N.Y. recommends changes to fire system

[Beekman 5]

Up in Dutchess I'll agree with Doc that turning things over to the County is not a good thing. A certain FD was looking to purchase fuel from the Town and County. It took a week to get the approvals and the keys from the Town. It's been 2 1/2 years and still counting for the County. Way too much red tape and politics. I love DCDER and DCSO but forget the rest of the County departments. They can care less about anyone but themselves.

[SteveOFD 176]

Here is a link to The Journal News Opinion piece by Milton Hoffman, retired senior editor of The Journal News. The piece is in regards to the Commision report, but focuses on the Education aspect of the report.

[firecapt32 282]

Tarrytown and elmsford are municiple fire departments, incorporated villages. They are contracted to provide fire protection to unincorportatred parts of the Town of Greenburgh. the unincorporated sections of Greenburgh do not have Fire Commissioners, at least that I am aware of. They are set by the Town of Greenburgh. I believe that Ardsly, Hastings, Irvington also share in the unincorporated Town of Greenbburgh fire protection areas.

Edited May 7, 2008 by DOC22

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Wow, seeing it all laid out and broken down like that just makes it seem more lucrative. I sincerely hope this bill passes.

yes and I can see it eliminating some paid positions as well, if alll those towns combine manpower, stations, apparatus ect....the small paid crews in some of those depts. can be eliminated in favor of an all volunteer system, pooling the combined manpower of all those depts. into less stations and less rigs to man. Big $ savings there.

Edited May 7, 2008 by Ladder47

[Bnechis 3,961]

yes and I can see it eliminating some paid positions as well, if alll those towns combine manpower, stations, apparatus ect....the small paid crews in some of those depts. can be eliminated in favor of an all volunteer system, pooling the combined manpower of all those depts. into less stations and less rigs to man. Big $ savings there.

While less crews will be needed, most depts are so undermanned now that it is very unlikely. In Westchester, particularly daytime it is not uncommon to hear multiple pages to get all volunteer units on the road, its not likely they will be going in that direction. Even the report cited the loss of 15,000 volunteers in the last 20 years. What they are not counting is how many of the current volunteer ranks are over 65 y/o. With fewer young people becoming and/or remaining as volunteers (often due to economics), and the numbers of Sr. Citizen members, I predict the the reduction in total volunteers will not only continue to slide, but the slide will accelarate. This is not an attack on VFD's, just a reality of economics and the changing generations.

[Raz 14]

yes and I can see it eliminating some paid positions as well, if alll those towns combine manpower, stations, apparatus ect....the small paid crews in some of those depts. can be eliminated in favor of an all volunteer system, pooling the combined manpower of all those depts. into less stations and less rigs to man. Big $ savings there.

I think one thing we haven't seen much of over the last few years has been the disbanding of paid departments and replacing them with volunteers. Besides, if I'm correctly understanding what you're describing, you're advocating covering the same population and square milage with less manpower.

[DaRock98 76]

I think one thing we haven't seen much of over the last few years has been the disbanding of paid departments and replacing them with volunteers. Besides, if I'm correctly understanding what you're describing, you're advocating covering the same population and square milage with less manpower.

Sad to say but I don't think you will ever see that again b/c the vollies just don't have the time to do it anymore. The only thing I see happening in the future is the disbanding of volunteers and replacing them with a paid staff.

[Raz 14]

Sad to say but I don't think you will ever see that again b/c the vollies just don't have the time to do it anymore. The only thing I see happening in the future is the disbanding of volunteers and replacing them with a paid staff.

I agree 100%, I was just trying to tiptoe around the same paid vs. vol debate.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I agree 100%, I was just trying to tiptoe around the same paid vs. vol debate.

Thats not a debate.

NYS OFPC reports that the number of volunteers has dropped by 15,000 in the last 20 years.

There was a time when everyone worked close to home and could be counted to respond.

There was a time when the sales staff in the hardware store or stationary store could respond, but Staples & Home Depot are not the same.

There was a time when depts only had 50 to 100 runs per year.

We recently looked at the annual report for 1927 (the last year we had vollies) and it showed they had 350 calls with 6 eng, 3 ladders. Last yr we did 9,000 calls with 1 less engine.

[gamewell45 258]

Sad to say but I don't think you will ever see that again b/c the vollies just don't have the time to do it anymore. The only thing I see happening in the future is the disbanding of volunteers and replacing them with a paid staff.

Once the taxpayers realize that a fully paid fire department will cost them the shirts off their backs, more of them might find the time to "volunteer". At best you might see a combination career/volunteer department.

Furthermore, there is a concept already in use in, Monroeville, Pa, which is a city i think of around 70,000- 100,000 daytime pop, that is all volunteer. The big difference between them and NY volunteers is that they have volunteers who "bunk in/live in" at 5 fire stations around the city. As far as i know, it is still an all-volunteer fire deparment.

