"Paid Chauffeurs"

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I was going over the thread about MVFD being down to one ladder truck. So after much delay they did return a second ladder company to service (I'm assuming the post that stated that to be correct). That's obviously a good thing, but once again a municipality gambles and gets away with it.

I was rather disturbed by some comments from brother firefighters (particularly from IAFF members) refering to other IAFF firefighters as "paid chauffeurs." That's a bit more polite than the "paid drivers" comment we used to hear as career firefighters in Eastchester, Port Chester, Scarsdale, Larchmont, Pelham, Pelham Manor....list goes on....but honestly it's still an ignorant term; even more so today than years past.

Let me ask all firefighters reading this a question; (this probably will not be on any upcoming promotional tests) YOU are a firefighter assigned to an engine all by your lonesome. Yes indeed, you do drive the apparatus. Tones go out for a reported structure fire. YOU dutifully don your turnouts, jump up into the cab, crank up the rig and respond. En-route you get a report from dispatch that multiple calls are being received for a two story private dwelling showing fire. YOU grab the microphone and make the acknowledgement. Your heart rate increases. Another communication from dispatch; report of a person trapped. YOU are approaching the scene and can see a column of smoke. Quickly in your mind YOU go over the actions you will be taking upon arrival. Arriving on the scene YOU are cool enough under pressure to spot the engine just beyond the structure, engage the pumps; leaving room for the truck and easy access to the hosebed. As YOU exit the cab two people come running up screaming about a person being trapped upstairs in the house. YOU grab and don your Scott-pak, portable radio and your helmet.

The second due engine (also manned by one firefighter) is still a few minutes out, as is the ladder truck (one firefighter) and the Officer is delayed. YOU are alone on the fireground.

So, what are YOU going to do?

A. attempt to enter the structure to perform search and rescue

B. stretch an attack line

C. remove the 24' ground ladder from the engine and deploy it

D. "hook up and look up" (never heard that saying before, but it's a real knee slapper)

Do YOU see the point I'm "driving" at? (pun intended) The firefighter responding alone is faced with an overwhelming situation. ANY firefighter worth his/her salt knows the answer to this scenario. YOU will take action, and based on the obvious priority it is not a pretty answer. The "rules" are out the window for this firefighter. OSHA 1910.134, 2 in 2 out, makes the exception where there is an obvious life hazard. A person may burn or choke to death if YOU don't do something about it.

This scenario and others like it, are confronted every single day across this country by firefighters who must take initial action alone, or with only one/two/three additional firefighters on scene. It is patently absurd to refer to a career firefighter forced to operate alone as a "paid chauffeur."

Not long ago "paid driver" was a term used in a derogatory way; meant to demean and insult a career firefighter.

I find it hard to believe that in this day and age, with all the knowledge members of the firefighting community have developed and learned; that anybody affiliated within the world of firefighting would still not understand the unique challenges and dangers facing brother/sister firefighters who have to "go it alone."

I would suggest those who made the paid chauffeur comments consider just how hurtful and mean-spirited it might sound to the brothers who still have to go out and face the dangers of the profession alone. It's hard enough to do the job with minimal staffing and try to keep up some semblance of morale without having to be confronted with old stereotypes that simply do not apply; especially here in a forum of your peers who should know better.

~Stay safe.

[Guest]

It is interesting for me to read about the term "paid chauffeer", or "paid driver", to be seen in what is percieved in a derogatory light. From my perception as a volunteer, it is usually quite the opposite.

I think this is because in my experience in the combination system in Stamford, and specifically during my time with the Belltown Fire Department, (which had paid drivers until 6 months ago), the paid drivers were senior men with knowledge and experience, and could be looked to for guidance and support.

[CPAGE 2]

This is just a few people that have no clue and use the wrong words. Every career firefighter must go through the same training not just driver training.

Here in New Jersey a career ff and a volly ff goes through the same training we have FF I , FF II, FF III carrer guy's do FF I and FF II in the acadamy. Must of the volunteers get the same classes just at a time they can do. We also have a program in bergen co that a Volunteer can get FF I in 5 weeks as they go 5 days a week 8x4 and yes they are in the same class with the career brothers.

Chris

[firefighter36 52]

I feel that staffing a rig with one firefighter is simply unacceptable. There should be no less than 3 (if not 4) on all fire apparatus- regardless of status (career or volunteer) Just so, in my ideal world, there would also be 2 officers per patrol car for Law Enforcement. Of course, we are limited by budgets, egoes, and the like.

CPAGE, thanks for enlightening us about the training in NJ. I think that a lot of camaraderie could be fostered through training like that, especially for the recruit class. It is unfortunate that you don't see that in NY except at outreach classes or update classes. It always seems that Complacency and Agendas of political organizations keep training from being truly standardized in NY.

There is a lot to be done at a scene when we first arrive. It seems to me that the manager-types in the village/ town/ city halls, as well, as the public simply want to see a fire truck show up to keep the numbers game in check. Bean counting doesn't fight fires or improve the safety of residents. It provides a mythical sense of security to otherwise oblivious taxpayers who may have no understanding and my over-estimate the abilities of their fire protection.

I have a lot of respect for the brothers who have to go it alone, as they have to be the go-to firefighters at any scene. Keep up the good work, and don't be afraid to call for immediate back-up. And more importantly, if people talk trash, don't tolerate it, we know the job you guys do. Keep the faith, and remember, we are all in this together.

It was mentioned in a previous thread that we have garbage trucks staffed with more members than fire equipment.....

Edited June 14, 2008 by mbendel36

[Raz 14]

I was rather disturbed by some comments from brother firefighters (particularly from IAFF members) refering to other IAFF firefighters as "paid chauffeurs." That's a bit more polite than the "paid drivers" comment we used to hear as career firefighters in Eastchester, Port Chester, Scarsdale, Larchmont, Pelham, Pelham Manor....list goes on....but honestly it's still an ignorant term; even more so today than years past.

This might be a simple difference of opinion, but I don't equate the words "driver" and "chauffeur" with eachother, as you do. A chauffer is a firefighter who has done his time and paid his dues, having risen to a level where he is considered worthy of being trusted with being the backbone of the team. He is the one solely responsible for maintaining a water supply or maneuvering an aerial. It is not a job to be taken lightly, as it requires a higher level of critical thinking and the ability to sometimes "think outside the box." If anything, I'd trust a chauffeur over a line firefighter anyday, and if I use it, I mean it as a term of respect. I'll be the first to admit that I don't think I possess the cognitive ability to be a good chauffeur.

