you that. Who cares if the 2nd Engine's 3rd Lt. is responding? In Dutchess, chiefs (much less line officers) don't call responding, on scene. Just drop their identifier when they arrive and establish command. I agree with Bnech on not needing a chief on every call. ICS is great, but I can handle the pump out and the wires down without establishing a PIO and a Liason.

Or all the Chiefs in the district go to the mutual aid call........... enough said

[Danger 160]

Or all the Chiefs in the district go to the mutual aid call........... enough said

Oops, thats what I meant to say

[Remember585 815]

Something to consider...

If, say, all 3 of your Chiefs are home and there's a call, and all 3 are running out to their cars, what's to say they are carrying a pager or portable to hear who has signed on? I know that from my couch to my car takes me a few seconds, and many times I don't carry a radio with me. So when I get in the car I call responding, I may not have heard anyone else. It's not an ego issue, it's an "I didn't hear anyone else" issue.

And to those of you griping because you see three Chiefs at a call, would you rather the cars you're "paying" for don't show up? Everyone keeps harping on how people don't show up to calls, now are we implying that Chiefs don't count in the manpower total, so they don't have to go?

You can't have it both ways. If a Chief hears one or two other Chiefs going and theye decide to cancel, I respect that. Heck, if they go and get a rig - that's good too. But all my fellow Chiefs here know we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. If I go to the scene with the other two Chiefs, I hear "We don't need all three Chiefs here." If I go and get a rig out, I hear, "Chiefs shouldn't be getting the rig."

We won't send all 3 out of town either. I know that when we respond as a FAST I usually leave my Chief's car at the firehouse in case it's needed in the Village. Of course it helps when I remember to leave the key behind...

Sigh. LOL.

As far as the issue of too many Car #'s signing on for a call - AGREED. My Department is probably more guilty then others, we have far too many Chiefs then we do indians. (And if anyone has spent time studying history at all, there is one prominent factor that always seems to get overlooked - Chiefs are nothing without their Indians)!

Truck6018 hit it the best - if you have Junior Officers you can trust (and I am lucky that I do, in most cases) then let them take the lead. We're seeing Chiefs get elected who never, EVER ran a scene as a Line Officer because we have too many Chiefs. I am hopeful to give the chance to lead to my Junior Officers more often to get everyone some oppurtunities.

Chief's cars do get abused, but I blame that on what I see as a decline in morales not only in the firehouse, but in life in general. Everyone is so set on the "what's in it for me" mindset and not "what's best for all" attitude. If things don't change soon we're going to bury ourselves.

CHAOS - I used to laugh and take part in that one.... now it's not so funny....

Edited July 22, 2008 by Remember585

[helicopper 1,050]

I agree. Especially when you have a mutual aid fire and all your chiefs are out of town. Uh, who is watching our backyard? And y'all have a problem with communications anyway, not that you needed an out of county person to tell you that. Who cares if the 2nd Engine's 3rd Lt. is responding? In Dutchess, chiefs (much less line officers) don't call responding, on scene. Just drop their identifier when they arrive and establish command. I agree with Bnech on not needing a chief on every call. ICS is great, but I can handle the pump out and the wires down without establishing a PIO and a Liason.

Perhaps you should re-read some of that ICS you're criticizing. If your incident doesn't require the services of a PIO and Liaison you simply don't fill those positions. Most calls don't require a big elaborate organization but if you don't use ICS until the "big one" you're going to be far behind the curve.

ICS is just a process that provides some structure and order to the things we do. And they need to be done at EVERY call in one way, shape or form. It works just about everywhere else in the country, why do we fight it so much around here?

[Danger 160]

I think you may be looking in to that a little deep, I'm not saying we should have no accountability or organization at a "routine" incident. In fact, I'm not even "criticizing" it as you accuse me of. It was more of a facetious remark that sometimes we can use ICS and still K.I.S.S.

[TL2L31 8]

Mohegan has a Car 226-10 (Lieutenant). I believe 60-Controls CAD accepts it.

DO LTs really need numbers?

