MVA w/ Excellent Scene Safety

[x635 4,066]

I usually don't take incident photos unless I come upon them, which I did during my travels recently. Although I only got this one shot of this incident, I think it's a neat one that demonstrates proper apparatus placement at an highway scene.

Also notice all personel in traffic vests.

[DaRock98 76]

I like the ladder placement I have brought up bring our ladder out on to the parkways and have got nothing but resistance from my dept. There reasoning is that there will be to much apparatus out on the parkway and there is no need to have a ladder on all it will do is be in the way. I think it is an excellent idea and adds a lot more safety to the scene then just having 1 engine and a utility that is no bigger then the bus in the picture above. So my question to all of you is how many depts do actually bring a ladder out on the parkway for MVA's? and do you feel that there is any advantage to having it out there?

[TRUCK6018 50]

There reasoning is that there will be to much apparatus out on the parkway and there is no need to have a ladder on all it will do is be in the way.

They're right, it would be in the way. In the way of you and the idiots driving by that are too busy looking than to watch the road in front of them. That's a good in the way.

The set up for scene safety is great but...

Is that a police cycle between the ladder and the bus? That's not going to do a heck of a lot if someone plows into it except send it flying.

[Guest]

I like the ladder placement I have brought up bring our ladder out on to the parkways and have got nothing but resistance from my dept. There reasoning is that there will be to much apparatus out on the parkway and there is no need to have a ladder on all it will do is be in the way. I think it is an excellent idea and adds a lot more safety to the scene then just having 1 engine and a utility that is no bigger then the bus in the picture above. So my question to all of you is how many depts do actually bring a ladder out on the parkway for MVA's? and do you feel that there is any advantage to having it out there?

I think it would be a great Idea to have a ladder out there My department has a set of jaws of life tools on Its ladder but only gets called If the rescue Is OOS but again I think Its a good Idea.

[mfc2257 464]

Before this turnes into a giant ladder on the parkway vs. not conversation.... Consider this. Depending on what department this is, what you see on the parkway might be the assignement for a "rescue local" alarm. The truck probably carries the rescue equipment and the engine is there for suppression if needed. The heavy squad is probably not called unless the box is upgraded to serious entrapment or multiple vehicles.

So... There is a good chance that the ladder that is there isn't just there for blocking the scene, but rather because it's the first due "special service" unit to deal with the possible extrication of patients.

[NYMedic37 22]

The scene safety looks great. On the Tappan Zee we have the NYS Thruway Bridge Patrol and they do a great job with our scene safety. Unfortunately, on I-87 they scene safety is not as good. Usually just a State Trooper...that's it uless its a Jaws call.

[dillondotcom 16]

My department goes 1&1 for a car accident, unless it comes over as a pin. Then we send 2&2. The engine goes in first, and we usually have the ladder pull behind and block the lanes behind the engine.

[Oswegowind 17]

I have to agree, in Yonkers, this is the case. All of the Ladder companies, with the exclusion of L71, carry extrication equipment and are 1st due for extrication on all public roadways. The Rescue or Squad company are added to highway assignments or are special called as needed to roadways. I have seen some very safe scenes in Westchester, and some very unsafe. Each department has to recognize the need for scene safety and address within their own confinements. If the ladder cannot be used at the scene, then maybe it is best to leave it behind and teach proper positioning of the responding apparatus that are already being sent. An engine may be used to block traffic as well as provide suppression all by placing it correctly, no?

As for the motorcycles, it appears they are positioned appropriately. The lane is shut off by the engine in the rear. The motorcycle signifies that this is still our scene and this lane is not open to traffic. I am sure that the lights are sufficient as people are traveling slowly due to the "bottleneck" created by the fire engine placement at the rear. In other words, the motorcycle is a heavy duty traffic cone...lol

Safety vests are great. In fact the YPD Traffic division recently issued the bright green knee length rain jackets to increase visibility and safety. All units/departments should be doing proactive things such as this. Another great example are the sheppards seen on the rear of recently delivered fire apparatus. Stay safe, it should be everyone's #1 priority!

[lad12derff 283]

Lets all remember this only works when the cops play nice in the sandbox. We all know that it does not always happen and there has been great discussion on the board.

[Guest]

1 engine and 1 heavy rescue about the size of a ladder truck. Sometimes a utility, For us the rescue goes to the scene , Then 500FT. behind that the engine , then 200 ft. back the utility if it's needed per the chief. Both park at the same angle as in the pic to take out one or two laines if needed and the P.D assist with the bone heads on the road who only know how to go one way if the road is closed.

