We're our own worst enemy!

[helicopper 1,050]

It's no wonder that first responders continue to die in accidents - we don't modify our behavior to make ourselves safer!

I recently had the opportunity to be a spectator at an incident. Unfortunately, this situation repeats itself everywhere, all the time.

The incident occurred, an initial response arrived and determined that there was no fire, no injury, no bad-guy, no imminent hazard. Despite this assessment, for the next 15 minutes I watched a stream of emergency vehicles continued to respond with lights flashing and sirens blaring. Some of these vehicles had to pass traffic on the wrong side of the double yellow line and go through red lights in order to get to the scene - where they sat "in staging" with no assignment.

Once a credible report indicates that an urgent response is not warranted, why do we continue to put ourselves out there by responding "hot" and aggressively? Haven't we learned our lesson from all the previous lives lost in avoidable accidents?

Aren't supervisor's afraid of the liablity for allowing this to continue? Aren't they concerned about their personnel? If they are, why don't they correct this behavior?

If you're sitting in that emergency vehicle, don't you want to go home after the call? Why do you tolerate such a response when you know the scene is secure? Do you really believe that your driver has magical skills that will make the moron who cuts you off or fails to yield disappear?

Come on, we have to modify our behavior if we're going to reduce line of duty deaths from accidents!!!

[Goose 188]

Just curious, did the shift commander/ officer in charge ask direct incoming units to downgrade their response?

[yfd910 8]

For 15 minutes rigs kept coming in? I'd love to know what Department did this......

15 minutes, huh?? That's a LONG time to keep responding.......

[helicopper 1,050]

Just curious, did the shift commander/ officer in charge ask direct incoming units to downgrade their response?

I didn't hear that specifically. I heard the info about the scene being under control being broadcast. If it's under control why are we still screaming to the scene?

For 15 minutes rigs kept coming in? I'd love to know what Department did this......

15 minutes, huh?? That's a LONG time to keep responding.......

Let me rephrase this... 15 minutes after the initial units arrived on scene, additional resources were still responding in with lights and siren.

[KCRD 6]

15 minutes after the initial units arrived on scene, additional resources were still responding in with lights and siren.

If units were still coming 15 minutes AFTER the first arriving units there is a serious problem. Do you know how long it took the first units to get there? If it took them 5 minutes to arrive, then it takes other units 20 minutes to get there. Very sad and I feel for those living in that district.

Edited April 16, 2008 by KCRD

[Monty 35]

I'm a bit late - but can we try and keep it on topic Lets forget the whole part about 15 minutes.

I do have to agree with Chris though on the main point of running 'hot' when there is no emergency. I don't always like talking about how it used to be done at my old Department, but .... Line Officers had the authority (and were expected to use it) to cancel, or downgrade responding units. There are some departments in Westchester where you do hear them say to respond non-emergency - but it doesn't happen too often.

How many times do you hear 'respond with caution'? What does that mean. Not quite so fast? I don't know if there are any departments where that means no lights / sirens.

How about cover companies? How many respond 'hot' to those to stand by in someone else's quarters - just in case???

Now my personal opinion to the original question, pick one of these ....

1/ To get their kicks / adrenaline rush

2/ Because we've always done it this way

3/ Because we don't trust the person at the scene

4/ Because things might go wrong and we might be needed

5/ Because we're ignorant

[FirNaTine 370]

These are the same individuals who respond with lights and sirens blaring for a water leak, lift assist, lock-out, lock-in, etc.etc.. I guess there's many out there that are still little kids at heart and get a rise out of this. Maybe it's got something to do also with a Depts. low work load and when the chance arises, everyone must rush to the scene to play. It's ridiculous and irresponsible to say the least.

[Future Fireman 4]

Now my personal opinion to the original question, pick one of these ....

1/ To get their kicks / adrenaline rush

2/ Because we've always done it this way

3/ Because we don't trust the person at the scene

4/ Because things might go wrong and we might be needed

5/ Because we're ignorant

How about 6/ ALL OF THE ABOVE

Mike

[DaRock98 76]

These are the same individuals who respond with lights and sirens blaring for a water leak, lift assist, lock-out, lock-in, etc.etc.. I guess there's many out there that are still little kids at heart and get a rise out of this. Maybe it's got something to do also with a Depts. low work load and when the chance arises, everyone must rush to the scene to play. It's ridiculous and irresponsible to say the least.

