Relocating to another Firehouse Lights or NO lights?

[TR54 239]

Many Depts have followed the procedure of not using an "EMERGENCY response mode" when simply relocating to another Firehouse on M/A STAND BY.

If the apparatus is called to the scene of the Working Fire or a new incident within the district ,, then the Light and Sirens come on.

Whats the feeling on the "mode of response" for going to sit in another firehouse?

BE SAFE Enjoy

[tbendick 27]

If you ask me I say no-lights. However NYC has units respond with lights and sirens to the relocations. If you hit and kill someone what have you done? I was in a rush to go and sit in a firehouse just incase. Then on the other hand what if there as a fire with people trapped and had you relocated to the area with lights and sirens you could have been in a postion to do something?

[WAS967 97]

Thats a mighty big what if. How often does it happen? Rarely...tho in NYC, it's more common than up here. If you are relocating to cover a district, there is NO REASON to use lights and sirens. Thats like me using lights and sirens to go do a football game standby. What if someone goes down before the game starts? Then they call to report the condition and then do what everyone esle does.....wait.

[DOC22 1]

I agree NO lights and sirens while enroute to cover another district. If they get a call prior to arrival then use them. But not just enroute to cover.

[mfc2257 464]

No lights no sirens on transfer assignments.... There is no emergency at the location that you are going to... Just another bay, couch and TV. If a job comes in while enroute to your transfer... You are now an emergency vehicle responding to a percieved danger and thus lights and sirens are warrented.

HOWEVER... I do encourage my guys to get fully dressed on the way to the transfer b/c many times you are called to the scene of the original incident and never complete the transfer assignment.

I also remind eveyone to bring their wallet, shoes and coat incase we're there for a while and need to eat.

[RWC130 594]

Good topic!

Relocations / Stand-By's are NOT Emergencies!

You should respond NO LIGHTS / NO SIREN!

"Normal Driving Mode"

This is for FIRE and EMS Emergency Vehicles.

NOTE: Lights and Siren CAN be used for Santa Claus! LOL =D>

[Guest skibum]

Our policy is No lights, No siren on relocations to cover another house.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

In order to operate as an emergency vehicle and use the exemptions stated in NYS V & T law concerning emergency response, you must be responding to a TRUE EMERGENCY. A CO call with no symptoms doesn't fit that bill, along with about 30 or so other calls I could name. So do you think that a mutual aid stand by would fit that bill?

[DMA327 12]

NO LIGHTS...NO SIRENS

[cas2383 22]

In regards to nyc, they also have tremendous ammounts of traffic to deal with perhaps where the need arises from them using their lights and sirens. Personally unless responding to a call, no lights or sirens.

[Stiles 0]

als....is that fact or just your personal opinion on types of emergencies?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The statement concerning the True emergency is fact. Its clearly stated in the law. What can be deemed a non emergency call is somewhat obvious and as I do in my classes drum up debate.

[SteveOFD 176]

True emergency is one of the topics discussed in the EVOC course.

Respond with caution means a non-emergency response, which means since there is no emergency there will be no lights and siren.

In New York State the V&T Law states that only Police can respond with no lights and siren to emergencies.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

3 principles that govern emergency vehicle operators:

1. Drivers are subject to all traffic laws unless a specific exemption is granted.

2. Exemptions only apply when the vehicle is responding to a true emergency.

3. Driver can be found criminally or civilly liable if involved in an accident, even if they are operating under the provisions of an exemption.

TRUE EMERGENCY: A situation which there is a high probabilty of death or serious injury to an individual(s) or significant property loss and actions by the emergency vehicle driver may reduce the seriousness of the situations. (Wanna go through what we respond to?)

Section 1104-Emergency Vehicle Operation: When involved in an emergency operation may exercise privileges set forth in this section of the V&T law, subject to conditions: Yada yada yada..talks about red signals, maximum speed so not to endanger life or property, stop, stand or park irrespective of, disregard movement or turning etc.;

Except for police vehicles the exemption is herein granted shall only apply when audible signals are sounded, by bell, horn, siren, etc. (note it doesn't say all of them at once) as may be reasonably necessary (note it doesn't say if your lights are on your siren has to be on) and when at least one red light is displayed and visible.

Lets not forget that NFPA1500 is more stringant when detailing vehicle response, it states you come to a complete stop at all red lights, stop signs, and also school buses.

[Guest Truckie 1075]

NYS V&T Law states .. NO LIGHTS, NO SIren.. it's not an emergency, why would you drive in emergency mode? Unless you are responding to a known or possible emegency, no lights.. and 10-20... also means no lights , no sirens.. you are only putting yourself out on the line by using them.. for any who haven't taken the "EVOC" course, i highly recomend it.. a lot of things guys do and tell you around the firehouse can be misleading.. take the course and find out what the real laws are.. it will be a real wake up call.. it was for me..

[DMA327 12]

10-20 Doesn't nessecarily mean no lights no sirens...could also mean proceed with caution

[Guest alsfirefighter]

DMA what are you talking about?

Don't you always proceed with caution? So how does 10-20 tell you that? Does that mean you drive reckless until a "10-20" is transmitted then you proceed with caution? Is causing other people to get in rebound accidents going through intersections "proceeding with caution" after a 10-20 is called. You are no longer responding to an emergency then.

