Westchester Mutual Aid

[firepunk 3]

I have one Question. I know that it has been posted many times but it needs to be asked. Mt Vernon had another structure fire on May 3 and now they are calling White Plains? What happened to all of the other close departments. Did Mt Vernon burn all bridges and have to keep going further North for MA? What is going to happen when 1 one our brothers is going to get hurt or killed because we had to wait for MA from 30 min away. I know when i drive to white plains from the vern it takes a good 20 min up 22 or the bronx river. when is all the political BS going to end and the unions going to step in and say enough is a enough. regionalztion needs to happen to save our lives if this is the route we are going to take to get MA from miles away. What do you think????

[Remember585 815]

My guess is that they asked for the usual 2 Engines and Truck to cover them. Then the fire escalated and they had 1 & 1 come to the scene.

If my memory is any good, the Mutual Aid order would be this:

Engines: NRFD, Pelham, Greenville, Eastchester and White Plains or Fairview.

Ladders: NRFD, Eastchester, White Plains or Fairview then Yonkers.

Fairview's Ladder is OOS, and if Eastchester sent an Engine, chances are they didn't send a Truck too.

As for Engines, I am guessing either Greenville or Pelham didn't respond, so it went to White Plains next.

I wasn't working so I don't know for sure, but from what I heard on the radio at home and what I read in the Incident Alert, I think this is what happened. It doesn't seem like MV has burned any new bridges, it was just a failure to respond or because a unit was OOS that it made it all the way to White Plains.

[firepunk 3]

I understand that. i know the mutual aid system works. I also know you have to go down the list and also if units are OOS. What about Pelham Manor, Scarsdale, Hartsdale? All three departments have Tower Ladders. pelham manor borders the vern. Hartsdale and scarsdale are much closer than white Plains. all i am saying is that if someone gets hurt or killed, God Forbid, who does the ax fall on because a department 9 miles away came and another department is a quarter mile away? the chemical fire is a perfect example. they needed ladders for outside ops. and they did not call scarsdale tower ladder, pelham manors tower ladder or yonkers.

[firepunk 3]

i must say. i am shocked that no one has responded. Did some truth come out of this and is everyone thinking who would be liable in a court of law if someone does get hurt?? Like i said i am not trying to start any waves, but this is a matter of life or death and to many big shot leaders are playing russian rollette with our lives. enough is enough. At the next district meeting this should be discussed as it pertains to every union member.

[JustSomeGuy 0]

I think that a lot of unions unfortunately are aware of MV's crisis, but unfortunately are choosing not to go MA unless of course its absolutely needed. I know my local is against going MA to the vern. We are not adequately staffed ourselves, and now we have to leave our district unprotected, to help a district 20 min away. Also another problem for depts. in Westchester, is that they normally ride 2 or 3 on an engine, but then when a MA alarm tones out, we immediately put 4 or 5 guys on, So tax payers are protected by the bare minimum the rest of the time. Also where is MV's union? The subject being brought up here is informing to us, but maybe MV's local needs to involve the press, make the citizens aware that their fire protection is not adequate, possibly a county identity could solve this problem. We need reform, unfortunately they are trying to Banish the county government entirely. A lot of these districts like to hold onto their traditions and supreme rule. Why would a Chief want a new Boss over them? I wish "Bnechis"? best of luck with the consolidation study. I would love to be a part of the new county system if implemented, all though I think the unions and chiefs will tare it apart like a pack of wolves. Unfortunately in this day and age, people will complain but not act. Look at this war, gas tax, prior threads talk about rising costs in all aspects of our lives and what do we do... nothing... we complain on a website. MV's local needs to get out their with the support of their neighboring brotherhoods and make the public aware that now is the time for change.

[Guest Dept 10]

the lawyers will have all parties of involvement or acountabilitie on the bench garunteed but ultimatly the chief will be the one whos a** will be hanging in the wind for any wrong doing on his part.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I have one Question. I know that it has been posted many times but it needs to be asked. Mt Vernon had another structure fire on May 3 and now they are calling White Plains? What happened to all of the other close departments. Did Mt Vernon burn all bridges and have to keep going further North for MA? What is going to happen when 1 one our brothers is going to get hurt or killed because we had to wait for MA from 30 min away. I know when i drive to white plains from the vern it takes a good 20 min up 22 or the bronx river. when is all the political BS going to end and the unions going to step in and say enough is a enough. regionalztion needs to happen to save our lives if this is the route we are going to take to get MA from miles away. What do you think????

