Fairview (Dutchess) Fire District Tax Base Issues

[mdm911 5]

For those who do not know about the Fairview Fire District in Poughkeepsie, we have a tax problem. Currently about 80% of our district is tax exempt. This makes the 20% very unhappy because their taxes are very high. Lately we have had a group of citizens who have been trying to fight the tax situation. The commissioners have been trying to do this for years. At a recent meeting held we had over 430 taxpayers show up to voice their concerns. I attached some links to some articles about the situation. Be sure to read the comments posted by readers. Also check out www.iaff2623.org for more info about the tax situation. We have come up with many possible ideas to fix this problem, a program where tax exempt properties would pay a certain amount similar to a tax, forming a Town of Poughkeepsie Fire Department(Fairview, Arlington, and New Hamburg,) and other ideas. I am just looking for any thoughts, suggestions or comments on the situation that may help us out. Also keep in mind that the county and state government have been far from helpful in our situation. Thanks.

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pb...D=2008804240333

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pb...ID=200880424039

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pb...D=2008804250339

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pb...D=2008804270345

[lad12derff 283]

For those who do not know about the Fairview Fire District in Poughkeepsie, we have a tax problem. Currently about 80% of our district is tax exempt. This makes the 20% very unhappy because their taxes are very high. Lately we have had a group of citizens who have been trying to fight the tax situation. The commissioners have been trying to do this for years. At a recent meeting held we had over 430 taxpayers show up to voice their concerns. I attached some links to some articles about the situation. Be sure to read the comments posted by readers. Also check out www.iaff2623.org for more info about the tax situation. We have come up with many possible ideas to fix this problem, a program where tax exempt properties would pay a certain amount similar to a tax, forming a Town of Poughkeepsie Fire Department(Fairview, Arlington, and New Hamburg,) and other ideas. I am just looking for any thoughts, suggestions or comments on the situation that may help us out. Also keep in mind that the county and state government have been far from helpful in our situation. Thanks.

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pb...D=2008804240333

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pb...ID=200880424039

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pb...D=2008804250339

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pb...D=2008804270345

Brother please explain to me again the tax issues for fire districts. Is it the commissioners job to raise the taxes to pay for the fire protection. Do the taxpayers have to vote on the proposal. I do know 1 of your commissioners on a personal level and have heard of the problems that you are talking about. I like the idea of a per bed tax for the colleges who are all tax exempt. I would like to know more about how fire districts work.

[Goose 188]

My understanding is that Marist donates money to the FD? Someone in one of those articles threw around the number of $115,000? Does that cover the responses to the college?

[TRUCK6018 50]

Is it the commissioners job to raise the taxes to pay for the fire protection. Do the taxpayers have to vote on the proposal.....

To preface the following, I am not intimately familiar with the Fairview situation other than what's printed in the Poughkeepise Urinal. However, I am familiar with fire district workings.

In New York State it is not a fire district's job to raise the taxes. The fire district is bound by state laws on what they can and can't do. The fire district sets an operating budget for the upcoming years anticipated expenses and pass along the budget to the town (or towns) board(s) with in the district to become integrated with the town budget. The town then taxes the appropriate home/land owners and businesses with in the said district. The tax payers do not need to vote on the budget but it is common for town boards to hold public hearings on the budget as a whole.

Isn't it beyond the county and state's level on the taxing of these exempt entities? It's the Federal IRS tax code that defines tax exempt and not for profit cooperations and businesses.

As far as these colleges giving donations, does the fire district ultimately receive the donations? Under current state law, fire districts can not accept donations. In most cases the donations are sent the fire department which can be ear marked for certain items but I don't think it can (legally) go into the fire districts coffers. I know of other fire districts that distribute any donations received to the fire companies of the district and the union of the district.

Edited April 29, 2008 by TRUCK6018

[Bnechis 3,961]

We have come up with many possible ideas to fix this problem, a program where tax exempt properties would pay a certain amount similar to a tax, forming a Town of Poughkeepsie Fire Department(Fairview, Arlington, and New Hamburg,) and other ideas. I am just looking for any thoughts, suggestions or comments on the situation that may help us out. Also keep in mind that the county and state government have been far from helpful in our situation. Thanks.