[TL2L31 8]

ok but if no chiefs are on location, they can contact the next highest ranking officer. In order for that they need the #'s like 2194 - 2198.

In that case, first due chauffer should be IC.

[DaRock98 76]

In that case, first due chauffer should be IC.

Don't you think that the 1st due chauffer has enough to do if he/she rolls up to a worker?

Unless its a joke that I dont get.

Edited July 23, 2008 by DaRock98

[DOC22 1]

The way we operate, whoever the highest ranking officer is the IC, if no chiefs or other officers are there, the the most snior member is IC pending arrival of chief or other officer. If none show up, Senior most member remains IC for the duration,

[Danger 160]

Don't you think that the 1st due chauffer has enough to do if he/she rolls up to a worker?

Unless its a joke that I dont get.

No joke, it should be. Don't you think the 3 or 4 guys inside have a little bit more of a circumstance going on than the MPO?

[ex-commish 490]

No joke, it should be. Don't you think the 3 or 4 guys inside have a little bit more of a circumstance going on than the MPO?

The MPO has to make sure the 3-4 guys inside have the necessary amount of water so they can do thier job. A bit critical I would say.

[TRUCK6018 50]

No joke, it should be. Don't you think the 3 or 4 guys inside have a little bit more of a circumstance going on than the MPO?

I do think the 3 or 4 have more going on, but should they? If you are the first due on scene and the whole crew immediately goes in on a worker, who's gonna save their assets when it hits the fan? The MPO? What is he gonna do, call on the radio to hurry up on additional units as he has firefighters trapped? If this is the case I think that department needs a refresher on the 2 in 2 out as prescribed in NFPA 1500, OSHA 29CFR 1910.120 and 1910.134.

If the crew of the first due did rush in, they (or the officer) didn't do their job. I certainly hope they took their time an did a proper size up. I don't mean a size up that there is a working fire. I mean a comprehensive size up of all sides of the structure and any hazards that may present.

[robert benz 344]

I do think the 3 or 4 have more going on, but should they? If you are the first due on scene and the whole crew immediately goes in on a worker, who's gonna save their assets when it hits the fan? The MPO? What is he gonna do, call on the radio to hurry up on additional units as he has firefighters trapped? If this is the case I think that department needs a refresher on the 2 in 2 out as prescribed in NFPA 1500, OSHA 29CFR 1910.120 and 1910.134.

If the crew of the first due did rush in, they (or the officer) didn't do their job. I certainly hope they took their time an did a proper size up. I don't mean a size up that there is a working fire. I mean a comprehensive size up of all sides of the structure and any hazards that may present.

2 in and 2 out are there to protect us granted, and osha etc, you would have to live with yourself making the decision to stay outside looking the homeowner in the face and "well we are waiting for the rest of the crew to show up" and yes that small fire that we could have put out is now out 2 windows or god forbid you didnt go in and someone could have been saved by acting quickly. too many lawyers in the world today

[helicopper 1,050]

2 in and 2 out are there to protect us granted, and osha etc, you would have to live with yourself making the decision to stay outside looking the homeowner in the face and "well we are waiting for the rest of the crew to show up" and yes that small fire that we could have put out is now out 2 windows or god forbid you didnt go in and someone could have been saved by acting quickly. too many lawyers in the world today

Conversely if you're sued by the family of a member killed in a fire because they called a mayday but nobody was there yet to bail them out would you be able to look yourself in the mirror? Would you even be able to defend that lawsuit if you knowingly ignored standards and regulations about 2 in 2 out or whatever else applies?

Aren't there plenty of things you can do from the outside without endangering yourselves until the next apparatus arrives?

Its very interesting that these rules are touted as the benchmarks of the industry and agencies want our municipalities to support them (more staffing, newer/better apparatus, etc.) and yet here we sit saying we'd throw it all away because somebody's property is burning. If 2 in 2 out is the rule for YOUR safety why would you go into a hazardous environment without that minimum back-up?