I agree with your points here. I don't think it's nessary to respond to any of those calls lights and sirens its just ridiculous. My personal opinion is that if you are responding to an automatic alarm that you go to 5 times a week the first due engine should respond lights and siren and the rest of the incoming apparatus should be responding non emergency mode until the first unit on scene reports either a working fire or declares there is an actual emergency. As for people responding lights and siren to cover another departments station if there is no job holding for you why put yourself and the public in danger. You're going there to SIT in someones station thats not an emergency.

[EJS1810 7]

How many times do you hear 'respond with caution'? What does that mean. Not quite so fast? I don't know if there are any departments where that means no lights / sirens.

This has always been a pet peeve of mine. If we have to tell people to respond with caution, does that mean they normally respond with reckless direguard for safety? I alway say there are 2 response modes, Emergency or Non Emergency. In the Non Emergency mode you respond no lights or siren with the normal flow of traffic.

[yfd910 8]

For one thing, the subject of 15 minutes is exactly what this topic is about, so to keep responding 15 minutes after the arrival of first due units is pathetic.....

In Yonkers we're returned as soon as the first arriving officer tells the Battalion Chief it's nothing or that the first in units can handle. That's probably an average of 4 minutes afterwards.

There are plenty of times 3rd and 4th due Companies never make it to the scene and are returned en-route.

Also, our first officer's call a 10-20 upon arrival if nothing is showing, which is a cautionary response: take it down a notch, slow down, etc.

As far as lights and sirens, I believe the V&T law states when responding to emergencies, lights and sirens are to be on. What happens if you get into an accident on the way to a call with no lights and sirens on? The person sues and finds that out? You'll be hung out to dry. My first Department tried to have 2nd and 3rd due units respond no lights and sirens because people in the town complained we made too much noise, and as an Exec. Board member, we fought that order and it lasted a few days before it was deemed asinine by all involved with it.

Now, as for responding "HOT" please.....I have been told by many friends that those cars you see with the "blue lights" on the dashboard will run you off the road if you don't get out of the way. And that's a personal vehicle, not a 40,000lb rig with lights and sirens. Guys need to slow down when driving, period.

...and I'd still like to know where and what Department kept rigs coming in 15 minutes after the arrival of the first units.......

[EJS1810 7]

As far as lights and sirens, I believe the V&T law states when responding to emergencies, lights and sirens are to be on. What happens if you get into an accident on the way to a call with no lights and sirens on? The person sues and finds that out? You'll be hung out to dry. My first Department tried to have 2nd and 3rd due units respond no lights and sirens because people in the town complained we made too much noise, and as an Exec. Board member, we fought that order and it lasted a few days before it was deemed asinine by all involved with it.

Lights & Sirens have to be on when responding in an Emergency Mode and you are "requesting the right of way" i.e. going through red lights/stop signs, traveling in the opposite lane, etc. If you are responding Non Emergency in the normal flow of traffic an accident is like any other accident. This is another of the old falicies of the fire service that you have to go lights & siren to everything. St Louis FD has a long list of calls they respond to "on the quiet" or in the Non Emergency mode.

[5slow 9]

Only two things need to be said on the radio by arriving units: Slow it down or keep em' coming! If those two things are taken seriously, then everyone should arrive safely.

[DaRock98 76]

Also, our first officer's call a 10-20 upon arrival if nothing is showing, which is a cautionary response: take it down a notch, slow down, etc.

After a 10-20 is issued do they still come in lights and siren just slower?

[yfd910 8]

Lights & Sirens have to be on when responding in an Emergency Mode and you are "requesting the right of way" i.e. going through red lights/stop signs, traveling in the opposite lane, etc. If you are responding Non Emergency in the normal flow of traffic an accident is like any other accident. This is another of the old falicies of the fire service that you have to go lights & siren to everything. St Louis FD has a long list of calls they respond to "on the quiet" or in the Non Emergency mode.