"Driver", on the other hand, is a derogatory term used by (usually older) volunteer firefighters to describe paid firefighters in combination departments. It stems from the fact that pre-1980 (or maybe a few years before that), NYS had no academy or enforcable standards to be considered a professional firefighter. Because of this, and due to the fact that volunteers were plentiful at the time, the sole purpose of the career staff in many depts was to drive and operate the rig. Thus, many older volunteers grew up with actual "fire drivers" and are ignorant of the difference between the career guys of their department circa 1975, and the career firefighters of today. Of course, a few malcontents of the younger generation of volunteers have latched onto this slur and still use it, ignorant of the fact that the ones they call drivers are trained and held to vastly superior standards than themselves.

As for your hypothetical scenario, unless a person is hanging out of a window and waiting for a ladder, I'd stretch a handline. There's no good answer here, but it's a fact that regardless of anything else, a handline put into operation will improve every possible outcome at that fire.

Edited June 14, 2008 by Raz

[Bnechis 3,961]

I was rather disturbed by some comments from brother firefighters (particularly from IAFF members) refering to other IAFF firefighters as "paid chauffeurs." That's a bit more polite than the "paid drivers" comment we used to hear as career firefighters....but honestly it's still an ignorant term; even more so today than years past.......It is patently absurd to refer to a career firefighter forced to operate alone as a "paid chauffeur."

Not long ago "paid driver" was a term used in a derogatory way; meant to demean and insult a career firefighter.

I would suggest those who made the paid chauffeur comments consider just how hurtful and mean-spirited it might sound to the brothers who still have to go out and face the dangers of the profession alone. It's hard enough to do the job with minimal staffing and try to keep up some semblance of morale without having to be confronted with old stereotypes that simply do not apply; especially here in a forum of your peers who should know better.

1st. I do not think that the comments made in the MV thread "paid chauffeurs" was ment to be hurtful or or mean spirited.

Over the years I have heard a number of IAFF members who drive apparatus and are the only career member on the rig refer to themselves as either paid drivers or chauffers. How would a firefighter working in a better staffed dept. know that these terms might be an issue?

2nd. Lets consider that many 100% career depts call the apparatus operator either a driver or a chauffer. FDNY uses the term chauffer and still runs a chauffer school.

3rd. Lets consider some history. 110 years ago NRFD was 100% volunteer then they added paid "horse men", there job was to care for the horses and get them hooked up and "drive" the rigs. They were brought in at a time when there were over 400 volunteers. They were hired to take care of the most expensive assets of the dept. (horses and apparatus). A stoker was added as 2nd paid man on the steamers, to reduce response time. In 1927 the city switched the dept to 100% career force (this was done after the chamber of commerce proved that do to the ISO ratings, it wuld be cheaper to switch than maintain the old system).

At my 1st fire, I was the 1st volunteer to arrive onscene. The 2 "paid drivers" had already arrived with an engine & ladder. the engine "driver" stretched a line to the front door, told me to pack up and take the line in. At that time, the dept policy was that the "paid drivers" were not to go inside, that was the job for the volunteers.

Many of the depts that currently only have 1 career member on a rig developed there system when the volunteers were still very strong but, felt it was important to have career members taking care of the most expensive assets of the depts. and to keep response times short, with volunteers responding to the scene. One of the major problems that these members face is that as the numbers of volunteers dropped (total or daytime) the departments have not added enough staff to cover this major shortfall.

[TL2L31 8]

In Port Chester, the paid staff is lucky to still have a large compliment of volunteers. I would say that 99% of the time they dont have to enter a building alone. I drove as the driver (volunteer) to a working structure last week . It was one of the rare instances where I had to wait for the paid engine to arrive on scene. When he did arrive, shortly there after there had to be twenty volunteers also on location. Like I said , the staff is lucky to have a good backing corp that most combo departments dont.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I feel that staffing a rig with one firefighter is simply unacceptable. There should be no less than 3 (if not 4) on all fire apparatus- regardless of status (career or volunteer) Of course, we are limited by budgets, egoes, and the like.

Agreed. Budgets I can understand, I can not understand how some depts can hide there staffing problems because of ego.

It seems to me that the manager-types in the village/ town/ city halls, as well, as the public simply want to see a fire truck show up to keep the numbers game in check. Bean counting doesn't fight fires or improve the safety of residents. It provides a mythical sense of security to otherwise oblivious taxpayers who may have no understanding and my over-estimate the abilities of their fire protection.

Do the FD's tell the "manager-types" that they do not have enough personnel? I know many combo depts in Westchester that do not even record who responds and/or when they arrive (4 minutes or 4 hours later). If the dept does not ask for personnel, you can not blame the bean counters.

99.99% of taxpayers have no idea what the local FD provides. if it is career, combo, volunteer...do they have enough ff's, are they trained, etc. All they know is there is a big fire housche with lots of truck just down the road. The taxpayers concern is how much they pay in total taxes, The only time they care about the FD is when they are dialling 911.

It was mentioned in a previous thread that we have garbage trucks staffed with more members than fire equipment.....

Its a shame, but people don't expect to ever need the FD, but they expect there garbage picked up every week (sometimes 2x a week) plus, recycling and yard waste...etc.

[FirNaTine 370]

I was going over the thread about MVFD being down to one ladder truck. So after much delay they did return a second ladder company to service (I'm assuming the post that stated that to be correct). That's obviously a good thing, but once again a municipality gambles and gets away with it.

I was rather disturbed by some comments from brother firefighters (particularly from IAFF members) refering to other IAFF firefighters as "paid chauffeurs." That's a bit more polite than the "paid drivers" comment we used to hear as career firefighters in Eastchester, Port Chester, Scarsdale, Larchmont, Pelham, Pelham Manor....list goes on....but honestly it's still an ignorant term; even more so today than years past.

Let me ask all firefighters reading this a question; (this probably will not be on any upcoming promotional tests) YOU are a firefighter assigned to an engine all by your lonesome. Yes indeed, you do drive the apparatus. Tones go out for a reported structure fire. YOU dutifully don your turnouts, jump up into the cab, crank up the rig and respond. En-route you get a report from dispatch that multiple calls are being received for a two story private dwelling showing fire. YOU grab the microphone and make the acknowledgement. Your heart rate increases. Another communication from dispatch; report of a person trapped. YOU are approaching the scene and can see a column of smoke. Quickly in your mind YOU go over the actions you will be taking upon arrival. Arriving on the scene YOU are cool enough under pressure to spot the engine just beyond the structure, engage the pumps; leaving room for the truck and easy access to the hosebed. As YOU exit the cab two people come running up screaming about a person being trapped upstairs in the house. YOU grab and don your Scott-pak, portable radio and your helmet.

