Greenburgh Sanitation Rollover Incident 5-6-08

[Oswegowind 17]

Date: 5-5-05

Time: 1150hrs (Approx)

Location: Sprain Rd. @ Old Sprain Rd.

Frequency:

Units Operating: Greenville FD C-2151 (I/C) Engine 150, L-4, R-29, Hartsdale Engine 170, Greenburgh PD EMS, Greenburgh PD Tech Rescue, Greenburgh PD, Greenburgh DPW w/ GDPW Wrecker and other GDPW equipment for vehicle recovery.

Description Of Incident: Mack Granite Sanitation Truck w/ Leach hydraulic Packer body overturned on a sharp curve. Three sanitation workers transported with injuries. Difficult Vehicle recovery performed by Greenburgh DPW. Truck was loaded with garbage and on it's way to the transfer facility when the accident occured. Nearby stream in area, also hilly terrain where truck came to rest.

Writer: x635

This wasn't the same truck the you featured on here in photos is it, cause wasn't that like Brand spanking new?

Ouch!

Reason for edit: Added x635's photo! Hope its the right one....

[Oswegowind 17]

Google Map Link to area of incident!

Were they exiting their HQ for their daily work....cause isn't that what is at the end of Old Sprain Rd.?

[CM36 4]

Did the truck fully rollover and where the truck was whose district was it I thought that was ardsley district

[FirNaTine 370]

Was mutual aid really necessary for this incident? Why were so many FD agencies there for a truck that just had to be uprighted? It sounded more like a wrecker operation then a technical rescue. Were apparatus from White Plains and New Rochelle really needed to standby in Greenville's quarters? Just wondering.

Edited May 7, 2008 by FirNaTine

[tjd1012 5]

I agree 2 engines a truck and a rescue, plus a tech rescue team for a truck on its side? Were the guys trapped? Seems like alot for nothing.

[oilflame 0]

Does anyone have any pictures of the truck or how it happened?

[TL2L31 8]

Sounds like it was a standard 10 wheel rear packer garbage truck not the boom truck pictured.

[x635 4,066]

I wish all three Town Of Greenburgh Sanitation workers the best for a speedy and full recovery.

It was one of these type trucks, although I'm unsure if it was an R-Model Mack or Mack Granite chasis. Truck 25, as pictured above, is used to collect bulk materials, especially brush and other debris after storms, as well as assist the Arbor Unit of GDPW.

It happened on a very sharp curve, that banks toward the outside of the road. I'm not going to speculate on how it happened. My guess is they were heading to the Yonkers transfer station across I-87 from Stew Leonards to empty their refuse, or coming from their depot, which is a few hundred feet down the road (when you're going northbound or southbound on the Sprain, between the "high bridge", AKA Heatherdell Rd, and Jackson Ave, that DPW Yard is Greenburgh DPW.

As far as the units that responded, I don't know the scope of the incident, but I know that the truck was on a hill where it could have easily slid down into a house. Also, there's a nearby stream/wetland area (Sprain Brook) and small pond that any fluids would have immediately drained towards.

Additionally, this incident occured where corners of three fire districts meet (Hartsdale, Ardsley, Greenville) exactly where the truck landed. EMS is Greenburgh PD and Greenburgh PD for EMS.

I hadn't heard they had stripped other communties of their fire protection to handle this incident. In my opinon only based solely on the pieces of information I have, there were more then enough resources there to handle both the incident and maintain coverage of all the respective districts without utilitzing the M/A system. But, that's life in Westchester, especially in slower departments.

Can someone from Hartsdale, Greenville, or GPD Tech Rescue elaborate on this incident?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Was mutual aid really necessary for this incident? Why were so many FD agencies there for a truck that just had to be uprighted? It sounded more like a wrecker operation then a technical rescue. Were apparatus from White Plains and New Rochelle really needed to standby in Greenville's quarters? Just wondering.

We were told that Hartsdale and Fairview were operating at another incident, so that why the extra MA

[FirNaTine 370]

We were told that Hartsdale and Fairview were operating at another incident, so that why the extra MA

What about Yonkers FD, Scarsdale FD or Ardsley FD? Aren't they closer? How long were you guys tied up anyway Bnechis on m/a for an mva?