It seems to work very well for them; perhaps someone should make some of the westchester departments aware of this system. From what i've been told it appears to work well.

Just food for thought.

[DaRock98 76]

Thats not a debate.

NYS OFPC reports that the number of volunteers has dropped by 15,000 in the last 20 years.

There was a time when everyone worked close to home and could be counted to respond.

There was a time when the sales staff in the hardware store or stationary store could respond, but Staples & Home Depot are not the same.

There was a time when depts only had 50 to 100 runs per year.

We recently looked at the annual report for 1927 (the last year we had vollies) and it showed they had 350 calls with 6 eng, 3 ladders. Last yr we did 9,000 calls with 1 less engine.

All of your points are very true. That alog with the cost of living going up and up i.e. taxes and gas and also the the amount of training time going up vollies have a very hard time gettig out to the fire house. I am firm believer in there is no such thing as to much training but the FF1 course nearly doubled in hours compared to what it used to be people just can't dedicate that much time anymore.

Once the taxpayers realize that a fully paid fire department will cost them the shirts off their backs, more of them might find the time to "volunteer". At best you might see a combination career/volunteer department.

Furthermore, there is a concept already in use in, Monroeville, Pa, which is a city i think of around 70,000- 100,000 daytime pop, that is all volunteer. The big difference between them and NY volunteers is that they have volunteers who "bunk in/live in" at 5 fire stations around the city. As far as i know, it is still an all-volunteer fire deparment.

It seems to work very well for them; perhaps someone should make some of the westchester departments aware of this system. From what i've been told it appears to work well.

Just food for thought.

I think that is a good idea but I also don't see that happening anytime soon either. The bottom lie is people are struggling now to make ends meat theres no way I see people spending days and nights at the firehouse with out being paid to do it. Unforunatly it all comes down to the money issue.

[YFD216 2]

Gamewell 45 the concept is good but I think if you investigate it more it is geared towards college students offering them a way to save some bucks. I'm not saying it won't work but if your not close to a college it may be difficult. They are not the first to do it a number of depatments have "live -ins".

[Bnechis 3,961]

Once the taxpayers realize that a fully paid fire department will cost them the shirts off their backs, more of them might find the time to "volunteer". At best you might see a combination career/volunteer department.

I've said it before (and wont go into detail) I pay less for my 100% career fire protection (about$300/yr) than many in Westchester pay for a VFD or Combo dept. and I have an ISO 2 (which reduces my insurance costs. Don't assume that because its volunteer it free or even cheap (it maybe, but maybe not).

Furthermore, there is a concept already in use in, Monroeville, Pa, which is a city i think of around 70,000- 100,000 daytime pop, that is all volunteer. The big difference between them and NY volunteers is that they have volunteers who "bunk in/live in" at 5 fire stations around the city. As far as i know, it is still an all-volunteer fire deparment.

Yes they have a big daytime population. But at night it drops to 29,000

Looks to me like there busiest rig has done 123 runs this year. Thats about the same number as our slowest unit. Our busy units do 5x that.

They also have more members per company than almost any VFD in Westchester (has in the whole dept.). & they have 5 companies. How many depts in Westchester have over 300 active members, and it looks like a majority are EMT's as well.

Now to date the dept has also handled over 1300 EMS calls....with....PAID STAFF. The paid staff are also FF's so daytime (& night?) they have paid crews staffing up to 8 ambulances (16 personnel?). THere is no mention on the bunking in program.

This is info I got from their site.

It seems to work very well for them; perhaps someone should make some of the westchester departments aware of this system. From what i've been told it appears to work well.

Looks like it works very well for them. Maybe the reason it does not work as well here is the housing market.

Monroeville, PA 15146 $198,500

4 BEDROOM, 2 BATHS, FORMAL DINING ROOM, EAT-IN KITCHEN, 2 YEAR WINDOWS, ROOF-3 YEARS, SLIDING DOOR OFF DINING ROOM TO LEVEL YARD, 24X14 SHED, WOOD BURNING FIREPLACE, DOUBLE ATTACHED GARAGE, HARDWOOD THROUGHOUT. 24 X 14 SHED.

If nice housing could cost that little here, many folks could afford to stop the 2nd job and volunteer.

Edited May 8, 2008 by Bnechis

[Doc 11]

I'd like to know how Dutchess County fire service consolidation will reduce my fire taxes. Right now the tax rate for Rombout FD is $0.43/M - looking at my tax bill... I payed $85.00 out of my $3200.00 property tax for fire protection. It's a lot like worrying about the splinter in my finger when I have a telephone pole sticking through my torso. Even if my fire protection was completely free I would see virtualy no difference.

[gamewell45 258]

I've said it before (and wont go into detail) I pay less for my 100% career fire protection (about$300/yr) than many in Westchester pay for a VFD or Combo dept. and I have an ISO 2 (which reduces my insurance costs. Don't assume that because its volunteer it free or even cheap (it maybe, but maybe not).

