Ladder or Tower

[Guest DG795]

Personally, I prefer the "stairs" to the "elevator". In my opinion, whether or not a department uses a Tower or Stick is dependant on the district features...Each offers distinct advantages depending on what you are looking for.

[CM36 4]

taht is a good thought and i do agree with you

[HFD23 37]

I deffinatly agree what it depends on the district, how ever i still stand by the fact it would be best to have both. in hartsdale we have many 2 and 3 story house's along with 2 or 3 story comercial buildings, how ever we also have east hartsdale ave with many 5 and 6 story appartment buildings which require a 95 foot tower ladder to reach the roof, i stand by the fact that a tower is alot safe to work from and better for prolonged operations with master streams, how ever i do wish we had a aerial platform like FFD's new ladder 1 which combines the stick with with bucket giving the ability to climb the ladder and change personel or bring up equipment or victims downt he ladder while the bucket remains up in operation.. While i stand by the Tower as the most effective means of master stream defensive operations.. i would love to have the luxury of a 75 foot quint in hartsdale, because lets face it Tl 15 serves little purpose at a small 2 story house fire that is on the same side of the street as the power lines serving basicly as a ground ladder rig, a quint could be backed under the lines being a rear mount and put to work with roof work where as the mid mount tower ladders would have a lot tougher time with the over head wires... the quint could also if necessary be placed thorugh the wires alot easyer. i have been tring to sell the idea of running TL-15 Eng 169 out of station 2 and buy a Quint to run out of station one in place of 170 and put 170 as the spare leaving 171 for training.. Option 2 would be leaving 169 and 170 in service one at station one and one at station 2 and making the tower ladder and the quit the swing ring where the crew would change rigs based on the structure type.. and the remaing truck would stay in quarters and be filled with off duty personal and respond to the scene at that point, or remain in quarters on standby rather then bring in mutual aid companies if they were not required to the scene... Just a few ideas to think about...Any one have any other suggestions?

[LFD171 0]

Here in Larchmont, we have a 95ft. Tower which is just too darn big and clumsy forsome of our streets. It's also very tough to get up due to the trees and wires that are everywhere here. The Town of Mamaroneck is our 2nd due truck with Ladder 19 (a 1998 Seagrave 100ft rearmount stick) They get that thing into the tightest places imaginable.

Towers have their place, but there shouldn't be one in every town like what is starting to happen to westchester. In the past 3 years alone, Chappaqua, Valhalla, Croton, Peekskill and purchase have switched from sticks to towers.

[x635 4,066]

57

I must agree. I've gotten to know TL57 very well thanks to the "Battalion" and "Division" , and it's a very well spec'd and well equipped truck (looks great too, lol)

Despite looking pretty big, this truck is quite manuverable.I've seen it set up and operate in some tight spaces. And the aerialscope, despite not having a full walkway, does have some distinct advanges, such as it's durability,bucket capcities,flow, and jack spread. The one disadvantage would be the no walkway, but I wonder if Aerialscope would sell more if the could develop a high handrail system that would fold down (so it doesnt get caught in trees) like seen on some Sutphens. As for the durability, its proven, you often see aerialscopes refurbished, many of them after serving 10 or more years in NYC.

I got to "play with" a Metz Aerial at a trade show over the summer, and I'm suprised more people have not gone with this. It's extremly manuverable and compact, can operate on signicant grades, and can be a tower or straight stick. They're the most popular and sometimes only ladder found in Europe, which has some really tough places to set up.

The one major drawback on this apparatus is the lack of compartment space, an issue I think the will have to work on to sell more of these.

I think it is ideal to have both types of apparatus at every fire. Like LFD171 said, there is an increasing amount of TL's in this county. I wonder if there is an actual benefit, or should they be spread out more.

I also see departments that are more rural in WC that did not have aerials in the past getting one.

It's all in how you spec. In reality, alot depends on the spec, driver and training, and also how well the truck is designed to fit the community and SOP's it will operate in.

[x635 4,066]

Another debate I am also interested in is rear mount vs. midmount tower ladder. I don't personally understand any advantadges to a rear mount TL. (RM Disadvantages: Platform setdown limits, bucket access, travel height, range of motion,etc. Maybe advantages are storage space, shorter wheelbase, and ability to operate like a regular RM lddr?

