Great forcible entry idea

[IzzyEng4 427]

I came across this yesterday on the www.nassaufdrant.com main page.

Using a carpenter's metal square to gain entry by cutting through a outside door equipped with a panic bar (no outside handles or key locks). I have heard of this method before but never actually tried it. With many of us having come across doors such as this (ie casinos, movie theaters, indoor arenas, ect.) this would be a good method to know if Murphy and his law shows up.

Nassau FD Rant

[firemoose827 324]

I came across this yesterday on the www.nassaufdrant.com main page.

Using a carpenter's metal square to gain entry by cutting through a outside door equipped with a panic bar (no outside handles or key locks). I have heard of this method before but never actually tried it. With many of us having come across doors such as this (ie casinos, movie theaters, indoor arenas, ect.) this would be a good method to know if Murphy and his law shows up.

www.nassaufdrant.com

The link doesnt work brother, could you fix that please?

Here is another technique for panic bar doors...

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Brothers, I think these ideas are certainly options but why not just force the door conventionally. Often times especially in commercial establishments the panic hardware is not the only locking device. Many times there are other types of locks engaged. So using these techniques may expose the panic bar, but you are still left to deal with other locks. With solid technique going conventionally is the way to go in my opinion.

Good Topic

Stay Safe

Paul D

[M' Ave 1,466]

Yeah, not bad ideas at all, but I have to agree with what was said above. The rear entrance of a commercial occupancy or an exterior stairwell entrance may have more locking devices. Even if all it has is that panic bar, a lot of the time you can get the adz end into the jam and crush the door back enough to dislodge the *typically* small latch on a panic bar.

Good thoughts though, I'd think that saw and square would be the fastest.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Not a bad tool to have the toolbox. Just as mentioned don't forget the basics of conventional forcible entry. I also believe you can find that technique at vententersearch.com

[CPAGE 2]

I've seen that on that board as well. This was the first time I have heard of this but I do like it and will be trying at a drill this week.

CPage

[ny10570 745]

Or instead of carrying around a carpenters square for that one application drive the fork end of the halligan through the door above the panic bar. You can then lever it down onto the panic bar.

[CPAGE 2]

Or instead of carrying around a carpenters square for that one application drive the fork end of the halligan through the door above the panic bar. You can then lever it down onto the panic bar.

It is not so easy to drive the fork through the door. But I was just playing around with a training door and I just tried a Boston rake and that works very well. I do agree that the square can be a bit of a pain for just 1 use. But try the Boston Rake I like it.

Chris

[16fire5 693]

I think what he's getting at is get the fork in between the door and the jam and spread it open. Then you can hit the panic bar with what ever including your hand. Worked for me once and the door was heavily warped from forcing. Also remember when you run into these types of doors there are a couple ways they will be locked when the space is not occupied. Top and bottom are common and don't discount a chain running through the panic hardware. If two doors lock to each other and the space is open forcing the door near the panic hardware will probably not do the trick as you will have to force the locks at the top of the door.

[jack10562 414]

One thing to keep in mind when using a power saw to cut steel doors: SPARKS...

It might not be a bad idea to take a combustible gas reading at the seams around the door before cutting, you don't want to be the one to introduce an ignition source to a potentially flammable (explosive) gas mixture which might exist behind that door.

a saw incident involving a LODD:

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?s=&s...st&p=130044

[antiquefirelt 994]

One thing to keep in mind when using a power saw to cut steel doors: SPARKS...

It might not be a bad idea to take a combustible gas reading at the seams around the door before cutting, you don't want to be the one to introduce an ignition source to a potentially flammable (explosive) gas mixture which might exist behind that door.

a saw incident involving a LODD:

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?s=&s...st&p=130044

I hear what you're saying, but I don't think it's too realistic in practice. Maybe depending on the scenario that has you forcing the door. I have yet to hear of any FD that takes a CGI to the door for FE.

Personally I like the framing square or paint roller (another smaller tool) on panic hardware for alarm investigations. Rather than damage the door or wait for an RP we often practice our B&E techniques. Our guys pull hinge pins, shove knives, cut down milk jugs, coat hangers, whatever we can think of. If there is any elevated level of suspicion that there's a true emergency within, we go for conventional methods which end up cost the building owner more money. Next time you're waiting for the RP, let the guys try and get in "sneaky style", my crew usually has a race to see who can gain access fastest with no damage.

