Rye firefighters union calls for increased staff

[Goose 188]

Unless of course my esteemed village board decides to renew that contract. I think that 800+ grand could be better spent in hiring 6 additional guys and running 24/7. I wouldn't be oppose to combining RFD and RBFD as long as you've got 3-4 guys on each piece of equipment and career leadership that would obviously oversee the career guys but also to work with the vollie contingent.

Edited June 27, 2008 by Goose

[Remember585 815]

I don't know what the exact number of Interior Firefighters is in Peekskill, but I find it VERY hard to believe that it would only be 40.

I get that the ISO calls for 36 volunteers per incident, but to me that is overkill 90% of the time.

Let's face it, most calls we all do are nothing more then "clipboard calls."

On both sides of the fence, paid and volunteer, most times a response is scaled back once information is provided saying it is a false alarm or something simple to handle. One rig with 3 or 4 people should be enough to mitigate most calls we respond to, regardless of whether or not those on board are getting paid to be there or not.

The one thing, or one word, that is going to bite us all in the a** one day is - ASSUMING.

If we assume personnel are coming but have no way to actually guarantee it - someone's going to end up on a chopping block!

[x242Steve 1]

Rye Brook and Rye could co exist since they are both small departments and share a small boundary

For those of you not familiar with the area, Rye and Rye Brook have one border, on Ridge Street at St. Mary's Cemetery<-- Link...

Link-->Here is another Google map illustrating the distance from the Rye Brook firehouse (Point B ) to the far Southwest border of Rye at the Village of Mamaroneck line (Point A)... The route I plotted takes you entirely through Rye Brook and Rye and does not use any highways. Just wanted to illustrate the sheer size of a hypothetical Rye/Rye Brook Fire District. Feel free to use this map to form your own opinions on the matter!

Reason for edits: Typos and automatic smiley removed.

Edited June 29, 2008 by 242steve

[Bnechis 3,961]

I get that the ISO calls for 36 volunteers per incident, but to me that is overkill 90% of the time.

ISO's manning uses an average. So a Dept that gets 50 volunteers at nights and weekends, but only 4 mid day might actually make the 36 (average) depending on the number of calls at those times. Its not perfect, but insurance ratings are based on statistics and not what is needed on a specific call. They also require more personnel to cover a response since most depts do not know how many will actually show up.

[Raz 14]

I don't know what the exact number of Interior Firefighters is in Peekskill, but I find it VERY hard to believe that it would only be 40.

John, trust me on this one.

Their fire chief said he had 60 interior FF's in March. In May, he said he had 90. Don't you find it funny that while every other department in the country is down on volunteers, Peekskill apparently had a hell of a recruitment drive in one month and pulled 30 out of their a**? I mean, regardless of your thoughts on the matter, increasing your numbers by 50% in a span of under 40 days should raise a few red flags in anyone with half a brain. Meanwhile, I believe they only fit tested 60 something firefighters for masks. Subtract the paid staff from that number, and all of a sudden you have a TRUE (there's a funny word) number of interior qualified volunteer firefighters.

Now, if you still find that VERY hard to believe, by all means, present your evidence to the contary.

Edited June 29, 2008 by Raz

[Goose 188]

For those of you not familiar with the area, Rye and Rye Brook have one border, on Ridge Street at St. Mary's Cemetery<-- Link...

Link-->Here is another Google map illustrating the distance from the Rye Brook firehouse (Point B ) to the far Southwest border of Rye at the Village of Mamaroneck line (Point A)... The route I plotted takes you entirely through Rye Brook and Rye and does not use any highways. Just wanted to illustrate the sheer size of a hypothetical Rye/Rye Brook Fire District. Feel free to use this map to form your own opinions on the matter!

Reason for edits: Typos and automatic smiley removed.

Steve, Rye Brook goes as far as the County Airport down 120/King Street. So it's a few miles larger than you plotted. It would be a large and varying district, but honestly if it was done right it could be done well. Like i said, hire a good number more career guys, add a station between Rye and Rye brook - maybe somewhere IAO Rye Ridge Shopping Center or even down towards the beginning of Purchase Street. This way, i would get better protection and actually see my 800 thousand tax dollars go to good use. Right now, i don't really SEE them being utilized. I see a Rye Brook Engine and Truck and a PCFD chief's car...

[x242Steve 1]

Steve, Rye Brook goes as far as the County Airport down 120/King Street. So it's a few miles larger than you plotted. It would be a large and varying district, but honestly if it was done right it could be done well. Like i said, hire a good number more career guys, add a station between Rye and Rye brook - maybe somewhere IAO Rye Ridge Shopping Center or even down towards the beginning of Purchase Street. This way, i would get better protection and actually see my 800 thousand tax dollars go to good use. Right now, i don't really SEE them being utilized. I see a Rye Brook Engine and Truck and a PCFD chief's car...