[Guest DG795]

Just a shot in the dark here.....but it would appear to me that by having a RM Tower it allows the arial piece to be placed slightly higher over the body, perhaps adding compartment space?....Another thought, maybe departments that previously have a RM ladder decided it would just be easier to stick with the philosophy of RM placement and operation than to switch the habits of drivers to comply with mid-mount operations....just theories, maybe someone from croton could shed more light on the subject?

[Remember585 815]

Doug, I posted a reply in the mid-mount / rear-mount area. Hope it helps.

[msm232 69]

The question I have is for the departments that have gotten rid of the sticks and gone to T/L's. Why? What has the stick not done that you want it to do? Most of Westchester is residential,, like Chap FD. How do you justfy going from 100' stick to a 70+ (what ever that is) Quint that is not running 1st due!!! Has the size of the home and set backs shrunk? or Has there been an influx of Taxpayers been built in the lovly hamlet of Chappaqua? Most of the time, in my opinion, there is a lack of forethought associated with these major purchases. How can a FD buy a piece of apparatus that does not go places in the district it may be needed? Yet, year in and year out this is happening in these departments. The thrill of getting a new truck, A TOWER LADDER over whelms any kind rational thoughts(strategy and Tactics) regarding residential structure fires. Don't get me wrong T/L's have their places in the fire service and several departments in Westchester warrant this type of equipment. But does Fairview need one, when Elmsford, White Plains, Hartdale, and Valhalla all have similar units soooo close. Sooner or later these types of poor stratefic decisions(Decisions that last 20 to 25 years) will come back to haunt the fire service and particularly those districts in the future. Keep your head down and Stay Safe.

[x635 4,066]

Some great points there.......also, I think TL's cost signifcantly more to aqquire and maintain then regular straight sticks......when you have TL's within a reasonable distance, can't the money be spent wiser elsewhere? Tower Ladders rock, and are a great tool, but, IMO, not in every single community. You lose a huge tactical advantage (manuvering, etc) when that happens.

Also, Chappaqua you have Mount Kisco,Pleasantville, Thornwood, and Bedford Hills all nearby with TL's.

I too sometimes wonder, what happened to the good old straight stick truck?Whereas the TL company used to be more of a specialty unit, now a straight stick ladder is becoming the specialty unit.

[SteveOFD 176]

Spring Valley in Rockland recently got a 100' Metz.

[msm232 69]

Spring Valley is good example of a volunteer department that catches major work and will regret buying that Metz ladder.....they got rid of one of the best early quints ever made.... 1981/82 American Lafrance 75' single axle quint.... That apparatus was on the cover of FireHouse Mag Twice!!!! What a work horse battle wagon of a vehicle......Spring Valley has companies and I believe, the companies try to out do each other and therefore " Bigger is Better mentality" might have something to with that purchase.....Firefighting is very different in other parts of the world. Many places do not believe in interior attacks. Beware of vehicles that are not made in the US and have separate chassis, body and ladder manufacturers. Single source manufactures are the only way to go.....The metz has a detathable bucket, try doing that on a night like tonight. KISS method RULES. (Keep it simple stupid) (1) reason sticks are better for most departments are for there ease of deployment. Most standard duty ladder require only 2 stablizer jacks. Out/Down! Done! In the Town of Mt. Pleasant alone, Vahalla, Thornwood, Pleasantville, Hawthorne, Chappaqua, and Sleepy Hollow. Six out 10 departments have T/L's in mostly residential areas. Some stationed less then 1 mile away from each other. 4 to be exact - yet homes burn to the ground because of areas that do not have hydrants in these districts....is there something wrong with this picture! Keep you head down and stay safe.

[Guest DG795]

As far as the metz is concerned, it is a very versatile rig, manufactured to ver high standards. Its negative elevation capacity is unmatched by any American manufacturer. The apparatus is extensively used throughout europe, with excellent results. But it must be taken into consideration the differences in european firefighting and american firefighting. Many european departments only special call their ladders, if required. Most european fire dept's dont make interior attacks as aggressively as the west. So, what is good for them doesnt necessarily mean its right for us.

The Mets also takes away significant compartment space, If you look at the european chassis, there is vistually no compartment space, compared with the "rolling toolbox" philosophy of american truck ops.

Another consideration for the metz is production cost. even if you take it on a european chassis, its still needs to be shipped here. And if you put it on an American chassis, it has to be shipped over and back.