The second due engine (also manned by one firefighter) is still a few minutes out, as is the ladder truck (one firefighter) and the Officer is delayed. YOU are alone on the fireground.

So, what are YOU going to do?

A. attempt to enter the structure to perform search and rescue

B. stretch an attack line

C. remove the 24' ground ladder from the engine and deploy it

D. "hook up and look up" (never heard that saying before, but it's a real knee slapper)

Do YOU see the point I'm "driving" at? (pun intended) The firefighter responding alone is faced with an overwhelming situation. ANY firefighter worth his/her salt knows the answer to this scenario. YOU will take action, and based on the obvious priority it is not a pretty answer. The "rules" are out the window for this firefighter. OSHA 1910.134, 2 in 2 out, makes the exception where there is an obvious life hazard. A person may burn or choke to death if YOU don't do something about it.

This scenario and others like it, are confronted every single day across this country by firefighters who must take initial action alone, or with only one/two/three additional firefighters on scene. It is patently absurd to refer to a career firefighter forced to operate alone as a "paid chauffeur."

Not long ago "paid driver" was a term used in a derogatory way; meant to demean and insult a career firefighter.

I find it hard to believe that in this day and age, with all the knowledge members of the firefighting community have developed and learned; that anybody affiliated within the world of firefighting would still not understand the unique challenges and dangers facing brother/sister firefighters who have to "go it alone."

I would suggest those who made the paid chauffeur comments consider just how hurtful and mean-spirited it might sound to the brothers who still have to go out and face the dangers of the profession alone. It's hard enough to do the job with minimal staffing and try to keep up some semblance of morale without having to be confronted with old stereotypes that simply do not apply; especially here in a forum of your peers who should know better.

~Stay safe.

Well maybe these so called "brother firefighters," who are IAFF members of these smaller Combo Depts. shouldn't pass comments that give others these so called false impressions about their Profession. They should think twice before opening their mouth and telling others, that all they do is drive to the handful of fires they catch a year and the Volunteers do the rest. This is what happens when a Dept. hires guys who have no Pride and could care less about their Job! As far as the term "HOOK UP and Look Up", that's been around for yrs. In fact the 1st place I heard it was in the Career Academy when I was a Probie, and it was directed at a fellow Probie of a Combo Dept. by a Career Training Officer. Talk about "Brotherhood"! Maybe we should start by schooling our own and tell them to think before they speak.

[Guest Chiefmcfuz]

Man you guys are so fortunate. At work I get called lots of things, nothing as nice as this and that is by the general public and my co-workers (and it's not just me). You should be thankful that most of you work in towns where most people who call 911 are happy to see you show up on their front doorstep. My advice to all, grow a thicker skin. Let this stuff roll off your back. And don't forget your roots or the reasons why you joined the emergency services. Remember too that some career guys used to be volunteer and some volunteers are aspiring to be career and even some are both career and volunteer in some form or another. Work together, because by working together we are alot stronger than if we are working separately. Titles are like dirty underwear sometimes they get changed frequently sometimes they don't, sometimes they feel nice and comfy and sometimes they stink to high heaven (you know who you are LOL)

Would we have the same discussion if people were saying "Career Can Man" in another thread? How about "Career knob man" or "Career Axe man"? Probably not, but on the flip side you can avoid this argument by calling people Career firefighters and by avoiding this fight people could work together for the greater good.

Edited June 16, 2008 by Chiefmcfuz

[efdcapt115 1,511]

1st. I do not think that the comments made in the MV thread "paid chauffeurs" was ment to be hurtful or or mean spirited.

Over the years I have heard a number of IAFF members who drive apparatus and are the only career member on the rig refer to themselves as either paid drivers or chauffers. How would a firefighter working in a better staffed dept. know that these terms might be an issue?

2nd. Lets consider that many 100% career depts call the apparatus operator either a driver or a chauffer. FDNY uses the term chauffer and still runs a chauffer school.

3rd. Lets consider some history. 110 years ago NRFD was 100% volunteer then they added paid "horse men", there job was to care for the horses and get them hooked up and "drive" the rigs. They were brought in at a time when there were over 400 volunteers. They were hired to take care of the most expensive assets of the dept. (horses and apparatus). A stoker was added as 2nd paid man on the steamers, to reduce response time. In 1927 the city switched the dept to 100% career force (this was done after the chamber of commerce proved that do to the ISO ratings, it wuld be cheaper to switch than maintain the old system).

At my 1st fire, I was the 1st volunteer to arrive onscene. The 2 "paid drivers" had already arrived with an engine & ladder. the engine "driver" stretched a line to the front door, told me to pack up and take the line in. At that time, the dept policy was that the "paid drivers" were not to go inside, that was the job for the volunteers.

Many of the depts that currently only have 1 career member on a rig developed there system when the volunteers were still very strong but, felt it was important to have career members taking care of the most expensive assets of the depts. and to keep response times short, with volunteers responding to the scene. One of the major problems that these members face is that as the numbers of volunteers dropped (total or daytime) the departments have not added enough staff to cover this major shortfall.

Thanks for the response. Let me preface my remarks with this disclaimer; I am retired and do not speak for anyone else.

Going to your 1st: The statement was that the term "paid driver/chauffer" MIGHT BE TAKEN as hurtful or mean spirited, not how it was MEANT to be interpreted. Personally, I always found it to be offensive.

You may have heard some IAFF members refer to themselves as paid chauffers. If you looked at their actual civil service job title however, I think it would probably say "firefighter". Most IAFF members I know from the smaller depts. in Westchester would bristle at the idea of being called or thought of as a "driver, chauffer." For what these members are doing by way of neccesity is performing company functions, without the safety of a company.

The scenario I proposed gave three specific answers that cover three specific COMPANY functions; rescue, engine, truck (the fourth being engine as well). It was designed to show the overwhelming complexity and decision making a solo firefighter faces after "chauffering" his rig to a fire.