Edited May 8, 2008 by FirNaTine

[helicopper 1,050]

i agree 2 engines a truck and a rescue,plus a tech rescue team for a truck on its side? Were the guys trapped? Seems like alot for nothing

Isn't it a good opportunity for on-the-job training? Couldn't it be considered an exercise of the resources?

Happily we have very few real technical rescue jobs so practice during a non-life threatening event seems to make sense.

Why make it a big deal?

[FirNaTine 370]

Isn't it a good opportunity for on-the-job training? Couldn't it be considered an exercise of the resources?

Happily we have very few real technical rescue jobs so practice during a non-life threatening event seems to make sense.

Why make it a big deal?

You're right. There's nothing wrong with training so long as you don't do it at another Depts. expense. Why strip another municipality of its Fire Protection so your Dept. could practice its skills? Do it on your own time. I'd be pretty pissed off if I needed my Fire Dept's. Services and the 1st due companie(s), were unnecessarily out of town on m/a.

[HFD23 37]

Hartsdale sent E-169 and car 2172,

E-170 was operating at a brush fire...

FFD couldnt relocate a engine for what ever reason to hartsdale as HFD did call backs and fully staffed our spare engine...

so scardsale relocated E-54 to hartsdale station 2 for a short while.

so with HFD FFD and SFD un able to relocate to GFD next step on the run card is WPFD NRFD or EFD.... thus why so far away...

[HFD23 37]

side note the truck was up righted by glens towing with 2 wreckers...

not DPW as the Ia says..

[Monty 35]

You're right. There's nothing wrong with training so long as you don't do it at another Depts. expense. Why strip another municipality of its Fire Protection so your Dept. could practice its skills? Do it on your own time. I'd be pretty pissed off if I needed my Fire Dept's. Services and the 1st due companie(s), were unnecessarily out of town on m/a.

You can what if any of the stuff on here. How often does it happen? And what's the downside if it does happen? What if I have two multi-alarm fires in my district at the same time? Well it might happen - probably not very likely for most districts, so I need more trucks. You have to balance and compromise all the time.

From what I noticed on the IA's, there were no other incidents of any significance that these trucks would have been at if they weren't here. Probably the same for 100 (if not more) of these kinds of MA calls. I'm sure someone with the statistics could put all sorts of odds against different scenarios.

[Guest]

How fast was the truck going ? Hope they all turned out ok. I drive a sanitation truck for a munincapality to. God bless them.

[FirNaTine 370]

You can what if any of the stuff on here. How often does it happen? And what's the downside if it does happen? What if I have two multi-alarm fires in my district at the same time? Well it might happen - probably not very likely for most districts, so I need more trucks. You have to balance and compromise all the time.

From what I noticed on the IA's, there were no other incidents of any significance that these trucks would have been at if they weren't here. Probably the same for 100 (if not more) of these kinds of MA calls. I'm sure someone with the statistics could put all sorts of odds against different scenarios.

So since nothing happened that required these units within their own juristiction it's o.k. then. Since when has it become acceptable within the Fire Service to gamble with peoples lives and property, especially those paying astronomical taxes for Emergency Services. Why do so many Depts. roll the dice and pray for the best. What do we tell the homeowners who are paying our salaries or who helped pay for our million dollar new station or new apparatus, that we didn't think they would need us because nothing usually happens when we leave town. Not for nothing but unless it's absolutely necessary, I don't think we in the Fire Service should be balancing and compromising with the Safety of those we took an oath to protect and who provide the funds to allow us to operate with their best interest in mind.

[Monty 35]

So since nothing happened that required these units within their own juristiction it's o.k. then. Since when has it become acceptable within the Fire Service to gamble with peoples lives and property, especially those paying astronomical taxes for Emergency Services. Why do so many Depts. roll the dice and pray for the best. What do we tell the homeowners who are paying our salaries or who helped pay for our million dollar new station or new apparatus, that we didn't think they would need us because nothing usually happens when we leave town. Not for nothing but unless it's absolutely necessary, I don't think we in the Fire Service should be balancing and compromising with the Safety of those we took an oath to protect and who provide the funds to allow us to operate with their best interest in mind.