I'm paying around $130 per year with an all volunteer dept. The ISO i think is a 7-9, but doesn't make that much of a difference in insurance payments. If the town installed working hydrants and a fully career dept, then the rating would most likely go down, but i think the overall cost of contructing a water system (which would open up the town to unlimited development) and a career department (which handles maybe 400 fire/reset calls per year) would not be cost effective.

Yes they have a big daytime population. But at night it drops to 29,000

Looks to me like there busiest rig has done 123 runs this year. Thats about the same number as our slowest unit. Our busy units do 5x that.

They also have more members per company than almost any VFD in Westchester (has in the whole dept.). & they have 5 companies. How many depts in Westchester have over 300 active members, and it looks like a majority are EMT's as well.

Now to date the dept has also handled over 1300 EMS calls....with....PAID STAFF. The paid staff are also FF's so daytime (& night?) they have paid crews staffing up to 8 ambulances (16 personnel?). THere is no mention on the bunking in program.

This is info I got from their site.

The ambulance services in my town is fully paid; paid crews are not part of fire department, but rather a private company which the town has a contract with. Fire Department EMS volunteers supplement paid crews. This is for 600 plus runs per year.

Looks like it works very well for them. Maybe the reason it does not work as well here is the housing market.

Monroeville, PA 15146 $198,500

4 BEDROOM, 2 BATHS, FORMAL DINING ROOM, EAT-IN KITCHEN, 2 YEAR WINDOWS, ROOF-3 YEARS, SLIDING DOOR OFF DINING ROOM TO LEVEL YARD, 24X14 SHED, WOOD BURNING FIREPLACE, DOUBLE ATTACHED GARAGE, HARDWOOD THROUGHOUT. 24 X 14 SHED.

If nice housing could cost that little here, many folks could afford to stop the 2nd job and volunteer.

I dont' know what county you live in, but aside from the suburban counties, most NY housing is within most peoples salary ranges. Those who are fortunate enough to live in Counties such as Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, Orange and Dutchess counties are already screaming about the high cost of taxes (school, police, town, highway, fire, library, sewer, sanitation, etc). I honestly don't know how much sympathy you'd get from the average taxpayer if you start talking forming a fully career fire department. Saving a few hundred dollars per year on your insurance isn't going to impress too many if they ultimately end up paying more in fire taxes. Remember, the career firefighters have to be paid salary increases; overtime, benefits/retirement, vacation relief, training, fire house conversion, etc. It is not the bargain as one may believe it to be.

It would be nice if the taxpayers could afford the luxary of having a fully paid department in every town; but lets be realistic, paying a crew of fire fighters to sit in the fire house to respond to 300-400 fire calls per year is not feasible. Educating the public as to the value of volunteering and changing the way they do business will go along way to help keep taxes down and at the same time attract and retain the volunteer system.

[ny10570 745]

Gamewell, a one for one replacement of volunteer depts with paid depts is outrageously expensive and also incredibly inefficient. Going paid is feasible alternative because it also allows consolidation of depts requiring fewer resources and drawing from a larger tax base. Now you combine this with a system where paid firefighters only replace volunteers where the volunteers can not meet an established performance and staffing standard and you have a cost effective system that maximizes the benefit of volunteers and guarantees an effective level of protection.

[gamewell45 258]

Gamewell, a one for one replacement of volunteer depts with paid depts is outrageously expensive and also incredibly inefficient. Going paid is feasible alternative because it also allows consolidation of depts requiring fewer resources and drawing from a larger tax base. Now you combine this with a system where paid firefighters only replace volunteers where the volunteers can not meet an established performance and staffing standard and you have a cost effective system that maximizes the benefit of volunteers and guarantees an effective level of protection.

NY10570, reading your post makes sense and in theory i do agree with minor exceptions. I think if anything, creating a county fire department (thus eliminating all fire districts including those in municipalities) could be more feasible then replacing one on one. In a situation like this, the county could close those fire stations that are not needed; and mix the paid and volunteers and thus create opportunities for volunteers to serve in areas previously that were career only (such as Yonkers, New Rochelle, Mt. Vernon, etc). I agree that volunteers would have to meet established performance and training standards. Under a system like this, those who choose to volunteer can still render their services.

Obviously contractual issues with the fire unions representing career personnel would have to be worked out but that can be dealt with at the bargaining table.

This might be more palatable to the taxpayers of the county; tho' i think the politicians would have to prove that it is an economically feasible plan.

The total thrust of this is to provide the residents with an acceptable, economical level of fire protection at the same time protecting existing career personnel against job loss and allowing volunteers to continue their tradition of volunteering.

[JetPhoto 626]

Even if all the counties in NY went from individual to county wide, the course of action would take 10 - 15 years or more by the time you got done with all the litigation that would be involved.

