Does Anybody Get Annoyed Listenting To 46.26?

[x635 4,066]

I'm listening to 46.26 this afternoon, and its absolutely ridiculous.

Does anyone else get really annoyed and angry listening to the stupidity and nonsense that is on the air?

This afternoon, 46.26 was really busy with multiple departments going to many different legit incidents. However, what annoyed me was all the uncessary traffic and jibberish going on. I'll list some.

1.A PD calling 60 Control on air to cancel the a 45-Medic. USE THE PHONE!

2. Department using the air to announce a drill tonight. UNCESSARY!

3. Department stepping over another department being toned to a possible fire to announce a drill. RIDICULOUS!

4. Another PD calling 60 control on air to advise of Medic's status. Use the phone!

5. Three different dispatch centers dispatching three different FD's to the same call at the same place on the same channel (46.26) at the same time (as part of a dual response plan) at the same time? WHY CANT ONE DISPATCH AGENCY DISPATCH ALL THREE AT ONCE?

6. Multiple retones for a EMS crew

And that just scratched the surface of how listening to 46.26 raised my BP today. And people wonder why I don't listen to a scanner. Why cant ALL departments WORK together for a unified, professional radio system???

Just needed to vent, I cant beleive how long these problems have been going on and there is not even an attempt to fix it yet.

[mikerabbit 2]

x635,

Guess we were listening at the same time. Guess that why I came up with my last post. Too much nonsence on the air. I also blame the self dispatching FDs. They seem to drag out radio communications when not necessary. "unit xxx1 onscn 10-4 unit xxx1, Unit xxx2 onscn 10-4 unit xxx2, and so on.

[WAS967 97]

"unit xxx1 onscn 10-4 unit xxx1, Unit xxx2 onscn 10-4 unit xxx2, and so on.

How is that sample specific to self dispatch agencies? All comms should be like that. IF a unit calls a status to the Comm center, the comm center should acknoledge and repeat back the status. This is especially important in non-repeated radio systems covering large areas. I work a system where we are spread out over more than 100 square miles (does that sound right x635). If a unit up north calls a signal, it drives me NUTS when the comm center just says "10-4 45Medic-whatever." In the meantime I'm sitting there, unable to hear what they said because I'm miles away, wondering, okay....what is thier status? Some dispatchers echo, some don't. The ones that do, get my kudos.

[mikerabbit 2]

Was,

Im refering to sarcasim etc in the radio traffic. Alot of it seems unnecessary especially when a self dispatching agency has their trucks all within a mile or two I belive a simple 10-4 would do.

[Truck4 48]

Anyone listening to Vista's job last night heard how horrible the comm's were. 60 couldn't hear Vista's chief, 60 tried to move the job to an operational channel and Chief said no because interior crews could not be notified of the channel change, other dept's were toning out calls-- It gets crazy.

Anytime there's a job between 6pm and 9pm- good luck fighting with pager and radio tests.

Everyone's been ripping the system for quite some time and the "new" system is still being "worked on" by the politicians. When you listen to other departments/counties you really hear the difference and it's sad.

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

I agree with Mike. I have said the same in previous postings. If you want to use the radio like a telephone then get your own frequency to operate on and let the rest of the free world communicate on 46.26. It's out of control the amount of air traffic a department puts out on alarms as minor as wires down, or someone fainting. Isn't EMS supposed to be on another channel? just a though..

[Medic137 6]

Dutchess County has the best system I've worked in. One dispatch center, excellent radio set up, professional dispatchers. I wonder how they managed to ram the concept through the old time traditionalists. ("We've been doing it this way since 19XX")

[emt301 4]

Compared to Dutchess County's state-of-the-art system, Westchester County's radio/dispatch system is truly a joke.

60-control dispatchers do an OUTSTANDING job considering the excessive number of frequencies they're required to dispatch over & monitor...and the multiple dispatch protocols they're expected to follow depending on each agency...but thanks to the politicians and the "big fish in the little pond" mentality of some fire/ems chiefs the county is really an absolute mess. ALL fire and ems should be dispatched by 60-control....PERIOD. 1 frequency for dispatch, 1 frequency for responding/on scene, and 1 frequency for command/scene updates/additional equipment requests. All inter-departmental communications during an incident should be handled on fireground frequencies once units respond. This isn't a difficult concept to understand, yet it still can't be implemented because politicians and some fire/ems chiefs are so wrapped up in their own egos that they forget the public whom they are supposed to serve.