Fairview (both the one in Dutchess and the one in Westchester have a similar problem. To many tax exempt properties to provide a fair tax bill.

For the most part the county can do almost nothing to help. While they own DCC and other properties, if they decided to pay an inlue of payment, some one from another part of the county would complain that they were spending "their" tax money with no reguard for them. (I'm not saying this is right, just the argument that will be used.)

We have fought for many years to get 2 not for profit colleges to pay inlue of tax payments without luck. We even tried to get the public service commission to change the way hydrants are paid for (we rent them, and the non-profits get them for free).

The state would need to change the law to help here. Good luck.

I'm sorry to say that there are 2 problems with forming a Town FD:

1) the taxpayers in the other districts may feel that they are subsidizing your district and not want to see there rates go up.

2) It is currently illegal to have a town fire dept (a townwide fire district is ok). This year there was a proposal in the state budget to "force" this issue. If it had passed the town could go to referendum to form a town FD. The NYS Assoc. of Fire Chiefs fought against it.

I loved the EMINENT domain comment on the news site, 1st time I've ever agreed with it. Its a great threat, since the US Supreme court said that it can be used for the economic betterment of the community (Susette Kelo, et al. v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005).

"Posted - Large parcels of land available to any interested developer - $1 per Acre to any project that will pay full property tax. Location: in the area of Marist.... Contact FFD"

Then send notice that you plan on taking property to fund the district. That should get there attention

Wish I could be more possitive. The main answer is merge, make a larger tax base and things will get better. Very tough thing to do.

The other option is to play The ISO game. What's your rating (particularly in the area of Marist and St Fransis). Determine how much money you are or could be saving them. Then you could show how funding you can save them money.

Also why do you provide medivac standby at a hospital. Have them certify as a helipad and then its not needed (like at West med.) or have them "pay" for protection.

Good luck

[Bnechis 3,961]

In New York State it is not a fire district's job to raise the taxes.

But effectively it does.

The fire district sets an operating budget for the upcoming years anticipated expenses and pass along the budget to the town (or towns) board(s) with in the district to become integrated with the town budget.

If the district doubles the budget it also doubles the tax rate. Don't fire districts hold a vote on both 1 of the 5 commissioners and the budget (both operating and capital) every 2nd tue in December or March?

They send it to the town for collection, not for review and it does not become part of the town budget. The town assesser or tax collector acts as their agent.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Isn't it beyond the county and state's level on the taxing of these exempt entities? It's the Federal IRS tax code that defines tax exempt and not for profit cooperations and businesses.

The state could mandate an annual emergency service fee in lieu of property tax, that would not violate IRS code.

[201/65 94]

Would Arlington Station 6 be a viable option?

[mdm911 5]

Ok, a little bit more about our department.

First I want to say that I believe that all of this information is true, but I have been to so many meetings and heard so many numbers in the past few weeks that I cannot guarantee that they are all 100% correct. So don't quote me on these as facts.

The commissioners come up with a budget and then submit it to both the Town of Hyde Park and the Town of Poughkeepsie and they come up with the levy which is then raised by the fire tax.

The list of tax exempt properties is long, for the full list ->http://www.iaff2623.org/index.cfm?zone=/un...age=Tax20Issues

The fee-per-bed for the college is an idea that has been looked at for a while. County Legislater Jim Doxsey has really been working hard on this idea. I think this is definitely a viable option.

Marist College does give some money each year, it is somewhere between $100,000 and $115,000. Unfortunately it costs the district over $500,000 a year to respond to Marist.

We are not against the Dutchess Community College dorms specifically. We are against the dorms being put in and us/the taxpayers, not being compensated for this increase in life hazard and call volume. Currently the field that the dorms are to be built on is an empty field that is owned by the county. We do not have any calls in that field, there is the potential for a brush fire, but that is about it. If a college dorm is built there, we will still not be collecting any tax money and the potential calls will increase dramatically.

