Should the apparatus driver leave the rig wile at a fire?

[IzzyEng4 427]

I'm starting another topic about driver leaving their rigs as mentiond by a few members in the aggressive laddering topic. I'm not talking about "beaching the whale" in order to have all personnel operate at a fire scene. In that case the apparatus is not being used other than a personnel transport and "tool box" so to speak.

I'm asking should an engine company MPO or ladder company chauffeur leave their pump panel or turntable at a working structure fire?

I believe that the apparatus drive should not leave their apparatus while the truck is operating in that particular fashion. To much can go wrong while lines are in operation or the aerial having personnel climbing up to the roof. Granted there are situations where the driver must get something from a compartment on the truck but still has a watchful eye on the apparatus. I'm taking about setting it up and totally abandoning it with personnel working off of it. It seems a lot of times because of manpower constraints thought the fire service, the driver sets up and leaves the most vital position on the rig.

I firmly believe the driver shouldn't leave the rig while under operation unless relieved by an equally qualified operator.

What do you all think?

[gamewell45 258]

I'm starting another topic about driver leaving their rigs as mentiond by a few members in the aggressive laddering topic. I'm not talking about "beaching the whale" in order to have all personnel operate at a fire scene. In that case the apparatus is not being used other than a personnel transport and "tool box" so to speak.

I'm asking should an engine company MPO or ladder company chauffeur leave their pump panel or turntable at a working structure fire?

I believe that the apparatus drive should not leave their apparatus while the truck is operating in that particular fashion. To much can go wrong while lines are in operation or the aerial having personnel climbing up to the roof. Granted there are situations where the driver must get something from a compartment on the truck but still has a watchful eye on the apparatus. I'm taking about setting it up and totally abandoning it with personnel working off of it. It seems a lot of times because of manpower constraints thought the fire service, the driver sets up and leaves the most vital position on the rig.

I firmly believe the driver shouldn't leave the rig while under operation unless relieved by an equally qualified operator.

What do you all think?

My position (and the position of every fire department i've been a member of) is the MPO/Chauffeur stays with the apparatus at all times unless relieved by a qualified operator whether the pumper/ladder truck is in active use or parked at the scene. The chauffeur has complete responsibility for that apparatus once it leaves the fire station until its returned and parked.

[Guest moose__72]

I agree with you Joe. If the member wants to drive the rig to the fire, he or she must take the responsibility to keep that rig in operation. Manpower during daytime hours is a tough situation, but what good is it to the few members on the line if the rig's water supply drops out or one of a hundred other things go wrong just because the pump operator wants to throw a spare ladder or stretch an extra line. In our area, as Joe most likely would agree, the water supplies and other variables require the pump operator to keep an eye on the entire scene, not just the pump he is running. And the only way to do that is to stay near the pump panel and be ready to make any changes if needed.

Emergency situations is a whole different animal. If an emergency arises, the pump operator should take action, but common sense should be number one. If 4 lines are in operation in a working fire with crews spread out all over the place and a person sprains their ankle, pump is number 1. If you have 2 lines in operation at a brush fire and someone drops in cardiac arrest, the code wins.

Common sense and experience are the key to a proper and successful decision. But the pump operator's priority is getting the truck there and putting it to good use.

[robert benz 344]

My position (and the position of every fire department i've been a member of) is the MPO/Chauffeur stays with the apparatus at all times unless relieved by a qualified operator whether the pumper/ladder truck is in active use or parked at the scene. The chauffeur has complete responsibility for that apparatus once it leaves the fire station until its returned and parked.

7 engines on the scene, your engine didnt get called to the scene for pumping but needed extra manpower, still going to babysit the apparatus, same thing with a truck, no way to setup due to wires or later arrival and being boxed out, lots of ground ladders on all the closer trucks, still want the chauffeur to stay with the apparatus?

always and nevers have a very limited place in the fire service.

[Guest]

Too many variables for this to come to a conclusive answer. How many guys do you have there, how many are competent... it can go on and on. You would need to create a question that had finite parameters to truly answer this correctly.