So are you saying there are non-emergencies that we respond to or are you referring to relocating and such??

I consider a call a non-emergency when the first arriving officer tells me so.....and until I get there, it's an emergency.

[OnTheWheel 43]

If you have one engine on scene with Chiefs and determine that there is NOTHING, then why even have the additional resources continue. Holding them in quarters seems more appropriate and less liability is present. At least that way they are "ready" to respond at a moments notice and aren't blaring through town. This should also apply to "responding personel" in POVs, it goes back to the blue light topic. And after it is determined there is nothing they should be returning all personel and apparatus ASAP! Don't have trucks sitting there in the middle of traffic for nothing, or sitting anywhere for nothing. Volunteer's time is precious, and why waste it after it is confirmed there is no problem, I know it is a deterance for me to respond if I know Ill sit there for up to 1/2 hour while the Chiefs try and reset the alarm, it's rediculous and uncalled for.

[firemoose827 324]

I agree with your points here. I don't think it's necessary to respond to any of those calls lights and sirens its just ridiculous. My personal opinion is that if you are responding to an automatic alarm that you go to 5 times a week the first due engine should respond lights and siren and the rest of the incoming apparatus should be responding non emergency mode until the first unit on scene reports either a working fire or declares there is an actual emergency. As for people responding lights and siren to cover another departments station if there is no job holding for you why put yourself and the public in danger. You're going there to SIT in someones station thats not an emergency.

I agree with you there brother. Responding units should use common sense more often, if you have a unit on scene already than you should step it down and just get there. The same with radio transmissions but thats a separate topic all together!

And as for the point of standing in someones station...There shouldnt even be an argument, lights and sirens are not needed. The reason you are standing in someones station is to cover any additional calls they may have during their fire. If anything happens before you arrive at their station than you can light them up, but responding hot to stand in, than turning the lights off to back into their station to me is just plain asinine. Its happened before where our driver passed someone on the road lights and sirens, and the person actually arrived at our neighbors station still behind us when we turned our lights off and backed into their bay. The driver walked over and had a "Chat" with our driver, I stayed out of it.

This has always been a pet peeve of mine. If we have to tell people to respond with caution, does that mean they normally respond with reckless direguard for safety? I alway say there are 2 response modes, Emergency or Non Emergency. In the Non Emergency mode you respond no lights or siren with the normal flow of traffic.

Well put and simple enough, yet there are still officers out there that keep making up their own responses. Instead of saying "On scene, All other units return to quarters" they tell them to "Respond Incident Under Control", or "Respond at your discretion" (thats my favorite one to hear) Does that mean the driver can respond balls to the wall lights and sirens, passing people? And they even have the excuse, "Well the officer said to respond at my discretion..."

It should be simple...If you are on scene and the incident is stable and you need no additional resources than return the responding units to their quarters.

But what these days is simple anymore....

Good points by all.

[yfd910 8]

After a 10-20 is issued do they still come in lights and siren just slower?

Lights and sirens and "supposed" to go a little slower until returned.....but you never know just because an Officer calls 10-20 from the front doesn't mean there's no fire in the back.

[helicopper 1,050]

As far as lights and sirens, I believe the V&T law states when responding to emergencies, lights and sirens are to be on. What happens if you get into an accident on the way to a call with no lights and sirens on? The person sues and finds that out? You'll be hung out to dry. My first Department tried to have 2nd and 3rd due units respond no lights and sirens because people in the town complained we made too much noise, and as an Exec. Board member, we fought that order and it lasted a few days before it was deemed asinine by all involved with it.

The V&T law empowers an emergency vehicle to disregard certain regulations while responding to an emergency as long as they're using their lights and sirens. There is no obligation to exercise that privilege. Once the response is downgraded and they turn off the lights and siren, they just follow the rules of the road. If they get involved in an accident under those circumstances, they'd be treated just like any other vehicle. How is that any different than going to the shop for maintenance, the training center, being out to pick up food or perform field inspections?

