Volunteering: The Purest Form Of Patriotism

[x635 4,066]

I'll be the first to admit that I have some issues with volunteer firefighters and EMT's. I think that their training and fitness levels need to be held to the same level as those who hold the role as career. They also need to be held to the same disciplinary standards as well. And, when they continuously can't get to an emergency in a timely fashion, they need to admit they need help and put pride aside. Most of the afformentioned situations can be solved simply by increasing the pool of volunteers.

However, volunteering is one of the purest forms of being a Patriot. This country was built on people who volunteered to make their country better. Nowadays, we're seeing less and less of that as peoples priorites and focus have shifted.

The volunteer fire and EMS service remains one of the strongest remenants of true community service. Sure, there may be people who do it for self-serving reason, but those people are in the minority. In a volunteer department, you'll find people of all age ranges, from all different backgrounds. I find one of the best parts of the volunteer fire and EMS service is that it introduces young people to community service, and is often the foundation of a solid career path.

Although some volunteer agencies may play up the social club aspect, it's also a great support system for members during times of hardship. Volunteer FF's are usually there for one another regardless, sometimes even more so then the career side. A "boot drive" once a year or a softball tournament is not community service or volunteering. Sure, you're raising funds for a needy orginization, but how are you directly giving back to YOUR community?

How many people in your community are actually INVOLVED, actively, continuously, in the improvement of the commununity. Whether you volunteer for your local ambulance corps, or for Habitat For Humanity, it's my feeling that everyone should be obligated to give back to the community and those less fortunate then us, and not just monetarily.

(NOTE: The title is inaccurate as to my beliefs, I believe dissent is the purest form of patriotism, next to volunteering)

[mvfd2mc 0]

Yes everyone should be expected to serve in some form of civil service as they are able. There are countries all through Europe which still require every man (and some that require every woman too) to serve a minimum of X number of years in the military regardless of physical limitations, they will put you at a desk if that is where you can best serve.

Now for my one problem: Volunteers often dont have the time to be held to the same physical requirements as the paid guys do (they all should have the ability). We dont have multiple days off in a row to get to a gym and work out. We hold jobs that are your regular 9 - 5 and many of us are up and out of our houses well before the sun comes up (4 or 5 AM) and dont get home from work till it is back down (7 or 8 PM) at which point we get changed and quickly go down to our department for drill night or house duty where we very often dont finish up till after 10. Then we still have to go home and take care of work around the house, kids and work left over from our paying job. We then are hopefully in bed by midnight (on a good night) and start all over again in the morning. (not to mention many of us are signed up on a standby ambulance crew multiple nights a week) This doesnt mean that it is impossible for all of us to be as physicly fit as the paid guys but it does severly cut into our time even more.

Yes some businesses are promoting the use of gyms by their employees because studies do show that an employee who has time to work out and relieve stress is a much more productive employee but unless the company gets $$$$$$ to pay for that expense of giving memberships to the employees they aren't going to do it.

Please dont get me wrong however, a firefighter no matter what age should be physicly fit and qualified to actually fight the fire but it is knowing your limitations and isnt that what training is supposed to show you - what your limitations are and what you need to work on. I wouldn't expect a member who weighs 100 pounds soaking wet to take a 2.5" line by themselves but I would the 200 pound body builder. It is all about knowing who you have and working with each others strengths and weaknesses.

That is my two cents, Thank you

[ex-commish 490]

Seth has presented a good topic. I have often said every citizen has an obligation to serve wether it is in the fire department or ems squad, coaching little league, or belonging to other civic organizations. I believe we have become a "what's in it for me society" unlike those who came before us who simply wanted to help. I was never a big fan of JFK but I do agree his quote about asking what you can do for your country and George Bush also made a plea after 9/11 for citizens to volunteer in thier communities. Unfortunately I did not see any significant increase in membership after 9/11.

Besides firefighting and ems one of the most rewarding things I have done was coaching little league baseball. You are not just teaching kids how to play but also how to be men and women and I have seen the product of that as I watch my son and his friends enter his junior year in high school and will be varsity ball players.

[OnTheWheel 43]

Although some volunteer agencies may play up the social club aspect, it's also a great support system for members during times of hardship. Volunteer FF's are usually there for one another regardless, sometimes even more so then the career side. A "boot drive" once a year or a softball tournament is not community service or volunteering. Sure, you're raising funds for a needy orginization, but how are you directly giving back to YOUR community?

