Volunteer Fuel Reimbursement Act

[gamewell45 258]

I stand by my resistance to shifting the costs of providing a local service to the state as a whole. If my fire district wants to provide compensation to its members, fine, let them put it into their budget and I'll pay that nominal increase to my taxes. I should not, however, have to subsidize the activities of another department that chooses not to address the issue itself. This also has nothing to do with the fire service - I'd be just as resistant if this was any other purpose and I was subsidizing another part of the state.

Chris, i have no problem shifting the costs to the fire district, however if we do that, then by all rights other programs the state provides to local communities, such as state aid for public schools, social programs and other "pork projects" that benefit a town or region should likewise be absorbed by the towns and cities.

[GAW6 66]

How come I don't see anyone on here complaining about the Medicaid system; have you seen the commercial on TV where the parents talk about how their child gets taken care of for FREE??? Or the segment that Eyewitness News had on the other morning about the State paying people for sending their kids to school and attending parent-teacher conferences??? That is what disgusts me about where my tax dollars are going - not a measly $500 tax CREDIT going to volunteers.

[Guest MVFD334]

How come I don't see anyone on here complaining about the Medicaid system; have you seen the commercial on TV where the parents talk about how their child gets taken care of for FREE??? Or the segment that Eyewitness News had on the other morning about the State paying people for sending their kids to school and attending parent-teacher conferences??? That is what disgusts me about where my tax dollars are going - not a measly $500 tax CREDIT going to volunteers.

or how bout the expenses ran up by our elected officials going on vacations, all the cocktail and dinner parties.....

How much money per household would be spent on this bill? I saw a number in this thread about 125million, was that referring to the estimated cost of covering the tax credit?

[gamewell45 258]

How come I don't see anyone on here complaining about the Medicaid system; have you seen the commercial on TV where the parents talk about how their child gets taken care of for FREE??? Or the segment that Eyewitness News had on the other morning about the State paying people for sending their kids to school and attending parent-teacher conferences??? That is what disgusts me about where my tax dollars are going - not a measly $500 tax CREDIT going to volunteers.

What are we supposed to do with these children who have no medical benefits? Deny them treatment and possibly have them get into a life threatening situation? Somehow that goes against the grain of a civilized society. I also happen to think that $500.00 is not a measly amount of money. Its sure better then what we now have.

[GAW6 66]

What are we supposed to do with these children who have no medical benefits? Deny them treatment and possibly have them get into a life threatening situation? Somehow that goes against the grain of a civilized society. I also happen to think that $500.00 is not a measly amount of money. Its sure better then what we now have.

What about those children who have WORKING parents but may not have health benefits at their jobs? Bet they have to pay doctors "out of their pocket". When I had my children 20+ years ago, insurance did not cover "well baby care", so every time I took them to the doctor for check-ups, vaccines, etc., it came "out of our pocket".

The way I am understanding it is, you are not getting handed $500, you are getting a $500 deduction on your State income tax. That's why I said "measly", because to me a $500 tax deduction is not a tremendous amount like some are making it sound and that it is going to be such "a huge burden on the taxpayers".

[gamewell45 258]

What about those children who have WORKING parents but may not have health benefits at their jobs? Bet they have to pay doctors "out of their pocket". When I had my children 20+ years ago, insurance did not cover "well baby care", so every time I took them to the doctor for check-ups, vaccines, etc., it came "out of our pocket".

The way I am understanding it is, you are not getting handed $500, you are getting a $500 deduction on your State income tax. That's why I said "measly", because to me a $500 tax deduction is not a tremendous amount like some are making it sound and that it is going to be such "a huge burden on the taxpayers".

The health benefit issue is really off topic so i don't want to get into it but i'd be happy to debate it with you in another thread specifically on this topic.

I believe that the $500 is real money; just like the $200 tax credit volunteers got this past year was real money.