As far as spring valley is concerned, they are an excellent volunteer department dealing with major work. Im sure that they didnt make a rash decision for their purchase, and I believe it will be the test of the european design in american markets.

Onto ladder vs. tower, I believe that westchester county is in "full tower mode". A tower ladder is an excellent tool, and very versatile apparatus. however, a straight stick is also a versatile tool, and a better choice in some applications. The best way to make this work is to have towers and sticks compliment each other...with a split county wide. this can give dept's a "best of both worlds" situation, and with a little preplanning and structured response, the system could work out....of course if we continue in the direction we are going in, we will be the first all tower county in NYS.

[msm232 69]

I would like to think that the fire department leadership of Westchester County would consider structured response as far as apparatus and tactics are concerned but it's just not going to happen. It has to happen between departments first, some are doing it on a small scale with dual responses and training. But as far as apparatus, and how departments decide to switch from ladder to towers, nothing will change in the near future, because the proliferation of T/L's in Westchester County will continue, these changes last 20 to 25 years if not more. Keep you down and stay safe.

[Guest]

baker aerial scope all the way baby

[Guest EKUColonelFF]

Should "Trucks" (Straight Stick's or Tower Ladder's) be equipped with a pump? Why or why not?

[Guest DG795]

I absolutely think ladder apparatus should be free of a pump. Some dept's that run quints are very happy with them, and it has worked out well, especially in smaller dept's. For them quints are the way to go. For everyone else:

Their seems to be a myth in the fire service that a quint is the end all- save all for every manpower and apparatus issue. It simply is not the answer to all the problems of the fire service.

Departments that spec a ladder often just "throw a pump on" to make it a "more versatile rig". many times there is no thought to what is given up by adding hose and pumps.

GVW concerns are rarely addressed, and a ladder that would be compliant by weight is often thrown far and above a safe weight by adding a pump and tank.

Well, your responding to a scene...now are you a truck co. or engine co.? you wont know untill you get there. this can throw a wrench in the works as far as pre-planning, placement, etc.

The 5 inch chutes on the rear of quint can be very dangerous. a dept in NJ (The name escapes me at the moment) wrote several articles in fire apparatus journals about an incident in which a hydrant was wrapped, and a 5 inch coupling snagged the chute. this caused the hydrant to be ripped out of the ground, and delayed water supply for a substantial amount of time.

Their is no quint on the market that can perform engine operations better then an engine. dont be fooled be manufacturers that advertise such phrases as "all the equip. on your engine can fit on this quint" yes, you may be able to somehow squeeze all this hose and fittings, etc on there, but how accessable is it?

I have a collection of photographs of quints that arrived 2nd due and were seated very nicely at the hydrant, hundreds of feet away from the fire building....should have saved money and just bought an engine.

YOU CAN CONTROL BOTH THE AERIAL PIECE AND THE PUMP FROM THE PUMP PANEL! doesnt your chauffeur have enough to worry about when he pulls up to a scene? he doesnt have 4 hands....if there are people hanging from windows, then he isnt going to get water flowing quickly, if he sets up the pump first, roof access will be delayed.

A standard 8 man cab isnt going to allow enough personnel to adequately perform BOTH truck and engine ops. for example, with four firefighters and an officer, you could put a minimum of 2 men on a hose line, this leaves 2 more to search, vent the roof, open windows, control utilities and open up for the engine co's. not to mention there is no other officer for the "two man truck co". Having a quint is NOT the answer to most manpower issues.

Too many people think of a truck co. as the aerial piece on top. The important part is the toolbox below it. The same toolbox that gets eaten up by tanks and pumps.

Apparatus manufacturers will build you whatever you want. They dont care if it is right for your dept, they want you to spend money on their newest, latest, or biggest product. It is up to you to decide whether or not a rig is right for the dept. We may see a huge 1500gpm 500gal 110ft. quint and be impressed, but look deeper...can the truck fit on the districts roads? does it handle safely? has it been "bastardized" and "modified" to either fit into the firehouse or carry more equip? Is it too heavy for bridges? does the chassis adquetely support it? Also...will the chassis adequately support it in 5 years? in 10?

In conclusion, westchester county is mostly engine oriented, which could be a cause of the "quint boom". However this boom is also happening nation wide. I am not anti-quint, and I think that several depts have utilized them properly. I am only providing a different point of view, and trying to encourage dept's to think before they pour money into a massive quint. The quint concept isnt a win/win...like anything else, something must be given up to gain something else...

