Photo: Aggressive Laddering

[x242Steve 1]

Photo by: George Rizer/Boston Globe Staff

Photo from a fire today in Chelsea, MA... Yet another great example of aggressive laddering.

[mfc2257 464]

I love seeing that.... But there are still upper floor windows that haven't been laddered.

What frustrates me about jobs I used to see in Westchester is that everyone is waiting on the truck company to come and hope that they throw ground ladders.

It's always been my policy and thought at jobs that as soon as piece of apparatus arrives and it's chauffer has done their primary responsibility then the chauffer needs to begin throwing ground ladders.

For example first due truck arrives and the crew splits to do S&R and Vent. As soon as the chauffer has put the aerial to the roof, they need to start throwing ground ladders. Once water supply is established the engine chauffers need to throw their ground ladders.

I can't tell you how frustrating it is to see apparatus (especially second, third, fourth due) that are staged because their manpower has gone to work, but their chauffer is sitting around with a full bed or rack of ladders while crews operate in a structure with second and third story windows that are still unladdered.

The policy that chauffers must stay with apparatus at all times is a crappy one and a waste of manpower.... They should be throwing ground ladders, assisting the chauffers of apparatus that is being actively used, or falling in with their crews. If their rig needs to be moved in a pinch, someone will be able to do it.... And if it gets scratched in the process (not likely) then insurance will pay for it.

Edited July 16, 2008 by mfc2257

[Monty 35]

At my previous dept, we didn't have assigned companies. It was a department and not a company. Everyone was expected to perform all functions. We were always instructed to ladder every level, every side.

[hudson144 150]

Many times you can't get the "STICK UP" because of wires, location of the structure etc- a few years back in FDMV 2 people were plucked from the 4th floor window sill using a 35' & 39' ground ladder,the court yard IFO the building didn't allow us to utilize the Stick and it was a must to use ground ladders. That picture on #1 is great because it shows how more exits are made via ground ladders not only for the occupants but for us who may get trapped inside and need a way out. I recently saw a aerial platform being set up for a 2 story dwelling fire. Wires in the way etc-this is where size up comes into play and you need to have a plan. Properly locate the truck IFO the fire building and remember to leave room for a 2nd truck. Just because you don't have flames blowing out upon arrival doesn't mean that in time you might be going to an exterior defensive mode. Seen that many times and again because the trucks were properly placed rigs weren't being moved around during the heat of the moment to place themselves where they should have been in the beginning. For those with 2 trucks remember that some trucks have the ground ladders stored in the rear and you need clearance to pull the ladders out from the rear of the truck. This can cause a problem that you don't need. I am sure many other hints and tips can be mentioned here.

* Last week I posted about hazards with A/C units,in this picture look at the 2 A/C units mounted in the 3rd floor windows,are they properly secured? Will they prevent you from getting out that window? What kind of injury will you suffer if that unit fell 3 floors (45 lbs). No good results, pull the units into the apt. instead of out.

Edited July 17, 2008 by hudson144

[firecapt32 282]

Gotta love those Boston jakes they do love to ladder a buiilding. It is nice to see it done with ground ladders. Notice the position of the ladders--at or just below the window sill. Theres building are very common in the Boston area.

Theres a lot to learn from this picture

Hudson the A/C on the first floor wont hurt as much as the other ones would!!!

[traumajunky 5]

The county I live in has 3 trucks for the whole county. West side has a Quint for 235sq miles, Center has a TL for 275sq miles, and East has a straight stick that's about useless for that 215sq miles. Most laddering comes from the engine co's or we get lucky and we can set up a truck on scene, the tallest building in the county is 4 stories. My 2 engines have between them a 35' and 24' aluminum extensions, 2 16' aluminum roof ladders, and 2 attic ladders.

[Future Fireman 4]

Cap, when you say Boston you mean the Boston Area, right? 'Cause Chelsea is not a part of Boston.

Just had to make sure you all knew this is a different city from Boston.

Mike

[hudson144 150]

at my height the 1st floor window could give me a lump or two!

[TAPSJ 30]

Wouldnt you want ladders in numerous place in case of a mayday or an escape or a rescue?