When one is hired by the smaller depts. nobody takes them aside after training and says "well now you are a NYSOFPC certified probie firefighter, but being alone on a rig we only want you to DRIVE".... I think every career firefighter in this country regardless of staffing, is duty and honor bound and understands they will do anything they might have to; resulting from an order, or even acting on their own before a Commander arrives, to accomplish operational priorities; life rescue, fire suppression, scene mitigation, etc. After all that's what it means to be a firefighter yes? And some municipalities have taken advantage of that dedication by continuing to understaff, run short of rigs, etc, because they know they still get 150% out of every firefighter anyway.

Because the solo riding firefighter is at times faced with overwhelming situations, they should be applauded for the bravery and resourcefullness they regularly exhibit. Yes, one man "fire companies" have performed life saving rescues and done countless other amazing things against the odds. This qualifies them for something a bit more respectful than "driver." (Oh James, bring the Bentley around front will you...."yes boss"....)

There are IAFF members that work in larger jobs that have NO CLUE about the unique challenges and dangers the brothers/sisters from smaller depts. have endured for decades. If all of them were 100% aware, I'm sure no IAFF member would ever become a volunteer on a job with IAFF members. (I personally have no objection to a career guy volunteering in his community if it's a fully volunteer dept.)

Smaller locals have been fighting for years to gain adequate staffing. The best way to support them would be to attend council meetings and voice concern about it, and come out and vote for officials who are pro modernization.

You guys got a SAFER grant in New Rochelle, and rightfully so. You had to go high-rise, and always had your fair share of work anyway. Your dept. has come a long way from the day when we were helping you hand out fliers because the city was going to lay 8 guys off.

The case still needs to be made for other depts. in Westchester who have always lacked adequate staffing. If not SAFER, then the municipalities are going to have to come up with the money another way. And I'm not talking about nickel and dime answers. I'm talking NFPA 1710. The battle is not over until there are adequately staffed apparatus wherever there are career firefighters. Take your regionalization plans, SAFER grants, smart Chief officers and staff, visionary thinking politicians and put it all together so that the title of "paid chauffer" only applies to a fully staffed company in a fully staffed department that then truly has "chauffers".

Regarding your 2nd: A New York Fire Department apparatus operator is indeed certified through their own school and given the exclusive jobs of chauffering and motor pump operating. That's wonderful on an engine company staffed with 4 or 5 firefighters and an officer. It probalby works in New Rochelle with three member companies. But on a job with two firefighters on an engine or truck, let alone one; there is no plan that works to cover "chauffers"exclusively assigned to driving and pumps; save maybe the first due engine when more help is on scene...or at larger conflagrations.

On your 3rd: Regarding history; there is some point in every older department's history when that department was completely volunteer. I'm aware of the history, and how paid firefighters came into being. In Eastchester they started hiring paid men around the late '20's, '30's for the reasons you described.

I also realize many career firefighters started out like you; as a volunteer. This built the interest and eventually you, like myself, were very fortunate to be able to get on the job. I trained the volunteers of my combination department for many years. Most of them had a strong desire to get on the job.

I'm retired almost two years already. It truly was a great career. And now I can say what I want. Throughout my career I showed respect to volunteers; even though in my heart I didn't think they understood the struggle and challenge of career firefighters in combination" departments.

I've seen some really PRO all-volly departments in my time. And we all know the greatest departments in this country; the urban legend departments of the FDNY et.all.... are all career.

FULLY career departments can move ahead, modernize, etc. with the right leadership.

FULLY volunteer departments can do the same.

COMBINATION departments; particularly as they are structured in NYS...... are dysfunctional. They place career firefighters at greater risk because they lack an adequate first response. Often there is an undercurrent of malcontentment, discontentment, and animosity. ALL career firefighters sorely need adequate staffing and operational planning. Volunteer firefighters in combo departments are many times under-trained, and are also at greater risk due to poor operational planning. This is my opinion based on my career experience.

The system needs changing.

Here it is 2008, seven years after 9/11. Southern Westchester departments are on the frontline of defense of the Homeland, and as you pointed out some departments are still operating under 100 year old systems.

The FDNY has a mutual-aid pact with Westchester County as well as a one-way agreement with Mt. Vernon regarding the bulk oil storage installations along Eastchester Creek, and a 1994 agreement with Yonkers (Box 8999). The FDNY is prepared with bell signal 14-14+a three digit town indicator+terminal number representing a predesignated FDNY group of apparatus to respond. The FDNY did call for assistance from Middlesex, Nassau and Westchester Counties on 9/11/01.

A person of much less means living on the south side of The Bronx has better fire protection than the millionaire living on the south side of Bronxville; a mere two and change miles from NYC limits.

The time is long passed to have fully staffed career fire companies throughout southern Westchester County.

I've seen the posts on this board explaining how it isn't possible for Westchester municipalities to fund and provide full staffing.

I don't believe that is our side's argument to make or defend. I believe the firefighting community needs to make clear that it is understaffed, and make clear what is needed to fix the problems, period.

It's the politicians and powers-to-be responsibility to figure out how to fund it, not the firefighters. Unless they empower you to go after the SAFER or FIRE-ACT money, or bring you in on their regionalization plan and ask you to help figure out how to do it.

Thanks again for any and all responses.

~Fraternally yours,

Captain George G. Glover Jr. (ret)

Eastchester Fire Department IAFF 916

Edited June 16, 2008 by efdcapt115

[firemoose827 324]

This might be a simple difference of opinion, but I don't equate the words "driver" and "chauffeur" with eachother, as you do. A chauffer is a firefighter who has done his time and paid his dues, having risen to a level where he is considered worthy of being trusted with being the backbone of the team. He is the one solely responsible for maintaining a water supply or maneuvering an aerial. It is not a job to be taken lightly, as it requires a higher level of critical thinking and the ability to sometimes "think outside the box." If anything, I'd trust a chauffeur over a line firefighter anyday, and if I use it, I mean it as a term of respect. I'll be the first to admit that I don't think I possess the cognitive ability to be a good chauffeur.

I agree. I was always taught growing up in the firehouse that I was to respect officers, senior firefighters, and chauffeurs as they all deserved the same respect. Chauffeur was the first step to becoming an officer in most departments as most departments believe a good working knowledge of the trucks and its equipment was essential to being a good officer. I dont think that by calling someone "Paid Chauffeur" is any kind of insult at all, it should be taken as a compliment and anyone not taking it as a compliment needs to grow thicker skin and not take everything so personal.