Goose-

I try to stay open minded, and obviously you are educated about the topic and do have some valid points. But personally, I can't see it happening. I remember the HUGE resistance from a large group of Rye residents when there was serious talk back in the 90's of the Rye and Rye Brook Police Departments merging... You can still see the "Rye PD = My PD" bumper stickers on older cars... Despite the recent influx of "new money", there are still a lot of Rye residents who have deep-seated roots in the community and have a lot of pride and a "lets keep things the way they have always been" attitude. Heck, I can name half a dozen people I know in Rye who can trace their Rye ancestry back to the 1600's... whereas Rye Brook has only existed since 1982 when they spilt from Port Chester. Since then they have had various Public Safety issues, and are still working on putting the Rural/Metro disaster behind them and sorting things out, to some degree, with Port Chester. For the intents and purposes of this thread, there really is no relationship between the City of Rye and the Village of Rye Brook, and I just cannot see the governments or majority of voters from either place ever going for such a drastic change. I think the best thing for the City of Rye would be to implement many of the ideas that are in the study that was mentioned earlier in this thread, in regards to both the Fire and Police Departments. As far as Rye Brook goes, thats your area of expertise and obviously a community you care about, and I hope things work out there as well. Who knows, I could be wrong and you and I will be stationed together someday!

[TL2L31 8]

Steve, plain and simple. You could have an automatic mutual aid dual response. Some departments are doing this already. It is not a long term solution or a quick fix, just a place to start at.

[turk182 37]

Steve, plain and simple. You could have an automatic mutual aid dual response. Some departments are doing this already. It is not a long term solution or a quick fix, just a place to start at.

That would be covered under, " I think the best thing for the City of Rye would be to implement many of the ideas that are in the study that was mentioned earlier in this thread, in regards to both the Fire and Police Departments." That is one of many recommendations in the study. But I am sure you already knew that since you clearly know so much.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I don't know what the exact number of Interior Firefighters is in Peekskill, but I find it VERY hard to believe that it would only be 40.

I get that the ISO calls for 36 volunteers per incident, but to me that is overkill 90% of the time.

Let's face it, most calls we all do are nothing more then "clipboard calls."

On both sides of the fence, paid and volunteer, most times a response is scaled back once information is provided saying it is a false alarm or something simple to handle. One rig with 3 or 4 people should be enough to mitigate most calls we respond to, regardless of whether or not those on board are getting paid to be there or not.

The one thing, or one word, that is going to bite us all in the a** one day is - ASSUMING.

If we assume personnel are coming but have no way to actually guarantee it - someone's going to end up on a chopping block!

Isn't overkill what we do in the fire service overall to begin with? Overwhelm the fire with GPM's, we bundle ourselves up with equipment to protect us even in potential situations. While ISO uses statistics, NFPA gives numbers by operation which I believe and Barry you'd have to back me up on this is around 15 or 16 to perform operations. How many departments are averaging 15 to 16 "INTERIOR" firefighters per alarm assignment. ISO does their numbers based on property conservation...NFPA based on safe operations.

Also its not that hard to believe that there may be 40. All it takes is to look at fit testing records, if ropes were ordered to be issued how many were ordered to be issued. Nothing is a "clipboard" call until unit(s) arrive to investigate/mitigate. What happens when your not getting an equivalent of the 3 or 4 people to handle most calls except for the first alarm assignment staff and a chief or 2? Sooner or later it very well may just bite you in the *a**. Even if it was 60...how many are making a fair percentage of the calls? How many out of that 60 may qualify by policy/physical to be "interior" but will never do anything more then roam the front yard and be a gopher with an SCBA on their back to look busy but will never set foot into the building? How many of us have seen the phantom SCBA malfunction by members to only find out when you check the pack there is nothing wrong except for the purge valve being left full open or in the old days they would flick the swith to "use" from "don." There's plenty of smoke, mirrors and places to hide and they often are used all to well and endanger public safety.

As far as the comment of "I hear that xyz has a good turnout." I guess that depends on several factors...like what the opinion of the person telling you that comment considers good turnout and/or if you believe everything you hear. Consistency is the key for the all hazards approach and not what turnout you get at 7 pm for a structure fire, where you see people you won't see for weeks, months or even once that year for some of you.

[firepunk 3]

Just a general question here. Everyone knows that the small combo departments and MV have manpower issues, why isn't anyone bringing up the fact that there is a labor law and nfpa standards that are not being met here? I do not know the exact law numbers, I think it is 1910.134 and nfpa 1710. Aren't these laws applicable to this problem? If the regionaliztion takes place along the sound shore, maybe the other departments that do not have career chiefs should follow suite and create there own that would include the entire 287 corridor and points south to mamaroneck. Also in regards again to the manpower. All the larger depts including NYC cannot figure out how the small departments work. Well here you go. It is call Work harder and smarter and do more. No one are not assigned to just a back seat and perform one task and tap out. All guys go through at least 2 or 3 bottles, take a rest and go back again. No one is a truckie or a MPO, or a fast/rit member, or a nob man, or a bulk head door man, THEY ARE ALL OF THIS ROLLED UP IN ONE. That is the differnce between small and big departments. They have to get the job done with the manning that they have. They do not have the luxury of calling in additional units from within and respond with 3 or 4 per rig. I know that this statment is a little off subject but this is how they do it.