The only exceptions to the above radio system should be the larger cities (Mt. Vernon, Yonkers, New Rochelle, White Plains) who need to maintain their own frequencies.

[Pudge3311 5]

Pelham and Pelham Manor are also on the New Rochelle Frequency. I agree, listening to 46.26 does get very annoying with everyone stepping all over each other, and the dispatches IMO do the best job that they can given they are sometimes fighting with the self dispatching departments. I think those departments might be better served if they put the person at the radio back on the rig and had them respond instead of talking on the radio all the time.

[Guest DG795]

Some of the issues that in my opinion contribute to the communications problems:

1. Too many self dispatching agencies(as said).

2. I don't know what the FCC's rules are for call letters anymore, but listening to many other dispatch channels in the tri-state area and beyond I find that they do not use call letters as much as westchester loves to. How come no one else seems to have to do this, but westchester holds on to it? I may be wrong on this one, perhaps someone with some info on current FCC regulations could answer that.

3. Overpowered base stations- several of these self dispatchers are using well over the required power to achieve radio coverage over thier districts.

4. There are no standards for radio communications, you can do whatever you want with relatively no guidelines. In many progressive fire services, companies are required to state their staffing over the air, and commanders are required to make a size up report and accountablity report at a designated duration of incident (typically every 20 minutes)

4. Every department has slight variations of radio layouts. channel 1 may be relatively uniform across agencies, but it turns into a free for all beyond that. There is no standard county radio channel layout that is enforced.

5. If you need to make an announcement, fine. keep it to drill notifications and pertinent info, and call control before you tone out to ensure clear airwaves.

6. If you listen to 46.26 during a fire, 90% of the communications are the mutual aid companies toning out, responding, etc. There is relatively little dealing with the size up of the structure, incoming apparatus assignments, etc. I dont have a solution for this, but i still feel it is an issue.

I could go on for a few more, but I am already beating a dead horse. these issues and others have been stated countless times here and at meetings across the county. Talk is cheap, myself included. Its time we put our as*ses in gear and try and formulate a plan to improve it. there are a lot of intelligent and progressive people on this board with the right ideas to improve the county emergency services communications.

In addition, I feel that the new trunked system is not an end-all save-all for westchester's communication problems. there will still be two types of radios, trunked radios, and fireground radios (FG 1-8 ). If you want it to work it should be simple; channel 1 on a mobile radio in "dept abc" is the same as channel 1 in a portable radio in "dept xyz"

*and also, my utmost respect to the dispatchers as 60 control who deal with this antiquated system very professionally on a daily basis.

[ff026 0]

1st post here dont slay me!

man you guys have it bad over there.

at leat we here in rockland have it easy..

a numbering system that you know what type of truck is coming.

unified incident command system.

everyones channels are the same Low band or UHF

when you have announement or drill to put over the air you have to either Landline 44 control or call them on the radio.

and if the frequency is not part of the county system 44 control doesnt listen.

and we are going to the same system that you guys are going to

13 channel apco 25 trunked digital simulcast system.

[WAS967 97]

Dutchess County has the best system I've worked in.

I'll second that.

Hey, in Rockland, how come the ambulances and medics aren't dispatched by 44 control?

[Remember585 815]

All good points!

The one thing that sticks out the most to me is the comment DG795 made about the "channel lotto." Every department in Westchester is different when it comes to the low-band radios and which frequency is where.

But here's one that truly BLOWS MY MIND!!!!

The county's UHF Fireground channels and frequencies were setup so anywhere in the county if I say "go to Fireground 3," we should all be turning our knob to channel 3. I can't for the life of me understand the concept that some departments have decided to come up with. On some radios out there, FG 5 may be channel 12. Some other radios I've noticed have SOME OF THE FG CHANNELS, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM!!! I understand there is a BILLION channels out there, but for Christ's sake, at least make your first 8 channels the county Firegrounds!!!!!!!!!!

[mfc2257 464]

The easiest and quickest way to solve our problems until our politician led garbage system in put into place is for the 60 control or whom ever is in charge of 60 control to put their foot down and do the following.... No if's ands or buts.