Being a "Paid Chauffeur" means you are above being a firefighter. You have proven you can fight fires, now you are trusted with the truck and getting any initial actions at the fire ground started prior to the arrival of additional units and making sure the ENTIRE operation after your arrival runs smoothly....whats so disrespectful about that classification of your job title??

Can we move on to discussing more important things now? Like how many of these brothers operating alone are becoming injured or killed in the LOD because of the short staffing issues? Or how we as firefighters can do more to work together REGARDLESS of title to provide a better service to our communities? We need to work together more....

[Guest Chiefmcfuz]

Here it is 2008, seven years after 9/11. Southern Westchester departments are on the frontline of defense of the Homeland, and as you pointed out some departments are still operating under 100 year old systems.................

...................The FDNY did call for assistance from Middlesex, Nassau and Westchester Counties on 9/11/01.

:angry:

Lets not go here. If you want to debate the September 11, 2001 theories and respponses etc that people have cooked up in their heads in these surrounding counties PM me we'll sit down and talk about them over a cold one. Let's just leave it at at almost 8 years later I still have the same radio system I started with 10 years ago. And I can hardly communicate with the dispatchers when I am in buildings unless I am near a window on the brooklyn side of the building.

[ajsbear 11]

Thanks for the response. Let me preface my remarks with this disclaimer; I am retired and do not speak for anyone else.

Going to your 1st: The statement was that the term "paid driver/chauffer" MIGHT BE TAKEN as hurtful or mean spirited, not how it was MEANT to be interpreted. Personally, I always found it to be offensive.

You may have heard some IAFF members refer to themselves as paid chauffers. If you looked at their actual civil service job title however, I think it would probably say "firefighter". Most IAFF members I know from the smaller depts. in Westchester would bristle at the idea of being called or thought of as a "driver, chauffer." For what these members are doing by way of neccesity is performing company functions, without the safety of a company.

The scenario I proposed gave three specific answers that cover three specific COMPANY functions; rescue, engine, truck (the fourth being engine as well). It was designed to show the overwhelming complexity and decision making a solo firefighter faces after "chauffering" his rig to a fire.

When one is hired by the smaller depts. nobody takes them aside after training and says "well now you are a NYSOFPC certified probie firefighter, but being alone on a rig we only want you to DRIVE".... I think every career firefighter in this country regardless of staffing, is duty and honor bound and understands they will do anything they might have to; resulting from an order, or even acting on their own before a Commander arrives, to accomplish operational priorities; life rescue, fire suppression, scene mitigation, etc. After all that's what it means to be a firefighter yes? And some municipalities have taken advantage of that dedication by continuing to understaff, run short of rigs, etc, because they know they still get 150% out of every firefighter anyway.

Because the solo riding firefighter is at times faced with overwhelming situations, they should be applauded for the bravery and resourcefullness they regularly exhibit. Yes, one man "fire companies" have performed life saving rescues and done countless other amazing things against the odds. This qualifies them for something a bit more respectful than "driver." (Oh James, bring the Bentley around front will you...."yes boss"....)

There are IAFF members that work in larger jobs that have NO CLUE about the unique challenges and dangers the brothers/sisters from smaller depts. have endured for decades. If all of them were 100% aware, I'm sure no IAFF member would ever become a volunteer on a job with IAFF members. (I personally have no objection to a career guy volunteering in his community if it's a fully volunteer dept.)

Smaller locals have been fighting for years to gain adequate staffing. The best way to support them would be to attend council meetings and voice concern about it, and come out and vote for officials who are pro modernization.

You guys got a SAFER grant in New Rochelle, and rightfully so. You had to go high-rise, and always had your fair share of work anyway. Your dept. has come a long way from the day when we were helping you hand out fliers because the city was going to lay 8 guys off.

The case still needs to be made for other depts. in Westchester who have always lacked adequate staffing. If not SAFER, then the municipalities are going to have to come up with the money another way. And I'm not talking about nickel and dime answers. I'm talking NFPA 1710. The battle is not over until there are adequately staffed apparatus wherever there are career firefighters. Take your regionalization plans, SAFER grants, smart Chief officers and staff, visionary thinking politicians and put it all together so that the title of "paid chauffer" only applies to a fully staffed company in a fully staffed department that then truly has "chauffers".

Regarding your 2nd: A New York Fire Department apparatus operator is indeed certified through their own school and given the exclusive jobs of chauffering and motor pump operating. That's wonderful on an engine company staffed with 4 or 5 firefighters and an officer. It probalby works in New Rochelle with three member companies. But on a job with two firefighters on an engine or truck, let alone one; there is no plan that works to cover "chauffers"exclusively assigned to driving and pumps; save maybe the first due engine when more help is on scene...or at larger conflagrations.

On your 3rd: Regarding history; there is some point in every older department's history when that department was completely volunteer. I'm aware of the history, and how paid firefighters came into being. In Eastchester they started hiring paid men around the late '20's, '30's for the reasons you described.

I also realize many career firefighters started out like you; as a volunteer. This built the interest and eventually you, like myself, were very fortunate to be able to get on the job. I trained the volunteers of my combination department for many years. Most of them had a strong desire to get on the job.

I'm retired almost two years already. It truly was a great career. And now I can say what I want. Throughout my career I showed respect to volunteers; even though in my heart I didn't think they understood the struggle and challenge of career firefighters in combination" departments.

I've seen some really PRO all-volly departments in my time. And we all know the greatest departments in this country; the urban legend departments of the FDNY et.all.... are all career.

FULLY career departments can move ahead, modernize, etc. with the right leadership.

FULLY volunteer departments can do the same.

COMBINATION departments; particularly as they are structured in NYS...... are dysfunctional. They place career firefighters at greater risk because they lack an adequate first response. Often there is an undercurrent of malcontentment, discontentment, and animosity. ALL career firefighters sorely need adequate staffing and operational planning. Volunteer firefighters in combo departments are many times under-trained, and are also at greater risk due to poor operational planning. This is my opinion based on my career experience.

The system needs changing.

Here it is 2008, seven years after 9/11. Southern Westchester departments are on the frontline of defense of the Homeland, and as you pointed out some departments are still operating under 100 year old systems.

The FDNY has a mutual-aid pact with Westchester County as well as a one-way agreement with Mt. Vernon regarding the bulk oil storage installations along Eastchester Creek, and a 1994 agreement with Yonkers (Box 8999). The FDNY is prepared with bell signal 14-14+a three digit town indicator+terminal number representing a predesignated FDNY group of apparatus to respond. The FDNY did call for assistance from Middlesex, Nassau and Westchester Counties on 9/11/01.