Thomas

[IzzyEng4 427]

The Boston area's methods of laddering date back to the early days before Hayes style aerials (then the modern horse drawn service style two piece aerials) and also the fact that many "triples" aka cheaply built three floor platform housing units were built so close together usually it was hard to get an aerial up. When I have buffed Boston and the "Metro" area, the common practice is for the first arriving engine company to get their 24 footer up. How many times have we overlooked that on our rigs? With limited space, both on the street and in between buildings, sometimes ground ladders is the only way to go. Plus the face with the style of housing there, if the stuff hits the fan, there is an escape route. I have yet to see a building in Boston where any side of a building is not laddered. Besides if your making an interior attack you need every possible escape-way possible. Also to depending on the size of building should determine your laddering it. Sometime one per side is fine, sometimes its more than two.

What is even more amazing is how they will try and put a ladder truck (aerial or tower platform) in any position possible to get it up to the roof.

[Guest]

While it may not be Boston, that whole area is basically "Boston." I've always been impressed with how that whole area ladders buildings so well, It really is their style. Just like you can tell its a LA fire by the roof teams and the helmets, all you'd have to see is a picture of that building with all the ladders and you'd know it came from Boston. I'm almost surprised there weren't more ladders thrown, I've seen some very dense ladder placement in pictures from around there.

[Guest]

A lot of good comments. But, the Ladder Company Chauffeur should NEVER leave the turntable if its available to be used or if it is used to give egress to the roof man. If it does need to be moved communication with the men on the roof MUST be made and confirmed as that may be their only way off. Its a rare sight to see an Engineman interested in laddering a building, but like one of the posts said, the 2nd or 3rd due Engine Company Chauffeur should be attempting to help the situation, either by assisting 1st due ecc with hydrant connections helping stretch the line or god forbid touching the truck's bed of ladders. Many dept's have their own SOP's regarding overall ladder company operations, but one critical thing that so many forget about is providing a second means of egress for the men inside.

As for the AC units, never walk closely to the perimeter of a building if you can help it, especially if you are walking under the location of the fire. I always take the top pane of glass first so the brother's down below get the idea that something else like a window sash may be quickly following suit. Its taught to us in proby school that before exiting a building to lookout and ask if its clear, guys look funny doing it, but so does getting put on a back board with a collar cause you were too cool to ask.

[mfc2257 464]

A lot of good comments. But, the Ladder Company Chauffeur should NEVER leave the turntable if its available to be used or if it is used to give egress to the roof man. If it does need to be moved communication with the men on the roof MUST be made and confirmed as that may be their only way off. Its a rare sight to see an Engineman interested in laddering a building, but like one of the posts said, the 2nd or 3rd due Engine Company Chauffeur should be attempting to help the situation, either by assisting 1st due ecc with hydrant connections helping stretch the line or god forbid touching the truck's bed of ladders. Many dept's have their own SOP's regarding overall ladder company operations, but one critical thing that so many forget about is providing a second means of egress for the men inside.

As for the AC units, never walk closely to the perimeter of a building if you can help it, especially if you are walking under the location of the fire. I always take the top pane of glass first so the brother's down below get the idea that something else like a window sash may be quickly following suit. Its taught to us in proby school that before exiting a building to lookout and ask if its clear, guys look funny doing it, but so does getting put on a back board with a collar cause you were too cool to ask.

I think you were referencing my post. While I don't believe that a 1st due truck company chauffer should "abandon" his/her rig, I think it is a waste for them to be sitting there during the initial moments of a fire attack when they could be throwing ground ladders on the side of the building that they are positioned on. They still have a view of what is going on and are a short distance from their turntable if they need to take quick action. All the while they can be performing other tasks that help to ensure the safety of interior crews while still being available to move the stick if necessary. If due to conditions upon arrival, the stick is usless (powerlines, setback, wagon driver blocking access, etc), then the truck operator needs to fall in with his/her crew and throw ladders, control utilities, S&R, or vent.

[firemoose827 324]

A lot of good comments. But, the Ladder Company Chauffeur should NEVER leave the turntable if its available to be used or if it is used to give egress to the roof man. If it does need to be moved communication with the men on the roof MUST be made and confirmed as that may be their only way off. Its a rare sight to see an Engineman interested in laddering a building, but like one of the posts said, the 2nd or 3rd due Engine Company Chauffeur should be attempting to help the situation, either by assisting 1st due ecc with hydrant connections helping stretch the line or god forbid touching the truck's bed of ladders. Many dept's have their own SOP's regarding overall ladder company operations, but one critical thing that so many forget about is providing a second means of egress for the men inside.