The problem is not who is or is not going MA. The problem is why does almost every department (career and vol) need to call multiple departments for MA every time they have a fire.

Is it that no one has enough personnel?

Is it that we are trying to cover more turf than we can handle?

What good is it to have 1 or 2 or even 3 firefighters per rig? Does it really matter if 2 engines show up with 2 on each or if you send only 1 with 4 ff's.

Why do we have more engines in westchester than FDNY?

Everyone thinks the answer is more manning (which it is) but are we actually going to get it?

The taxpayers want reduced taxes and do not care about the FD until they are dialling 911

The state wants to consolidate depts. (which is how most frie service outside the North east is done).

So the unions, the chiefs and even the vol. can complain all they want about needing more manning, unless you can do it for less than you spend today...its falling on deaf ears.

MA was intended to help in a disaster, not every time you have a call.

Consolidation would resolve this, because then every rig is properly staffed and the closest unit goes.

Can you imgine if FDNY had never consolidated? They did it because they did not have a system, just lots of independent units (sounds like the 58 Westchester depts.).

[Bnechis 3,961]

the chemical fire is a perfect example. they needed ladders for outside ops. and they did not call scarsdale tower ladder, pelham manors tower ladder or yonkers.

MV had a ladder pipe and TL in the front and NR L12 in the rear. What else was needed or could have fit (particularly since they were trying to keep the rigs uphill & upwind)?

[Bnechis 3,961]

i must say. i am shocked that no one has responded. Did some truth come out of this and is everyone thinking who would be liable in a court of law if someone does get hurt??

No one would be liable. There is no legal requirement ("duty to act") in terms of mutual aid. When you sign the MA plan it says you will attempt to assist. So in court you have no real responsability. And how much liability does a local FD have if it does not provide enough manpower? Under GML 207a you cant sue if you get hurt or killed. So the only liability is if a building owner (who didn't have insurance) believes you did not provide adequate protection, hard one to prove.

Like i said i am not trying to start any waves, but this is a matter of life or death and to many big shot leaders are playing russian rollette with our lives. enough is enough. At the next district meeting this should be discussed as it pertains to every union member.

Which big shot leaders are you refering to?

the politicians...Local, county, state, etc.?

the chiefs?

the union officials?

THe VFD organizations (that have lobbied against almost everything)

Yes it should be discused...But you either have a solution or you will be discusing this for the next 50 years.

[INIT915 1,119]

i must say. i am shocked that no one has responded. Did some truth come out of this and is everyone thinking who would be liable in a court of law if someone does get hurt?? Like i said i am not trying to start any waves, but this is a matter of life or death and to many big shot leaders are playing russian rollette with our lives. enough is enough. At the next district meeting this should be discussed as it pertains to every union member.

Or perhaps, few have responded cause you just posted this a few hours ago and only a limited number of people have even read it?

[ny10570 745]

Give it a day or two most people try and live a life on the weekends. Others sit inside on a beautiful Sunday and post on message boards.

A depts only motivation for providing mutual aid is to ensure they receive aid when they need it. Otherwise they have no obligation to assist. Why doesn't anyone reach out to NYC unless its a full blown conflagration? It seems to work well enough when due to address confusion FDNY and a Westchester dept get assigned to the same job.

[Remember585 815]

Give it a day or two most people try and live a life on the weekends. Others sit inside on a beautiful Sunday and post on message boards.

That, and the overall participation on this site is dwindling. Many people fear posting because they are tired of being criticized or dragged into a pissing contest.

Bottom line, Mutual Aid is a great resource that is being used by some (not all) far too often for incidents that should be handled with that department's own resources. Staffing on both sides of the fence is always going to be an issue. What surprises me most is that nobody sees what the real reason to all of this is.

Money.

Everything we do, everything we are a part of is all about money. Volunteer departments who can't get out every call within a reasonable amount of time will continue to do so until there is a lawsuit ($), or one of their own gets killed and the fines ($) prompt them to do something. Then there are the other volunteer departments that know they have a problem, but the communities / districts don't want to foot the bill to solve the problem.