A person of much less means living on the south side of The Bronx has better fire protection than the millionaire living on the south side of Bronxville; a mere two and change miles from NYC limits.

The time is long passed to have fully staffed career fire companies throughout southern Westchester County.

I've seen the posts on this board explaining how it isn't possible for Westchester municipalities to fund and provide full staffing.

I don't believe that is our side's argument to make or defend. I believe the firefighting community needs to make clear that it is understaffed, and make clear what is needed to fix the problems, period.

It's the politicians and powers-to-be responsibility to figure out how to fund it, not the firefighters. Unless they empower you to go after the SAFER or FIRE-ACT money, or bring you in on their regionalization plan and ask you to help figure out how to do it.

Thanks again for any and all responses.

~Fraternally yours,

Captain George G. Glover Jr. (ret)

Eastchester Fire Department IAFF 916

George i have to agree with a lot of what you say but taken the senerio in the first post, Career or Vollunteer, you are the first to arrive and your training takes over. You go to work. You make your disisions. Forget the Monday morning quarterbacks. As an old chief told me when it comes to saving a life, the rules go out the window. There are no rules at that point just the objective.

[helicopper 1,050]

As an old chief told me when it comes to saving a life, the rules go out the window. There are no rules at that point just the objective.

That's ridiculous! You don't discard your rules or training when a life is at stake. The rules and training should be consistent with the objective - otherwise why train and why have rules? Hopefully that's a retired old chief and he's not still promoting that kind of attitude.

I'll concede that judgement calls need to be made in such situations but you can't promote the mindset that you'll just "do whatever" when a life is at stake. Rules and training exist to protect all of us! If a civilian can't be rescued, that's a tragedy! If firefighters die (as they have in so many instances) because obvious hazards and safety rules were ignored because a civilian was in peril that's just negligence.

Didn't a certain department in a certain southeastern state just get beat up for ignoring rules and training and obvious hazards?

Isn't there always a life at stake when you're battling a fire? YOURS!!!!!

[efdcapt115 1,511]

:angry:

Lets not go here. If you want to debate the September 11, 2001 theories and respponses etc that people have cooked up in their heads in these surrounding counties PM me we'll sit down and talk about them over a cold one.

Actually Chief that was a direct quote from "Fire Department of New York-an Operational Reference" fourth edition updated January 2002, Special Printing for Bureaus of Training and Communications" by James S. Griffiths pgs.54-55. I apologize I should have given that credit in my post.

How the mutual aid on that day did or did not work is of course a subject for debate, and probably left for another thread on another day.

~Regards.

[Raz 14]

Being a "Paid Chauffeur" means you are above being a firefighter. You have proven you can fight fires, now you are trusted with the truck and getting any initial actions at the fire ground started prior to the arrival of additional units and making sure the ENTIRE operation after your arrival runs smoothly....whats so disrespectful about that classification of your job title??

Can we move on to discussing more important things now? Like how many of these brothers operating alone are becoming injured or killed in the LOD because of the short staffing issues? Or how we as firefighters can do more to work together REGARDLESS of title to provide a better service to our communities? We need to work together more....

I can't tell if you think I was offended personally by the posts in this thread, or if you're just responding using "you" and "your" in the general sense. Either way, it seems that we're in agreement on the chauffeur subject. If I seemed offended with the "paid driver" topic, it's because I've seen 18 year old volunteers without so much as Firefighter 1 under their belt referring to Academy graduates as being beneath them, and in that case, you're damn right that I'm offended on behalf of my brothers.

As for the staffing issues that you and Captain Glover bring up, I'll respond by saying this: I'd feel safer working in the busiest FDNY house than in some of these Westchester departments that only staff one man on a rig. You might see a 500% increase in fires and other dangerous activities, but at least you know that you'll have 4-5 other fully trained and dependable guys showing up with you. You hear stories like this from WWII, when guys would sign up for more dangerous assignments because they knew it meant that they would have a good unit around them. It beat taking your chances with a less dangerous assignment and getting stuck with an unproven or no good unit.

[firepunk 3]

Smaller locals have been fighting for years to gain adequate staffing. The best way to support them would be to attend council meetings and voice concern about it, and come out and vote for officials who are pro modernization.

They don't care if you go to meetings they only care about dollars and cents

COMBINATION departments; particularly as they are structured in NYS...... are dysfunctional. They place career firefighters at greater risk because they lack an adequate first response. Often there is an undercurrent of malcontentment, discontentment, and animosity. ALL career firefighters sorely need adequate staffing and operational planning. Volunteer firefighters in combo departments are many times under-trained, and are also at greater risk due to poor operational planning. This is my opinion based on my career experience.

TRUTH WELL SPOKEN.

A person of much less means living on the south side of The Bronx has better fire protection than the millionaire living on the south side of Bronxville; a mere two and change miles from NYC limits.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GO OUTSIDE THAT FOR. LOOK AT MUNDY LN IN MOUNT VERNON. ONE SIDE IS FDMV THE OTHER IS FDNY. LOOK AT MOUNT TOM RD IN PELHAM MANOR AND NEW ROCHELLE. ONE MILLION DOLLAR HOUSE GETS 3 & 2 WITH 3 MEN PER AND THE OTHER GETS 2 & 1 WITH 1 PER. SAME THING IN THAT WEAVER STREET CORNER OF NEW ROCHELLE SCARSDALE AND MAMARONECK LOOK AT NEW ROCHELLE RD IN EASTCHESTER. THEY GUYS IN STATION 5 IN EASTCHESTER CANT RESPOND ACROSS THE STREET TO THE MOBIL OR THE HOUSES IN 1 BLOCK. IT IS SO SCARY HOW FIRE PROTECTION CAB BE SO DIFFERENT JUST BECAUSE YOU LIVE ACROSS THE STREET OR NEXT TO YOUR NEIGHBOR.

[firemoose827 324]

I can't tell if you think I was offended personally by the posts in this thread, or if you're just responding using "you" and "your" in the general sense. Either way, it seems that we're in agreement on the chauffeur subject. If I seemed offended with the "paid driver" topic, it's because I've seen 18 year old volunteers without so much as Firefighter 1 under their belt referring to Academy graduates as being beneath them, and in that case, you're damn right that I'm offended on behalf of my brothers.

