Senate Approves Volunteer Recruitment Legislation

[Guest]

it's a start, lets hope the bill gets approval.

See Below:

11.pdf

[Guest]

Here’s the report if you don’t have Adobe:

THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS FORWARDED BY THE NEW YORK

STATE ASSOCIATION OF FIRE CHIEFS PUBLIC RELATIONS COMMITTEE

FOR YOUR INFORMATION.

June 12, 2008

0608-23

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SENATE APPROVES LEGISLATION TO ENCOURAGE VOLUNTEER

RECRUITMENT

On June 10, the New York State Senate passed the "Emergency Services

Volunteer Incentive Act". Among other things, this bill would increase

income tax credits for volunteers with more than 4 years of service an

additional $400 (in addition to the current $200). This was passed

unanimously in the Senate.

Now this bill must be approved by the New York State Assembly.

Please contact your state assembly members and ask them to approve

A5186-C, the Assembly bill.

SENATE APPROVES LEGISLATION TO ENCOURAGE VOLUNTEER

RECRUITMENT

Albany, N.Y., June 10--The New York State Senate unanimously approved

today legislation sponsored by State Senator George Winner (R-C-I, Elmira),

chairman of the Legislative Commission on Rural Resources (LCRR), to help

localities fend off potentially enormous future local property tax increases by

offering incentives to recruit and retain volunteer firefighters and other

emergency services personnel.

The legislation was approved by a vote of 60 to 0.

Winner noted that Senate action on his legislation, the "Emergency Services

Volunteer Incentive Act," comes in the wake of last week’s report from the

state Commission on Property Tax Relief. The commission’s report, which

among other recommendations calls for the state to implement a cap on

school property tax increases, has made the issue of high property taxes No.

1 on the state’s to-do list.

"High property taxes are the talk of the day throughout New York

government. Volunteer recruitment and retention demands a place in the

discussion. This issue warns of the next explosive property tax crisis facing

localities across New York. We need to keep sounding the alarm," said

Winner. "It would cost billions of dollars for local property taxpayers to pay

for the critical services currently provided by volunteer firefighters and EMTs."

The Firemen’s Association of the State of New York (FASNY) estimates that it

would cost local taxpayers more than $5 billion annually to replace volunteers

with paid fire and ambulance services. According to FASNY, the number of

volunteer firefighters statewide has declined from 140,000 in the early 1990s

to fewer than 90,000 today. Volunteer emergency medical technicians (EMTs)

experienced a decline from more than 50,000 to 35,000 during the same

period, with some rural counties experiencing as much as a 50-percent

depletion of their EMT ranks.

Winner has sponsored the "Emergency Services Volunteer Incentive Act"

since 2005 and has been reaching out to Assembly leaders to encourage

bipartisan support on the issue. The measure is sponsored by Assemblyman

David Koon (D-Fairport), vice chair of the LCRR, and is currently in the

Assembly Ways and Means Committee. It must be approved by the Assembly

and be signed by Governor David Paterson before becoming law.

While the importance of local first responders to community safety and

security was widely recognized and praised in the aftermath of the September

11th tragedy, Winner said that it continues to be difficult, for a variety of

reasons, for many local fire departments and ambulance companies to recruit

and retain volunteers. He noted that some departments already employ paid,

around-the-clock firefighters supported by volunteers.

In response, Winner's "Emergency Services Volunteer Incentive Act" would:

*provide a $400 state income tax credit for volunteer firefighters and

ambulance workers who have been active for four or more consecutive years.

This new tax incentive would be in addition to the $200 income tax credit

currently available to volunteers after one year of service;

*exempt motor vehicles owned and used in the performance of duty by an

emergency services volunteer from motor vehicle registration fees and vehicle

use taxes;

*authorize local volunteer fire and ambulance companies to use stateadministered

funds, collected annually through a two-percent fire insurance

premium tax on out-of-state insurers, to help offset the cost of health

insurance for their members;

*increase the number of qualified candidates, from one to three, that

volunteer companies can submit for participation in New York’s "Volunteer

Recruitment Service Scholarships" program, a college tuition assistance

program for volunteers created by state lawmakers in 2002; and

*direct the state Higher Education Services Corporation (HESC) to create a

volunteer recruitment service college loan forgiveness program.