[Bnechis 3,961]

While ISO uses statistics, NFPA gives numbers by operation which I believe and Barry you'd have to back me up on this is around 15 or 16 to perform operations. How many departments are averaging 15 to 16 "INTERIOR" firefighters per alarm assignment. ISO does their numbers based on property conservation...NFPA based on safe operations.

Its 15 unless you put an arial into service then its 16. THis is for a 2,000 sq ft. two story private dwelling without a basement and no exposures.

Larger structures, high life hazards (Hospitals, Schools, Nursing Homes, Multiple Dwellings) and high hazard locations (Factories, Chemical Storage, Special Properties) require additional personnel in the 1st Alarm Response.

How many buildings in Westchester are this size or smaller. One of the chiefs told me, thats the size of our carrage houses (garage w/a 1 bedroom apt. over it).

a. Incident Commander* 1 ff

b. Pump Operator 1 ff

c. Attack & Backup Lines 4 ff

d. Line Support/Hydrant etc. 2 ff

e. SAR Team 2 ff

f. Vent Team 2 ff

g. Aerial Operator 1 ff

h. IRIC Team 2 ff

* (5.2.1.2.5) IC shall have an aid assigned & is not counted in the above numbers Total 16 ff’s

For a working fire, this list does not include a Safety Officer and 2 additional firefighter’s to upgrade the IRIC to the required FAST team. The aerial operator needs to be 2 firefighters if the unit is a tower ladder. 8 of our 16 ladders are tower ladders.

Edited June 30, 2008 by Bnechis

[exmrvfc 0]

As for the ISO numbers, most of the all Volunteer or Combination Departments have an equal or better rating

Town of Greenburgh

Ardsley 4,Dobbs Ferry 5, Elmsford 4,Fairview 4 (Mostly Career), Greenville 4 (Mostly Career), Hartsdale 3

Sound Shore area PCFD 4; Rye 4, HFD 4, Purchase 4 (all volunteer), WHFD 4 (all Volunteer) VMFD 3 (all volunteer) TMFD 3.

Big Career - NRFD 2, Mt Vernon 3, Yonkers 3 (has more FF than anyone), White Plains 2, Eastchester 3 (mostly career)

According to ISO, 10% of the grade goes to Alarm Communications, 40% to available water supply and 50% to the FD itself. Of the FD Grade, 15% is given to manpower. In other words 7.5% (15% of 50%) of the overall grade for the PPC comes from manpower.

From ISO

Company personnel — ISO credits the personnel available for first alarms of fire. For personnel not normally in the fire station (for example, volunteers), ISO reduces the value of the responding members to reflect the delay due to decision, communication, or assembly. ISO then applies an upper limit for the credit for manning, as it is impractical for a very large number of personnel to operate a piece of apparatus. 15%

[Bnechis 3,961]

As for the ISO numbers, most of the all Volunteer or Combination Departments have an equal or better rating

Town of Greenburgh - Ardsley 4,Dobbs Ferry 5, Elmsford 4,Fairview 4 (Mostly Career), Greenville 4 (Mostly Career), Hartsdale 3, Sound Shore area PCFD 4; Rye 4, HFD 4, Purchase 4 (all volunteer), WHFD 4 (all Volunteer) VMFD 3 (all volunteer) TMFD 3. Big Career - NRFD 2, Mt Vernon 3, Yonkers 3 (has more FF than anyone), White Plains 2, Eastchester 3 (mostly career)

ISO ratings are like an open book test, if you score between 90 & 100% you get a 1, 80-90% is a 2, 70-80% is a 3, 60-70% is a 4 and 50-60% is a 5

So of the above listed ratings, Ten of eighteen depts got either a D minus or an F on an open book test. Since we don't know why a community got the score it did, you can not always make assumptions; i.e. Yonkers got a 3 with the best manning...but did the water system hold them back....yep. Some combo depts, that are running with 6 or 8 members and no longer have volunteers did about the same as some VFD's that turn out good numbers.

According to ISO, 10% of the grade goes to Alarm Communications, 40% to available water supply and 50% to the FD itself. Of the FD Grade, 15% is given to manpower. In other words 7.5% (15% of 50%) of the overall grade for the PPC comes from manpower.

You also need to add divergence. This deducts up to 20% from either the FD's 50% or the Water Supplies 40%. If you have the best water in the world but no FD you get 0% for FD and reduce the water supplies 40% by 20% and visversa.

From ISO

Company personnel — ISO credits the personnel available for first alarms of fire. For personnel not normally in the fire station (for example, volunteers), ISO reduces the value of the responding members to reflect the delay due to decision, communication, or assembly. ISO then applies an upper limit for the credit for manning, as it is impractical for a very large number of personnel to operate a piece of apparatus. 15%

While the ISO website lists the above info, but the ISO FSRS (fire service rating schedule) which you can buy from them and is how they actually calculate the rating, lists manpower being open ended, meaning more ff's = more points. Also you only need (according to the rating) to send 2 engines and a truck (or service co) but nothing prevents sending more.

Also the FSRS wants 36 responders on 3 rigs. the rating goes back to a time when there was only 4 seats and the back step.