[x648eng119 2]

I dont' know what county you live in, but aside from the suburban counties, most NY housing is within most peoples salary ranges. Those who are fortunate enough to live in Counties such as Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, Orange and Dutchess counties are already screaming about the high cost of taxes (school, police, town, highway, fire, library, sewer, sanitation, etc).

Funny you mention that.... Most of the members on this board are from that area.... And I'm sure many of the ones who aren't, left because they can't afford it!

Back to the issue at hand... The concept of combining departments to more efficently utilize resources... great idea, and I've been saying for the last 5 years how it could benefit the Town of Cortlandt/Village of Croton to do so. I'm not even going to throw Mohegan into the mix because that just adds a whole new level of complication, BUT....

Croton Has: 3 Engines, 1 Tanker, 1 Tower Ladder, 1 Heavy Rescue, 2 Ambulances, 1 Marine Unit (Spread out in 3 Stations)

Montrose Has: 3 Engines, 1 Tower Ladder, 1 Heavy Rescue, 1 Full Size Bus, 1 Utility (Pick-up), 1 Marine Unit

Buchanan Has: 2 Engines, 1 Utility (Air Truck), 1 Medium Rescue, 1 Full Size Bus

Verplanck Has: 3 Engines, 1 Tower Ladder (Bronto), 1 Medium Rescue, 1 Ambulance, 1 Full Size Bus, 1 Marine Unit

Cortlandt Vac Has: 3 Ambulances, 1 MCI Trailer

In Total: 11 Engines, 3 Tower Ladders, 1 Tanker, 4 Rescues, 3 Full Size Busses, 3 Marine Units, 2 Utilities (1 With Cascade), and 6 Ambulances.

Toss in the Montrose VA, and you add an additional Engine, Ambulance, Marine Unit, a Mini-attack, HAZ-MAT truck, and 15 career firefighters, all with Haz-Mat Tech, Confined Space Tech, and EMT!!!!!!

Thats in an area of about 30 square miles, running an estimated (generous) combined 850-950 fire runs a year.

Here's my wet dream....

The 2 Firehouses most centrally located are Montrose, and Croton Station 2 (E119/T10)

Pick A Firehouse.... Lets Go With Montrose Because It Works Better With This Plan...

Hire All The Montrose VA Firefighters (Yeah, I Know I'm Biased!!!) as "Town of Cortlandt Firefighters"

Run an Staffed Engine, Truck and an Ambulance or 2. Even Hire Seperate EMS or Contract, and Run 2 or 3 ALS units like New Rochelle.

The Truck Crew Could Staff A Rescue for Pin Jobs, collapses, etc. (Again, much like New Rochelle).

Don't Close Any of the Firehouses, Combine the Departments, and Create Seperate Companies for the current volunteers.

And now, since there is 24 hour carrer staffing on the outside, the VA would not need on site career staffing!!

I KNOW IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN... BUT I THINK IT WOULD WORK A HELL OF A LOT BETTER AND BE A HELL OF A LOT MORE EFFICENT THAN THE SYSTEM THAT IS IN PLACE NOW!!!!

Edited May 9, 2008 by x648eng119

[helicopper 1,050]

I dont' know what county you live in, but aside from the suburban counties, most NY housing is within most peoples salary ranges. Those who are fortunate enough to live in Counties such as Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, Orange and Dutchess counties are already screaming about the high cost of taxes (school, police, town, highway, fire, library, sewer, sanitation, etc). I honestly don't know how much sympathy you'd get from the average taxpayer if you start talking forming a fully career fire department. Saving a few hundred dollars per year on your insurance isn't going to impress too many if they ultimately end up paying more in fire taxes. Remember, the career firefighters have to be paid salary increases; overtime, benefits/retirement, vacation relief, training, fire house conversion, etc. It is not the bargain as one may believe it to be.

It would be nice if the taxpayers could afford the luxary of having a fully paid department in every town; but lets be realistic, paying a crew of fire fighters to sit in the fire house to respond to 300-400 fire calls per year is not feasible. Educating the public as to the value of volunteering and changing the way they do business will go along way to help keep taxes down and at the same time attract and retain the volunteer system.

I question your assertion that the housing market is within the reach of most people's salaries in New York State. The vast majority of people don't live and work in the same community, especially around any of the urban centers (NYC, Albany, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo) because of the high cost of living. The average commute is now about 37 minutes or so. Most people are moving further and further away in order to afford their home.

As for the savings of consolidation/regionalization your point is well taken - if you maintain 59 individual fire departments there will be no savings. HOWEVER, and this is the premise of the analysis and recommendations by the state, if you reduce the number to (and this is an arbitrary number for illustrating my point - not a recommendation from the report) fifteen fire departments in the county, you spread the costs over a much larger tax base and have a higher call volume. Instead of 1000 homes in the 1 square mile fire department/district, you now have 10,000 in a 10 mile district. If everyone has a 20% increase in their fire tax, from $300 per year to $360 per year, but the individual homeowner receives a discount on their insurance for the ISO change and saves $100, they are in fact still paying LESS for the change. It's about economies of scale and standardization. Instead of competing or ignoring neighboring departments, there could be standard apparatus configurations so you know where to find stuff no matter which truck you're on, everyone would have the same hose threads, communications will be simpler, relocations will not be "mutual aid", etc. etc. etc.