As far as us merging with Arlington or both Arlington and New Hamburg, their tax payers would most likely be opposed. As Bnechis said, no one wants to take on our burden. Personally I would love to see us merge to create a larger more effective department.

I also agree that county and state occupancies paying for fire services is an odd situation. Essentially the tax payers are still paying for the tax exempt county/state building, since they pay county/state tax, but it would be spread out among the whole county/state. The people in the other areas of the county and state may not like having to pay for these places fire protection, however they are county services/state services, that those people may use, they just happen to be located in Fairview.

Lastly a little about how we operate. We run two engines, one quint, and two BLS ambulances with four career guys and volunteers when available. We get along great with our volunteers, unfortunately we do not have enough of them. So for a lot of the calls, the four career guys is all you get. So needless to say we are a bit understaffed as it is. I think that for what our tax payers are paying they should get an ISO 1 department, but they don't. Each group operates a bit different, but for the most part on weekdays the two guys on the engine (1 FF and 1 LT) are also on the first ambulance. The two guys (2 FFs) on the truck(quint) are assigned to the second engine and the second ambulance as well. So for a lot of our fire calls we are going out with less than four guys, if there is an ambulance call prior. On the nights and weekends it is similar except the guys on the truck are on the first due ambulance and second engine, and the guys on the engine are on the second due ambulance. It's kinda confusing, but you gotta do what you gotta do when you only have four guys on a shift. So we would really like to increase to six or eight on a shift (still below NFPA suggestions) but that is not going to happen with the tax situation.

I really appreciate everyone's input, if you have any more questions let me know, or email me at mmeyerson@fairviewfd.net.

Edited April 29, 2008 by mdm911

[Goose 188]

I suppose that 500 grand comes from combined fire & ems response as far as Marist is concerned. Why not approach administration and propose that they include a small health and safety fee for student tuition.

Say, somthing along these lines:

$100 a year for resident students and $50 for commuter.

100.00 x the 4000 resident students = $400,000.00

Have them cut you a check twice a year for what they bring in under the health and safety fee.

[shadow12083 17]

Maybe if the college were willing to form a volunteer EMS similar to what Bard College has in place (Bard EMS Site). I am not really sure how well that works out in realty, but in theory I can seeing that help relieve alot burden from the districts. From the college's point of view it would be just like any other extra curricular activity, and give there students a little something to add on to their resume.

Edited April 29, 2008 by shadow12083

[LTNRFD 266]

Ok, a little bit more about our department.

Lastly a little about how we operate. We run two engines, one quint, and two BLS ambulances with four career guys and volunteers when available. We get along great with our volunteers, unfortunately we do not have enough of them. So for a lot of the calls, the four career guys is all you get. So needless to say we are a bit understaffed as it is. I think that for what our tax payers are paying they should get an ISO 1 department, but they don't. Each group operates a bit different, but for the most part on weekdays the two guys on the engine (1 FF and 1 LT) are also on the first ambulance. The two guys (2 FFs) on the truck(quint) are assigned to the second engine and the second ambulance as well. So for a lot of our fire calls we are going out with less than four guys, if there is an ambulance call prior. On the nights and weekends it is similar except the guys on the truck are on the first due ambulance and second engine, and the guys on the engine are on the second due ambulance. It's kinda confusing, but you gotta do what you gotta do when you only have four guys on a shift. So we would really like to increase to six or eight on a shift (still below NFPA suggestions) but that is not going to happen with the tax situation.

With 4 FF's on duty and 2 BLS ambulances, is it possible that ALL on duty career FF's could be out on EMS calls? Who handles the fire calls?????

[mdm911 5]

With 4 FF's on duty and 2 BLS ambulances, is it possible that ALL on duty career FF's could be out on EMS calls? Who handles the fire calls?????

This is possible and it happens, when both ambulances are out and a fire call comes in, the City of Poughkeepsie responds, if they are already on an alarm, then Arlington responds. If it is a third EMS call, Alamo is usually dispatched.

[TRUCK6018 50]

But effectivly it does.