As ALS noted, look at vententersearch.com they have some great ideas worth trying.

[robert benz 344]

It works but is it reality? how many guys are going to carry a framing square around the building with them, if i have the saw running anyway why not cut a hole big enough to open the door the second you start cutting the door is garbage, and if you are worried about fire well what are you going to do when you open the door with the square?

[Guest]

I had the same thoughts when I read about this technique on vententersearch.com

Think about it, you carry enough tools with you already, and just about every tool is multi-versal.

Now you want me to carry a framing square too?

[IzzyEng4 427]

I think a lot of people are missing the point here. This is a quick option to consider when trying to open this type of a door. Also too on these types of doors (remind you there is no hardware on the outside portion) you may or may not be able to use a halligan deepening on how the door if framed. As for watching the video showing the point end of the halligan going through, that too depends on the construction of the door it self. Also that is more time consuming and realistically not a fast process. So is trying to try an pry a door open from the frame with a halligan. By using the fork end through the door, yes it does work but with these new fire rated doors that are coming out, the process takes too long because of the thickness of the door.

Since I work at Foxwoods, we have a lot of these style security doors leading to the outside egresses. If you get an egress full of people and you need to pop a door quick from the outside and don't have time, this is a good option to have in your bag of tricks.

Think outside of the box, forcible entry is becoming a lost art form in the fire service in my opinion. We are too quick to smash and knock everything down and out in the fire service. Realistically this does less damage than trying to go an pop it from the frame and is a quick alternative. There is a time a place for everything, safety being key. And of course "TRY BEFORE YOU PRY" is the most important thing.

As for the comment about carrying around a framing square, is the person that is performing the forcible entry going to really carry it into the build - NO. I would leave it in the door. Why? What if the door closes because it wasn't properly secured open and someone from the outside needs to get in again?

I'm from the school where if you buy or make a tool and use it once, its worth is waht you paid for. You can never have too many tools or tricks in your bag.

[robert benz 344]

I think a lot of people are missing the point here. This is a quick option to consider when trying to open this type of a door. Also too on these types of doors (remind you there is no hardware on the outside portion) you may or may not be able to use a halligan deepening on how the door if framed. As for watching the video showing the point end of the halligan going through, that too depends on the construction of the door it self. Also that is more time consuming and realistically not a fast process. So is trying to try an pry a door open from the frame with a halligan. By using the fork end through the door, yes it does work but with these new fire rated doors that are coming out, the process takes too long because of the thickness of the door.

Since I work at Foxwoods, we have a lot of these style security doors leading to the outside egresses. If you get an egress full of people and you need to pop a door quick from the outside and don't have time, this is a good option to have in your bag of tricks.

Think outside of the box, forcible entry is becoming a lost art form in the fire service in my opinion. We are too quick to smash and knock everything down and out in the fire service. Realistically this does less damage than trying to go an pop it from the frame and is a quick alternative. There is a time a place for everything, safety being key. And of course "TRY BEFORE YOU PRY" is the most important thing.

As for the comment about carrying around a framing square, is the person that is performing the forcible entry going to really carry it into the build - NO. I would leave it in the door. Why? What if the door closes because it wasn't properly secured open and someone from the outside needs to get in again?

I'm from the school where if you buy or make a tool and use it once, its worth is waht you paid for. You can never have too many tools or tricks in your bag.

I agree it is an option, so are a million other ways, but you talk about less damage you have to put a saw thru a door to make this work that is enough damage to replace the door in my world, as for using the framing square as a door chock, will that work sure, so will a refrigerator but i am not carring that into the building either. Thats what chocks are for and there are plenty of options with those too.

I am glad firefighters keep trying to come up with better ways, but if you have to use a saw you are past the passive entry part of life,

I just dont see it as "a GREAT new way"

truck 1 on scene officer has tic, lite, irons

jump seat has can, hook, lite

driver shows up with saw, lite and oh sh*t i forgot the damn square i will be right

[Bnechis 3,961]

you may or may not be able to use a halligan deepening on how the door if framed. As for watching the video showing the point end of the halligan going through, that too depends on the construction of the door it self. Also that is more time consuming and realistically not a fast process. So is trying to try an pry a door open from the frame with a halligan.