Paid departments in the eyes of many municipalities are dog and pony shows. You show up in a matter of minutes, take care of the problem and go home. They don't care if there is 1, 2 or 5 of you on the rig, just as long as someone in a big red rig (or green for you silly folks) shows up and tells them everything is OK. The politicians aren't going to put money into you until they have no choice. If unions become vocal enough on a big enough scale that may help. If local politicos aren't doing anything, aim higher and sometimes the pressure from them can help.

And of course, the taxpayer is not too keen on spending anymore of their money on a fire department, because as long as they've been in that community they always seem to show up when they're called. When they drive by the firehouse, there's a few cars there anytime of day. (Bar crew in some FDs, not many). And they see those million dollar firehouse popping up all over the place, they see 1/2 million dollar rigs sitting outside stations not doing anything and say "s***, they don't do anything, so what the hell am I going to pay more for?"

I wish there was a way where everyone could come together with cool heads and hammer out a solution. And not a band-aid, but a realistic solution that will solve the FD and EMS issues that plague Westchester. I applaud the study to merge those of you in the Sound Shore, I hope it comes to fruition and solves your manpower issues. YOU DESERVE IT!

[hudson144 150]

In a nut shell- FDMV is a room and contents fire dept. With all of the laws and regs in place we have gotten away with it for years! I pray that the worse never happens but you know what, the odds are against us. Think about it- a 2nd alarm assignment- 2 more men to the scene. The fast team- an engine company with 2 men (another smoke screen). WE bust our A** day in and day out and no changes have taken place and i don't see any changes in the future. We can discuss this till were all blue in the face and it has been posted here before and nothing will change. It will not be solved here on Bravo- The senior Fire officials and the politicians are the one's to come up with a resolve. It should have been now for years but we are no different now that 20 years ago......

[ajsbear 11]

M/A up in the northern areas is sometimes for a different reason than southern Westchester. you guys inthe north should know that. If you have a fire in an area with no hydrants, you need at least 3 tankers. Exposures? You may need 2 or 3 ladders and no one has more that one really. Thats one set of reasons. Yes, manpower is another.

[FirNaTine 370]

In a nut shell- FDMV is a room and contents fire dept. With all of the laws and regs in place we have gotten away with it for years! I pray that the worse never happens but you know what, the odds are against us. Think about it- a 2nd alarm assignment- 2 more men to the scene. The fast team- an engine company with 2 men (another smoke screen). WE bust our A** day in and day out and no changes have taken place and i don't see any changes in the future. We can discuss this till were all blue in the face and it has been posted here before and nothing will change. It will not be solved here on Bravo- The senior Fire officials and the politicians are the one's to come up with a resolve. It should have been now for years but we are no different now that 20 years ago......

It was actually better 20 yrs. ago. The Vern had 3 trucks in service and if m/a was requested, it was 1&1 from Yonkers to Sta.3 and 1&1 from New Rochelle to Sta.1. Very rarely were any m/a companies dispatched to a scene, unless it was conflagration. Now because of City officials putting the Fire Service on the back burner and refusing to adequately fund the FD, we see a rise in m/a companies responding straight to the scene. Is it because of a lack of $$$$? It depends on who you talk to in City Hall. Some say yes, while others say no and that the monies are there. I know one thing for sure, and that's FDMV catches alot of work and there's plenty of guys, Chiefs included, pacing the floors to respond in, to play and get dirty every chance they get. So why would a municipality spend $$$$$$$ to properly staff and equip its FD, when they know help is only a phone call away, and believe me, they know! Hell, your getting it for free and it's not like it's on a daily basis. It's time for the FDMV Union to be like their Union of old, and start hitting the streets, news media and City Council and Budget Meetings to educate the citizens they protect of their plight and their uphill battle against City Hall. It worked for them in the past when they were threatening to shut down companies. We all know what happens to the squeeky wheel. Hell it worked for Yonkers FD. and look at them now.

Edited May 4, 2008 by FirNaTine

[EJS1810 7]

No department in Westchester, Putnam, Rockland, Nassau, Suffolk and all other counties in the tri-state area can compare to NYC in terms of size or manpower. They provide "mutual aid" to them selves (so to speak) with the multiple alarm assignments.