Looks as if we are in agreement on TWO subjects now brother!! I also cant stand the "perfect" attitude of todays "Newbies" fresh out of Firefighter I and how they think they are gods gift to firefighting...they need to be taken into a real ripper and let them experience first hand the intense heat and smoke and darkness, and feel the confusion of not knowing which way is up and see how "Macho" they act and how fast they can come up with all the answers then!!

And yes, I was just answering in the general sense to so many people who were offended by this title, its just that you worded it exactly the way I wanted to, so I quoted you also to say that I supported your views on the subject overall.

[firecapt32 282]

What a great thread--lots of good comments--lots of feed back and every one is civil.

efdcapt a few years ago--- more then a few. The situation you described in the opening actualy happened here in Westchester. I wont go into details of what department thats not necessary---but what followed might be of interest. The firefighter that was operating the first enging on the scene(alone) was informed that some people were in the home. He set the pump in gear doned his scba and made entry-- thankfully they were with in 10 feet of the door. The citizens were removed sucessfully and turned over to a waiting ambulance. By that time other apparatus arrived and the fire was contained. However the Chief of the Department was screaming mad that the firefighter left the engine unmaned and was bringing the firefighter up on departmental charges-- I guess leaving the apparatus was a violation of some rule and regulation. Well charges were about to be filed against this firefighter but when it was learned that some one had fowarded all the information about the sucessfull rescue to the press and the NYSPFFA, The firefighter was awarded a metal for his bravery and honored at a convention.

Hopefully things have changed in that department. We stil haev a long way to go

[Guest Chiefmcfuz]

Actually Chief that was a direct quote from "Fire Department of New York-an Operational Reference" fourth edition updated January 2002, Special Printing for Bureaus of Training and Communications" by James S. Griffiths pgs.54-55. I apologize I should have given that credit in my post.

How the mutual aid on that day did or did not work is of course a subject for debate, and probably left for another thread on another day.

~Regards.

You can quote god himself. You don't have any idea. The city writes lots of things. Look at our last 2 contract proposals.

Back to topic.

Career Firefighters is the PC term to use ladies and gentlemen.

Also keep in mind that the term Volly is a disrespectful mode of address and that the PC term is Volunteer Firefighters.

Hey I just realized something, Why not just call everyone Firefighters and leave it at that? Holy moley a common denominator!!

[firemoose827 324]

Hey I just realized something, Why not just call everyone Firefighters and leave it at that? Holy moley a common denominator!!

Chiefmcfuz....thats exactly what a lot of us in this site have been trying to do for a long time now...but the senseless argument always pops up and the poor dead horse is repeatedly kicked over and over. But Im glad to hear you say it at least. Thanks.

Moose

[Bnechis 3,961]

Hey I just realized something, Why not just call everyone Firefighters and leave it at that? Holy moley a common denominator!!

Do we call a new and unproven career member who has completed 480+ hrs of fire training a firefighter or a probie?

Generally, they are called probies, when they complete a year of training, monthly evaluations then they get a firefighters front and get to turn in there pumpkin front.

Until, we have minimum standards, when do we call someone a firefighter?

"If I seemed offended with the "paid driver" topic, it's because I've seen 18 year old volunteers without so much as Firefighter 1 under their belt referring to Academy graduates as being beneath them, and in that case, you're damn right that I'm offended on behalf of my brothers."

Does this 18 y/o deserve to be called a firefighter?

[firemoose827 324]

Do we call a new and unproven career member who has completed 480+ hrs of fire training a firefighter or a probie?

Generally, they are called probies, when they complete a year of training, monthly evaluations then they get a firefighters front and get to turn in there pumpkin front.

Until, we have minimum standards, when do we call someone a firefighter?

"If I seemed offended with the "paid driver" topic, it's because I've seen 18 year old volunteers without so much as Firefighter 1 under their belt referring to Academy graduates as being beneath them, and in that case, you're damn right that I'm offended on behalf of my brothers."

Does this 18 y/o deserve to be called a firefighter?

Technically he/she is still a probie, until a seasoned, tested firefighter takes them into a few fires and makes them "Understand" their training they were so boastfuly bragging about.

Doesnt the fire service have different levels of firefighter? Probie, firefighter, chauffeur, officer, senior firefighter? Just curious.

[Raz 14]

Doesnt the fire service have different levels of firefighter? Probie, firefighter, chauffeur, officer, senior firefighter? Just curious.

I knew we just had a thread about this, so I looked it up and lo and behold, it was actually started by you ("NYS Training Standards Need Change" over in the Firefighting forum). I think your first post in that topic shows why any perceived "levels of firefighter" are meaningless, due to a lack of uniformity in terms and titles. Hell, I've seen departments that can't even figure out what to call the guy in charge.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Raz

[Guest Chiefmcfuz]

Do we call a new and unproven career member who has completed 480+ hrs of fire training a firefighter or a probie?

Generally, they are called probies, when they complete a year of training, monthly evaluations then they get a firefighters front and get to turn in there pumpkin front.

Until, we have minimum standards, when do we call someone a firefighter?

"If I seemed offended with the "paid driver" topic, it's because I've seen 18 year old volunteers without so much as Firefighter 1 under their belt referring to Academy graduates as being beneath them, and in that case, you're damn right that I'm offended on behalf of my brothers."

Does this 18 y/o deserve to be called a firefighter?

The moral of the story is to stop beating the deat horse that moose mentioned. Let the politicians worry about titles. We have a job to do whether career or volunteer. Do the Job, work together and be done with it. Move on to the next topic. There is strength in numbers and if we work together nobody can stop us.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Thank you to all who took the time to respond to this topic. It's been fun bantering these thoughts around with all of you. I would like to reiterate some of the things I thought were important, and if you would indulge me for a few moments, maybe tie up some loose ends of the discussion.

I used the point about career firefighters and the term "paid driver/chauffer" to try and open the door to the larger discussion about what direction the firefighting forces in southern Westchester need to be preparing to take.

"Paid driver" IS and SHOULD BE part of the past. We may disagree about technicalities; the difference between driver and chauffer, but to me the point remains the same. A Chauffer by it's very meaning implies you have somebody to chauffer or drive around. Thus the term is quite appropriate for an adequately staffed rig; the truck chauffer wheels around all those guys one of you were referring to; the can man, the O.V. man, the Officer, the force-entry guy, the roof man all comprising a ladder company, or the nozzleman, the back-up man, the door-man, the control man and once again the officer, this time of the engine company.