You have to do it. There is no way to eliminate all risks. You have to balance and manage risks. Why not make everyone have sprinklers, automatic alarms, Fire Engine & Truck on every street corner. Even if it could be done, you're not going to eliminate every fire, every death. At some point, your return on investment goes down and in the end the general public will vote with their feet and go elsewhere - if they don't put someone in who changes the situation before it goes too far. Educating the public will let them decide and accept the appropriate coverage - but it has to be balanced with the likelihood of an emergency as well as what will happen if they do have one. Think of lightweight construction do they know how quickly they'll burn - probably not. But they may well know how much cheaper it is to build one. Maybe if they knew how quickly they burn they might want a sprinkler system. Or a firehouse on the same block (I would imagine in the long run a sprinkler system is much cheaper though).

Without being able to acknowledge & understand the other side of the argument, you're not going to get very far.

[FirNaTine 370]

You have to do it. There is no way to eliminate all risks. You have to balance and manage risks. Why not make everyone have sprinklers, automatic alarms, Fire Engine & Truck on every street corner. Even if it could be done, you're not going to eliminate every fire, every death. At some point, your return on investment goes down and in the end the general public will vote with their feet and go elsewhere - if they don't put someone in who changes the situation before it goes too far. Educating the public will let them decide and accept the appropriate coverage - but it has to be balanced with the likelihood of an emergency as well as what will happen if they do have one. Think of lightweight construction do they know how quickly they'll burn - probably not. But they may well know how much cheaper it is to build one. Maybe if they knew how quickly they burn they might want a sprinkler system. Or a firehouse on the same block (I would imagine in the long run a sprinkler system is much cheaper though).

Without being able to acknowledge & understand the other side of the argument, you're not going to get very far.

Ah, WHAT! Everyone knows you can't eliminate all risks, every fire and every death, but you can sure reduce their chances from occuring and one way to do that is by not sending companies out of town for unnecessary mutual aid. If it's needed fine, it's justifiable, but if it really isn't necessary, why play Russian Roulette with the lives and the property of those who are counting on you to show up when they need you the most. This goes for both Career and Volunteer Depts..

[Bnechis 3,961]

Since when has it become acceptable within the Fire Service to gamble with peoples lives and property, especially those paying astronomical taxes for Emergency Services.

Since the 1800's its done everyday in every dept. Very few pay "Astronomical for ES".....they pay that for schools.

Why do so many Depts. roll the dice and pray for the best.

Good question, and how many of them do it not just with MA, but with equipment, manpower or lack or it, training, planning, etc.

A safe bet is almost every dept.

What do we tell the homeowners who are paying our salaries or who helped pay for our million dollar new station or new apparatus, that we didn't think they would need us because nothing usually happens when we leave town.

Nope you tell them that unless they are willing to pay for everything you need to protect them without MA, then this is the cost of doing buz.

Not for nothing but unless it's absolutely necessary, I don't think we in the Fire Service should be balancing and compromising with the Safety of those we took an oath to protect and who provide the funds to allow us to operate with their best interest in mind.

So if your members (this is geared toward all FD's not anyone in particular) swore to protect the lives and property of the community, do they perform fire inspections on all commercial and multi dwellings annually, thats been proven to save more lives than most fire responses, What about EMS? 1st response to medical emergencies will save more lives than fire response ever will.

[x635 4,066]

With all the resources in Greenburgh, especially the duplication of resources, there's no need to strip other understaffed fire districts of their protection. Don't you think White Plains has enough to worry about with their exploding daytime population and buildings and not having enough staffing to handle the new load, such a 40 story buildings.

Also, I can see bordering towns, but making New Rochelle come all the way to Greenburgh? Why don't we just re-name New Rochelle FD "Bail-Out FD", since they seem to be, next to Yonkers, the only other properly staffed department in the County that other agencies abuse.

As far as a callback for Hartsdale to fully staff their spare engine, that's a several thousand dollar expenditure right there. What was Hartsdale's TL-15 doing during all this? Doesn't Hartsdale have volunteers to fill out the staffing?