A December 2005 report by the New York State Association of Towns

highlighted the volunteer crisis in the hopes of sparking interest within the

state Legislature for a variety of potential solutions, including some of those

included in Winner’s legislation. In the report G. Jeffrey Haber, executive

director of the Association of Towns, said that the "Association is deeply

concerned that the continued decline in the number of volunteers in the fire

and ambulance services throughout the state can only result in disaster for

the residents of New York State. If the property tax system were forced to

finance paid services in what are now volunteer systems, the impact would

have grave consequences to the health and economic well-being of not just

the towns, but the state as a whole."

[Guest]

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12.doc

[gamewell45 258]

it's a start, lets hope the bill gets approval.

It's been a long time in coming for the volunteers in the State. Not only will this help to retain volunteers, it will also help in recruitment. In particular, many volunteers, especially those who work for small companies who don't offer medical insurance plans or where the cost is prohibitive for the employee, will be able to obtain meaningful medical benefits. This, combined with the already-existing LOSAP program, and other designated benefits & relief, will go a long way to insure the continuance of the volunteer fire service long-term in the state.

Hats off to FASNY for their hard work on behalf of the volunteers in the State of New York.

See Below:

[Goose 188]

I'm not sure how i feel about this bill. It's cool that they will give vollies a break here and there, but for some reason i get the inkling that there is an assumption that those that does this in a career capacity are doing financially well. I've got to work 3 and 4 jobs to make ends meet (credit card bills, insurance bills, paying back student loans, FUEL!!). I only walk away with a few hundred dollars every pay period in my savings account. What i would rather see our esteemed NY State government do is address some of the larger issues - like duplication of resources, streamline consolidation efforts, let counties run FDs and EMS and push for having EMS as a third, dedicated, civil service. Maybe i'm bias but i just see some larger fish to fry out there...

[bil14ga 1]

I'm not sure how i feel about this bill. It's cool that they will give vollies a break here and there, but for some reason i get the inkling that there is an assumption that those that does this in a career capacity are doing financially well. I've got to work 3 and 4 jobs to make ends meet (credit card bills, insurance bills, paying back student loans, FUEL!!). I only walk away with a few hundred dollars every pay period in my savings account. What i would rather see our esteemed NY State government do is address some of the larger issues - like duplication of resources, streamline consolidation efforts, let counties run FDs and EMS and push for having EMS as a third, dedicated, civil service. Maybe i'm bias but i just see some larger fish to fry out there...

I agree. streamlining government and services should be where our government should be spending their time and energy. It is my opinion that this will work about as well as the LOSAP has. LOSAP has become a give away program in many departments. This will be a give away program for "volunteers" who do little if any response to actual emergencies.

Do not get me wrong... I am pro volunteer!!!! Volunteers that are trained and interested in providing above average customer service.

[GAW6 66]

I agree. streamlining government and services should be where our government should be spending their time and energy. It is my opinion that this will work about as well as the LOSAP has. LOSAP has become a give away program in many departments. This will be a give away program for "volunteers" who do little if any response to actual emergencies.

You are wrong about LOSAP. The State has very strict requirements on this. Each member has to make a certain amount of points in different catagories. For example, a "buff" who makes every call, but does not show-up for meetings, drills, OSHA training, etc. will not make his points and in turn will not receive his $ credit for that year.

For any of you skeptics out there - I know what I am talking about because I am the LOSAP Administrator for our F.D.

[TL2L31 8]

Think about it. A tax break on average of $50 per month per volunteer to use his own gas and not get paid to be on call 24hrs a day. Sounds like a great deal for the State of New York. No salaries, no retirement in some instances. Its a small bone for us. I used my $200 last year.

[Raz 14]

You are wrong about LOSAP. The State has very strict requirements on this. Each member has to make a certain amount of points in different catagories. For example, a "buff" who makes every call, but does not show-up for meetings, drills, OSHA training, etc. will not make his points and in turn will not receive his $ credit for that year.

For any of you skeptics out there - I know what I am talking about because I am the LOSAP Administrator for our F.D.