As for the AC units, never walk closely to the perimeter of a building if you can help it, especially if you are walking under the location of the fire. I always take the top pane of glass first so the brother's down below get the idea that something else like a window sash may be quickly following suit. Its taught to us in proby school that before exiting a building to lookout and ask if its clear, guys look funny doing it, but so does getting put on a back board with a collar cause you were too cool to ask.

Great post! You made a few excellent points in regards to roof work and scene safety.

One thing to point out in todays fire service is the use of Towers with remote controls in the bucket too, so the use of the chauffeur to move the ladder from the turn table in most places is obsolete now. Do they have remote control boxes for the straight sticks anywhere? Just curious to know. There are only 2 aerials in my county and we have one of them, a 95' Tower ladder, and it has the remote controls in the bucket but I was curious to know, in my lack of aerial experience, if there was such a thing as remote controls for sticks. Thanks.

[robert benz 344]

Great post! You made a few excellent points in regards to roof work and scene safety.

One thing to point out in todays fire service is the use of Towers with remote controls in the bucket too, so the use of the chauffeur to move the ladder from the turn table in most places is obsolete now. Do they have remote control boxes for the straight sticks anywhere? Just curious to know. There are only 2 aerials in my county and we have one of them, a 95' Tower ladder, and it has the remote controls in the bucket but I was curious to know, in my lack of aerial experience, if there was such a thing as remote controls for sticks. Thanks.

couple of things to remember, manpower dictates if you can leave a firefighter with the truck on the turntable as an sop, most depts dont have that luxuary all the time, unless the aerial is going to be used.

as for "remote control" from the bucket, yes it is a great way to use manpower, but as seen in a few safety video's you can get tunnel vision and get yourself into a bad spot either with wires, fire or the collapse zone, that is why the controls on the turntable OVERRIDE the bucket controls which is why a member should be positioned there to act as another set of eyes.

As for remote controls on aerials, they are out there, we called them creepers a small joystick at the tip that a member once up there could fine tune the aerial placement. It goes against normal safety precautions on an aerial, you should never extend or retract while a member is on the ladder due to the chance of a severe injury to a foot or hand which just happened recently during a fire prevention demo, if i remember correctly a firefighter lost part of his foot when it got wedged between the rungs while he was climbing and the aerial was being extended.

[Guest]

Ed, if you have the ability to use the stick the LCC must remain at his post unless its a fire in the rear of a tenement or a fire proof building where either the reach or the location makes it useless. You do not want to be the guy on the floor above waiting for the LCC to hop back up on the turntable to come and get you. If you need a way out you will need it yesterday, not in the amount of time you have to wait for the reaction of the LCC and the stick itself. As for the Tower Ladder, that LCC needs to stay on the pedestal to be an extra set of eyes for not only the guys in the bucket but for the rest of the building. When you are on the face of a building you may not see the guy one floor up and 3 windows over preparing to jump. I am not sure about the practices anywhere else but in NYC its not recommended to move the aerial with a member on it, only under extreme conditions. But now we are getting off topic.

[mfc2257 464]

Ed, if you have the ability to use the stick the LCC must remain at his post unless its a fire in the rear of a tenement or a fire proof building where either the reach or the location makes it useless. You do not want to be the guy on the floor above waiting for the LCC to hop back up on the turntable to come and get you. If you need a way out you will need it yesterday, not in the amount of time you have to wait for the reaction of the LCC and the stick itself. As for the Tower Ladder, that LCC needs to stay on the pedestal to be an extra set of eyes for not only the guys in the bucket but for the rest of the building. When you are on the face of a building you may not see the guy one floor up and 3 windows over preparing to jump. I am not sure about the practices anywhere else but in NYC its not recommended to move the aerial with a member on it, only under extreme conditions. But now we are getting off topic.

Everyone has their own thoughts on how it should be done. Personally I don't believe that the majority of NYC metro counties (because of BS Home Rule Laws) have a tight enough plan for how fires are handled from an incoming apparatus standpoint.