[DMM8240 2]

They're right, it would be in the way. In the way of you and the idiots driving by that are too busy looking than to watch the road in front of them. That's a good in the way.

The set up for scene safety is great but...

Is that a police cycle between the ladder and the bus? That's not going to do a heck of a lot if someone plows into it except send it flying.

I second that, those PD cycle's look a little too out there...

[DaRock98 76]

I think the police should have sent CARS to accident instead of motorcycles I think it would have made the scene a little safer. (not trying to be a quarterback just my opinion)

[Oswegowind 17]

But they use Motorcycles for Highway patrol all over...can't send cars if they ain't there...

[TRUCK6018 50]

I'm not saying the use of a motorcycle is bad as far as marking off the "work zone". Regardless if it is a motorcycle or car, the result could be a disaster. I'm sure most of us have seen the dash cams when a car gets rammed into at high speed. Yes?

Now lets change the picture to late night when the traffic is scarce. It would not be as far fetched for that motorcycle (or patrol car) turning into a projectile when rammed at high speeds.

[FirNaTine 370]

Absolutely the Truck should be sent whether your using equipment off of it or not. How about the additional manpower it brings, not just for mva's but car fires also. What are you going to send just an Engine Co. with 2,3 or 4 guys only. The problem is the PD most of the time not wanting to shut down the pkwy. like ladder12 stated. How come it's o.k. to send a Ladder Co. with an Eng. Co. for an mva or car fire on a roadway in town, but not on a similar incident on a parkway or thruway? Makes no sense.

[x635 4,066]

Police Motorcycles are used for a variety of reasons in highway patrol. They're easy to manuver through dense traffic, and hide easily for traffic enforcement, especially in residential and off-highway areas.

In this particular situation, the Quint handled the MVA with equipment and 6 FF's, and the Engine 4 FF's. They were in the process of placing a cone pattern, which was begun after I took the shot. There was also a DOT "Arrow Board" truck and "Accident ahead" sign down the road just out of the photo.

Here is a photo of the motorcycle being used. At this kind of scene, the primary use is a traffic cone, since it is well lit and helps to mark the scene. It doesn't provide protection, because it's a motorcycle, but it's placement aids in scene safety. The PO who does the report's MC is blocked off.

Motorcycles ARE NOT used during nightime or dawn hours, or in inclement weather. The officers have cruisers available as well. As you can see from the sky, they weren't needed today.

[INIT915 1,119]

Lets all remember this only works when the cops play nice in the sandbox. We all know that it does not always happen and there has been great discussion on the board.

Ah yes, this age old argument. If those donut eaters would just learn their place!

[Oswegowind 17]

Wow...you didn't take offense to that did you...lol

As I was saying earlier, the placement of the motorcycle is perfectly safe in this individual situation. There are 2 previous obstacles that traffic can see...the bike says...."you aren't past the accident just yet!"

And Seth, they are really not supposed to hide...technically I believe they are supposed to always be in plain sight, am I right INIT?

[DaRock98 76]

But they use Motorcycles for Highway patrol all over...can't send cars if they ain't there...

I understand that and I think they are great for patrol and now that you say the whole thing about heavy duty traffic cones I guess thats understandable but I'm would guess that they have other vehicles besides motorcycles.

[x635 4,066]

And Seth, they are really not supposed to hide...technically I believe they are supposed to always be in plain sight, am I right INIT?

Let's just say they are "less visible" then a patrol car doing radar. If you've traveled in Los Angeles, for example, you know these guys can be out of plain sight.

They are heavily used on the West Coast and southwest US for traffic enforcement, as to where the East Coast they're used mainly for special events and escorts.

[INIT915 1,119]

Let's just say they are "less visible" then a patrol car doing radar. If you've traveled in Los Angeles, for example, you know these guys can be out of plain sight.

They are heavily used on the West Coast and southwest US for traffic enforcement, as to where the East Coast they're used mainly for special events and escorts.

Your right. NYSP does not use MC's for ANY patrol functions. Only special details. Of the roughly 114 line of duty deaths in the 91 year history of the SP, more than 50% are a result of MC accidents. Due to that fact, they were eliminated from any traditional patrol function years ago.

[Guest emtb23]

Getting back to the scene safety aspect of this, here's a question: if you were responding in that ambulance and you beat all of the other apparatus to the scene, where would you park and what would you do? Let's assume there's slow moving traffic with a lot of rubber necking, as is usually the case. That highway looks like it could be a stretch of the Sprain or Saw Mill or many other places in Westchester.

[helicopper 1,050]

Lets all remember this only works when the cops play nice in the sandbox. We all know that it does not always happen and there has been great discussion on the board.