Yes indeed; the chauffer is usually a senior and experienced brother, and if the officer happens to be covering, he/she will rely on that chauffer to know his district; the streets, the hazards, the structures, construction types and most importantly where the best grocery store is, the best bagels, coffee and sambucca! (ah the good old days)

But what career or combination department in Westchester truly has all of this? I believe Yonkers Fire comes closest with three firefighters and an officer on every rig. Next we have New Rochelle with two firefighters and an officer. Then we have Mt. Vernon, but it varies as to what they will be riding with (?). Then we have good ole Eastchester with two men per rig. Don't forget the Greenburghs; I know they have made strides in improving manpower over the years. Then we have the smaller departments and the malaise of single firefighter "chauffering." I think Larchmont is able to field a couple of guys on an engine..maybe not all the time though. (please forgive me if I'm not 100% accurate. I've been soaking up a lot of sun and salt water since I retired and sometimes when I'm out floating on the ocean all of these memories kind of keep drifting on out to sea....even when I return to land!) Scarsdale has a two man truck somewhere don't they? But alas as one astute brother pointed out earlier; you get to Pelham Manor and have half a battalion across the street....and one and one on PM's side. Or three guys on two rigs in Pelham. How about Harrison these days? Anybody know if they've managed to boost up the manpower....

The brothers and sister in Eastchester can almost claim the largest victory. Over the years of battling, they were able to obtain a 100% increase in manpower per rig. They went from one.....to two. I used to kid my group and say "they increased manpower by 100% and decreased brainpower by 50%!" All kidding aside, I'm sure each of you feel as I do; the firefighters I worked alongside were simply "the best." The guy to the left of you and the guy to the right of you. That's really who we fight for right? (that's a line from Black Hawk Down)

The Federal Gov't thinks southern Westchester is a vital resource in Homeland Security in the post 9/11 era; as evidenced by their funding of the Haz-Mat Support Squads. Kudos to Chiefs Fitzpatrick and Reed, and the tireless efforts of the members of Yonkers E-311, and the NRFD brothers as well as ALL others who have put literally hundreds if not thousands of hours into building up the Squad system. They have taught hundreds of brothers Haz-mat 101. The Squads are a constant reminder to all that the world changed forever on 9/11. The career firefighting forces in southern Westchester have answered the call to step up their game.

Now it's the local governments in southern Westchester; the fire comissions, the village and town boards, and city councils that need to step up. Does anybody know that status of that regionalization study? If it hasn't already come and gone (and I missed it) it deserves serious consideration; IF it's a serious study and not a white-wash. What it comes down to is; whatever it takes, if there's any chance something like that might work and be palpable to all the IAFF locals, I cross my fingers and wish you all the best of luck. This could be the watershed moment that changes the fire service in lower Westchester, and makes it look more like the Bronx and less like Beijing.

I'm allowing myself to consider the possibility, but in no way am I endorsing anything without having ever seen a proposal or the ideas behind it even. I imagine the approach of pragmatic leadership of most of the locals is to take a wait and see attitude. Then again the locals could be heavily involved in the planning. I know if I was running that show I'd have them all in in there as much as possible. Openness and inclusiveness could be one of the keys to success. Usually big plans that are hatched by just a few and kept very secret are met with skepticism and rejection.

But one thing I do believe is that the career force and volunteer forces should be seperated. Should some kind of plan be put into the works, it's high time to let go of the belief that combination departments can somehow be salvaged. They cannot. It would be much better to create (remember I'm just thinking here, so don't crucify me) a unified force of career firefighters and one of volunteers.

Now that I think about it all, it does seem kind of overwhelming. So many issues, so many fiefdoms, so many Chiefs, so many firehouses, so many fire engines....................................................

Ahh fergit it.

~Stay safe everybody.

George

[Bnechis 3,961]

Does anybody know that status of that regionalization study? If it hasn't already come and gone (and I missed it) it deserves serious consideration; IF it's a serious study and not a white-wash. What it comes down to is; whatever it takes, if there's any chance something like that might work and be palpable to all the IAFF locals, I cross my fingers and wish you all the best of luck.

The Draft was sent to the chiefs. they were asked to comment on any factual errors in it and in the next week or 2 any issues will be corrected and then a final report will be released.

Its serious. there are good and bad points...all pointed out. The main issue is it will make every rig 3ff & 1 officer. with 22 on all 1st alarm responses. I think the locals will be ok with it, the bigger question will be the politicians.

Thanks for the support.

[Raz 14]

The moral of the story is to stop beating the deat horse that moose mentioned.

OK.

We have a job to do whether career or volunteer.

Agreed.

Do the Job, work together and be done with it.

Agreed.

Let the politicians worry about titles

..And you lost me. Why would you ever want politicians making FD choices? They have no idea about anything having to do with the actual fire service, and those that think they do have usually been given all the wrong information.

Scarsdale has a two man truck somewhere don't they?

Scarsdale's truck still rolls with one man. All of their engines and the command car roll with two.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Raz

[firemoose827 324]

I knew we just had a thread about this, so I looked it up and lo and behold, it was actually started by you ("NYS Training Standards Need Change" over in the Firefighting forum). I think your first post in that topic shows why any perceived "levels of firefighter" are meaningless, due to a lack of uniformity in terms and titles. Hell, I've seen departments that can't even figure out what to call the guy in charge.

What I was making reference to in my reply to Captain Bnechis is the titles used by career departments that HAVE uniform training standards.

In my end of the world its difficult to give someone a title because you can take a course, not have to take a test, but get a certificate saying you "Completed Firefighter I"...What Im saying in both these posts and my topic "NYS Training Standards need change" is that a unified system needs to be placed in effect for ALL members of a department STATE WIDE, and maybe even have a refresher training system set up for every 3-5 years, like EMT's do, to re-certify your level of training.

Some people in volunteer departments just want the "Title" to put on resumes for other jobs...Like becoming Career Firefighter, or just to show community service for political campaigns to run for mayor or whatever floats their boats. But then theres other firefighters that take training seriously and get all they can, than seek out the senior firefighters at calls to take them under their wing so to speak, and get the experience needed to finish off their training.

Sorry to go off topic, I just wanted to address something that was brought up. But to clarify my stand on this topic, If I ever think of a Chauffeur in the fire service I think of it respectfully, and I look up to that person as I would an officer.