You being the LOSAP Admin for your F.D. only qualifies you to speak about in on behalf of your F.D. I'll trust that you may have a scrupulous view on handing out LOSAP points, but the sad truth is that many people don't. In many departments, LOSAP is exactly what bil14ga said it is, a giveaway. Furthermore, it does absolutely nothing when it comes to recruiting young firefighters. I've never met a volunteer under the age of 35 that joined up because of the LOSAP program. I have, however, met many 60 years and older (including a bunch of wives of members, who are now "active" themselves) who make sure to make company meetings and events, all to get their precious points.

LOSAP is a travesty, a good idea gone horribly wrong. I'd like to see more programs like this phase it out.

[gamewell45 258]

You being the LOSAP Admin for your F.D. only qualifies you to speak about in on behalf of your F.D. I'll trust that you may have a scrupulous view on handing out LOSAP points, but the sad truth is that many people don't. In many departments, LOSAP is exactly what bil14ga said it is, a giveaway. Furthermore, it does absolutely nothing when it comes to recruiting young firefighters. I've never met a volunteer under the age of 35 that joined up because of the LOSAP program. I have, however, met many 60 years and older (including a bunch of wives of members, who are now "active" themselves) who make sure to make company meetings and events, all to get their precious points.

LOSAP is a travesty, a good idea gone horribly wrong. I'd like to see more programs like this phase it out.

I'm not sure what fire department your a member of, but in my department, i can think of approx. a dozen firefighters (under the age of 35) who joined for a combination of reasons; LOSAP, the desire to serve the community and the other perks associated with the volunteer fire service. LOSAP is not a giveaway if properly monitored and admininstered which i would think is more the rule then exception. I'm sure the last thing any fire district wants is the state investigating potential fraud.

The points that one must have in order to qualify are predicated on receiving minimum amount of fire calls, thus preventing only those who attend say, only meetings or drills from qualifying for LOSAP credit. While you say you haven't "met a volunteer under the age of 35 that joined up because of the LOSAP program", i find that age shouldn't matter in any case. Its the desire to help your community; who cares how old someone is or if its wives who want to help out? As long as they meet the requirements set down by the state, there should be no argument from rational people.

Finally, while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I cannot agree with your thoughts that LOSAP is a travesty; rather its an excellent program for volunteers who make the committment for training, Fire Calls, meetings and other legally sanctioned details. Volunteers in NY make an incredible contribution to the fire service and the LOSAP program is a small way of saying thanks to those who dedicate themselves to helping the public in their time of need. All the new young recruits are informed about this program when they join and its explained of the benefits of being in it as 40 years down the road, they'll have supplemental income to live off of in addition to social security (or whatever the program is in effect at that time). The only thing the volunteer fire service ought to do is to publicize it more in the high schools and other public venues. The program is most likely here to stay long term so those nay-sayers ought to accept that fact and move on to other worthy causes.

[Raz 14]

First off, I'm well aware of how LOSAP is supposed to work. However, in my experience, there is a large difference between how it's supposed to work and how it actually pans out. Like most things in the fire service, there isn't much oversight, if any. So your department elects someone to watch over LOSAP points, that's great, but who watches the watchman? I've seen some departments talk about implementing barcode scanners to ensure people are actually at calls and geared up before they give out a point. Unless your department has something along these lines, you can't say there's any true oversight to the LOSAP system. That also means there's no way for the state to investigate fraud, so there's no fear of repercussion for fraudulent practices.

As for rational people having no argument so long as those eligible to receive LOSAP "meet the requirements set down by the state", we've had many threads discussing how there are barely any requirements set down by the state to be a "firefighter." I'm not beating that horse again.

Age does matter, I'm sorry. I have to retire at age 62, it's a law. Apparently the state feels that the level of service I'll provide at 62 is inferior to what I'll provide at 32, and I'm inclined to agree with them. Yet I know a guy that gets a monthly LOSAP check that's equal to about a fifth of what I make at my job. Almost all of his accredited years come from service rendered after age 62. Not only is he collecting, he's out there adding more points while he does it. It's ridiculous.

I also find it funny that you keep mentioning "the desire to serve one's community" before going on to discuss this benefit or that benefit given to volunteers. Last time I checked, volunteer meant you did it for free, and that the service you provided was reward enough. I'm sorry, which is it?

The program is here to stay, so we should just move on and not question it? So are training standards, but you questioned them in all the other threads I've seen you in. You have your hot issues, I have mine.