Find a way to bring our fireground low band channels up to 4-6 real working channels. Buy more channels whatever... Just do it.

Then tell everyone in the county that 46.26 is a dispatch ONLY channel. Write an SOP that must be adhered to in order to use county radio channels that states that 46.26/33.96 are dispatch only and that from there when apparatus signs on the air via 46.26 they are immeadiatly moved to another channel...

Example... E-247 in 10-17. 10-4 E247 your operations are on channel 4. E-247 switches to channel 4 and never communicates on 46.26 again. As each subsequent apparatus signs on the air they are assigned to that fire ground channel. THEN... When all the other calls in the county come in, they will be assigned to different channels... and the major incident won't have to hear them on the air. 6 fire ground channels should to it. Most departments already use 46.14, 46.42... 46.30 is available among others. Number them 1-6 and you're set. It wouldn't cost much to have everyone's radios programed to have these channels placed in them.

Finally whom ever is in charge, should apply for emergency funding to add some repeaters in the county. A low band radio network CAN work in WC. If a consultant is hired we can bolster our existing system with a handful of repeaters and by changing the way we use our existing network until a more modern system is in place.

If we don't the consequences might be horrible.

[Stench60 29]

You don't take into consideration the fact that numerous departments are independently licensed to operate on 46.26 etc. and have the ability to tell the county to go pound salt.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the problem isn't the radio, it is the operator.

[emt301 4]

As stated previously, many of these agencies suffer from the "big fish in the little pond" syndrome. Just because they are licensed for 46.26 and possibly used it before others, they feel that they own it and that everybody else including 60-control will just have to deal with the situation. This is one of the reasons that nothing is getting fixed....

In the best interest of the county's citizens, which is why we all claim to be in this business, 60-control should have authority & control over 46.26. If the other departments don't want to go with 60, they should get off the frequency. These self dispatching departments should give up their use of this frequency for the greater good....but of course, some of them can't seem to put the greater good first, only their own egos.

[ff026 0]

Hey, in Rockland, how come the ambulances and medics aren't dispatched by 44 control?

medics and ambulances are dispatched by the local pd's, dont know why always been that way.

when our new system is built all ambulances and medics will be dispatched by 44 control, well that is the plan anyway.

[Medic137 6]

So I ask again:

How did Dutchess overcome the "We've been licensed on this frequency since before ______." And "It's OUR medic and WE'LL decide where it goes."

Anyone know?

[mstrang1 213]

Another problem with FG ops on 46.26 is confusion regarding officers who like to shorten their Car numbers and Engine Numbers. Ardsley FD does not dispatch on 60, but oftentimes members use "13" to mean "2013" and "64" instead of "Engine 164". I am not sure if there is an Engine 64 or Engine 65 in the county, or in New Jersey, where we commonly pick up radio transmissions from. Proper terminology is desperately needed.

Also, on an entirely different note, many departments still use 10-codes, which I am definitely against. 10 codes are different in many departments, and this will cause confusion among different depts operating on the same frequency.

[emt301 4]

Yet one more area where Dutchess County is light years AHEAD of Westchester....everything is done in plain language, no 10-codes.

In addition, in Dutchess County, the numbering system for rigs actually makes sense.

All units have identifiers that make sense, so you can tell what type of apparatus is being dispatched or on the air.

Engines: 11 thru 19, 21 thru 22

Rescues: 51 thru 55

Tankers: 31 thru 34

Pumper Tankers: 35

Aerials: 45 or 46

Utilities: 61 thru 65

Squads: 67 or 68

Ambulances: 70 thru 79

Hose trucks: 81

Commercial Medic Fly Cars: 85 thru 89

Commercial ALS Ambulances: Medic 1, Medic 2, Medic 3, etc.

For example, for Fairview Dutchess (dept #41)....their engines are 41-11 and 41-12, their aerial is 41-45, and their ambulances are 41-71 and 41-72. A very easy system to use and understand on the air. Chief officers are 41-1 and 41-2, with the duty capt 41-9.

I believe that Putnam County uses a similar, efficient, system.