The area where the truck flipped is a notorious "border war" zone. I'm sure all FD's showed up and thought it was their district, when in reality, I'm sure that Greenville FD in conjunction with GPD and GDPW could have handled the incident themselves, letting the other agencies handle their busy agendas.

If Westchester is going to continue to utilize the M/A sytstem and callback system for what should be routine incidents, then we should just combine all departments, since we obviously can't function without one another.

And, I guess no one has ever heard of the concept "available at the scene".

[Bnechis 3,961]

Don't you think White Plains has enough to worry about with their exploding daytime population and buildings and not having enough staffing to handle the new load, such a 40 story buildings.

I've never witnessed "exploding" people. Yes they've added a few new buildings, they also have a bunch of lage corp parks that were loaded in the 70's - 90's but no more. Last I looked there daytime population had gone down.

Also, I can see bordering towns, but making New Rochelle come all the way to Greenburgh? Why don't we just re-name New Rochelle FD "Bail-Out FD", since they seem to be, next to Yonkers, the only other properly staffed department in the County that other agencies abuse.

"All the Way" one forgets how the size of NR. NRFD E-25 drove less than 4.5 miles to get to GFD HQ. Thats only a 1/2 mile more than from Fairviews HQ.

How are you determining "properly staffed" ?

As far as a callback for Hartsdale to fully staff their spare engine, that's a several thousand dollar expenditure right there. What was Hartsdale's TL-15 doing during all this? Doesn't Hartsdale have volunteers to fill out the staffing?

If they needed to call back, sounds like you've answered your own question, they didnt get vol. to fill it out.

If Westchester is going to continue to utilize the M/A sytstem and callback system for what should be routine incidents, then we should just combine all departments, since we obviously can't function without one another.

Bingo

And, I guess no one has ever heard of the concept "available at the scene".

Clearly the IC felt this was not an option, or he would have done it.

[HFD23 37]

TL-15 was in quarters with E-170 when 170 cleared the brush fire.. And SFD E-54 till callback personnel arrived 5 minutes after being called and staffed 171 and E-54 was released.

No volunteers showed up.. And volunteers don’t count as staffing they supplement the career force they are a bonus if we get any on the signal 9.. No offense intended..

2 units are not available on the scene when they have lines stretched and hydrants hooked..

All 3 did not show up rite away.. You had 3 people injured in the road way and at least 1 house in danger with limited personnel showing up...

Greenville was 1st they notified Hartsdale it was in Hartsdale (very close to the HFD-AFD line)... gpd responded as ems and with their tech rescue team.

Ardsley as far as I am told only showed up with a chief no apparatus.. (That is as I am told if that’s not true some one feel free to pm me)

i dont view a over turned garbage truck a top a hill threating rolling down that hill into atleast 1 or more structures with a load of fuel, and garbage and injured people your typical every day incident espically not in this area.

Alot of speculation going on here with little facts... and alot of jumping around hartsdale had no long term mutual aid didn't strip any one of people or apparatus.. help was requested due to no available engine companies as soon as they were back in quarters m/a was released..

Edited May 10, 2008 by HFD23

[x635 4,066]

Thanks for the details above. However, I stand by my point if we need to rely so heavily on one another for mutual aid, then we should all be one department. Additionally, if a combination department has volunteers that don't show up to incidents routinely, then why are the volunteers there? To justify not having to hire the proper amount of personel? Also, isn't relying on callback manpower another cheat for not having enough manpower....

I was not there, and I am looking at the incident objectively. . Victim's didn't need extrication, as per above. The house(s) in danger were checked and evacuated, therefore only a property threat there. Vehicle was stablized, and equipment to do such was available almost immediately from DPW right down the street. Lines were stretched, and hazmat scenarios were prepared for. What if these workers were actually trapped, AND there was a structure fire in Greenburgh? How many resources would that have taken up? And, since all Technical Rescue resources were tied up, was a technical rescue team called in to cover Greenburgh in addition to the suppresion resources that were relocated?