There are other "large" cities, Washington DC, for example that use Mutual Aid on a regular basis. Prince George's & Montgomery MD Counties regually are in DC on calls.

[20Truck 7]

Why do we have more engines in westchester than FDNY?

FYI -

Westchester has 197 Engine Companies and 67 Ladder Companies. FDNY has 236 Engine Companies and 145 Ladder Companies. Data does not count Squad Companies, Reserve Units, or Rescue Companies.

Good try though.

[Bnechis 3,961]

That, and the overall participation on this site is dwindling. Many people fear posting because they are tired of being criticized or dragged into a pissing contest.

And are tired of the fact that important issues get 10 posts and blue lights get 70. Also everytime the issue of paid vs. vollie, even if its not nasty there is the rapid threat from 1/2 a doz. censors.

Bottom line, Mutual Aid is a great resource that is being used by some (not all) far too often for incidents that should be handled with that department's own resources. Staffing on both sides of the fence is always going to be an issue. What surprises me most is that nobody sees what the real reason to all of this is. Money.

Most (not all) I can only think of about 1/2 doz (out of 58) that don't routinly call for MA for a working fire.

Money is a major part of it, but control is also. If you can't get the rigs out the door, but you can float a bond for a new tower ladder, its more about control. That does not mean that money is not a major issue.

Everything we do, everything we are a part of is all about money. Volunteer departments who can't get out every call within a reasonable amount of time will continue to do so until there is a lawsuit ($), or one of their own gets killed and the fines ($) prompt them to do something. Then there are the other volunteer departments that know they have a problem, but the communities / districts don't want to foot the bill to solve the problem.

VFD's will continue till the State laws change (as proposed). Lawsuits wont due it and the fines for killing a ff can be paid for with petty cash. While the communities may not want to pay, I have rarely heard any depts. complain publicly that they have a problem. The communities have very little knowledge of any issue with manning or response. The volunteers rarely mention it, many of the unions push it (and are considered to be only interested in increasing membership, by the community, politicians & sometimes the chiefs) And often the chiefs only push it behind closed doors, so the public does not know.

The politicians aren't going to put money into you until they have no choice. If unions become vocal enough on a big enough scale that may help. If local politicos aren't doing anything, aim higher and sometimes the pressure from them can help.

Aim Higher...like having the state change the rules of the game?

And of course, the taxpayer is not too keen on spending anymore of their money on a fire department, because as long as they've been in that community they always seem to show up when they're called. When they drive by the firehouse, there's a few cars there anytime of day. (Bar crew in some FDs, not many). And they see those million dollar firehouse popping up all over the place, they see 1/2 million dollar rigs sitting outside stations not doing anything and say "s***, they don't do anything, so what the hell am I going to pay more for?"

They don't know if we show up or not. They dont look to see cars at the FD, they see a red truck sitting inside and know that they are protected.

I wish there was a way where everyone could come together with cool heads and hammer out a solution. And not a band-aid, but a realistic solution that will solve the FD and EMS issues that plaque Westchester. I applaud the study to merge those of you in the Sound Shore, I hope it comes to fruition and solves your manpower issues. YOU DESERVE IT!

Thanks, hard to call it the sound shore, but I go the point

[Bnechis 3,961]

WE bust our A** day in and day out and no changes have taken place and i don't see any changes in the future.

Thats exactly why the career chiefs commissioned the study

We can discuss this till were all blue in the face and it has been posted here before and nothing will change. It will not be solved here on Bravo- The senior Fire officials and the politicians are the one's to come up with a resolve. It should have been now for years but we are no different now that 20 years ago......

If the chiefs propose a change will the unions back it?

The politicians will never go for it unless they see someone supporting it and it not costing them any $$$

[Bnechis 3,961]

M/A up in the northern areas is sometimes for a different reason than southern Westchester. you guys inthe north should know that. If you have a fire in an area with no hydrants, you need at least 3 tankers. Exposures? You may need 2 or 3 ladders and no one has more that one really. Thats one set of reasons. Yes, manpower is another.