[firemoose827 324]

The V&T law empowers an emergency vehicle to disregard certain regulations while responding to an emergency as long as they're using their lights and sirens. There is no obligation to exercise that privilege. Once the response is downgraded and they turn off the lights and siren, they just follow the rules of the road. If they get involved in an accident under those circumstances, they'd be treated just like any other vehicle. How is that any different than going to the shop for maintenance, the training center, being out to pick up food or perform field inspections?

I think he mis-interpreted that Chris. The only thing I can remember from my EMS Captain days was we were told that if you have the lights on, the siren must also be on. We couldnt just run the warning lights as a precaution, we had to have them both. SO maybe thats what he meant too, but, who knows!!

What about the response classifications?? Anyone else use them? We have the Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, and Echo responses, Echo being the worst case scenario and Alpha being a stop for coffee on the way type deal. Whatever happened to just getting there as fast and safe as you can and determining whats going on? But that might be another topic also, sorry, didnt mean to steal the thread!

[EJS1810 7]

So are you saying there are non-emergencies that we respond to or are you referring to relocating and such??

I consider a call a non-emergency when the first arriving officer tells me so.....and until I get there, it's an emergency.

It's thinking outside the box.

From Fire-Rescue Magazine

Several years ago, the St. Louis Fire Department (SLFD) established an "On the Quiet" response system, in which only certain calls require lights and sirens. Many other fire departments have also followed the example, dictating when lights and sirens will be used — and when they won't. For example, SLFD companies respond with no lights or sirens for automatic alarms, sprinkler alarms, natural gas leaks, wires down, calls for manpower, highway wash-downs, lockouts, carbon monoxide detector alarms, and fires in rubbish, weeds and dumpsters.

If a call is dispatched as a quiet response and the dispatcher receives additional information indicating a life is in danger, people are injured or there is a working fire, dispatch will upgrade the call to "urgent" and the responding apparatus' lights and sirens will be activated. Since the SLFD implemented the silent alarm policy for non-emergency response, the department has significantly reduced the number of intersection vehicle crashes … and the city is still standing.

The whole article:

http://www.firerescue1.com/firerescue-maga...-Your-Seatbelt/

[EJS1810 7]

What about the response classifications?? Anyone else use them? We have the Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, and Echo responses, Echo being the worst case scenario and Alpha being a stop for coffee on the way type deal. Whatever happened to just getting there as fast and safe as you can and determining whats going on? But that might be another topic also, sorry, didnt mean to steal the thread!

My county announced we would be using the response determinates recomended by the National Academy of Emergency Dispatch. The local departments said they would respond how they normally respond and will not use the response modes recomended by a nationaly recognized organization. If I heard "what if" one more time when we tried to explain the system I was going to scream.

It's a large box..........sometimes it's hard to get out of.

[Oswegowind 17]

After a 10-20 is issued do they still come in lights and siren just slower?

That is fine, in other words, don't kill yourself (not that you should've been to begin with) and don't get boxed into a situation where it will be difficult to remove from because there is no imminent hazard. However, until a preliminary report is given and units are told they can go back in service and discontinue their route to the scene, they continue to respond and stay on the outer perimeter or on the "main" roads.

So are you saying there are non-emergencies that we respond to or are you referring to relocating and such??

I consider a call a non-emergency when the first arriving officer tells me so.....and until I get there, it's an emergency.

All departments respond to non emergencies. Whether it be police, fire, or ems. It is a part of the job! A basement full of water during a large storm is not really an emergency, unless other hazards occur and deem it so by default. An elderly person locked out of their apartment on Western Ave is most definitely not an emergency (using the street cause he is yfd910 and that is a routine call for L-74). Or responding from 1 fire scene back to the first fire scene that is now either out or deemed under control in order to investigate its cause and origin is not a true emergency. Regularly people need our help in some way or another, however not all of the time do they need it so immediately if there is no risk of loss of life, limb, property, or the pursuit of happiness (this really doesn't go here).

As for below, should we make this topic a poll and each member answers as to their own issue?????

Now my personal opinion to the original question, pick one of these ....

1/ To get their kicks / adrenaline rush

2/ Because we've always done it this way

3/ Because we don't trust the person at the scene

4/ Because things might go wrong and we might be needed

5/ Because we're ignorant

How about 6/ ALL OF THE ABOVE

Mike