This is exactly why the 10-20 needs to be removed from the 10 code list or leave it explained as "according to department SOG."

http://emtbravo.just5buckshosting.com/phpB...opic.php?t=2548

[Guest DADAY]

Sounds a lot like the chicken came before the egg. People need to respond to certain situations in certain manners. 10-20 in some places may allow to turn off lights. In a more city atmosphere, sometime lights are still needed to get though the traffic. to clear up the job and to make the dept alvailable for another job.

[afd65 4]

when any westchester units responded to mv sta 3 last night u r saying not to respond with lights but once they r sent to the scene even if they r still responding to the sta 3 they should but there lights and seirns on and go to the scene?

[Pudge3311 5]

afd65,

yup, thats what should be happening. Your going to cover, so there is no need to rush there. If you are sent to the scene, or to another call wherever you are going to cover, the lights then go on, you are responding to an emergency.

Its just like taking the rig out for a sunday drive. You can put the lights on and take your sunday drive, claiming that eventually there will be a call to go on, when all your doing is joyriding. If you go out for that drive without the lights on, and you get a run, then you put the lights on. Its the same thing.

[afd65 4]

thanks pudge

[Lucifer 6]

NYS Law states that we may use lights and sirens while responding to the scene of an emergency situation. You will be hard pressed to convince the jury that is looking at the blown up photo of the little girl that was creamed while you were "responding" to another firehouse that your actions were justified...

[E64PCFD2044 1]

but responding to another firehouse to just sit around and wait for a call is no emergency, therefore no lights and no sirens...obey all traffic laws and signals...this happened to us today when we relocated to Purchase.

[RES20CUE 40]

I whole-heartedly agree with NO Lights and Sirens for Back-fills.

There is absolutly no emergency that you are responding to.

I just heard Tower Ladder __ acknowledge 60 that they were re-locating to Chappaqua for the Thornwood Fire, and all you heard was the Q in the background. Where is the Emergency??????????

[Guest]

when will they learn!!! When it is too late. Take a course.... NO LIGHTS AND NO SIREN!!!!! [-X [-X [-X [-X ](*,) ](*,) NO KIDDING

[JBE 328]

I'm looking at this from two different views. Example: Say I'm with Lake Carmel and we get relocated to Carmel, it's pretty much a straight run down Route 52, and will take no more than ten minutes, regardless of time of day. This is a situation where there really isn't a need to use lights or sirens.

View numbah too:Lake Carmel gets relocated out to Brewster or Put Lake. That's kind of a haul regardless of traffic considerations/time of day. You also want to get there quickly and safely so if something pops up during the course of the incident that caused you to get relocated, you can be on the road and responding almost immediately. This is a situation where I would pop the lights, and maybe the siren to get thru some of those more congested intersections.

Is there a need to have your chauffer/mpo driving like they're rolling in first due to the mutha of all jobs?? Of course not, But, you want to get to where you're going in as expedient an amount of time as possible.

To sum up, I think it depends on how far you're going and how long it'll take you to get there, taking traffic conditions and the possibility you'll be needed either at the scene later or for something else during the course of a relocation. And as always drive safely and smartly.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

JBE: Good reasoning but I have to one disagree with you and two distance doesn't make any difference, nor does it make it a true emergency. You can always upgrade at anytime and there is no inbetween or lesser degree of emergency response. So if I get rear ended at an intersection I'm stopped at because an apparatus is requesting the right of way to go to a standby because its a bit of a drive? Is that fair to anyone the rebound accidents that we cause? It is the IC's problem if he has to call a distant unit and should take into account that when needed additional alarms and if you are coming from a distance, I doubt at that point its a life safety issue but usually water supply or support of exterior and/or master stream operations. There isn't any emergence in that. Unless its a conflagration and even then exposures take priority.

I had a bit of discussion yesterday in fact on an ems call about this. I advised the driver that we were ready to go and we pulled off, I could hear the strobe packs still on and reminded him I didn't want an emergency transport. He stated "I just was going to leave them on to get out onto rte. #" There is no inbetween. This is a 4 lane road, we approached at a controlled intersection. Sooner or later we would have gotten the light and onto the roadway. If we got into a accident, or caused one, it would be our fault. The patient was ALS, but there are very few true emergencies we deal with on the street that warrant full lights and sirens. And believe it or not, I do not like utilizing them even for cardiac arrest.

Risk vs. benefit. #2 leading cause of deaths of firefighters every year. Countless injuries to not just us, but the public we are suppose to be protecting.

[RES20CUE 40]

I'm with ALS- Somers relocated to Montrose during this past year, for multiple structure fires. It was over a 35 minute "response" both the Engine and Chief relocated with NO lights and sirens, per our SOG's.

No emergency occurred while we were enroute, we arrived safely, no accidents, no incidents. All was well.

That's the way it should be!! Sometimes we are our own worst enemies- Chief Officers need to look at themselves in the mirror and see what you would look like sitting in the "chair" in the court room trying to explain why you have a policy that allows this. The Chief is ultimately responsible for everything that happens. Think about it!!!

[firemn23 8]

Ardsley is no lights no sirens

[xchief2x 79]

Our department policy for close to 20 years has been No visual or audible warnings shall be used when relocating to standby.