[ajsbear 11]

From what I've read about the big it's a TAX CREDIT. That means when you figure out your tax liability to the state reduce iit by $500. That's the simple way of putting it.

What about those children who have WORKING parents but may not have health benefits at their jobs? Bet they have to pay doctors "out of their pocket". When I had my children 20+ years ago, insurance did not cover "well baby care", so every time I took them to the doctor for check-ups, vaccines, etc., it came "out of our pocket".

The way I am understanding it is, you are not getting handed $500, you are getting a $500 deduction on your State income tax. That's why I said "measly", because to me a $500 tax deduction is not a tremendous amount like some are making it sound and that it is going to be such "a huge burden on the taxpayers".

[Guest alsfirefighter]

What makes you think that I don't take issue with the medicaid system, or welfare or any other waste. The fact is to alleviate some of the problems that lead to people needing that you have to put money elsewhere. Just like I alluded to with crime. You don't fight crime by building more prisons which it may still be, at one time was the largest budget item in the state. You fight crime by trying to end the socio economic factors that cause it. As far as your health care comment, I now of working people that use the health care plus system for their children who work because where they are doesn't have healthcare benefits.

And as someone else has already stated, some of you need to calm down and not take it personally. That's the entire issue whenever any discussion takes place involving any volunteer emergency service member, whether its really needed or not. Emotion has nothing to do with it. Its not personal and just because someone doesn't agree with it or brings up other issues that occur doesn't mean they are anti-volunteer or anything else. No one holds a gun to anyones head to do anything.

As far as looking at it that it reduces your tax burden to the state by $500. OK, but that is $500 somewhere else that has to be made up. I'm one of the few that if my school district explains why they need to do something and it is beneficial to the kids of the district I am for it. Do I like it when the state assists with funding...yes. Pay the teachers well with fair raises...yes they will invest it back into my kids. But if you want to make the argument, then how about a tax break for all NY'ers by getting rid of the gas tax to lower fuel prices...FOR EVERYONE! How about the people that work 2 jobs to make ends meet...why don't they get a break for fuel as well. Or the single widowed mother struggling to make it. What makes us so special?

[gamewell45 258]

I don't recall ever being compensated as a volunteer in my 28 years. When I first joined all we recieved was a dinner once a year. The company picnic we also had came out of our own pockets and when you died your family recieved a benefit from the benevolent association. I will agree over time certain perks have been introduced but to say we have always been compensated is simply not true.

HFD you are so correct; when i became a volunteer almost 33 years ago, we received absolutely nothing except as you mentioned a death benefit which your estate received from the BA. The district gave us nothing for many years; of course we didn't expect anything, however the introduction of some perks (LOSAP mainly) was a nice gesture by the district to say "thanks" for our efforts. Plenty of districts outside the suburbs to this day give their volunteers nothing, including no LOSAP program.

[helicopper 1,050]

Chris, i have no problem shifting the costs to the fire district, however if we do that, then by all rights other programs the state provides to local communities, such as state aid for public schools, social programs and other "pork projects" that benefit a town or region should likewise be absorbed by the towns and cities.

You're right! A lot of "pork" projects have no business being funded by the entire state when they benefit only a small portion thereof and I do object to many of them.

As for school district aid or Medicaid they are social programs benefitting many many more people than the proposed tax credit for volunteer fire. They are also well researched and definitely do what they are created to do. There's no research that says the tax credit for fuel consumption will have any improvement on the fire service. The formulas for state aid to local schools are also hotly contested and debated with almost annual changes based upon actual research and population changes.

Good point, thanks for bringing it up!

[Bnechis 3,961]

There's no research that says the tax credit for fuel consumption will have any improvement on the fire service.

The main problem is this is not about the fire service, its about this legislator trying to buy votes (which they all do). If he gets re-elected it worked, it does not matter to the politicians if it actually helps or hurts fire protection.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Yes there are more volunteers and VFD's. The 10 Largest career depts in NYS protect 55% of the population. There are another 90 career and combo depts.