Im not sure where you're going Seth. Are you talking about the people who only show up to the boot drive and softball tournament?

I think that being a volunteer FF or EMS is giving back to your community, saving life and property is a nice gift if you ask me. But like I said, I don't see what youre getting at.

As far as a community as a whole I agree, if everyone chipped in someway this world would be a better place. How about those people that EMS transports for a sniffle, let them give an hour for the ride, providing they dont pay for it.

Edited July 14, 2008 by OnTheWheel

[x635 4,066]

Apparently, some people may have misunderstood what I said and read to much into it. So I am going to try and reword it a little.

I am not trying to incite any "Paid Vs Volunteer" anonymosity. I just think that a firefighter should be a firefighter, just like an Volunteer EMT (certification) is equivalent to the Paid EMT. I also don't think it should be used as an excuse for extended response times. That is my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.

My point was that EVERY person who is able to should give back to their community in some shape or form. The volunteer fire service is a shining example of that, however they have some problems which are mostly related to traditon, and in some communities, that affects public safety, which is my opinion so I wanted to put that out there so no one thought that I was intentionally "glorifying" it for the point of gloriying it.

It used to be, way back when, everyone volunteered in some sort of way for their community. There are so many ways to give back, and so many agencies and people that depend on volunteers, and the numbers are declining so rapidly .

Part of making my point about the deficiencies of the volunteer service, is that, although they do have their issues and limitiations, they are a shining example of what everyone should aspire to do to help out in their community. I also think the volunteer fire service has a tremendous internal support system that has proven time and time again to help it's members out, and also has set a lot of people on the course for great success.

Regarding some of the boot drives and softball tournements, anyone can hold a boot or play softball, I was reffering to some of the single specific national charities that some organizations support. While that's all well and good, my point is about the people in the community that don't have dinnner on the table each night, homeless and battered people living in deplorable conditions, no roof over their head, parks that are in poor condition, children without school supplies, and the list goes on and on.....

Think of 9/11 and Katrina and how EVERYONE wanted to help in some way....why can't it be that way all the time, not just in the face of tragedy?

[mvfd2mc 0]

Yes I did

Thank you for the clarification

[Remember585 815]

Think of 9/11 and Katrina and how EVERYONE wanted to help in some way....why can't it be that way all the time, not just in the face of tragedy?

While I agree people were moved by both of these tragedies, there was still a number of a**holes people looking for their payback. Whether it was those with a ton of money looking for a tax break or those looking to make money off of either event.

While I like to remain optimistic about everything in life, there are so many people looking for "theirs" all the time.

Give me 30 members who do it because they WANT TO DO IT FOR THE RIGHT REASONS and kick out all those looking to earn their LOSAP or get other perks. If you want to give your time and earn something in return - GET A 2ND JOB.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Remember585

[x635 4,066]

Once again, I'm NOT talking about the volunteer fire service, merely using it as an example, one that I'm starting to regret given the direction some people are percieving this topic to be.

I am talking about giving back and being a part of the community you live in.

If you want to discuss the volunteer fire service, please start another topic. Thanks!

[exmrvfc 0]

As a 20+ year Volunteer, the only difference that volunteers should be held to is the length of time it takes to complete classes. Other than that, there is no reason for a volunteer to stop at HazMat and FF1. There wil be times that family/work will prevent a class from being taken but not 365 days/year/every year. Once you get past FF1 it is much easier to complete 1-2 classes a year and make yourself a well rounded FF. As you stay in the service these classes will go from "the basics" and move towards officer classes. Ultimately I believe it is up to the leadership of every department to set the example and expectations for its members to continue their training.

As for physical shape, now that I am a 20+ year memebr, I am most likely to die from a heart attack than being trapped/caught in a fire. Since I am also a Dad and Husband, I decided it was time to drop 10-15 pounds and get myself in better shape. This was accomplished with a better diet and moderate excerciie. Nothing that the average person can't do.

Don't let excuses lower the expectations from your members. It will only come back to hurt them and maybe the FF next to them on the scene.

[firemoose827 324]

I am not trying to incite any "Paid Vs Volunteer" anonymosity. I just think that a firefighter should be a firefighter, just like an Volunteer EMT (certification) is equivalent to the Paid EMT. I also don't think it should be used as an excuse for extended response times. That is my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.