Nothing precludes a district/department from maintaining a volunteer element either. This could create a system like the ones in MD or VA where there are career stations and volunteer stations. The whole point is making sure that everyone receives a prompt response from qualified responders.

Even if all the counties in NY went from individual to county wide, the course of action would take 10 - 15 years or more by the time you got done with all the litigation that would be involved.

Sure if we all fight it and everyone sues everyone else challenging it but if a reasonable plan is presented and a timeframe to make the transition is developed it could happen in less than 15 years!

Despite that, there needs to be so much cooperation and so many agreements that I don't think it will happen any time soon especially since so many people would rather fiercely defend their turf and little empire than do something "for the greater good".

[helicopper 1,050]

Funny you mention that.... Most of the members on this board are from that area.... And I'm sure many of the ones who aren't, left because they can't afford it!

Back to the issue at hand... The concept of combining departments to more efficently utilize resources... great idea, and I've been saying for the last 5 years how it could benefit the Town of Cortlandt/Village of Croton to do so. I'm not even going to throw Mohegan into the mix because that just adds a whole new level of complication, BUT....

Croton Has: 3 Engines, 1 Tanker, 1 Tower Ladder, 1 Heavy Rescue, 2 Ambulances, 1 Marine Unit (Spread out in 3 Stations)

Montrose Has: 3 Engines, 1 Tower Ladder, 1 Heavy Rescue, 1 Full Size Bus, 1 Utility (Pick-up), 1 Marine Unit

Buchanan Has: 2 Engines, 1 Utility (Air Truck), 1 Medium Rescue, 1 Full Size Bus

Verplanck Has: 3 Engines, 1 Tower Ladder (Bronto), 1 Medium Rescue, 1 Ambulance, 1 Full Size Bus, 1 Marine Unit

Cortlandt Vac Has: 3 Ambulances, 1 MCI Trailer

In Total: 11 Engines, 3 Tower Ladders, 1 Tanker, 4 Rescues, 3 Full Size Busses, 3 Marine Units, 2 Utilities (1 With Cascade), and 6 Ambulances.

Toss in the Montrose VA, and you add an additional Engine, Ambulance, Marine Unit, a Mini-attack, HAZ-MAT truck, and 15 career firefighters, all with Haz-Mat Tech, Confined Space Tech, and EMT!!!!!!

Thats in an area of about 30 square miles, running an estimated (generous) combined 850-950 fire runs a year.

Here's my wet dream....

The 2 Firehouses most centrally located are Montrose, and Croton Station 2 (E119/T10)

Pick A Firehouse.... Lets Go With Montrose Because It Works Better With This Plan...

Hire All The Montrose VA Firefighters (Yeah, I Know I'm Biased!!!) as "Town of Cortlandt Firefighters"

Run an Staffed Engine, Truck and an Ambulance or 2. Even Hire Seperate EMS or Contract, and Run 2 or 3 ALS units like New Rochelle.

The Truck Crew Could Staff A Rescue for Pin Jobs, collapses, etc. (Again, much like New Rochelle).

Don't Close Any of the Firehouses, Combine the Departments, and Create Seperate Companies for the current volunteers.

And now, since there is 24 hour carrer staffing on the outside, the VA would not need on site career staffing!!

I KNOW IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN... BUT I THINK IT WOULD WORK A HELL OF A LOT BETTER AND BE A HELL OF A LOT MORE EFFICENT THAN THE SYSTEM THAT IS IN PLACE NOW!!!!

Great plan but the VA is a federal agency and you'll never see them rolled into a local program (no matter how much sense it makes). Apart from that it makes a lot of sense!

[Beekman 5]

Hey Chris192- Both VAFDs exist because there isn't a career department within the VA's criteria for response. The VA tried to get rid of Castle Point years back but City of Beacon couldn't meet the 4 man minimum for a responding crew (The VA does not recognize volunteers). Another issue was that CPFD sits in the middle of Chelsea.

Several VA Fire Departments have been shut down as the outside municpality was able to provide a 4 man career crew within the required response time to the facility. In those cases, the VA pays the municpality for fire protection.

[Doc 11]

Ok. Since x68eng119 opened the conversation up to some pie-in-the-sky, lets consider the other side of that coin. How it will work when politicians get involved...

I'm not picking on any specific departments, but since the T.o.Cordtland and V.o. Croton were mentioned...