[mfc2257 464]

EMT301 you are absolutely right about having proper ID for departments and apparatus. I've been a member of FD's and paid-on-call in several states. I've found that the absolute best way is to literally keep it as simple as possible. Take your suggestion like Putnam, Dutchess etc do it, but don't have seperate numbers for types of apparatus. Having rigs like 18-2-1 18-2-2 etc takes more time to understand on the air... Short numbers and words are easier.

If Ossining for example were numbered properly lets say they were Westchester County Company 24... instead of having E96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, L41, L42, R14, etc they would be E24-1, E24-2, E24-3, E24-4, E24-5, E24-6, L24-1, L42-2, R24.... Chief 24, Assistant Chief 24-1, Assistant Chief 24-2... And so on... The busiest counties in the nation (basically in MD and VA surrounding Washington) use this method and it is super clear on the radio.

[emt301 4]

Car 2254, you make a good suggestion. Your numbering method seems excellent...and is quite workable here in Westchester provided the various departments are willing to change from the way things have been done previously. That is the big hurdle.

On a side note, you mention the counties surrounding Washington D.C....I'm also very familiar with that area, and they are extremely progressive when it comes to Fire/EMS....especially Montgomery, Prince Georges, and Fairfax Counties.

[LCFD968 10]

Putnam is very similar to Dutchess. Each engine(2), tanker(4), ambulance(7), rescue(6) and ladder truck(5) has its own number which would be followed by the deptartment number.Department numbers for example Lake Carmel 17, Mahopac 18, Carmel 12. It works alphabetical. So when an engine signs enroute it would go like this" 40 control this is 17-2-1(Lake Carmel'sengine) , 17-2-1 enroute." or "40 control this is 18-5-1 (mahopacs Ladder truck), 18-5-1 on location."Also in some Putnam County departments Captains respond to the scene and they have there own numbers.Lake Carmel has three and there numbers are 17-9-4,17-9-5 and 17-9-6.

It is the third number in the line that represents the rig or person that is reponding. The way Putnam dispatchs has its moments. One good thing is 40 control dispatchs on one channel(46.38 ) and Fire Departments sign enroute on another channel(46.54) then the department has a home channel(fire ground)(46.50, 46.30).

[Pyroinvestigator 0]

right now westchester is getting even worse rather than better with its numbering....we have ladder xy and tower ladder xy...what is the difference...no one else distinguishes them...and since now there is actually a tower ladder 1 and a ladder 1 and they are BOTH tower ladders...then there are the ladders that call themselves Truck xy...this is going to get someone hurt one day when an order is given for ladder xy to do something and tower ladder thinks he got that order...and since there is one freq. that is used here it is also possible for another dept to be out at the same time and over hear a transmission and think it is for them and follow that order....this comes into play again when guys shorten the numbers like the chiefs do to just 64 instead of 2264 (example!) and now engine 64 or ladder 64 is thought to have made that transmission....it is so past its time for this county to get off their a** and fix the numbering, radio freq. dispatch methods, 911 points and security, consolidation not DUPLICATION of depts and apparatus, manpower, min. requirements....EMS dispatch, parmedics in all areas, HEAR radios...could go on and on...when are we going to even START to face these problems and get moving on them!

[Guest WolfEMT]

Why doesn't 60 Control dispatch on 46.26 and call that something like "Westchester Fire Dispatch" and then have all companies call in service and talk on a separate fireground channel?

Monmouth County NJ does that - all departments are toned out on Fire 1 and then call in service, talk to each other, and give updated status reports on Fire 2; Fire 1 is the dispatch channel and Fire 2 is the fireground channel.

[mfc2257 464]

Pyroinvestigator... I TOTALLY agree... BUT nothing will EVER be done in Westchester County until someone is EMPOWERED to take control over how we communicate and acquire resources.

Our county is big enough that there are too many departments doing it their way. Everyone is working on their own plan. There hasn't been enough of an effort over the years to bring departments together (not join them) and create a more consistant base. NOW there is an undaunting task of bringing that consistancy to our county from a communication, apparatus, SOP etc standpoint.