The MA for manpower or another ladder are understandable, but, water supply issues need to be resolved. 12 years ago Colleton County So. Carolin had a patchwork of depts. like westchester with almost no hydrants. They all had an ISO rating of 9 (the equivilant of scoring a 10 on a 100 question open book test). They merged into 1 dept. and developed a STANDARDIZED program which included all new identical 3,000 gal tankers and engines and moved the county from ISO 9 to ISO 4 (within 5 miles of any fire house & without hydrants) Currently None of the areas in Westchester without hydrants are better than a 9 (thats 22 out of 58 depts, the last time I looked).

How did they pay for it? The ISO improvements saved every property owner 40% on their insurance. In this county thats worth many millions every year

[Bnechis 3,961]

It was actually better 20 yrs. ago. The Vern had 3 trucks in service and if m/a was requested, it was 1&1 from Yonkers to Sta.3 and 1&1 from New Rochelle to Sta.1. Very rarely were any m/a companies dispatched to a scene, unless it was conflagration. Now because of City officials putting the Fire Service on the back burner and refusing to adequately fund the FD, we see a rise in m/a companies responding straight to the scene.

Has the on duty manning dropped or did they just move members from the 3rd truck?

Hell, your getting it for free and it's not like it's on a daily basis.

We were there on friday and sat

[Bnechis 3,961]

FYI - Westchester has 197 Engine Companies and 67 Ladder Companies. FDNY has 236 Engine Companies and 145 Ladder Companies. Data does not count Squad Companies, Reserve Units, or Rescue Companies. Good try though.

Last time I had counted it, we had more.

Ok so FDNY has a few more.

Every engine is rolling with 5 or 6 and we have engines with 1 or 2 (or none)

197 engines for 975,000 is just under 1 engine for every 5,000 residence in Westchester.

While NY can protect 8+ million with 236 or 1 engine for every 34,000 residence.

And they have a lot more exposure issues, or the potential for multiple victims on the floor(s) above.

Based on that ratio, Westchester could get by with 29 engines (while I dont think that thats realistic, we clearly do not need 197).

NYC 303.3 sq. miles or an Engine for every 1.3 sq mile

Westchester 433 sq miles or an engine for every 2.2 miles Note: 67 sq miles is NYC resivoir

[FirNaTine 370]

Has the on duty manning dropped or did they just move members from the 3rd truck?

We were there on friday and sat

Prior to Friday and Saturday night, when were you there last? As far as I've been told by the guys over there, their on duty manning changes on a daily basis. There's days where they have enough personnel to put a 3rd truck in service but don't for whatever reason and then there's days where they're lucky they have enough personnel working to keep the 5 engines in service. Unfortunately, that's what happens when you don't have a minimum manning agreement with the City in your contract.

[firepunk 3]

No one would be liable. There is no legal requirement ("duty to act") in terms of mutual aid. When you sign the MA plan it says you will attempt to assist. So in court you have no real responsability. And how much liability does a local FD have if it does not provide enough manpower? Under GML 207a you cant sue if you get hurt or killed. So the only liability is if a building owner (who didn't have insurance) believes you did not provide adequate protection, hard one to prove.

Which big shot leaders are you refering to?

the politicians...Local, county, state, etc.?

the chiefs?

the union officials?

THe VFD organizations (that have lobbied against almost everything)

Yes it should be discused...But you either have a solution or you will be discusing this for the next 50 years.

So it is ok to by pass other departments that are ready willing and able. Do we bypass because of EGO'S?????

the big wigs are the Chiefs, Mayors, Supervisors of Towns and FD Comissioners.

As for the taxpayers complaining about the taxes. It has nothing to do with Police Fire or DPW. It is the school taxes. And I agree as a taxpayer. I do not like when the department where I live goes on MA because then I am unprotected or less protected. My tavs for FD is $600.00 a year for 4 engines 3 ladders staffed with 2 or three. If I add $200.00 more per year that would give me at least another man on each rig. i would not complain about that. i hope the consildation happens fast because one of us will get hurt!!!!!!!

Edited May 5, 2008 by firepunk

[hudson144 150]

Barry- the career chiefs commissioned the study- i applaud that, the Department that should be pressing some buttons is the one that needs the help the most. A few years back there was talk about having an independant review board come in to review the FD similiar to what NYS civil service recently did on the mount vernon civil service commission , this audit produced a 30 page document on the deficient ways that the civil service conducted business when it came to hiring,testing etc. Maybe this would shed some light on the situation. To many times in the past "Chiefs hands are tied" and nothing can be done! The study I am sure is great, the question is what is the next step after the study? If I am not mistaken mutual aid went into MV 38 times last year!