OK, now lets hear from the quint fans out there...

[Guest EKUColonelFF]

I agree with most of what DG795 has said however I feel a few points need to be touched upon/addressed. Quints have their place in the fire service which I think we will all agree. The problem comes along when a department specs out a quint without the prior understanding how the department is going to utilize this apparatus. Many departments spec out and purchase "Ladder Trucks" with a pump just because they have the money and feel that it is good to have a pump for versatility. This concept is not wrong however as DG795 has already stated, you must be aware what you are giving up in order to have a pump.

A little background on ladder trucks...ladder trucks have the most compartment space out of most fire apparatus (I don't say all because in some instances this is not true however this is typically so). The function of a ladder truck and its company is to perform forcible entry, search and rescue, and ventilation. I am not going to go into all the equipment a typical ladder truck carries but I do want you to think of this equipment and think of the space needed to carry all of it. Now, with the addition of a pump you loose a large percentage of your compartment space (I believe they say you loose at a minimum of 25%).

As stated already, quints have their purpose in the fire service. DG795 very well stated that quints have worked for many departments. All that is asked is that an evaluation of your needs as a department (not only a company) is addressed and only then shall a decision of the type of fire apparatus be made. If a quint is the choice of your department, carefully spec it out accordingly. Remember efficiency should never be compromised for looks and or size. A review of your departments SOP/SOG's should be considered and possibly revised with the addition of a quint to your fleet.

One aditional concern with quints is the added maintence that is assoiated with having a pump. Though I have yet to research it, I do believe ISO would require anualy pump tests as well as ladder tests to meet rating requirements. For those un familiour with ISO (Insurance Service Organization), Each apparatus is required to meet certain requirements such as type and quanty of equpment, capabilities of equipment, response time and more. Replacing an existing apparatus with a quint may affect your ISO rating. This is just one other thing to look into. If anyone has more information to add to this issue feel free.

[TRUCK6018 50]

Any vehicle with a pump whether it's an engine or truck is required to be tested annually to maintain the applicable the ISO credit.

EKUColonelFF is right, replacing an existing apparatus with a quint will typically effect your ISO rating. ISO will rate a quint as either one of two things. 1 engine and 1/2 ladder OR 1 ladder and 1/2 engine.

For anyone interested, more information on ISO can be found at

http://www.isomitigation.com/ or http://www.isoslayer.com/.

[Guest Lieutenant6474]

The unfortunate truth is much of the apparatus purchasing in W. Co. is done by people who buy because they "like" or "think they need" apparatus.

I commend Bedford Village, Katonah, etc who don't have ladders and have been working great for a century without them.

Ossining just bought another straight stick instead of bucket. Mohegan also has also taken advantage of the straight job... A Telesquirt, 75ft Quint and now a 100ft quint (I think).

We should buy apparatus based on need. Why are there cascades sitting on every new Rescue built. Why does Mt. Pleasant have 5+ Tower Ladders in a 5sq mile radius. What a waste. Maybe we can get departments down county departments to start buying 3000gal tankers... Yeah that would be great... A tanker in every station from Port Chester to Pelham.

[CM36 4]

Font color: I have to agree down in Ardsley, Dobbs, Elmsford, Hastings, Tarrytown, Harstadle, Greenville, Fairview, Irvington, and Sleepy thier are 5 bucket and word has it that Tarrytown is getting a tower or bucket. I mean that thier are to many buckets in a small area Ardsley, Irvington, Greenville, and Hastings all have sticks and Elmsford has both. If you buy a tower ladder the that means that you are setting up your department to be defensive department. Their a tower ladder is a great thing to have becuase when you do have to go to a defensive mode it is good to have. A stick is much more versital I feel. It can be used to be set up as a tripod for trench resuces also it can get through over head wires.

As for the Quint issue a is avery good truck to have becaue it is a two in one turck it has a ladder and pump. I am a fan of the Quint but if i had to choose between a truck w/pump or a Quint iI would chosse the Truck. beacuse you more space to put truck company operation tools like saws, hooks, ladders, FAST team equipment, extraction tools, and also salvage stuff too. I know on are quint we can use more space becuse thier some thing that we don't have on the truck that we should.