If you can't use a halligan, then your dept. bought the wrong kind. There are a lot of designs out there if the fork end is fat, its useless. Look at which type is used by depts that do lots of F.E.

If its not a fast process, then you need to d o a lot more training. When Capt. Morris (FDNY R1 Commander) 1st started showing the techniques his truck company was using, it was hard to believe that they were forcingdoors faster with a good set of irons than any other tools, including a rabit tool.

If you get an egress full of people and you need to pop a door quick from the outside and don't have time, this is a good option to have in your bag of tricks.

So you are willing to plunge a saw into a door that you do not know if it may have people up against it? Wait if they are up against it and the panic hardware didn't work, then the framming square wont either.....lets go back to prying.

Think outside of the box, forcible entry is becoming a lost art form in the fire service in my opinion. We are too quick to smash and knock everything down and out in the fire service. Realistically this does less damage than trying to go an pop it from the frame and is a quick alternative.

Its not a lost art...most ff's never learned it in the 1st place. Most were shown a video and maybe got to pry 1 door.

It may do less damage, but it still totals the door, particularly if it is a fire rated door. And again speed is based on training. If I have to also get the saw (plus start it) and the square that also takes time

As for the comment about carrying around a framing square, is the person that is performing the forcible entry going to really carry it into the build - NO. I would leave it in the door. Why? What if the door closes because it wasn't properly secured open and someone from the outside needs to get in again?

If you force into the stairwell of many buildings, the doors to each floor may also be locked, so you must bring it. Also leaving the square is not an issue, the $1,500+ saw is. Themembers already have 50 pounds of s***, now add the saw while they are searching.

I'm from the school where if you buy or make a tool and use it once, its worth is waht you paid for. You can never have too many tools or tricks in your bag.

You can never have too many tricks...you can have too many tools. Particularly if you do not train enough with the basics.

[Bnechis 3,961]

as for using the framing square as a door chock, will that work sure, so will a refrigerator but i am not carring that into the building either.

Bobby...in a highrise you can't leave the refrigerator as a door chock, the members needs it as part of the rehab sector on the floor below....

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Izzy,

With sound technique and a little training and practice I think you will find that forcing this door conventionally is the quickest and most reliable way to go. I can tell you from experience that an outward opening door with simple panic hardware can be forced by 1 firefighter in about 30 seconds. The carpenter square is a good idea for investigation purposes, but at a fire I would revert to the Irons. As I stated earlier, what if the door has more than just a panic bar. What do you do then? How is a door unforcible depending on the frame? As was stated earlier, forcible entry is not becoming a lost art, the use of the Irons is becoming a lost art because guys are relying more heavily on the rabbit tool and power saws. I will say it again and again, with proper training, good technique, and a little practice these doors can be easily forced. I am all for alernatives, innovations, and thinking outside the box, but I firmly believe that we need to have a solid foundation in the most reliable means of entry that is conventional forcible entry.

Good Topic, Stay Safe Comments Please!

[FirNaTine 370]

I agree it is an option, so are a million other ways, but you talk about less damage you have to put a saw thru a door to make this work that is enough damage to replace the door in my world, as for using the framing square as a door chock, will that work sure, so will a refrigerator but i am not carring that into the building either. Thats what chocks are for and there are plenty of options with those too.

I am glad firefighters keep trying to come up with better ways, but if you have to use a saw you are past the passive entry part of life,

I just dont see it as "a GREAT new way"

truck 1 on scene officer has tic, lite, irons

jump seat has can, hook, lite

driver shows up with saw, lite and oh sh*t i forgot the damn square i will be right

Hey Capt., the Officers on your Ladder Cos. carry a set of irons? Never heard of that, just maybe a small Officer's Tool. How many guys on your Truck Cos. anyway? Why doesn't the Chauffer carry the Irons? Just wondering how you guys operate. P.S. I not only carry a framing square in my helmet for sliding under a door to check for victims on the other side, but also a boomerang, for 2nd floor ventilation.

Edited May 22, 2008 by FirNaTine