I believe that a SOP/SOG structure where the stick goes to the roof and every window three stories and under gets laddered regardless of the call is the way that standard response should happen. Thus, during the initial moments of a fire attack the stick gets put to the roof (again standard for 1st & 2nd due truck for sides A & C) and that all the windows on all four sides get laddered right away. This way, if someone is looking to bail from the 2nd or 3rd story, then they've got a ground ladder at the window no questions asked... No waiting for the stick regardless of whether or not the chauffer is at the turntable. The chauffer of these rigs, as well as all the rigs that are onscene and not flowing supply or attack lines OR have their sticks to the building should be throwing ladders to EVERY window. The OIC shouldn't have to order this. It is what should be common practice. If the OIC thinks that given the situation, the truck's chauffer should man the turntable for the duration then fine, he can make that call and tell them to stand fast.

My point goes beyond aggressive laddering and to the theory of apparatus and scene management as a whole. I'm just not overjoyed with the way that the Metro NYC area works from this standpoint. It doesn't mean I don't like the people.... I just think that the metro NYC area is stuck in a home rule rut that compromises progress in emergency response and prohibits the aggressive safety tactics that we're all applauding from the Boston metro area.

Edited July 18, 2008 by mfc2257

[robert benz 344]

Everyone has their own thoughts on how it should be done. Personally I don't believe that the majority of NYC metro counties (because of BS Home Rule Laws) have a tight enough plan for how fires are handled from an incoming apparatus standpoint.

I believe that a SOP/SOG structure where the stick goes to the roof and every window three stories and under gets laddered regardless of the call is the way that standard response should happen. Thus, during the initial moments of a fire attack the stick gets put to the roof (again standard for 1st & 2nd due truck for sides A & C) and that all the windows on all four sides get laddered right away. This way, if someone is looking to bail from the 2nd or 3rd story, then they've got a ground ladder at the window no questions asked... No waiting for the stick regardless of whether or not the chauffer is at the turntable. The chauffer of these rigs, as well as all the rigs that are onscene and not flowing supply or attack lines OR have their sticks to the building should be throwing ladders to EVERY window. The OIC shouldn't have to order this. It is what should be common practice. If the OIC thinks that given the situation, the truck's chauffer should man the turntable for the duration then fine, he can make that call and tell them to stand fast.

My point goes beyond aggressive laddering and to the theory of apparatus and scene management as a whole. I'm just not overjoyed with the way that the Metro NYC area works from this standpoint. It doesn't mean I don't like the people.... I just think that the metro NYC area is stuck in a home rule rut that compromises progress in emergency response and prohibits the aggressive safety tactics that we're all applauding from the Boston metro area.

you of lost me with the home rule statement what do you mean?

[Guest]

Bob, I took that as, my fire, my rules.

Ed, it should not be the IC's decision as to if the LCC abandons his post at the turntable. I guess my point of view is jaded coming from the largest dept in the US. But even outside, it comes down to who is doing what. When you have guys just show up in their own car's as opposed to on the rig things get crazy quick. I dont think its done anywhere but really the chief should have a clipboard and write who is wear doing what. When you are organized you know certain tasks will be completed. When you have the usual chaos and guys who forget about the rest of the operation and focus on the line and getting inside you have a real cluster bomb.

[mfc2257 464]

you  of lost me with the home rule statement  what do you mean?

By home rule, I refer to the Constitution of the State of New York which ultimately protects each municipality's rights and allows them to make "home rules" and prevents the standardization of response for emergency services.  Each municipality or district can say "this is the way we do it".... Right or wrong.