[bil14ga 1]

You are wrong about LOSAP. The State has very strict requirements on this. Each member has to make a certain amount of points in different catagories. For example, a "buff" who makes every call, but does not show-up for meetings, drills, OSHA training, etc. will not make his points and in turn will not receive his $ credit for that year.

For any of you skeptics out there - I know what I am talking about because I am the LOSAP Administrator for our F.D.

And I must not know what I am talking about right??? Lets see, I have been active in volunteer departments that have abused the system to get points for their members. Lets create BS positions for 5 or 10 points and help you get their that much quicker. Additionally, I was a commissioner for a fire department that had a give away LOSAP program. Show up to the meetings, become company president, captain of the fire police, etc. You could get your 50 points whith never going on a call. It is a joke. It is a waste of money. It is criminal how some of these programs are ran. Also, the member who responds 50 percent of the calls gets the same monthly credit as someone who serves coffee at company meeting night. I can show you the minutes of the meetings where I put a motion on the floor to get rid of the system and never got a second. The old timers were afraid of losing their paycheck.

Maybe your program is ran on the up and up. It has been my experience that most are not. Add to that the numerous programs that are underfunded. Therefore I am completely against the LOSAP and volunteer tax incentives. Give the volunteers something tangable in their pockets now.

[Bnechis 3,961]

In many departments, LOSAP is exactly what bil14ga said it is, a giveaway. Furthermore, it does absolutely nothing when it comes to recruiting young firefighters. I've never met a volunteer under the age of 35 that joined up because of the LOSAP program........LOSAP is a travesty, a good idea gone horribly wrong. I'd like to see more programs like this phase it out.

Who believes this?

1) A New York State Legislative Commission on State-Local Relations report (New York’s Fire Protection System: Services in Transition, 1988) noted that a study commissioned by the National Volunteer Fire Council concluded that “enhanced benefits did not seem to be a major criteria for retention in many volunteer departments.”

2) Ten years later and that conclusion has not changed. In another study this time by the USFA and the NVFC (Recruitment and Retention in the Volunteer Fire Service: Problems and Solutions, USFA & NVFC, 1998) concluded that while direct monetary incentives can help with retention, “… they are not the best method to retain members. Departments that use direct monetary incentives often find themselves having to deal with squabbles by members over money…”

3) An Erie County study (“Recruitment and Retention of Volunteer Firefighters in Erie County, New York” 11/98) reported that Length of Service award programs, aside from having high startup costs, appear to retain members for a couple of years and do not interest the younger members who are decades away from collecting benefits. It appears that these programs award long term members who are already committed to the department.

4) The New York State Comptroller’s Office in July 2001 (A Report on Volunteer Firefighter Length of Service Award Programs, NYS Comptroller, July 2001.), released a study that assessed the success that LOSAP had in recruiting and retaining volunteer firefighters. The study concluded that aside from an initial spike in membership following establishment of a LOSAP, the programs might not be effective in recruiting and retaining volunteers.

Can anyone show any study that shows that LOSAP works to recruit or retain volunteers?

Those who say its a reward is fine, but thats not what this is beingsold as.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Think about it. A tax break on average of $50 per month per volunteer to use his own gas and not get paid to be on call 24hrs a day. Sounds like a great deal for the State of New York. No salaries, no retirement in some instances. Its a small bone for us. I used my $200 last year.

How is this a great deal for NYS? NYS does not provide fire protection, this deal is to help VFD's. It takes money away from other state programs.

If a Community with volunteers wants to provide benefits to its volunteers good for them, but if NYS does this it means that the 90% of NYS citizens (those who are protected by career fire service) have to foot the bill. They are paying taxes to support there FD's and now are being asked to help fund communities that apparently need extra help to retain volunteers and clearly are unwilling to support there own dept.

[TL2L31 8]

How is this a great deal for NYS? NYS does not provide fire protection, this deal is to help VFD's. It takes money away from other state programs.

If a Community with volunteers wants to provide benefits to its volunteers good for them, but if NYS does this it means that the 90% of NYS citizens (those who are protected by career fire service) have to foot the bill. They are paying taxes to support there FD's and now are being asked to help fund communities that apparently need extra help to retain volunteers and clearly are unwilling to support there own dept.

It doesnt take money from other programs, it saves money by not having to hire firefighters.