The Cordtland / Croton Regional Fire Authority is formed. The Fire Advisory Board, appointed at the Town and Village Board's Pleasure consists of a couple former volunteer officers and a bunch of local business owners and lawyers who "know how to run businesses". In order to properly run a large Regional Fire Authority, the candidate search for Chief is conducted nationwide. Preference is given to local applicants, however a Mr. Whatsizface, a deputy chief with 18 years experience from the Middlanowhere, Georgia County Fire Department is hired at a salary commensurate to his experience and comparable to the greatest regional departments in the nation. He begins building his office staff by hiring friends from back home. His first project - to pick two fire houses.

After months of protests from the local communities, lawsuits by politicians and former fire district officers, and a News 4 exposee with "baby mommas" (who don't even live in the area) crying about their babies burning to death "cuz' dey closed da fiahhouse", two stations are chosen! After a two million dollar blue ribbon study involving a few strategically appointed (but poorly qualified) committee members the stations chosen are Montrose and Verplanck because they "offer a key blend of strategic resource features of great community value"(?) - according to the report which is completed two years after the fact. Since nobody buys old fire houses, especially ones filled with asbestos and lead, the new department must maintain and heat the old ones until, ultimately, all except Buchanan's old station are given away to not-for-profits. Buchanan's old staton becomes the new department headquarters facility after a multi-million dollar bonded rennovation where the bays have been sealed up and turned into offices for the purchasing and payroll departments for the Cordtland / Croton Region Fire Authority which now employs 35 non-uniform personnel who are paid in accordance with other regional fire authorities throughout the nation and neccessary to operate an "agency of this size".

A completely different set of paid firefighters is hired from civil service, many of whom bear an uncanny likeness in face and name to certain town and county officials. The VA at Montrose, seeing that the community how has 24 hour career fire protection, closes the VA fire department, relocating a couple of their firefighters to Castle Point, but offering the others jobs in the maintenance department. The Authority hits financial trouble after the bunchanan firehouse renovation goes over budget. The money that was earmarked to be allocated to build a facility to maintain the Authority's apparatus is diverted to the bunchanan renovation. The apparatus facility is finally built using apparatus maintenace funds and the money saved by foregoing hiring actual mechanics to staff it. instead, all the old apparatus from the now defunct departments is stored in the building.

A late night water line break (due to not heating the building) destroys many of the old rigs before they can be auctioned off. They are written off as surplus and given to a scrap dealer.

The career staffing consists of 2 engines manned by four, a ladder truck manned by three who also cross-staff an ambulance. The Authority contracts with some Ambulance service out of CT since so-and-so who is whats-his-name's favorite cousin is a part owner of the company and had a hook on the Town Board and help fund somebody's re-election campaign. The contract allows the ambulance provider to bill the patients AND collect a big check from the Authority every year. The Cordtland and Croton Regional Fire Authority, now known by it's jazzy new name "Cord/ton FirRescue.com - Your Hometown Community Service" (generated by a $800,000 proposal from a Madison Ave. PR firm, in conjunction with the Fire Authority's own 8 employee Media and Information Department) employs 65 office staff and 32 firefighters.

Apparatus purchases are deferred until further notice. The S.S. Don't Forget to Change Your Batteries, a 20,000 gpm fireboat is commissioned by the Authority after a vague assessment from the State DHS that the Authority needs a boat of some sort to protect "critical infrastructure". The boat quickly balloons to 95 feet long with the argument that a Regional Fire Authority has a mandate to provide world quality service to its community. It will feature two 900 sq.ft. staterooms and a banquet dining deck for use by Authority Board Members for entertaining benefactors of the Fire Prevention Program. Firefighters are offered the opportunity to work as kitchen help and waiters when off shift.

When the Authority gets a federal grant, instead of bolstering the firefighting staffing level, they use it to build a new "9/11 Memorial Administration Facility" after it is determined that the renovated buchanan firehouse is not adequate for the authority's needs. The buchanan fire house is given to a meals-on-wheels program for the increasing ranks of poor people in the Authority's coverage area.

Edited May 9, 2008 by Doc

[bil14ga 1]

Ok. Since x68eng119 opened the conversation up to some pie-in-the-sky, lets consider the other side of that coin. How it will work when politicians get involved...

I'm not picking on any specific departments, but since the T.o.Cordtland and V.o. Croton were mentioned...

The Cordtland / Croton Regional Fire Authority is formed. The Fire Advisory Board, appointed at the Town and Village Board's Pleasure consists of a couple former volunteer officers and a bunch of local business owners and lawyers who "know how to run businesses". In order to properly run a large Regional Fire Authority, the candidate search for Chief is conducted nationwide. Preference is given to local applicants, however a Mr. Whatsizface, a deputy chief with 18 years experience from the Middlanowhere, Georgia County Fire Department is hired at a salary commensurate to his experience and comparable to the greatest regional departments in the nation. He begins building his office staff by hiring friends from back home. His first project - to pick two fire houses.