Bob, I took that as, my fire, my rules.  Ed,  it should not be the IC's decision as to if the LCC abandons his post at the turntable.  I guess my point of view is jaded coming from the largest dept in the US.  But even outside,  it comes down to who is doing what.  When you have guys just show up in their own car's as opposed to on the rig things get crazy quick.  I dont think its done anywhere but really the chief should have a clipboard and write who is wear doing what.  When you are organized you know certain tasks will be completed. When you have the usual chaos and guys who forget about the rest of the operation and focus on the line and getting inside you have a real cluster bomb.

roofsopenPlease don't think that I'm arguing with you as we discuss this.  Your opinion is well received and certainly not jaded.  Working for the largest department in the USA brings a totally different but equally valid point of view to the service.In NYC there is a crapshoot as to whether or not the building is 3 or more stories depending on where the units are turning out of.  If the job is in midtown on the 10th or above floor, then the chauffer for a truck can't help much from the turntable, but he can control utilities and the elevator..... But even though you work for the FD that many daydream of being a part of, I'm not referring to FDNY when I make my statements.I'm talking about areas in Westchester, Putnam, Duchess, Rockland, etc etc etc ...where career and vollies mix.... Where some rigs have 2ff's and some have 6ff's... Where we are still waiting for IC's from the first due department to call for apparatus instead of requesting a preplanned second, third, etc alarm... Where just because a department has three wagons a truck and a squad we expect that they will all get out... Where departments respond and someone who is already onscene has to hold their hand as to how to go to work because SOG's and SOP's feed egos and not safety....What I have witnessed as a successful fireground tactic in many mid-atlantic (PA, DE, MD, DC, VA, WV) counties (not necessarily areas with county run departments, but rather where each department in the county subscribes to the same SOP/SOG) is the aggressive operation of the truck companies on a standardized basis where the first and second due trucks on the initial dispatch, combined with the first and second due engines, ensure that the stick goes to a predetermined spot on the roof and the ground ladders that are available are thrown right away.  Every window gets a ladder thrown to it.  The reality is, that properly thown ground ladders in the initial moments of a job provide an ongoing means of egress for FF's.  The stick can only go to one spot at a time and should NEVER be relied upon as the primary means of escape when a ground ladder can remain at a window for the duration of a job.  Ground ladders are under utilized and so is the manpower that can throw them.The picture that started this whole thread is a start in the right direction, but in my mind if it was taken after the second and third due crews arrived than it is actually a failure because the majority of the windows are left without ground ladders thrown to provide emergency egress.

[hudson144 150]

It appears that many depts work differently and as B Benz mentioned manpower may dictate how things are done,in the dept I work for you need everyone you can get to be inside doing what your assigned task is and then if they need to use the stick it is either mentioned via radio to report to your rig or other members are tasked to operate the unit. Use caution for the guy(civilian) who might drive down the street to relocate the rig because he thinks its better on the next block. Yes this did happen! lol

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Excellent photo that can lead to excellent discussion. This picture is an excellent risk management photo...multiple ladders to the upper floors and still offers some additional discussion that Hudson hit on in regard to the AC units. Would love to see a picture of the C and D sides as well to see what is there. There is something to learn from every picture when it comes to size up and operations and I think this picture does a wonderful job.

As far as leaving the turntable...it really depends on the operation. Then again I know of some departments that would rather have an extra set of hands or 2 stare at the apparatus if its not being use or able to be used instead of putting them to good use. If the aerial is going to be used then I would stay with the apparatus. If its a Tower Ladder or Ladder Tower and there are personnel in the bucket..then the person stays at the table to be their extra eyes.

[robert benz 344]

several problems I see, and as mentioned before manpower is at the top of it, if you only have enough to fill in the operations part of the initial response, (f/e, search, hose placement, water supply) then the outside laddering will not get done as is being pushed for here. Is it needed, situations will dictate, fire in the attic, I dont see a big need for ladders below the fire floor, I do need a crew to the roof to vent, basement fire and contained to the basement so far do I need to throw up ladders to every window? I know FF's are searching above, and yes FAST can throw ladders, but...

Also and here is a sore point, SOP/SOG gets a lot of mention, is it realistic in the wording or is it to cover the depts a**?

It is real nice to say do this, this and this, but do you have the manpower on scene to do it?

Or is this why we are seeing more and more multi dept responses to a room and contents fire that we (no dept in particular) handled ourselves just a few years ago.

Ladder skills are one of the least taught skills in the fire service, from selection of, placement (how many times can we move it) to raising, footing, untying the halyard, tying the halyard etc.