Should an engine with 3 guys on it have the driver stay with the rig if they are 3rd due, no way. Should he roll up to the first due rig in shorts and a tshirt, def no way. How about if its a rig with 5 or 6 guys on it, and all the other responding rigs are manned the same way? Can he then go up front and monitor the panel with the 1st due rig? What about if this is an inter-agency response? I wouldnt leave my rig with another person when guys I work with are depending on it to function the way its supposed to!

[Guest moose__72]

While always and never are indeed hard to use in the fire service, should is a good settling point. My take on it is what if that engine in needed for something? Whether it is a tool that is needed or a rush on another water supply when "it" hits the fan, the pump operator should be in position to facilitate the needs. Granted if the MPO is away from the truck he can get back and do what needs to be done rather quickly, but if he was there all along he could get things moving and more importantly be updated on the situation from the pump operators standpoint for what he is acting on.

In my opinion, while it is not set in stone, the MPO should be ready to handle any pump situation if he drove the pump there.

[jloftus 28]

Gotta say this is a topic I shouldnt respond to but some times a lesson learned is better for all, one time we had a job come in only two blocks from the house, I was driving ladder 2, on arrival we had heavy smoke showing out of the 2nd. floor window on the 2 side. My crew went in to search and vent and the 2nd. truck was still a little out, I made a call and laddered the building with the stick and went up to put a vent hole over were they were working, after I started the hole I realized what a bone head move, I looked down at the truck and thought what happens if something happens?? After awile a MPO got on the stick, which I didnt like either. Lesson of the day" think dope".

[Engfire 0]

I personally will leave the rig if its not need for any part of the operation, and if you go mutual aid it is expected that if your rig is not needed for its purpose, you best be going to work with the rest of our crew. we have no policy in place that mandates you to stay with your rig if its not in operation.

[gamewell45 258]

7 engines on the scene, your engine didnt get called to the scene for pumping but needed extra manpower, still going to babysit the apparatus, same thing with a truck, no way to setup due to wires or later arrival and being boxed out, lots of ground ladders on all the closer trucks, still want the chauffeur to stay with the apparatus?

always and nevers have a very limited place in the fire service.

yes, because if anything happens to that truck or someone gets hurt if the truck moves while its unattended, the driver will be held accountable.

[DOC22 1]

yes, because if anything happens to that truck or someone gets hurt if the truck moves while its unattended, the driver will be held accountable.

Just to reiterate that, didn't some guy try to , or actually steal a ladder truck from a fire scene in Lower Westchester not too long ago???

All the more reaon to keep a driver with the apparatus. Especially in this day and age, when terrorists want to steal emergency vehicles!!!

[Remember585 815]

It's a waste of manpower to have people babysitting rigs at a scene if they aren't being used.

If you have enough personnel where you can leave someone with every rig at an incident then go for it. But if you are spread a little thin and could use an additional 1 or 2 guys, why have them stand around with their thumbs up their asses when you could give them a more important role?

And to all of you are talking about how a rig can be stolen at a call if it isn't being attended to, do you keep someone with it when you go to a parade? When you're inside at a funeral?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

Let's face reality, if someone wants to steal it, they're going to. It doesn't matter if it is outside or in quarters - running or not.

[DOC22 1]

At a parade? yeah we do. Up n the North County we don't do enough funerals to even birng that into thi discussion.

[Remember585 815]

Up in the North County we don't do enough funerals to even birng that into thi discussion.

Thank God for that!

[DOC22 1]

AAHHHH YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!!!

[Guest MVFD334]

wait so you decided that ur 3rd or 4th due and the crews you have to work with are stretched a lil to thin. so now you you leave the truck your responsible for and hell brakes loose, and where are you? in a sitiuation that a crew shouldnt be in, fighting a fire without of enough man power. what happens if the first truck runs out and the 2nd runs into a problem?

[gamewell45 258]

And to all of you are talking about how a rig can be stolen at a call if it isn't being attended to, do you keep someone with it when you go to a parade? When you're inside at a funeral?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

Let's face reality, if someone wants to steal it, they're going to. It doesn't matter if it is outside or in quarters - running or not.