Yup, it's always the cops that don't play nice. Firefighters have never had attitude problems and their egos are removed in probie school so they've never initiated conflicts with other agencies or even their own. [/sarcasm]

Had you said "when everyone plays nice in the sandbox" you would have had my total agreement! Can't we all just get along???

As for the motorcycles, they're a police vehicle - sometimes they're going to be what's assigned to the job. As for their placement, they were probably on the scene prior to the FD and had been spaced to provide as much warning and traffic direction as possible. No, they're not providing "scene safety" but they are indicating the lane closures and the appropriate flow of traffic. Ideally, they're also slowing everyone down. Let's not forget that plenty of people have been hurt at scenes with apparatus blocking lanes so never, never, ever let your guard down because the big red truck is there. The drunks and morons are still going to find ways of hititng us!

Who says we can't "hide" when doing traffic enforcement? That was always one of the perks!

And as long as we're pointing out all these things about this picture how about noting that there are only TWO pieces of apparatus (not six), no POV's, and NOBODY (not even the dreaded cops) are stopped on the opposing side of the highway! Must be nice to work in Texas!

[Tanker 10eng 140]

hmmmmmmm, here in Croton we try to use the Tanker for rear traffic blocker, angledout and away from the accident ... allot of weight and its big and defensive.... the picture is nice, but " in my own opinion " I would like to see the ladder out further over the white dotted line, at least the same distance if not more the the engine...

as the traffic is pushed away from the accident, people will tend to look left and drift in the direction they are looking, by having the ladder back, they are allowing vehicles to get closer so see more, an once they are past they ladder the EMS rig, with rear enter is open and exposed..

maybe even have the bus between the two FD units and the ladder in the second lane, thus boxing off the whole area, and allowing for the bus room to get out..

vests are nice, but where are the guys in turn out gear ?

[DaRock98 76]

vests are nice, but where are the guys in turn out gear ?

I like the vests as well. Is turn out gear really needed at all MVAs? Personally in my opinion on hott summer days and a MVA not requiring extrication I don't feel a turn out COAT is really needed. I think they should still be wearing boots, bunker pants and helmets a long with the vests but to me the coats aren't necessary. Sorry don't mean to take the thread off topic but I just thought I would throw it out there.

[ny10570 745]

How about back the engine up a few feet and move the second bike into the Left lane. Its a minor MVA, apparently no extrication required and a nice wide shoulder to operate in. Is the second lane really necessary?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Ladder or no Ladder you still need to ensure that the scene is made safe regardless of what is sent. Use a good blocking technique, road cones and flares and at night light up the scene! and reduce some of the emergency lighting.

If I arrive in an ambulance first....I'm still going to block the scene and depending on the layout and where the equipment is angle it so my partner and I can get to it safely. By the time you do an assessment and get them packaged you should have more substantial equipment there to help block the scene and the bus. Again...3 of 4 medium sized road cones and a couple flares believe it or not go a long way in helping to get traffic to pay attention a little more and start to get them to move over prior to having to come up on your vehicle.

[TimesUp 148]

I usually don't take incident photos unless I come upon them, which I did during my travels recently. Although I only got this one shot of this incident, I think it's a neat one that demonstrates proper apparatus placement at an highway scene.

Also notice all personel in traffic vests.

The Engine and truck are protecting the scene but they are not positioned as to protect the firefighters as they dismount on the passenger side. They'll be stepping off in to a real danger zone. If a firefighter try's to walk around the front of the engine he'll be stepping into traffic. Going around the back is a big no no. Maybe there is not a riding position on that side or maybe the firefighters are only there to protect the scene and choose to stay in the safety of the rig.

Look at how the rear of the engine is away from the traffic where its safe and the cab where the firefighters get out is right near the passing traffic.

Edited June 5, 2008 by ltrob

[ny10570 745]

ltrob, since the majority of your equipment is in the back wouldn't you want to keep it out of traffic? Worst case half your crew has to step out in traffic twice if you're cab towards traffic. Always thought that was better than digging through compartments pulling potentially heavy equipment off into traffic.

[mfkap 0]

The Engine and truck are protecting the scene but they are not positioned as to protect the firefighters as they dismount on the passenger side. They'll be stepping off in to a real danger zone.

Just a practical question... how can you position a piece of apparatus in a roadway so neither side is exposed to traffic? And really the engine is blocking for the ladder, so it is just people dismounting the passenger side of the engine that are stepping into traffic, and assuming an open cabin, it would just be the officer... so if safety is so important I guess we can keep the officer inside the engine... might make the whole scene safer doing that anyway