[gamewell45 258]

First off, I'm well aware of how LOSAP is supposed to work. However, in my experience, there is a large difference between how it's supposed to work and how it actually pans out. Like most things in the fire service, there isn't much oversight, if any. So your department elects someone to watch over LOSAP points, that's great, but who watches the watchman? I've seen some departments talk about implementing barcode scanners to ensure people are actually at calls and geared up before they give out a point. Unless your department has something along these lines, you can't say there's any true oversight to the LOSAP system. That also means there's no way for the state to investigate fraud, so there's no fear of repercussion for fraudulent practices.

My department has something along those lines.

As for rational people having no argument so long as those eligible to receive LOSAP "meet the requirements set down by the state", we've had many threads discussing how there are barely any requirements set down by the state to be a "firefighter." I'm not beating that horse again.

I agree with you. Don't try to beat a dead horse, it is what it is whether you or I like it or not.

Age does matter, I'm sorry. I have to retire at age 62, it's a law. Apparently the state feels that the level of service I'll provide at 62 is inferior to what I'll provide at 32, and I'm inclined to agree with them. Yet I know a guy that gets a monthly LOSAP check that's equal to about a fifth of what I make at my job. Almost all of his accredited years come from service rendered after age 62. Not only is he collecting, he's out there adding more points while he does it. It's ridiculous.

Perhaps in the career service, but as the volunteer service is a different concept and staffing requirements are much different thats not something you or I are likely to agree on.

I also find it funny that you keep mentioning "the desire to serve one's community" before going on to discuss this benefit or that benefit given to volunteers. Last time I checked, volunteer meant you did it for free, and that the service you provided was reward enough. I'm sorry, which is it?

Both; I don't know of any volunteer firefighters who receive a paycheck or get paid overtime for running out at all hours of the day and night on fire calls or for attending training classes. The volunteer fire service is evolving whether or not you want to admit it; due to increased training requirements (which will no doubt over time increase) and other time rquirements (fires, drills, details & the like), the few benefits that a volunteer firefighter receives is certainly reasonable. Tell me, do you think the volunteers should be covered by the VFBL?? or is that part of giving your labor for free?

The program is here to stay, so we should just move on and not question it? So are training standards, but you questioned them in all the other threads I've seen you in. You have your hot issues, I have mine.

You can certainly question it and render your opinion as i mentioned in an earlier reply, but the long and short of it is that nothing is likely to change the direction that you'd like it to go in, honestly I figured you would work more on training and standards then opine on this.

[gamewell45 258]

Who believes this?

1) A New York State Legislative Commission on State-Local Relations report (New York's Fire Protection System: Services in Transition, 1988) noted that a study commissioned by the National Volunteer Fire Council concluded that "enhanced benefits did not seem to be a major criteria for retention in many volunteer departments."

2) Ten years later and that conclusion has not changed. In another study this time by the USFA and the NVFC (Recruitment and Retention in the Volunteer Fire Service: Problems and Solutions, USFA & NVFC, 1998) concluded that while direct monetary incentives can help with retention, "… they are not the best method to retain members. Departments that use direct monetary incentives often find themselves having to deal with squabbles by members over money…"

3) An Erie County study ("Recruitment and Retention of Volunteer Firefighters in Erie County, New York" 11/98) reported that Length of Service award programs, aside from having high startup costs, appear to retain members for a couple of years and do not interest the younger members who are decades away from collecting benefits. It appears that these programs award long term members who are already committed to the department.

4) The New York State Comptroller's Office in July 2001 (A Report on Volunteer Firefighter Length of Service Award Programs, NYS Comptroller, July 2001.), released a study that assessed the success that LOSAP had in recruiting and retaining volunteer firefighters. The study concluded that aside from an initial spike in membership following establishment of a LOSAP, the programs might not be effective in recruiting and retaining volunteers.

Can anyone show any study that shows that LOSAP works to recruit or retain volunteers?

Those who say its a reward is fine, but thats not what this is beingsold as.

Can you please post links to these reports so we may read them?

[gamewell45 258]

It doesnt take money from other programs, it saves money by not having to hire firefighters.

You are correct.