With the amount of resources the Town Of Greenburgh has, between all THREE career supposedly combination districts AND the very well equipped and trained Greenburgh PD Tech Rescue, I'm sorry but it's a shame that M/A was needed to cover and not enough manpower could be found. Fairview has a Hazmat AND Foam AND heavy rescue. Greenville has a USAR trailer and Tactical Support Unit. With the amount of taxes Greenburgh residents pay, incidents such as this should be self sufficient within the town. As pointed out above, with available Engine and Ladder companies, and M/A so close by AND callbacks, what's the rationale behind calling other departments, only to send them back a few minutes later. Was the dispatcher aware of his or her resources, who was available, where they were, how heavily they were commited, and when they would be freed? Oh, wait, there at least FIVE different agencies dispatching this incident.

BTW, properly staffed is an officer, apparatus operator, and 2 firefighters trained and competent to perform in the tasks the company will do.

Point is, we should use these incidents to justify proper staffing and resource alignment, and admit our staffing flaws when a high profile incident such as this comes up, and not try to cover it up or pretend like nothing's wrong. I'm sure a great job was done by all, but could it have been done more efficiently?

[Bnechis 3,961]

However, I stand by my point if we need to rely so heavily on one another for mutual aid, then we should all be one department.

AGREED

Additionally, if a combination department has volunteers that don't show up to incidents routinely, then why are the volunteers there? To justify not having to hire the proper amount of personel?

Exactly, there are a number of combo depts. that the career staff has been saying they have almost no active vol., but the dept, or commisioners or the municipality, says that they have plenty of staff..."look there are 300 vol on the list"

Also, isn't relying on callback manpower another cheat for not having enough manpower....

No. There is no way any dept can have enough staff to cover every incident and it would be cost prohibative. Even FDNY has its 500 series fleet that is intended to be staffed with call back in the event of a disaster.

And, since all Technical Rescue resources were tied up, was a technical rescue team called in to cover Greenburgh in addition to the suppresion resources that were relocated?

How many other Tech resources do you think there are and if you called them in, you would be stripping their communities, which you are advocating we dont do.

With the amount of resources the Town Of Greenburgh has, between all THREE career supposedly combination districts AND the very well equipped and trained Greenburgh PD Tech Rescue, I'm sorry but it's a shame that M/A was needed to cover and not enough manpower could be found. Fairview has a Hazmat AND Foam AND heavy rescue. Greenville has a USAR trailer and Tactical Support Unit.

HFD23 said they were called because All engines were unavailable for fire response. All of the resources you listed above do not answer the fact that there were no more engines in town.

BTW, properly staffed is an officer, apparatus operator, and 2 firefighters trained and competent to perform in the tasks the company will do.

Then you can only consider YFD to be properly staffed. Only 40% of our units meet this.

Point is, we should use these incidents to justify proper staffing and resource alignment, and admit our staffing flaws when a high profile incident such as this comes up, and not try to cover it up or pretend like nothing's wrong. I'm sure a great job was done by all, but could it have been done more efficiently?

Agreed, on the same note, this should be considered for any dept (or depts) should look at this. the majority of both combo and vol depts in this county need M/A for every fire. Something is wrong!

[x635 4,066]

No. There is no way any dept can have enough staff to cover every incident and it would be cost prohibative. Even FDNY has its 500 series fleet that is intended to be staffed with call back in the event of a disaster.

My point is mutual aid shouldn't be an everyday thing. This incident was far from a disaster. FDNY only does callback in a major emergency situation.

Many other cities and towns with similar or worse economics then Westchester handle these types of incidents (the sanitation truck rollover) every day by themselves.

If Westchester wants to depend on mutual aid for everything above a dumpster fire, then the least they can do right now is centralize dispatch to make more efficent use of resources and unify incident command. Getting a little more micro, there's no reason why the Town Of Greenburgh couldn't consolidate it's fire districts and allocate resources better. I bet if you gave the current Car 2151 (Chief D. Raftery) the title of Greenburgh FD Chief, things would be a lot different, and a lot better, in the town of Greenburgh.

After all,(unincorporated) Greenburgh has one PD,one EMS, and 3 career/combo FDs. Doesn't make sense to me. For example, both Fairview and Hartsdale have typically only an apparatus operator assigned to their Tower Ladders, and NO additional FF's or officers. Both also commit firefighters full time to dispatch. Now, if you transferred dispatch to 60 Control, sold Hartsdale's TL, and put the two FF's assigned to the desk, and the two apparatus operators on Fairview Ladder 1, now you have a fully staffed truck company that could cover the Town along w/ Ladder 4.