I realize that every department has different policies, however in my department, the driver stays with the truck during parades, funerals, details, etc unless someone (such as another firefighter or fire-police officer) is designated to replace him to watch the trucks for security purposes only. If the trucks are running, then another qualified driver must relieve the driver requesting relief.

While there can be no guarantee that a manned fire apparatus will never be stolen nor vandalized, the chances are lessened with someone watching the fort.

[Remember585 815]

wait so you decided that ur 3rd or 4th due and the crews you have to work with are stretched a lil to thin. so now you you leave the truck your responsible for and hell brakes loose, and where are you? in a sitiuation that a crew shouldnt be in, fighting a fire without of enough man power. what happens if the first truck runs out and the 2nd runs into a problem?

Huh?

If the brakes go, your CHOCKS should be in place to help avoid the rig from rolling away. Not only that, but proper maintenance will help reduce the risk of this occurring. Whether someone is standing there or not isn't going to change the fact the rig loses it's brakes. I don't exactly understand the part where you say the first truck runs out. Runs out of what? Water? Fuel?

You can "what if" all you want - I'm not arguing that. BUT - if your concerns are of the rig or rigs having issues, then what do you do at calls when you send only one rig? Do you have 3 or 4 Rescues respond to an extrication call "in case" the equipment fails? I doubt it.

I come from an FD where the driver is expected to stay with thier rigs. Sometimes, situations arise where that driver needs to do something else and leave the rig. It doesn't happen often, but it does. Saying that we have to do something either "all the time," or "never" is just plain stupid. We have to be chameleons, changing and adapting to every situation that presents itself. What do you do if you pull up on a fire in a rig ALONE and someone needs to be rescued from a window? What if you're standing at your pump panel, in staging, and one of your BROTHERS goes down across the street from you? Watch?!

I think it's safe to say that the rig chauffer should stay with their rig whenever it is warranted, but if the rig they drove is not needed, then they can shut it down and be put to use elsewhere.

[Remember585 815]

I realize that every department has different policies, however in my department, the driver stays with the truck during parades, funerals, details, etc unless someone (such as another firefighter or fire-police officer) is designated to replace him to watch the trucks for security purposes only. If the trucks are running, then another qualified driver must relieve the driver requesting relief.

If it is running, that's fine. But if it can be shut down and left unattended, then why not?

While there can be no guarantee that a manned fire apparatus will never be stolen nor vandalized, the chances are lessened with someone watching the fort.

Agreed, but how many departments have stuff taken out of their own firehouses by their own people when nobody is around? My guess is more often then having a rig stolen at a scene.....

[FFPCogs 863]

always and nevers have a very limited place in the fire service.

Well put.

Generally speaking yes, absolutely the MPO/chauffer stays with the rig. In extreme cases, when no other alternative is available then we have to do what we have to do. I'm not a believer in absolutes on the fireground, I've worked a few jobs that called for the extreme. I look at it like this, if you leave your position as a driver you better damn well have a good reason for doing so, and make sure everyone knows your doing it.

SOP/G's are great, and I'm an firm advocate of having them in place, but they are just that...guidelines. The situation dictates the response, sometimes measures above and beyond or in "violation" of established SOP/Gs are necessary.

As for drivers staying with the rig at events off the fireground...that makes perfectly good sense to me. At the very least a probie with a radio should "stand guard".

Cogs

[robert benz 344]

yes, because if anything happens to that truck or someone gets hurt if the truck moves while its unattended, the driver will be held accountable.

we could what if this to death and yes if you have the manpower to leave a member at the rig at all times great more power to you I know of some depts that require a member to stay with the hydrant once it is hooked.

Did a nut get in the aerial in Mt Vernon and move it, yes, but if you look at the hundreds of thousands of calls the fire service goes on I am sure stealing an apparatus is too small to calculate, and this whole business we are in is about calculated decisions. Again do what your dept tells you to.

Another question comes to mind and this is more of a volly question, are your mpo's interior ff's if not they werent going in anyway so the point is mute.

In my dept we send 4 engines w/ 3 or 4 guys on each rig, "most of the time" all lines come off first due so we can free up the 3rd mpo to help where needed and the 4th mpo is part of the fast