[KRF178 49]

LOSAP is great...when you turn 62. I have definetly seen the system abused and it's not right. IMHO you should have to make a certain amount of calls, training and "active" events before being eligible for the other categories. Like i said it's great however I would have to wait some time to see any type of reward....and I think with the cost fuel and all that people want to see any rewards we may get now. All the rewards and tax breaks are awesome but in reality one shouldn't volunteer just for that reason and that reason only. Like myself who has always said I don't do it for those reasons (don't get me wrong they are nice to have) I volunteer because this is something I love to do. The unfortunate part is that we all still have people on our "active" rosters for that reason only and probably have made a call or training session in 10+ years. Just my $.02

[OoO 24]

For those of us not in the fire service, could someone please explain what exactly LOSAP is?

[DOC22 1]

LOSAP= Length Of Service Awards Program. It's a small pension plan for volunteer firefighters. Ther are strict State protocols that it is run on.

[Guest MVFD334]

So cut to the point, we are gonna let the 5% of the volunteer system that gets the bogus points tarnish the other 95%?? Geez thats a little better than the 55% of welfare checks that actually goto the people that need it. If a guy has given 15 years of "free" work to help people and for the last 5 he can only show up for some duties and some meetings your gonna hold that against him? I for one am not gonna pass judgement on a life member or a senior guy in my volli dept because they are over 55 and not so quik to suit up and go out on a call.. Or the look on the members that did there time and are incapable of goin out in the field. Yes there are some that do show up and only seem to be stuffing their faces and scribbling their name but that should be dealt with by the chiefs/commisioners.

I can see alot of valid points people have made in this topic but it seems alot of career folks are against this.. If this passes or get tossed I doubt people are gonna stop giving up their time. Thier many many volli's out there and do damn better then above average. At the end of 20years it would be nice to see something for all those times you got out of bed, came late or missed a family function, wasted gas to drive to a call, be exposed physically and mentally to things the average person runs away from... etc and all this for free even if 70% where bs and you complained the whole time.. You dont do this for a $200 yearly tax break.. You do it because because you want to.

[Bnechis 3,961]

It doesnt take money from other programs, it saves money by not having to hire firefighters.

Please explain this.

1) if you reduce the amount of tax collected (by giving a credit) you have to either cut spending or raise taxes somewhere else.

2) How does it save NYS money? (It may save depts. and local government money, if it actually work and they do not have to hire, but it does not save NYS anything). How many ff's does the State Government have as employee's of the state?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Can you please post links to these reports so we may read them?

I'll see if I can find them. I never had links, I had hard copies.

[AFS1970 504]

Not being from New York, and being from a town that has shown complete disinterest in implementing both LOSAP and Tax Incentives, these are topics that I am only familiar with from reading about them. But I too don’t think that these plans are the complete answer to volunteer recruitment and retention. First and foremost, is the fact that the more costs we add to volunteering brings us further down the slippery slope of whether or not we are actually saving money compared to a Career Fire Department. The more ways we find to pay our volunteers, the harder it is to argue that we are still volunteering.

Now I can understand how there should be a points system for these programs. I also understand why there are points given for meetings and drills, in addition to calls. This is because the member that makes a bunch of calls but no training is quickly going to become of little use to you on scene, and the member who never comes to a meeting will usually have no clue about what is really going on in your department. However the bottom line must remain responding to (and working at) calls because that is the primary function of any volunteer department.

Honest internal regulation is the only answer because it would be impossible for any outside agency to prove fraud, unless they came to every call, drill or meeting that your department held and took their own attendance. Imagine the scope of trying to do this with even a random 5% of the departments involved. This is what allows these types of programs to get the bad name they have. No matter what system you build, someone will find a way to cheat at it. Sadly the cheaters discovered that it is nearly impossible to regulate them long before the honest members did.

[Raz 14]

I've seen some departments talk about implementing barcode scanners to ensure people are actually at calls and geared up before they give out a point. Unless your department has something along these lines, you can't say there's any true oversight to the LOSAP system.

My department has something along those lines.

Care to elaborate?

Perhaps in the career service, but as the volunteer service is a different concept and staffing requirements are much different thats not something you or I are likely to agree on.