If the district doubles the budget it also doubles the tax rate. Don't fire districts hold a vote on both 1 of the 5 commissioners and the budget (both operating and capital) every 2nd tue in December or March?

They send it to the town for collection, not for review and it does not become part of the town budget. The town assesser or tax collector acts as there agent.

Barry, when I stated a fire district doesn't raise the taxes, I meant it doesn't directly collect the taxes. Yes, they certainly make the taxes go up! You're right, the town can not oppose the budget but it does, become a line item in the town's budget under "special districts" along with any other fire districts with in that town or water, sewer or lighting districts.

While 1 of the 5 commissioners are voted on the second Tuesday of December by public vote, the budget is not. All that is needed to pass a budget is majority vote by the commissioners them selves. The residents of the district do not vote on the budget. If the fire district wishes to float a bond for capital expenses, that would need to be voted on by the public. Any capital expenses not requiring a bond have to go for a permissive referendum but that could be nothing more of a listing in the legal section of the newspaper.

Edited April 29, 2008 by TRUCK6018

[NWFDMedic 58]

Unfortunately, the problem for the Fairview Fire District is similar to the problems faced by several districts throughout the state. There really needs to be some revamping of the tax code for tax exempt properties.

First, places of worship and cemeteries should not be tax exempt. The Catholic church (just citing one) is one of the richest entities in the world. Although the wealth may not be passed down to the individual churches, places of worship should be responsible for bearing the tax burden for the public services that they enjoy, including the fire service.

Second, municipal properties that are available to a certain group should be responsible for the taxes in the municipality in which they reside. For example, DCC is an entity of the county available to county residents (and others of course), the county should be responsible for providing their share of the tax burden to the fire district or the Town of Poughkeepsie (for increased traffic on town roads, etc.). The same would go for county offices or state offices located in a particular municipality.

Third, private colleges should not be tax exempt period. They charge nearly half a thousand dollars per credit hour and their resources are not available for public use. The old argument for the tax exemption of private colleges was that they bring in money to the community. In Marist's particular case, I would imagine the majority of the "benefit" reaped by local business because the college is there goes to business in the City of Poughkeepsie or down in Arlington and New Hamburg. There is also a nationwide trend with private colleges to be a self-sufficient entity for their students which is posing a big problem in a lot of the "college towns" upstate.

Of course, none of this is going to be solved overnight and their probably isn't even a huge push to get this changed. I wish I had some answers but I don't. My fire district has similar problems with a large percentage of the district being residential and cemetery with the commercial base lying in the district next door.

[TRUCK6018 50]

First, places of worship and cemeteries should not be tax exempt....

Second, municipal properties that are available to a certain group should be responsible for the taxes in the municipality in which they reside......

Third, private colleges should not be tax exempt period.....

Upon reviewing the issues with Fairview specifically, let's not for get St. Francis Hospital who has no problem taking my money (not donations) and The Hudson River Psych Center, a 150 bed state run facility.

Reviewing the run reports on Fariview's website, it's sad that it appears that 1/2 to 2/3 their responses are to these properties when the rest of the district is paying the tab.

[Bnechis 3,961]

First, places of worship and cemeteries should not be tax exempt.

Cemeteries should be.....

1) how much service do we provide them? If running EMS, our response times are way to slow for the residence.

2) Have you ever tried to collect on someone taking a dirt nap......THey are never going to pay.

3) "Death & Taxes" ....the only thing that is absolute. I think the writer did not mean both at the same time.

LMAO....

[NWFDMedic 58]

Cemeteries should be.....

1) how much service do we provide them? If running EMS, our response times are way to slow for the residence.

2) Have you ever tried to collect on someone taking a dirt nap......THey are never going to pay.

3) "Death & Taxes" ....the only thing that is absolute. I think the writer did not mean both at the same time.

LMAO....

Well, I see your point, but they are still a revenue producing entity. Anyone who has buried a relative can tell you that. There's no reason why they can't charge a few more dollars to help offset the tax burden (note that your casket isn't tax exempt). Besides, it's not like cemeteries don't use resources (roads, police resources, brush fires, and I've been to a few EMS runs in cemeteries too ... not for the residents).