[FirNaTine 370]

So if your members (this is geared toward all FD's not anyone in particular) swore to protect the lives and property of the community, do they perform fire inspections on all commercial and multi dwellings annually, thats been proven to save more lives than most fire responses, What about EMS? 1st response to medical emergencies will save more lives than fire response ever will.

Doing inspections on commercial and multi dwellings annually saves more lives? Maybe if you work in a municipality that enforces the codes. If not it's a waste of time. I've gone to buildings a year later, whether it was for a Job or a Reinspection, and the same violations were there, so who's kidding who. Inspections for the most part are a waste of time and we all know it. EMS by FD is also a waste of manpower and equipment, unless absolutely necessary. The problem is FD gets dispatched on everything instead of the calls being triaged. Nothing like a Dispatcher asking if your in service to respond to a structure fire but your still tied up on a general illness call. What a Joke!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Doing inspections on commercial and multi dwellings annually saves more lives? Maybe if you work in a municipality that enforces the codes. If not it's a waste of time. I've gone to buildings a year later, whether it was for a Job or a Reinspection, and the same violations were there, so who's kidding who. Inspections for the most part are a waste of time and we all know it.

Maybe, the problem isn't the municipality not enforcing the code its the lack of commitment to doing anything other than repondinig to fire on the part of the local fire dept. A lot of communities fall under this (but its been changing). A number of years ago the NYS Dept. of State did an analysis of all communities in the state and found that the communities that strongly enforced the code since 1984 (when the NYS UFP&BC went into effect) had drimatically reduced there fires and those that didn't still had a high rate of fires. FD's need to prevent fires, not just respond to them.

The U.S. has the highest fire rates of any industrialized nation on the planet...why? Because the fire service for 100 yrs didnot belive in prevention. Go to Germany or France or England and they use up to 50% of there personnel to do fire prevention (they are available for fires in dept cars). The most agressive code & inspection program in the US is the Reedy Creek Fire Protection District (Disney), they inspect every restaurant daily and have never had a kitchen fire.....

EMS by FD is also a waste of manpower and equipment, unless absolutely necessary. The problem is FD gets dispatched on everything instead of the calls being triaged. Nothing like a Dispatcher asking if your in service to respond to a structure fire but your still tied up on a general illness call. What a Joke!

By that statement all calls except fires would also be a waste of manpower & equipment. Hell why bother with an FD at all....just have the mayor respond with a check book. then we would never waste anything. The fire will go out at some point.

We get triaged and actually do about 1,500 fewer EMS calls than the ambulance service does. If the PD did a better job of forwarding 911 calls to our dispatch we could cut that number even more. The same could be said for any other type of call, this thread talked about why M/A was needed during an MVA. What if a fire came in during an MVA? Maybe we should not respond to MVA's because they leave us with limited resources in the event of a fire. What about training? If we are out training, we may have a fire response.

Some firefighters do not believe it is important to provide service other than fire response, and while some "customer service" responses are a waste of time, the depts. that willingly respond to all types of requests, get better equipment, contracts due to the support of the community. Otherwise, the community believes in the old concept of the fireman sitting around playing cards on my dime and the will never support that, particularly when taxes are so high.

[ladder55 26]

wasnt this in ardsly's district?

[DaRock98 76]

Some firefighters do not believe it is important to provide service other than fire response, and while some "customer service" responses are a waste of time, the depts. that willingly respond to all types of requests, get better equipment, contracts due to the support of the community. Otherwise, the community believes in the old concept of the fireman sitting around playing cards on my dime and the will never support that, particularly when taxes are so high.

I agree even though it may be a waste of time and manpower the fire service also has to do a lot of P.R. Going out in to the community showing there faces to the people. Showing them that they are busy and doing there jobs and not just sitting around the firehouse so when we need money people will be more willing to give it up. We as a service know that it's a lot of hard work and dedication but we also need to let the people know as well.