Too many chiefs?

[Future Fireman 4]

It appears to me that everytime a new apparatus is posted here (in the photo section) it seems that some are chief cars. That being said, I AM NOT BASHING ANY CHIEFS HERE OR THOSE WHO DO THE OUTFITTING. As a Massachusetts teen, I've never seen so many chief cars being delivered in a year EVER around here. My questions are the following:

Do we really need this many chiefs?

Why not save the money for other apparatus (Engines, Ladders [stick and TL], rescues, and ambulances)? Do you really need to replace that 5 year old chief car and keep that 20 year old engine in service?

Mike

Edited July 20, 2008 by Future Fireman

[DaRock98 76]

Well in my dept we have 3 chief cars when one gets replaced it usually is the oldest one that goes and if it is an assistants car that gets replaced and the chief gets the new car while the other cars get bumped down . My guess is that in many depts chiefs also use there cars for there personal affairs therefor giving them a lot more wear and tear then some of the apparatus. It also maybe these 25 year old rigs are doing perfectly fine and don't need to be replaced yet. In my dept our TL is 23 years old and is in great condition and is not even being discussed for replacement, besides the routine maintenance we have not had to take it OOS for a few years now. (knock on wood)

[Future Fireman 4]

Well in my dept we have 3 chief cars when one gets replaced it usually is the oldest one that goes and if it is an assistants car that gets replaced and the chief gets the new car while the other cars get bumped down . My guess is that in many depts chiefs also use there cars for there personal affairs therefor giving them a lot more wear and tear then some of the apparatus. It also maybe these 25 year old rigs are doing perfectly fine and don't need to be replaced yet. In my dept our TL is 23 years old and is in great condition and is not even being discussed for replacement, besides the routine maintenance we have not had to take it OOS for a few years now. (knock on wood)

When I say 20 y/o apparatus I'm talking about the one that's OOS more than it is IN SERVICE and/or has SEVERE rust issues.

Mike

[Guest MVFD334]

Chief trucks see alot more time than appartus that is in the bay. with that being said if a dept is buying new vehicles before rigs are updated or over due for replacement, then they are in the wrong.

[Raz 14]

I'm going to abstain from commenting on chief's cars at the moment, but I believe Westchester has too many chiefs in general. Seriously, some departments have over ten car numbers assigned to them. It's bordering on being asinine.

[jack10562 414]

I'm going to abstain from commenting on chief's cars at the moment, but I believe Westchester has too many chiefs in general. Seriously, some departments have over ten car numbers assigned to them. It's bordering on being asinine.

Not every unit is a Chief.

One very important consideration that you are probably missing out on with car number assignments is that many of those units are company captains, lieutenants, and deputy chief's, in addition to the actual Chief's.

[Ex-2114 7]

For a department with 3 chiefs..... and only 1 car for the Chief (not the assistants).... what happens when the assitant chief is the only Chief on the scene of an MVA (highway for example).... Should he/she use his POV to block traffic???? I say no.

Also... a LOT of departments, both PD and FD, have resorted to leasing their vehicles now... It's cheaper and they are custom outfitted per the dept's requirements. The lease is normally 3 years. This way, the department doesn't have to worry about repairing high-use vehicles..... From the financial aspect, it works out to be cheaper for the dept.

[DOC22 1]

There are too phrases that you need to think of when talking about chiefs (this is ment to taken as a joke):

-Too many chiefs and not enough indians

-Chief has arrived on scene (CHAOS)

Funny you bring that one up--- We always joke about how much better the scene went with no chiefs there.

[DaRock98 76]

Not every unit is a Chief.

One very important consideration that you are probably missing out on with car number assignments is that many of those units are company captains, lieutenants, and deputy chief's, in addition to the actual Chief's.

Yes exactly.

In my department the last number designates the rank of the officer.(as in many others I know of)

For example:

#1-3 are Chiefs and Assistants

#4 is the Captain

#5-8 are the Lieutenants

[Future Fireman 4]

Yes exactly.

In my department the last number designates the rank of the officer.(as in many others I know of)

For example:

#1-3 are Chiefs and Assistants

#4 is the Captain

#5-8 are the Lieutenants

Does the Capt and Lieuts. have their own officer's car? Or do they ride the engine/truck/rescue? If they only have radio IDs assigned that's fine, but if they have a car too, that's a waste.

Mike

[PVFD113 6]

I am not taking any sides here--just one or two thoughts to ponder--

Outfitting a POV with proper/adaquate lights, siren, radio, antenna--would you wnat to be forced to do that to your car or truck? I would like the choice not be forced. All the meetings and alike--(there are alot believe me) alot of added wear and tear , milage etc to your POV--above and beyond calls. What about the insurance aspect of running red lights and siren on your POV? So--yes it may seem like a perk--but more a requirement.