Edited May 5, 2008 by hudson144

[JohnnyOV 2]

Last time I had counted it, we had more.

Ok so FDNY has a few more.

Every engine is rolling with 5 or 6 and we have engines with 1 or 2 (or none)

197 engines for 975,000 is just under 1 engine for every 5,000 residence in Westchester.

While NY can protect 8+ million with 236 or 1 engine for every 34,000 residence.

And they have a lot more exposure issues, or the potential for multiple victims on the floor(s) above.

Based on that ratio, Westchester could get by with 29 engines (while I dont think that thats realistic, we clearly do not need 197).

NYC 303.3 sq. miles or an Engine for every 1.3 sq mile

Westchester 433 sq miles or an engine for every 2.2 miles Note: 67 sq miles is NYC resivoir

the engine to people ratio has nothing to do with why departments have specific rigs or the number of rigs they do. If we really want to get into it, like we have 1000x in the past, consolidation of departments would be the best way to go.

But the truth of the matter is, who's to say we don't need 197 engines? Backfilling of departments after mutual aid is called for lack of manpower...lets be serious, its there, on a tuesday morning at 10am you're lucky to comparably get a minimally staffed career rig, with the number of volunteers around....multiple calls in districts, and if we want to get back to the original question, not to call for mutual aid, and fight the fire in house, are all reasons that departments buy and obtain the rigs that they do.

If it was up to me, we would have a county department, excluding the major cities, who would operate on 1 radio system (include the major cities here) with an engine, or an engine ladder house, or a rescue house throughout the county. It works like a charm in most other areas around the country...why can we not do it here?

[Bnechis 3,961]

So it is ok to by pass other departments that are ready willing and able. Do we bypass because of EGO'S?????

Define able. Its ok to pass them if they "can't do the job"....and its easy to define that.

the big wigs are the Chiefs, Mayors, Supervisors of Towns and FD Comissioners.

The chiefs have no liability if they can show they've requested additional manning and were denied it.

It never gets to the mayor....

Supervisors have no legal standing, thus the court would drop them.

Commissioners may be the best to go after

As for the taxpayers complaining about the taxes. It has nothing to do with Police Fire or DPW. It is the school taxes. And I agree as a taxpayer.

I agree, but most people don't differentiate between where the tax goes, they just want lower taxes.

I do not like when the department where I live goes on MA because then I am unprotected or less protected. My tavs for FD is $600.00 a year for 4 engines 3 ladders staffed with 2 or three. If I add $200.00 more per year that would give me at least another man on each rig. i would not complain about that. i hope the consildation happens fast because one of us will get hurt!!!!!!!

even adding 1 more man per...is substandard. I hope so too.

Note: I pay 1/2 of that for 5 engines / 3 ladders with staffing of 3 or 4......the larger the population covered the cheaper it costs per taxpayer.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Barry- the career chiefs commissioned the study- i applaud that, the Department that should be pressing some buttons is the one that needs the help the most.

Agreed but history teaches us that they will not.

A few years back there was talk about having an independant review board come in to review the FD similiar to what NYS civil service recently did on the mount vernon civil service commission , this audit produced a 30 page document on the deficient ways that the civil service conducted business when it came to hiring,testing etc. Maybe this would shed some light on the situation.

That would help, but I dont think it will change much. NYS does that for Police Depts. they did one about 15 years ago on 3 depts in Westchester, and not one thing has changed. If it does not have an authority behind it to change, nothing will.

To many times in the past "Chiefs hands are tied" and nothing can be done! The study I am sure is great, the question is what is the next step after the study? If I am not mistaken mutual aid went into MV 38 times last year!

Agreed. The next step will be presenting it to the politicians, the media, and other concerned groups to convince the communities that this will improve services without increasing costs.

We where there 28 of those times.

[FirNaTine 370]

We where there 28 of those times.

And who's fault is that? How many times was Yonkers FD there?

[robert benz 344]

And who's fault is that? How many times was Yonkers FD there?

it is not a question of "Fault", you are assigned to go you go and by the same token whenever we ask for M/A from MVFD they send it, no matter what their manning is.

Is it right?