(Robert, this is not criticism directed at YOU. I've heard much the same sentiment from plenty of other people that cause me to ask the question)

[robert benz 344]

Conversely if you're sued by the family of a member killed in a fire because they called a mayday but nobody was there yet to bail them out would you be able to look yourself in the mirror? Would you even be able to defend that lawsuit if you knowingly ignored standards and regulations about 2 in 2 out or whatever else applies?

Aren't there plenty of things you can do from the outside without endangering yourselves until the next apparatus arrives?

Its very interesting that these rules are touted as the benchmarks of the industry and agencies want our municipalities to support them (more staffing, newer/better apparatus, etc.) and yet here we sit saying we'd throw it all away because somebody's property is burning. If 2 in 2 out is the rule for YOUR safety why would you go into a hazardous environment without that minimum back-up?

(Robert, this is not criticism directed at YOU. I've heard much the same sentiment from plenty of other people that cause me to ask the question)

it is a very tough law to follow, I took an oath to do the best I can bla bla bla, and if you are going to follow it you cant pick and choose, You stay outside and wait even if it is your house, your family, your neighbor etc.

we can use all kinds of arguements and both sides can be right

vacant boarded up building that the owner stopped caring for 10 yrs ago is different than the 2.5 frame around the corner, also I will will use this if I have to " i thought or felt someone was inside the structure" and then you can weave around the 2in/2out

most of the runs where I work are a quick response, I feel if you can hold the fire while it is still small, you have a lesser chance of the things that can go wrong as the fire increases

the cities / towns / villages/ fire districts get to pick and choose which NFPA guidelines they want to adopt, How many depts ride 4 ff's on each apparatus?

If there is a Fatal fire there will be plenty of finger pointing to go around whichever way you choose.

Chris or anybody else how about this one Engine 1 with 1 officer and 3 ff's on scene followed by the chief by himself, working fire, homeowner states she was cooking and it flared up in the kitchen, nobody else home. Chief orders you (the Lt) to stretch a line to the kitchen, your mpo isnt part of the 2in/2out the chief isnt part of the 2in/2out and you are aware of the law, what do you do???

[gamewell45 258]

it is a very tough law to follow, I took an oath to do the best I can bla bla bla, and if you are going to follow it you cant pick and choose, You stay outside and wait even if it is your house, your family, your neighbor etc.

we can use all kinds of arguements and both sides can be right

vacant boarded up building that the owner stopped caring for 10 yrs ago is different than the 2.5 frame around the corner, also I will will use this if I have to " i thought or felt someone was inside the structure" and then you can weave around the 2in/2out

most of the runs where I work are a quick response, I feel if you can hold the fire while it is still small, you have a lesser chance of the things that can go wrong as the fire increases

the cities / towns / villages/ fire districts get to pick and choose which NFPA guidelines they want to adopt, How many depts ride 4 ff's on each apparatus?

If there is a Fatal fire there will be plenty of finger pointing to go around whichever way you choose.

Chris or anybody else how about this one Engine 1 with 1 officer and 3 ff's on scene followed by the chief by himself, working fire, homeowner states she was cooking and it flared up in the kitchen, nobody else home. Chief orders you (the Lt) to stretch a line to the kitchen, your mpo isnt part of the 2in/2out the chief isnt part of the 2in/2out and you are aware of the law, what do you do???

If you have reasonable assurance that the house is clear, then you tell the chief, sorry, no can do until we have proper staffing. Better call another engine or ladder or wait for the volunteers to show up if you have any. No need taking unnecessary risks or putting someone in danger by cutting corners. God forbid that the initial entry crew gets into trouble and someone gets hurt or killed, they are going to point the fingers at you and cite the law and they would be right.

[TRUCK6018 50]

Chris or anybody else how about this one Engine 1 with 1 officer and 3 ff's on scene followed by the chief by himself, working fire, homeowner states she was cooking and it flared up in the kitchen, nobody else home. Chief orders you (the Lt) to stretch a line to the kitchen, your mpo isnt part of the 2in/2out the chief isnt part of the 2in/2out and you are aware of the law, what do you do???