Just my humble opinion

[DaRock98 76]

Does the Capt and Lieuts. have their own officer's car? Or do they ride the engine/truck/rescue? If they only have radio IDs assigned that's fine, but if they have a car too, that's a waste.

Mike

No the only people who have cars are the chiefs and the rest ride the rigs.

[TL2L31 8]

My opinion is that although only the three chiefs might have a town issued vehicle, they should be the only ones with a car number. It will keep less radio traffic.

[Bnechis 3,961]

but I believe Westchester has too many chiefs in general.

Way too many. And most are duplicating the same efforts as everyone else (Budgets, policies, procedures, etc.)

Seriously, some departments have over ten car numbers assigned to them. It's bordering on being asinine.

Depends on what they use the cars for. The numbering system technically has only allowed for 10 numbers and for us that has been a problem since we own more than 10 vehicles that are not "apparatus"

2301 - Chief of Dept

2302 - Shift Command (on duty deputy chief)

2303 - Spare Command Car or 2nd Battalion during storms

2303A - Chief of Support Services (note this is the same identifier as the spare command car chiefs portable radio)

2304 - Training

2305 - Dept Shop

2306 - EMS

2306A - Spare Staff Car (note this is the same identifier as the EMS portable radio)

2307 - Dept Shop

2308 - Fire Prevention

2309 - Code Enforcement Officer

2309A - Safety (note this is the same identifier as the Code Enforcement Officer portable radio)

Then we have a new van and a new pick-up without numbers. Thats 14 vehicles sharing 10 numbers.

Note we have a new numbering system in te works which will clean this up a bit, but that also means making some "cars" into utility #'s And we already have utility's that should be Id'ed as apparatus, but the county does not catagorize utilitys.

[jack10562 414]

There's no reason that I am aware of, why a department can't exceed ten identifier units.

For example in NewRo, you could have 230-10, 230-11, 230-12, and so on.

If I'm not mistaken, White Plains FD does something similar for their code enforcement and other support units.

The only problem, ( if it is in fact a problem) is whether or not CAD can accept a unit identifier having in excess of four numeric characters, especially if it's going to be responding to incidents and needs to be logged.

[EJS1810 7]

Mohegan has a Car 226-10 (Lieutenant). I believe 60-Controls CAD accepts it.

[firemoose827 324]

Here in my County they label the officers for radio communications, only a FEW have actual chiefs cars, and I mean a few....Like maybe 4-5 chiefs in the county have one that they purchased used from some big department down by the city.

They start with the dept designation, which ours is 50, than the unit number...

5011- Chief

5012- 1st Assistant

5013- 2nd Assistant

5014- 3rd assistant

5015-Captain 1

5016- Captain 2

5017- Captain 3

5018- Lt 1

5019- Lt 2

5010- Lt 3 (they ran out so they issued 10)

Engines- 5021-23

Ladder- 5081

Rescue- 5061

Brush- 5051

Tanker- 5041

Ambulance- 5091-92

EMS Officers

5001- Captain

5002- 1st Lt

5003- 2nd Lt

[Guest voeltz 234]

My opinion is that although only the three chiefs might have a town issued vehicle, they should be the only ones with a car number. It will keep less radio traffic.

ok but if no chiefs are on location, they can contact the next highest ranking officer. In order for that they need the #'s like 2194 - 2198.

[DOC22 1]

Here's how we do it:

2071 = Chief

2072 = 1st Assistant Chief

2073 = 2nd Assistant Chief

2074 = Captain Co #1

2075 = Captain Co #2

2076 = Captain Co #3

The lieutenants use Portable numbers:

Portable #1 = Co #1 Lieutenant

Portable #2 = Co #2 Lieutenant

Portable #3 = Co #3 1st Lieutenant

Portable #4 = Co #3 2nd Lieutenant

[Raz 14]

My opinion is that although only the three chiefs might have a town issued vehicle, they should be the only ones with a car number. It will keep less radio traffic.

That's basically what I was getting at. Guys love to hear themselves talk sometimes.

[Medic137 6]

Maybe the problem of too many chiefs is secondary to too many departments. How many postage stamp sized districts have three or more chief vehicles within a mile or two of the the districts on either side?

[DaRock98 76]

My opinion is that although only the three chiefs might have a town issued vehicle, they should be the only ones with a car number. It will keep less radio traffic.

I see your point and definitely agree that to many people like to talk and hear themselves on the radio but in my dept only the 3 chiefs have radios. The rest are just identifiers basically for the officers to talk to each other on the fire ground frequency.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

If you need to use identifiers for response notification...I get it. Within a certain amount of reasonability. As far as having identifiers on the fireground...if your using ICS your identifier should be your function ...."attack" "roof" "search" "safety" "operations" etc. Another idea is why does every identifier have to mark responding? If the Chief is responding does every other line officer and deputy chief's have to mark responding also?