After months of protests from the local communities, lawsuits by politicians and former fire district officers, and a News 4 exposee with "baby mommas" (who don't even live in the area) crying about their babies burning to death "cuz' dey closed da fiahhouse", two stations are chosen! After a two million dollar blue ribbon study involving a few strategically appointed (but poorly qualified) committee members the stations chosen are Montrose and Verplanck because they "offer a key blend of strategic resource features of great community value"(?) - according to the report which is completed two years after the fact. Since nobody buys old fire houses, especially ones filled with asbestos and lead, the new department must maintain and heat the old ones until, ultimately, all except Buchanan's old station are given away to not-for-profits. Buchanan's old staton becomes the new department headquarters facility after a multi-million dollar bonded rennovation where the bays have been sealed up and turned into offices for the purchasing and payroll departments for the Cordtland / Croton Region Fire Authority which now employs 35 non-uniform personnel who are paid in accordance with other regional fire authorities throughout the nation and neccessary to operate an "agency of this size".

A completely different set of paid firefighters is hired from civil service, many of whom bear an uncanny likeness in face and name to certain town and county officials. The VA at Montrose, seeing that the community how has 24 hour career fire protection, closes the VA fire department, relocating a couple of their firefighters to Castle Point, but offering the others jobs in the maintenance department. The Town hits financial trouble after the bunchanan firehouse renovation goes over budget. The money that was earmarked to be allocated to build a facility to maintain the Authority's apparatus is diverted to the bunchanan renovation. The apparatus facility is finally built using apparatus maintenace funds and the money saved by foregoing hiring actual mechanics to staff it. instad, all the old apparatus fro mthe now defunct departments is stored in the building.

A late night water line break (due to not heating the building) destroys many of the old rigs before they can be auctioned off. They are written off as surplus and given to a scrap dealer.

The career staffing consists of 2 engines manned by four, a ladder truck manned by three who also cross-staff an ambulance. The Authority contracts with some Ambulance service out of CT since so-and-so who is whats-his-name's favorite cousin is a part owner of the company and had a hook on the Town Board and help fund somebody's re-election campaign. The contract allows the ambulance provider to bill the patients AND collect a big check from the Authority every year. The Cordtland and Croton Regional Fire Authority, now known by it's jazzy new name "Cord/ton FirRescue.com - Your Hometown Community Service" (generated by a $800,000 proposal from a Madison Ave. PR firm, in conjunction with the Fire Authority's own 8 employee Media and Information Department) employs 65 office staff and 32 firefighters.

Apparatus purchases are deferred until further notice. The S.S. Don't Forget to Change Your Batteries, a 20,000 gpm fireboat is commissioned by the Authority after a vague assessment from the State DHS that the Authority needs a boat of some sort to protect "critical infrastructure". The boat quickly balloons to 95 feet long with the argument that a Regional Fire Authority has a mandate to provide world quality service to its community. It will feature two 900 sq.ft. staterooms and a banquet dining deck for use by Authority Board Members for entertaining benefactors of the Fire Prevention Program. Firefighters are offered the opportunity to work as kitchen help and waiters when off shift.

When the Authority gets a federal grant, instead of bolstering the firefighting staffing level, they use it to build a new "9/11 Memorial Administration Facility" after it is determined that the renovated buchanan firehouse is not adequate for the authority's needs. The buchanan fire house is given to a meals-on-wheels program for the increasing ranks of poor people in the Authority's coverage area.

Wow!!! Are we a little cynical?????

[Doc 11]

Wow!!! Are we a little cynical?????

Just a little.

[helicopper 1,050]

Wow!!! Are we a little cynical?????

You took the words right off my keyboard! And I thought I was a cynic!

[bil14ga 1]

You took the words right off my keyboard! And I thought I was a cynic!

What I find amazing is how we as firefighters continue to believe that the system is not broken. There has to be a better way than how we are responding to our costumers emergencies. Throughout the history of man we have fixed and reinvented countless consumer products and ways to do things. The mentality of some individuals just floors me. Everything here on this board and inside our firehouses seem to be distorted into a career vs volunteer attitude. As a career firefighter/lieutenant, I have always maintained a pro volunteer attitude. A well trained volunteer makes my job easier. There can be a working system that reduces the duplication of services at a cost effective rate. We need to put our minds together on this. We need to stop worrying about the patch on the side of the rig and start worrying about the fire service we will all eventually leave for the people behind us.

I am all for tradition in the fire service, but there is a time and place for tradition. I am all for pride and esprit de corps, but at some time we are going to have to swallow it. A narcissitic attitude tends to be pervasive in the fire service. We need to get it through our thick skulls that the fire service is not about the individual. It is about the people we serve.

Edited May 9, 2008 by bil14ga

[Bnechis 3,961]

You took the words right off my keyboard! And I thought I was a cynic!

i thought you were also....but, you just lost the title.