Depending upon the interpretation of the law (I do say law because it's not only in NFPA but also OSHA), the chief and MPO could be two of the "firefighters" required. For the sake of argument for this scenario let's say that the chief and MPO are not part of the 2 in 2 out. I would wait. The only time exception to the 2/2 rule (as defined in the NFPA version) is if immediate action can prevent loss of life or serious injury. If it's a kitchen fire and no one else is in the structure, wait the extra few minutes. Aside from the fact that next due may be the difference in establishing a steady water supply. The kitchen can be rebuilt. Lives can not.

[robert benz 344]

If you have reasonable assurance that the house is clear, then you tell the chief, sorry, no can do until we have proper staffing. Better call another engine or ladder or wait for the volunteers to show up if you have any. No need taking unnecessary risks or putting someone in danger by cutting corners. God forbid that the initial entry crew gets into trouble and someone gets hurt or killed, they are going to point the fingers at you and cite the law and they would be right.

maybe that is the difference between todays firefighters and when i started I didnt need a lawyer to tell me how to do my job.

I would quit before standing on the front lawn looking the homeowner in the eye and waiting for more manpower. I have never thought about making that call before and I hope I never have to.

As far as getting sued, once you accept any rank in the fire service, that comes with the territory.

I am not saying anybody has to do it the way I will, follow the law/ sops, I just believe you have less chance of a problem with the building in the first minutes of a fire, (lightweight construction) than by waiting, giving the fire more burn time.

I do work in an area where rigs do come unto the scene rather quickly

[robert benz 344]

ok new question, how many of you officers would go in and attack the fire and how many would stand by and wait for the next in apparatus

I might not have made this clear you do have a full response dispatched they are not on the scene yet how about delayed due to weather or traffic

[dools16 1]

Hey Capt. I'm with you. We go in with 2 or 3 guys all the time. Vols and off duty guys are coming as we are stretching in.

[NWFDMedic 58]

This is an interesting topic that has strayed a bit from the original question.

As far as chief's cars are concerned, I'm not really certain when the idea came up that we needed chief's cars in the volunteer service. I guess that one would be a good idea, but I don't see why the assistants in small departments can't be properly outfitted in their POV's and get reimbursed mileage for responding to scenes. There is no reason why a duty roster cannot be set up for the assistant chiefs and/or line officers and a single vehicle could be available in the absence of the chief.

As far as the liability is concerned, the district should be assuming the liability for the chief responding in their POV to a scene (including the use of red lights and sirens or any damage that may be incurred). The argument about a chief's POV getting damaged because they blocked off a scene is moot, because the district is liable for any damage incurred to any memeber's vehicle during the proper performance of their duties. As a junior officer, if there is an instance that I need to respond to the scene and use my car as a block to maintain safety of the scene until apparatus arrives, I wouldn't hesitate to do it and the district would be liable for damage if it was determined that I was properly performing my duties. Heck, if I came upon an accident outside my district in my POV, I would position my vehicle for to maintain the safety of those injured... life before property, although in that case, my wallet might feel it.

Another thing that I am fully in support of is the management of scenes by junior officers. When I first ascended to captain, nothing bothered me more than the fact that I am next in line to be assistant chief and the chief officers would insist on taking command of an incident I could easily handle. I had no problem handling incidents when the two chiefs were at work. If I have things under control, why not let me get the experience and the chief can sit in the air conditioning.

Finally, in regards to the radio traffic, I'm guessing you guys are referring to communication with a county communications center. On a department level, each of our six officers is supposed to call responding, but only the highest ranking officer calls to county. Usually I won't call county unless they make more than one call for "any New Windsor officer" without a chief answering or known to be responding on our channel. My first contact with county is usually leaving the station as the apparatus, not as my car number. If I get on scene with the apparatus and no chief/higher officer is on scene, I'll call "Engine 447 on scene, Car 6 will be command". In the grand scheme of things, that doesn't even matter. County should be able to call for command and I should be smart enough to answer if I am wearing that hat.