I agree with that completely, hence my topic on Training Standards in NYS. Here is the link, tell me what you think about my idea to standardize the training in NYS for ALL firefighters and need to refresh that training on a 3-5 year schedule.

NYS Training Standards Need Change

The training for career guys/gals should be the same for Volunteers, fire is an equal opportunity killer, so we should train like our lives depend on it. Good topic.

I agree too, everyone should pitch in and help out with community affairs, it doesnt take much and if many people helped out the work would be minimal. The problem you have now is not ENOUGH people volunteer in their communities and therefore the work needed to be done is greater for those that DO choose to help, this deters people from volunteering I think.

[Guest MVFD334]

Once again, I'm NOT talking about the volunteer fire service, merely using it as an example, one that I'm starting to regret given the direction some people are percieving this topic to be.

I am talking about giving back and being a part of the community you live in.

If you want to discuss the volunteer fire service, please start another topic. Thanks!

You used an example that is a very sensitive subject, and pointed out downfalls in it. So understand why it strikes a nerve in some of us. Everyone who is in it is already doing a public service. Getting off that subject because its not worth the aggravation..

When people come out and give up their time for any cause, it should be taken with gratitude. Its only a few percantage of people, and usually always the same people that do it. Saying that 1 event as opposed to another like a national charity, the people have commited so why ask more of them, or imply that its not as good as another.. I would rather support a local cause where I can see the outcome, than something that on the larger scale that has to much overhead and little goes to the people who need it.

Katrina, 9/11 and other tragedies show that people know how to come together its called being a human being, but too many people abuse or make profit from these events and that ruins everything. Yes we live in the "whats in it for me society", and I dont blame alot of them for beleiving that, because with all the money we getted stripped of throughout the year, there should be no reason for anyone to be hungry or needy. But with all that said, I enjoy the time I give back, it can be hard but the end result is usually worth it. And I dont discourage anyone from it, so long as they do it no matter their reason.

[x635 4,066]

You used an example that is a very sensitive subject, and pointed out downfalls in it. So understand why it strikes a nerve in some of us. Everyone who is in it is already doing a public service. Getting off that subject because its not worth the aggravation..

It's not a sensitive subject if people acknowledge and accept their shortcomings, and work to fix them. My statement applies to a small minority of volunteer FF's. The reason I brought Volunteer FF's into the subject is because I think they set an excellent example of community service, and are very dedicated and provide a crucial service to the areas they protect. They truly keep the heart of America beating. The volunteer fire system is not flawless by any means, but it's not going anywhere and I think the new generations currently making their way into the ranks will eventually transform the volunteer fire service as we know it. It's the dedication to the community and American nature to give back that many of us should show respect the volunteer FF's for.....I know I wouldn't want to get out of my bed on my day off at 3AM especially in winter to go fight a fire, or spend nights and weekends training and maintaining equipment at the firehouse away from my family. I give VFF's a ton of credit- they are probaly some of the most dedicated people in America.

I still don't understand why I struck a "nerve". It seems to me that you can say a million nice things about volunteer FF's, yet one constructive criticism is mentioned and automatically it's labeled a "bash"- to SOME. This is not paid vs volly, because I don't believe in that. Both sides have serious problems, with #1 being certain peoples egos and prides and the need to beat their chest.

It's an insult that no one is reading the words that I am typing. Am I not making myself clear? Do I need a translator or something?

[Remember585 815]

I still don't understand why I struck a "nerve". It seems to me that you can say a million nice things about volunteer FF's, yet one constructive criticism is mentioned and automatically it's labeled a "bash"- to SOME. This is not paid vs volly, because I don't believe in that. Both sides have serious problems, with #1 being certain peoples egos and prides and the need to beat their chest.

It's an insult that no one is reading the words that I am typing. Am I not making myself clear? Do I need a translator or something?

Do I need a translator? I was pretty clear - and don't appreciate your snide replies. I made a point that people "gave" after two of our country's worst disasters, only to get something back. My 2nd point was a fire service comment - but you laid the groundwork for that train of thought.

Look at all the "heroes" from Hollywood who "rushed" to help New Orleans after Katrina. Some of them were quoted saying that their publicist told them they should go.