[M' Ave 1,466]

What I find amazing is how we as firefighters continue to believe that the system is not broken. There has to be a better way than how we are responding to our costumers emergencies. Throughout the history of man we have fixed and reinvented countless consumer products and ways to do things. The mentality of some individuals just floors me. Everything here on this board and inside our firehouses seem to be distorted into a career vs volunteer attitude. As a career firefighter/lieutenant, I have always maintained a pro volunteer attitude. A well trained volunteer makes my job easier. There can be a working system that reduces the duplication of services at a cost effective rate. We need to put our minds together on this. We need to stop worrying about the patch on the side of the rig and start worrying about the fire service we will all eventually leave for the people behind us.

I am all for tradition in the fire service, but there is a time and place for tradition. I am all for pride and esprit de corps, but at some time we are going to have to swallow it. A narcissitic attitude tends to be pervasive in the fire service. We need to get it through our thick skulls that the fire service is not about the individual. It is about the people we serve.

This is the attitude that EVERYONE needs to have when beggining this thought process and ensuing discusion. Fire departments (both career and vol.) suffer short-comings which desparatly need to be addressed. Fires are down and while emergencies are up, gone are the days where we are going to multiple jobs and constantly require the maximum manning and apparatus availability. Combining depts on some level has to happen. In the career case it may result in more jobs, it may keep the same number and it could reduce the number of jobs. I would tend to think that there wouldn't be a reduction, but more likely a more productive allocation of staffing.

For instance, a career dept that staff's an engine and a truck answering 1,000 alarms a year doesn't have the manning for a fire without calling for M/A. Why can't they be combined with similar neighboring dept.? Now you have 2 and 2 with a staff of 20 answering 2,000 alarms. That many people could even handle twice the run volume. Now you reduce administrative costs and perhaps the # of rigs while using the same staffing level more efficiantly.

Look at some volunteer/combo areas: In the sound shore there can be several depts within' one town. THat's several chiefs, several budgets and a lot of fat. Some dept's are combo, some are all vol. Some have enough staff, some do not (the term staff encompassing everyone). However, combined they might make better use of that staff. Most combo dept's don't have enough guys on the payroll to operate safely in the event that there is a shortage of volunteers. Others have plenty of volunteers. Through combination, you better insure a adequate volunteer response. If you look at a cross section of volunteer availability as a whole, you find that there are people who are able to respond more than they are called. Why not give them more opportunity to respond? At the same time, in the event that the response is not sufficient, you now have more career responders available, those neighbors who otherwise might not have been doing anyting while the others are responding. There is no job elimination, simply better use of current resources or any hired later. Lets face it, no where is there a precident for the elimination of ANY career FF positions, though, there are areas that do not need more, and some that do.

How about apparatus in those cases. There are areas that cover a population about 15% the size of Yonkers yet have the same number of rigs. WHAT?! Think about that too...

*Soap box breaks* Adios folks...........

[Doc 11]

Ok, sorry for that cynical rant. I wasn't completely serious about any of what I was saying, I was just painting the darker, sicker end of the rainbow and using a VERY heavy hand. It's like Jonathan Swift promoting the concept of eating the poor as a solution to poverty in early industrial Ireland (A Modest Proposal). Like I said in a post before; There have to be better, more cost effective ways of delivering service and consolidation is probably the way to go with it - and it IS the future of the fire service as we continue the transition from the narrow path of suppression to a broader and busier world of general emergency response.

However, going into it blindly with the expectation that those benevolent elected caretakers, who we call our leaders, have only the people and the fire service in mind had best take off the rose colored glasses. We must pay VERY CLOSE attention to who in Albany is promoting what and why. Albany is cash strapped due to the craptacular antics of Wall Street and the credit / mortgage crisis which they implicitly allowed to happen. The state is desperate to balance it's own books to the tune of $40billion dollars in FY 2009.

Looking at the amount of money being collected as tax revenue, it is quite obvious to certain persons in the Assembly and Senate Finace Committees and the Comptroller's office how much money is moving into local government. They are more than happy with raiding the local coffers if it delivers on campaign promises of reducing taxes, which I am in favor of, however I'm concerned that they are going to play the game of two steps forward and one step back - to reduce our property taxes only to increase our income taxes to redirect the funds to the state level. So, looking at the financial performance of our state legislators, one has to wonder how it will pan out. The changes that need to be made in our laws and state contitution to inact these recommendations have plenty of room for loopholes.

Once we, the fire service - meaning EVERYBODY who does this professionally and with passion - relenquish control of our organizations and culture to the larger political machine, be prepared to be surprised and potentially disappointed. Be prepared to see that same mentality that inflitrates so many government agencies try to seep in. Much of what makes this career rewarding is that you are giving back to your local community. When the decisions stop being made with the local community in mind - much like state school mandates - it stops feeling like good work and more like bureaucracy. Whatever solution is found, it has to come from within the fire service and not from the career politicians and lawyers who would be perfectly happy telling us what kind of "oxygen bottle" to put on our backs and what kind of "fire truck" to pull the hose off of.

We should grow to a regionalized service model... not be changed into it by others.