And you're right this is not about career or volunteer, its about who should pay for fire protection.

Are you counting FDNY and the population they serve into the 55%?

[ex-commish 490]

The fact that we are having this conversation on fuel supports my belief that those we elect are selling us out. They are so out of touch with the working class it's pathetic. And the reason is they have become too comfortable. Talk about perks...Charlie Rangel who is a Congress man in NYC leases an Escalade at the cost of $777.00 per month which we pay for and he is one of many and I am sure the gas used is paid for by us as well. I have sent several FOIL requests to both Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of the House and also Nita Lowey to see how much is spent total on members of the House of Reps with thier lease cars and have not recieved any response. Stands to reason why they have had approx 40 hearings on alternate energy uses and nothing has been accomplished. They don't have to pay for thier own gas so it's not an issue for them.

The US gives away approx 7 Billion dollars per year to other countries for resources we have right here in the US. Besdies more drilling there are other options on the table such as natural gas, wind, and solar. I have been following a person named T. Boone Pickens who is an oil man in Texas who recently testified to Congress about alternative energy uses. I invite all of you to visit his website at:

http://www.pickensplan.com/

Read his bio and his plan. Maybe he has motives as well but if whatever he proposes results in paying less at the pump I think it is worth looking into.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Are you counting FDNY and the population they serve into the 55%?

Why wouldn't I? FDNY is a career dept and NYC's population is counted as part of NYS

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Why wouldn't I? FDNY is a career dept and NYC's population is counted as part of NYS

Although you are correct FDNY is a case study to itself. Its population served #'s are so far from the norm that it inflates the 55% figure somewhat. Consider that the #2 population served is Buffalo with 328,123, you see how FDNY's million or so inflate the #'s. Do the math without FDNY and use the 11th career dept. The average population served of depts with all paid is only 47,408. My all Volunteer dept on Long Island serves 47,204 as per the 2000 census.. The fact is that career depts. make up a small part of the firefighting service in NY state. My #'s had 45 all career depts. and 47 mixed combo. Thats only 5% of the 1,824 fire depts. in NY State.

And for the record I could care less about the gas reimbursement.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Ladder47

[JFLYNN 681]

An interesting related issue seems to have come up here, which is the numbers of career vs. volunteer

Firefighters in NYS, and the amount of work they do (amount of service they provide).

The number of career Firefighters in NYS is fairly easy to measure- there are approximately 25,000 total, with, I believe, approximately 11,000 in NYC, so 14,000 total outside NYC.

FASNY states that there are 116,000 volunteer Firefighters in NYS.

Therefore, excluding NYC, the percentage of volunteer vs. career personnel is 90/10.

Including NYC, the percentage is 18/82.

*Feel free to check my numbers- I think they are accurate but I did this quickly and I wouldn't bet my life on it.

Anyway, I BELIEVE that the 10% or 18% of career Firefighters, whichever number you choose to use, protects the overwhelming majority of NYS residents (much higher than the 55% number previously mentioned). Also, I believe that the smaller number of career Firefighters performs a far greater amount of service than the larger number of volunteer Firefighters, however you choose to measure "service" or "work", be it alarms, runs, structure fires, all fires, etc. Years ago, I was told that the 10% of career Firefighter in NYS outside NYC extinguish 80-90% of all structural fires outside NYC. I don't have any direct evidence for this- I believe it could be gotten from OFPC, but I don't have the time or inclination to research this right now. Maybe someone reading this has access to this info., perhaps Bnechis...

What's my point? I'm sure some of you will say it's an anti-volunteer one. It isn't. My point is that, to have an honest, intelligent, RATIONAL discussion about any controversial issue, we must first educate ourselves about the FACTS. I feel that on this site, there are a lot of individuals who are versed in the facts concerning this and other issues discussed here, and a lot more who have only a very cursory knowledge of the issues at hand, but they feel free to post arguments to suit their own personal situation (the way they want things to be). Their argument is not based on fact. It is not a rational argument. It is an emotional one.