The real "heroes" in all of that were those that responded and helped, whether fire, police, EMS or just good natured citizens. The other "heroes" are those that have chosen to not write it all off, move back there and rebuild their lives.

So to you I say - "Settle down Beavis."

[Guest MVFD334]

"And, when they continuously can't get to an emergency in a timely fashion, they need to admit they need help and put pride aside."

That comment has absolutly nothing to due with the topic in which was started. That is where my problem lies.. If you had stated constructive criticism like "although they have some problems, or they might not be perfect" That is constructive criticism. That is why I have a problem with it.. The rest of your post was understandable. Its like telling a person that just lost a 100lbs.. "Well you look great, but your still fat."

[Doc 11]

Going back to Seth's probable intention with this post, I feel that contributing to the community is a big part of being an American. There are a lot of currrent events and social issues that I feel are exacerbated by the lack of community and people not looking out for each other. That episode in New Haven with the guy hit by a car.... people standing around, gawking, nodding their thick skulls but doing NOTHING. Neighborhoods where people can't trust their neighbors because they never tried to talk to them. '

There are also some interesting examples of people taking this concept to heart. That guy last year who used his privately owned pumper to protect his and a half dozen or more houses from a fast moving wildfire in Calibornia... then the people making their own fire break just a few weeks ago... ANY other country and they'd be standing around shaking their heads, saying, "When's THE GOVERNMENT going to save me?" Yes, they saved their own property, but they didn't stop there. They went on to help those around them. It should be in the nature of all Americans to lend a hand in a time of need. Also, during and after the flooding in the midwest... what did we see on the news? Neighbors helping neighbors. Sure the FEMA folks and National Guard was there, but prior to those agencies accessing the worst hit areas, it was volunteers sand-bagging and using their Bassmaster Boats to help their neighbors out. They could have just stayed home or drove to their Aunt's house on higher ground.

It goes for Little League and Pop Warner coaches, Community activity programs, soup kitchens, the united way, food pantries, and all manner of community volunteerism. Heck, I'd even say it goes beyond volunteerism and just to community involvment in general. There are plenty of crappy jobs out there (poorly paid, no benefits, poor staffing, bad working conditions, any combination of those) that benefit the community and those people deserve the credit for taking the hit for the rest of us. If you care about your community you work in it or interact with it in a positve way. Otherwise, you're just there. I know it's a lot harder now, with the taxes and costs of living skyrocketing. There are so many demands on our time and energy and so many things competing for it. It's easy to just drive down the parkways and back every day, hide in your climate controlled McMansion, only leaving on the weekends to get the kids to soccer and ballet, or to storm through the mall pissing and griping about all the bumpkins in your way and how the dry cleaner only opens at 9:00 AM making it so damned difficult to get the caviar stains off your $300.00 dress pants before that important meeting in midtown. But a lot of why people say they moved up here was the "quality of life". That means a lot of different things to a lot of people. For some it just means the taxes were low enough that they could finally afford a home. But for a lot of people it meant more than that. It meant good schools with after-school programs - dependent on volunteers and involved parents, community recreation - with volunteer coaches, umpires and business sponsors, and good neighborhoods full of people who actually give a damn that the place is safe and not a dump. Any level of involvment improves things for the rest of us.

Here's something I've noticed about the role of community involvment in our country. The recent ruling by the Supreme Court on the 2nd Amendment relates to this in a big way.

What other country in the world preseves the right of the people to undo their own government by force if neccessary? The second amendment isn't just a right. it specifically spells out a responsibility... run it right or be prepared to gun it down yourself. It's a responsibility and a very clear indication of what "For the People and by The People" really means. It means if the very government we have formed screws up, it could be up to THE PEOPLE to fix it for the people. We don't have to wait for the U.N. to show up and save us from our nasty monarchy or tyrant. We don't have to wait for the French Foreign Legion to show up and be our heroes. It's our duty as Americans to fix it ourselves. That militia that our founding fathers were talking about wasn't the National Guard or Army Reserves as we know it today or any other military organization under the command of a chief executive. It was farmers, store owners, laborers, teachers and businessmen armed and taught the rudaments of combat using the guidelines of Von Steuben's Drill. It was the non-professional capability to protect the community that didn't rely on executive orders or acts of congress. It's that level of responsibility to ones community that Thomas Jefferson spoke of when he said, "We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate. " it was based in participation and not just in voting and serving in times of war. It meant that if this nation was going to work, it was going to be because everybody did their part, especially in times of need. The basic component then was the community - the bucket brigade and the deputized constablary, the night watchman. Now it's a lot bigger, but still the same in many ways.