Also, your strawman argument in most threads is "you don't know what it's like over on the volunteer side of things" as if you think that most career FF's just spring into existence one day. Most of us were volunteers, or still are. We have experience with the LOSAP program. What about guys like me who have a few years invested in the program, but will never see that money? Who does it go to? Well, to people like this: http://www.penflexinc.com/index.html. Not only do they get to hold on to that money for the next 60 years, making all that interest and returns on investments, but the poor governments who got rooked into giving it to them will actually pay them to administer the account. Just to reiterate, these people get the gov't to give them money, use it to make more money to keep for themselves, and pay them to do it! And since nobody wants the bad publicity of voting "against volunteers" it's the perfect scam. LOSAP is a mutlimillion dollar business, not a pension plan, and it benefits those companies a hell of a lot more than volunteers. Poke around their website, they have specific instructions on how to fight if your LOSAP plan doesn't allow you to accrue points after your entitlement age. It borders on farcical

So cut to the point, we are gonna let the 5% of the volunteer system that gets the bogus points tarnish the other 95%??

Are you just making these stats up? I think you are, and that's ok. I don't expect you to have hard numbers because there's absolutely no oversight to the program.

BFD, you make some excellent points.

[GAW6 66]

I am in total agreement that LOSAP does not entice members. Young people are not thinking about what they will get at age 65. It's a "perk" for members who are meeting the requirements of the department. Maybe our department is an exception, but the program is very closely watched; you cannot make your points just "by showing up to meetings and making coffee". There are specific categories that you have to obtain points in each one. We have had members who did not get the year's credit because they missed OSHA training.

NYS is now requiring audits on all LOSAP programs - so I suggest that all departments "get their ducks in a row"!

I am a volunteer - I did not join to receive anything in return except for the gratitude of our neighbors. My husband who is an ex-Chief with 37-years in the FD, has not made his points in quite a few years, and therefore has not received the yearly credit. His comment "I did not join 37 years ago to get a pension, I joined because I wanted to".

LOSAP has been approved for VACs also. I for one have been very vocal against it. I do not think it is cost effective to the taxpayers given the fact that ambulance members do not stay active the amount years that FD members do. Am I hurting myself - absolutely! But that is not why I joined!

[Guest]

I for one have been very vocal against it. I do not think it is cost effective to the taxpayers given the fact that ambulance members do not stay active the amount years that FD members do.

you are right, i was told about 5 or 6 years ago the average "life span" for an ems vollie is 7yrs. don't know whether that has increased or decreased, statistically. but the few exceptions to that stat stay with these vacs just as long as FF's and in a fair world, they should get the same benefits. we have a member in our vac who is on her 31st year of service! if retention is the game we're playing, a pension is the way to go. obviously we don't live in a fair world, but we'll try for the pension, and if there are civilians and town board memebrs out there who are willing listen and possibly to approve this for us, then we should all be trying. i'm 24 years old, but if i were 65 years old and retiring today, i'd want (probably NEED) that little vac pension to help me out. we vollies have a lot of flaws, but i think its great what we do and to prolong the vollie world should be thought of in our future planning, and the pensions can help that.

[50-65 205]

For those of us not in the fire service, could someone please explain what exactly LOSAP is?

Length Of Service Awards Program. I'm sure someone can explain it better, and there are differences from district to district, but I will tell you how it works for me.

Each year, I have to accumulate 50 "points". These points are broken down into various catagories such as elected position, fire calls, meetings, drills, etc. There are maximum #'s of points available in each catagory.

Each year that I attain my 50 points, I receive a credit. I need 5 credits to be vested in the system. At the age of 60, I can begin collecting. We receive $20 per month, per credit. Assuming 30 years of service at age 60, I could collect $600 per month.

[ex-commish 490]

you are right, i was told about 5 or 6 years ago the average "life span" for an ems vollie is 7yrs. don't know whether that has increased or decreased, statistically. but the few exceptions to that stat stay with these vacs just as long as FF's and in a fair world, they should get the same benefits. we have a member in our vac who is on her 31st year of service! if retention is the game we're playing, a pension is the way to go. obviously we don't live in a fair world, but we'll try for the pension, and if there are civilians and town board memebrs out there who are willing listen and possibly to approve this for us, then we should all be trying. i'm 24 years old, but if i were 65 years old and retiring today, i'd want (probably NEED) that little vac pension to help me out. we vollies have a lot of flaws, but i think its great what we do and to prolong the vollie world should be thought of in our future planning, and the pensions can help that.

Sounds like " the owe us" mentality.