It is a great sight when a ladder co throws up a ladder one time, no wasted motion

It is like watching a monkey have sex with a football the rest of the time

[IzzyEng4 427]

Not for nothing, one person can successfully handle raising a 24 foot extension ladder to a second story window or egress. If you think manpower, career or volunteer, throwing up a ground ladder is vital to fire suppression operations especially in an upper floor withing the ladder's reach. Too many times we fall under the impressions that the main attack stairwell is our means of egress and look at the statistics in firefighting, a lot of the tie those stairwells are compromised and our means of egress cut off.

Lets take Engine Company 99 from Anytown Fire Department. The company had a crew of 4 rolling out the door, Officers, the MPO and two firefighters. They find a working fire on scene and one firefighter takes the hydrant. That same firefighter should also be in charge of throwing up the ground ladder before entering the building with his crew. Of course this is in a perfect situation and we know everyone is different. Even if a rescue had to be made prior to suppression, one firefighter has to get that ladder up to an upper floor. If the first arriving company cannot get a ladder raised, then its the job of the second arriving company to do so.

If Joe / Jane Volunteer shows up to his rig and see that an attack line is pulled, as he / she is packing up, they should be looking to see if the ladder was taken off the rig, if not, put it up.

We forget too many times and continue to operate with blinders on. Trust me, I can throw a ladder all day but once those blinders go on, I forget too. We need to practice more and get in the habit of throwing up ground ladders off rigs besides truck companies.

[robert benz 344]

Not for nothing, one person can successfully handle raising a 24 foot extension ladder to a second story window or egress. If you think manpower, career or volunteer, throwing up a ground ladder is vital to fire suppression operations especially in an upper floor withing the ladder's reach. Too many times we fall under the impressions that the main attack stairwell is our means of egress and look at the statistics in firefighting, a lot of the tie those stairwells are compromised and our means of egress cut off.

Lets take Engine Company 99 from Anytown Fire Department. The company had a crew of 4 rolling out the door, Officers, the MPO and two firefighters. They find a working fire on scene and one firefighter takes the hydrant. That same firefighter should also be in charge of throwing up the ground ladder before entering the building with his crew. Of course this is in a perfect situation and we know everyone is different. Even if a rescue had to be made prior to suppression, one firefighter has to get that ladder up to an upper floor. If the first arriving company cannot get a ladder raised, then its the job of the second arriving company to do so.

If Joe / Jane Volunteer shows up to his rig and see that an attack line is pulled, as he / she is packing up, they should be looking to see if the ladder was taken off the rig, if not, put it up.

We forget too many times and continue to operate with blinders on. Trust me, I can throw a ladder all day but once those blinders go on, I forget too. We need to practice more and get in the habit of throwing up ground ladders off rigs besides truck companies.

I will play devils advocate for a second here, engine 99 mpo, officer, nozzle, hydrant so you lost the hydrant man to the hydrant ok I am an officer in a career dept i went to fdny for a month to learn how to be a supervisior what is my position on this hose line oh yea back up a lot of good i do there with all my training who is supervising now??

happens everyday and i shake my head as to how we do it it gets done i want that hydrant man backing up the nozzleman as fast as possible.

can we or should we call for more help to throw ladders yes or maybe we need them for the 10 other little boxes on the sop form that have not been addressed yet.

it is a different fire scene than when I started many years ago.

[IzzyEng4 427]

I will play devils advocate for a second here, engine 99 mpo, officer, nozzle, hydrant so you lost the hydrant man to the hydrant ok I am an officer in a career dept i went to fdny for a month to learn how to be a supervisior what is my position on this hose line oh yea back up a lot of good i do there with all my training who is supervising now??

happens everyday and i shake my head as to how we do it it gets done i want that hydrant man backing up the nozzleman as fast as possible.

can we or should we call for more help to throw ladders yes or maybe we need them for the 10 other little boxes on the sop form that have not been addressed yet.

it is a different fire scene than when I started many years ago.

Very good point, but my rebuttal in this situation is though you are a supervisor, what is your first priority on a minimally staffed engine? Are you going to supervise or act as a firefighter as you are trained to be? Unfortunately we have to wear many different hats on an initial attack but as always the first few minutes are critical. But also, which I forgot to mention and take into consideration is the two-in, two-out policy as well. I don't disagree with your point at all but sometimes some things need to be left on the "back burner" so to speak and the duties at hand done.

Maybe the officer should be the one throwing up the ladder then? What about that then?

So many variables, so little time.