You're either somebody or some body. I know that within the Town of Fishkill, population 20,000+ there is a community, and then there is THE community. THE community are the people who make my trips to the bank an hour's conversation, or a quick stop at the Sportman's Deli a lunch hour. Anywhere you go, you're bumping into people you need to talk to. It's the fact that I can't drive down main street without waving at somebody or being waved at. It's not about dropping names or popularity contests - it's about the shared sleepless nights on standby, the hours spent up to our hips in water pulling portapumps around, sitting in the EOC trying to figure out where that requested county bus went; the unique experiences that community involvement beyond participating in rush hour traffic provides. It's the shared understanding that when the S*&t hits the fan, we'll be there, AGAIN, watching out for each other and even the ones who only care that they make the 6:15 to Grand Central in the morning. When people stop giving a damn about their community you get... Northeast DC, Compton, you get Newark: places where a scream in the alley or the sounds of shots fired means somebody better call the cops, but not me cuz I don't wanna get involved.

Sorry. Rant over.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

You do not need to be a volunteer in order to be patriot nor is it the "purist form of patriotism":

-Voting in all elections, state, federal, local, school board whatever is being a patriot, using a freedom that our forefathers fought so long and hard for is more patriot than volunteering a few hours a week.

-Upholding and swearing by the constitution in-spit of all the people that seek to destroy it is more patriot.

-Dying in the name of this country and our freedom is a much higher degree of patriot than volunteering.

-Working for a change that not only positively effects you but those around you.

-And finally dissent against the government and standing up for what you believe in is more patriot than volunteering.

I know people who were born in other countries and have be come legal citizens who are more patriotic than some of the volunteer fire fighter or citizens who were born here I know because they uphold the constitution, worked for a change, voted in every election they could and fought and died for my freedom.

Edited July 15, 2008 by bvfdjc316

[jack10562 414]

Sorry. Rant over.

Good RANT. Well put.

[x635 4,066]

I'm sorry I brought the volunteer fire service into this. I should have just left it as a compliment, and censored the other portion of my opinion. I was just trying to spotlight the volunteer fire service as an excellent community organization, that has its flaws just like any other orginization. I expressed the other portion of my opinion to point out the flaws that could be solved if more people volunteer. I should have been clearer, and am upset that some people took it the wrong way.

So please, let's keep this on topic as it relates to giving back to your community.

I apologize to anyone I offended.

[DOC22 1]

Not only is it a form of patriotism, but volunteer Fire Fighters are a long time part of our Nation's Heritage, going back to the early days of Thomas Jefferson, if memory serves me correctly. Been a long time

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Not only is it a form of patriotism, but volunteer Fire Fighters are a long time part of our Nation's Heritage, going back to the early days of Thomas Jefferson, if memory serves me correctly. Been a long time

It was actually Benjamin Franklin who started the first volunteer fire company in Pennsylvania.

[Goose 188]

The highest and purest form of patriotism has been and always will be serving your country in any branch of the armed forces. Period.

As far as volunteering is concerned, it’s patriotic on some level but not always pure. Look at the emergency services. Too man incentives (the only incentive should be to serve your community) and inconsistency in protection/responses have really watered it down over recent years.

Likewise, because I get compensated for what I provide to a community, that doesn’t make me any less of a servant or patriot. I would actually argue we come far closer to being selfless and patriotic civil servants than many volunteers.

[DOC22 1]

It was actually Benjamin Franklin who started the first volunteer fire company in Pennsylvania.

Thanks, Jacob, my memory for American History isn't what it used to be. LOL

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Thanks, Jacob, my memory for American History isn't what it used to be. LOL

Dont worry about it, not very many people remember how often the ideas and works of Benjamin Franklin are used around them.

[Bnechis 3,961]

It was actually Benjamin Franklin who started the first volunteer fire company in Pennsylvania.

Was it patriotic or capitalistic. Ben Franklin started the 1st vol. fire company to protect the 1st fire insurance company in America, the one he started weeks earlier.