[firemoose827 324]

If you need to use identifiers for response notification...I get it. Within a certain amount of reasonability. As far as having identifiers on the fireground...if your using ICS your identifier should be your function ...."attack" "roof" "search" "safety" "operations" etc. Another idea is why does every identifier have to mark responding? If the Chief is responding does every other line officer and deputy chief's have to mark responding also?

Our County does not require that, but my chiefs want everyone to at least acknowledge they are responding so they know who they have and where they are going as far as officer. Only one chief will usually go to the scene, than the rest go to the station for rigs. If the chief isnt going than the first assistant will go. The line officers always go to station and they only call enroute, the rest of the time they keep silent.

[DaRock98 76]

If you need to use identifiers for response notification...I get it. Within a certain amount of reasonability. As far as having identifiers on the fireground...if your using ICS your identifier should be your function ...."attack" "roof" "search" "safety" "operations" etc. Another idea is why does every identifier have to mark responding? If the Chief is responding does every other line officer and deputy chief's have to mark responding also?

I see what your saying but since we are on the trunk system we don't always know if a chief calls in or not so sometimes the line officer on the first rig will call in responding with the rig if he doesn't hear a chief on the air.

[Goose 188]

Maybe the problem of too many chiefs is secondary to too many departments. How many postage stamp sized districts have three or more chief vehicles within a mile or two of the the districts on either side?

Bingo. Why does a 1 square mile district require 6 asst chiefs? At this rate, might as well just tax me some more and use all my money to buy everyone a Tahoe.

If you look at some of the busier career departments you're not going to get 3 chiefs on a residential or commercial alarm. So, if you ask me, these things start to become an over exaggerated POV and serious drain on my tax dollars. Can't tell you how many times I’ve pulled up to a scene to see the plethora of chief's cars and they all have family in them (wife/kids).

Edited July 21, 2008 by Goose

[Raz 14]

Moose and DaRock, I see what you're saying, but those are just examples of how your department runs things. There are some FD's in Westchester, that if you listened to a call, you'd hear something like this:

60 Control to Engine 1, Engine 2, and Ladder 1; (type of call)

Engine 1 responding

Engine 2 responding

Ladder 1 responding

Car 0001 responding

Car 0002 responding

Car 0004 responding

Car 0007 responding

Engine 1 on location

Car 0011 responding

Car 0013 responding

Engine 2 on location

etc...

Like I said, it gets ridiculous.

[DaRock98 76]

Moose and DaRock, I see what you're saying, but those are just examples of how your department runs things. There are some FD's in Westchester, that if you listened to a call, you'd hear something like this:

60 Control to Engine 1, Engine 2, and Ladder 1; (type of call)

Engine 1 responding

Engine 2 responding

Ladder 1 responding

Car 0001 responding

Car 0002 responding

Car 0004 responding

Car 0007 responding

Engine 1 on location

Car 0011 responding

Car 0013 responding

Engine 2 on location

etc...

Like I said, it gets ridiculous.

Absolutely, I know exactly what you mean that is overkill to it's finest. There is no need to have all that radio talk. I think it should just be the first chief to sign on and the apparatus that is responding. If no chief is responding then it should be E123, 2347 responding. All other officers should just call the rigs they are in or drive to the scene. I hear dept up in the north of the county call in b/c I believe all the line officers have there own radios/portables in there POV and every time I hear them get toned out like 7 officers sign on along with the apparatus.

[MoFire390 118]

Where i am a memeber yes we do have 3 cheif cars the newest of which was posted on here. when i was younger and my father was asst. chief he did not get a truck until he was 1st asst chief. its only been about 11+ years that every cheif has a car. my father used to drive is 88 s-10 pick up with a light bar that the FD gave him along with 2 halagon flashers on the bumper.

1- 07 expedtion

2- 04 expedtion

3- 99 dodge pickup

[TRUCK6018 50]

I see what your saying but since we are on the trunk system we don't always know if a chief calls in or not so sometimes the line officer on the first rig will call in responding with the rig if he doesn't hear a chief on the air.

In reality does this matter? There should be an established command post at every incident from automatic alarm to fully involved structure, from wires down to a full blown hazmat situation. Regardless what the incident is, there should be a command post where EVERY engine, truck chief, bus, etc checks in with.

If the line officer is on the rig responding, you are part of that crew of the rig. If you get on the scene and there is no chief, you establish command. If there is a chief there you get your assignment. It is not necessary to sign on as engine 123 and Lieut Smith responding.

When I was the chief of department in my former department I can't count how many time I didn't sign on at all. When I reported to the command post I got "I didn't know you were coming". My reply was "does it matter?". If that junior officer was taking care of business at the incident, I didn't have command transfered. I may have stuck around as a consultant if requested. Other times I went back in service.

Even though by state law the chief is ultimately responsible of everything that happens, regardless of where the chief is, that doesn't mean he (or she) has to be the IC of every incident he (or she) is at. How are junior officers going to get experience if they aren't in the IC seat once in a while?