It's a free country and we are all entitled to our opinion, no matter how wrong it may be. I visit this site periodically and sometimes post, however, before long, I lose patience due to the numerous people who post their opinions here as if they were fact, and get isnulted when their incorrect opinion is refuted with facts. So, I go away for a while.

To all of you younger guys out there I'll say this. Information is a good thing. Just be careful about where you get your info. The internet is a great tool, however one problem with forums like this is that people can post completely inaccurate info. as if it were gospel, and there is really no editing, such as you would have in a well known magazine, or in a textbook.

Be careful who you take your information from. Ask yourself- what is this person's background and their motivation related to the issue at hand? Don't be fooled by a confident swagger, or someone's age, years of service, or the size of their mustache'...many people "just don't know what they don't know", hey, maybe I'm one of them? Be skeptical.

Keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut for as long as possible.

And, oh yeah, q-tip...

[Bnechis 3,961]

Although you are correct FDNY is a case study to itself. Its population served #'s are so far from the norm that it inflates the 55% figure somewhat.

If you want to remove one end of the bell curve, then the only way to even it is to take the 337 FD's that protect towns and villages with less than 1,000 in population. If each has 40 members, thats 1,348 members. Also lets consider how far out from the norm we are talking about.....if each dept. own 2 engines thats 674 engines to protect about 150,000 people. we protect 50% of that population with 5 engines. Does this mean that thrre are 664 too many engines (I dont think so).

This would also mean that an engine exists for every 222 residents (average). If FDNY had an engine for every 222 residence, they would need 36,072 engine companies.

Wow. maybe consolidation is a good thing.

Also maybe another reason that so many VFD's are having trouble with manpower is we have way to many depts trying to staff way to many rigs.

Consider that the #2 population served is Buffalo with 328,123, you see how FDNY's million or so inflate the #'s. Do the math without FDNY and use the 11th career dept. The average population served of depts with all paid is only 47,408.

Don't know where you got your 47,408 #, but your way off. The population of the 10 largest career coverage area (not including FDNY) is 1,267,577. That means the average is 126,757 almost 3x your figure.

The fact is that career depts. make up a small part of the firefighting service in NY state. My #'s had 45 all career depts. and 47 mixed combo. Thats only 5% of the 1,824 fire depts. in NY State.

yes we all agree that the number of career FD's is far out numbered by VFD's. The question is how many people are protected by what. I dont know your number source, but there are 102 depts that have union members (some all career many combo). And yes its only about 5% of the depts. But like I said the top 10 alone protect more than 55% of the population and if you consider that 20% of the 1,824 departments combined protect only 0.9% of the population.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Bnechis

[spin_the_wheel 460]

The only report I have from the OFPC is an older one from 1995. A few interesting points, NYC makes up 40.7 of the states population so when you include FDNY into any survey its going to spike the results. In fact the reports from the OFPC always separate FDNY (nyc) from the rest of state when making their charts, stats ect..

That said, as for fires, the top 7 counties for all fires in 1995 (structure, Vehicle, and other fire) were Suffolk-9764, Erie-5802, Westchester-5394, Monroe-4911, Nassau 4808, Onondaga-2918, and orange-2689. I would say most of these Counties are Volunteer counties. i cant see how when its all said and done that 10% of career f/f's are putting out 80-90% of the fires.

Top 5 Counties population wise, Suffolk-1,321,864, Nassau-1,287,348, Erie-968,532, Westchester-874,866, Onondaga-468,973. Again mostly Volunteer Counties.

Bottom line is you can proabably sway your stats to strengthen any argument , no matter what side your trying to push, look at how politicians spin facts and figures.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Ladder47

[ex-commish 490]

Just one question...does it really matter how many vol or career there is or who protects more or who does more, etc? Shouldn't it matter that the end of the day we are home safe with our families? I think there are more pressing issues we are and will be facing.