I love how we forget critical events in history. Another historical fact: Boston had a paid "Fire Watch" 100 years before Franklin started the Friendship volunteer fire company.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Bnechis

[Guest]

Was it patriotic or capitalistic. Ben Franklin started the 1st vol. fire company to protect the 1st fire insurance company in America, the one he started weeks earlier.

dead on, the free masons did many great things, but for the wrong reasons and we look at the today as heros, "fathers" of the country...if they were around today you'd all be calling them sly, sneaky, and full of...

[firemoose827 324]

The highest and purest form of patriotism has been and always will be serving your country in any branch of the armed forces. Period.

As far as volunteering is concerned, it’s patriotic on some level but not always pure. Look at the emergency services. Too man incentives (the only incentive should be to serve your community) and inconsistency in protection/responses have really watered it down over recent years.

Likewise, because I get compensated for what I provide to a community, that doesn’t make me any less of a servant or patriot. I would actually argue we come far closer to being selfless and patriotic civil servants than many volunteers.

So what you are saying is that all the "Militia" that "Volunteered" to fight for our freedom are not considered Patriots....But all the teenagers that enlist in todays Armed Forces with the promise of $30,000 for college and job placement in the field of your choice complete with training (All Incentives by the way...) are MORE patriotic?? I dont get that.

Also, another point I see you make about volunteers receiving "Too many Incentives..." You are saying its OK for a volunteer to loose their life saving the life of a stranger.....But its a BAD thing for that community to try and offer some sort of incentive, or GIFT to those that give of themselves selflessly as a token of their appreciation for the brother they lost ?????

Im both a Professional EMT and a Volunteer Firefighter/EMT and I see FAR more acts of selfless duty to community, friends, neighbors and family from the volunteers I serve with than ANY paid professional I know....and Im talking about the complete package here gentlemen. I have also volunteered to build homes for "Habitat For Humanity" and noticed the "professionals" that were helping like carpenters and electricians, do only the BARE MINIMUM to get the job done while volunteers like myself went above and beyond to make sure the home was safe, sound, and comfortable....Its all about the HEART of the person and the sense of duty to their community and the people they live with, and the fact they seek nothing in return other than a smile and a friendly conversation. The "Patriots" that left their farms, stores, businesses and families behind to pick up the rifle and man the line to defend our country expecting nothing in return but the freedom of a nation, without training in military tactics or even shooting a rifle, are far more patriotic than someone pretending to be in todays society because they work more hours on the ambulance to get more overtime and be able to buy that "Nintendo WI" Even faster....

Sorry....End of MY rant!! lol Its all Doc's fault for inspiring me with his post!

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

We may condemn there actions and tactics now but back when it counted this men stood up what they believed in and enacted a change whose ripples are still being heard.

In 250 years, how many people will be remembering/condemning our actions.

[Guest]

very good points on your rant moose!

a patriot is a person that works for their people, vollie fd/vac, aux. police, peace officers, even crossing guards...we all help keep ourselves and our families and friend safe.

quite frankly i'd rather people in my life learn cpr, bls and vollie for a vac or learn firefighting and join a vfd than go into the armed forces and learn to blow up an entire country, and even then some of those army people are volunteers.

if you don't volunteer (and are able to) - even to coach a little league team or a pee-wee football game, you have become useless to your country. it's the basis of the country, althoug it might have started with hidden meanings. but take away the hidden meanings, and vounteering really is something to be proud of.

[Guest]

im a volly and i can agree with this some dept.. need to step up alittle

[OnTheWheel 43]

You do not need to be a volunteer in order to be patriot nor is it the "purist form of patriotism":

-Voting in all elections, state, federal, local, school board whatever is being a patriot, using a freedom that our forefathers fought so long and hard for is more patriot than volunteering a few hours a week.

-Upholding and swearing by the constitution in-spit of all the people that seek to destroy it is more patriot.

-Dying in the name of this country and our freedom is a much higher degree of patriot than volunteering.

-Working for a change that not only positively effects you but those around you.

-And finally dissent against the government and standing up for what you believe in is more patriot than volunteering.

I know people who were born in other countries and have be come legal citizens who are more patriotic than some of the volunteer fire fighter or citizens who were born here I know because they uphold the constitution, worked for a change, voted in every election they could and fought and died for my freedom.

Good points!

Im not clear on the last, are you encouraging people to disagree with the government? or just to speak up if they do? I may be misreading it.