We are very far behind the times.... Many people don't see it because they don't see how important the big picture from a WC stantpoint is. They only see their department. IT IS OBVIOUS and the easiest example it is to look at areas where there are Tower Ladders piled upon more towerladders. Pleasantville, Hawthorn, Valhalla, Chappaqua, Thornwood, Mt. Kisco and MANY of their neighbors have TL's within spitting distance of each other. Why all the duplication. There is a reason why FDNY still buys straight sticks too.... Because TL's are the answer to everything. Cascades... There are no less than 13 of them in the county. Too many departments just looking at themselves. No one guiding them. Our heavy rescue classification in the county is a joke. Is anyone even looking at the ladder trucks to see if they qualify to be called one from a equipment and total ladder footage standpoint.

It is my opinion (and everyone knows that opinions are like.... Everyone's got one) that someone in WC (maybe a former Dir. of Emergency Services for a major jusistiction) needs to be hired to take control and maximize the efforts of all the wonderful volunteer, combination, and career departments that our county has.

The taxpayers of our county deserve it.

Our lives depend on it.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Part of the problem is low band VHF in the first place. Its getting harder and harder to find components for repair without upgrading to new systems.

Dutchess County's system is the answer. UHF. 1 dispatch channel, or split the county in half or 4 quads and have a dispatch channel for each. Have the same amount of "traffic" channels for responding/onscene, size up. Have 2 command channels for IC's use only and then firegrounds. Also a all comm county wide repeated channel would also be a plus. As far as how did they accomplish it, I believe they have been the #1 honcho on their frequencies for a long time. When they switched from "KED348" to "Dutchess 911" they answered for a few days, any of the traditionalist whom couldn't use their brain called them KED348, they didn't get answered. There aren't as many ego's up there, and we do it this way mentality that is over obvious. I have never heard a individual department put out a announcement in Dutchess, only through the communication center. Every wonder why they don't have the cluster fornications that we do? ONE PSAP other then city of poughkeepsie, ONE COMMUNICATION CENTER! COORDINATED SYSTEM!

[Stench60 29]

I've read through this and there are a hell of a lot of valid points made by everyone from doing away with ten codes to clarification of the apparatus radio identifiers. Now, just to lay out a couple of my own opinions on the whole matter.

1) Plain english is the way to go for communication purposes, it makes the intent of the message perfectly clear and is also much faster than looking up and sending a coded message and then recieving that message and again having to decode the meaning.

2) There is absolutely no reason for having seperate ladder and tower ladder designations.

3) Will some one finally explain to me why the designation rescue can have such an extreme latitude of meaning?

4) While I personally could care less what radio identifier is used for each piece of equipment, IMHO the shorter and clearer the better. Engine X, Ladder Y and Rescue Z are much easier to understand and say than 24-32-45-1 . For gods sake that sounds like Eli Mannining calling a bootleg left.

5) 46.26, 33.96, 46.14 etc. are not fireground channels, don't use them as such. After going on location, the only radio that should still be communicating on these channels is the Incident commander.

6) I can tell you the new radios are much closer than any of you think and provided that they are used correctly they will solve alot of the problems.

7) This is a real personal burn for me as a long time driver of PCFD Engine 1 ( county radio identifier Eng. 60 ). To all of you who love to spout car xyz or ladder abc to 60, please don't, It get's very confusing and annoying. Annoying enough that I have actually answered these messages a few times asking the individual if they have a message for Engine 60. In the middle of an incident this can be dangerous. Please use your heads.

Well enough for now, thanks for listening.

[EJS1810 7]

One of the reasons for radio identifiers that Putnam and Dutchess is to eliminate confusion. Dutchess used to use (Department Name) Engine 1, Engine 2, Truck 1, etc. The problem lies with mutual aid calls when you might have 4 Engine 1's on the scene. that tends to get confusing on the radio.

[Pudge3311 5]

IMO some of what Westchester does isnt too bad. I think the engine numbering is good, and it shows when the most of the bigger cities keep their designated numbers. The ladder numbering is rediculous. Why dont the Ladder numbers start in the same place the Engines start? And a ladder, whether its a tower or straight stick, is still a ladder. The duplication in that respect needs to stop. The Rescue numbering is also bad. A fly car is not a rescue, regardless of whether it is used for EMS. It is a utility at most.

Maybe if we just got our acts together and fixed the numbering, some of the communication problems might go away because u would eliminate the duplication and know what u were getting when you ask for a rescue and get a fly car.