NYS Blue Light Law

[Remember585 815]

Does anyone else feel as though we, the fire/EMS community, should have been included in the revamped NYS blue light law that applies to police vehicles? I know certain organizations faught the legislation because of fear that we, the vols, would lose our blue lights in our POVs. What's more important - displaying a COURTESY light to maybe aid us in getting to an emergency, or improving the visibility of our apparatus when operating on scene?

To me, it's a no brainer. Let FD and EMS vehicles use rear-facing blue lights to help make them more visible to the motoring public. Studies showed how useful amber warning lights to the rear were, so FD, EMS and PD units ALL added them in. Even the NFPA recognized the use of amber warning lights and put them in their rig warning light recommendations.

My other question - if a FD apparatus decides to add blue warning lights to improve it's visibility, should the PD be expected to enforce the law and order those lights to be removed?

It annoys me to no end to see tow trucks, plows, construction vehicles, cable and phone trucks, etc. etc. etc. who are only allowed to use amber lights - displaying red and/or clear lights - and rarely ever getting addressed. I mean, if PD is going to enforce the blue light law in FD/EMS vehicles and/or POVs, then why not be as strict regarding the use of the red/white lights used by utilities vehicles?

Thoughts?

[JRS2817 1]

i agree with you on tow trucks, plows, construction vehicles, cable and phone trucks using red and white, and i also agree with you with you that fd should be able to use blue lights

[Guest stephentyler20]

I think few cops care about enforcing these laws as much as we think, and for good reason. Utility trucks with rear-facing red/white strobes? Good for them, it increases their visibility and makes the road a bit safer for you and me. Blue lights on fire and EMS trucks? Fine, whatever. If it's safer, brighter, whatever, no cop is going to give a darn what color the light is. Don't know if that would pass inspection or not, but just pop an LED blue light (clear when off) on there, and that might do it.

Point being, these issues should be pragmatic, and not nitpicked. Red, green, blue, personal vehicle, agency vehicle, WHATEVER... as long as they're not driving with blatant disregard for safety, or misrepresenting themselves (i.e. vollies making traffic stops or something) I don't care what color the light is or what kind of car or truck it's on. Just be safe!

Edited April 11, 2008 by stephentyler20

[DaRock98 76]

Has anyone ever heard of an emergency vehicle being ticketed for this?

[Beekman 5]

East Fishkill Fire was having issues. Don't know if it was EFPD or the State Police. Chief Scott Post is involved with the legislation to fix the problem. I'm sure he'll pop on here shortly.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

East Fishkill Fire was having issues. Don't know if it was EFPD or the State Police. Chief Scott Post is involved with the legislation to fix the problem. I'm sure he'll pop on here shortly.

Thanks Shawn. Yes, this actual very issue was brought up in the posting about East Fishkill's new Rescue 51. It has a blue LED warning light on the back of the new vehicle, and in the thread, this post was made.

Please follow the link to find the reply from Chief Scott Post Re: Blue Light Issue

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?s=&s...st&p=130460

[helicopper 1,050]

Has anyone ever heard of an emergency vehicle being ticketed for this?

I've heard of civilian vehicles having issues with emergency lights (color, use, number, etc.) but not an actual emergency vehicle.

Why don't we just eliminate blue and green "courtesy" lights and put blue on the back of all emergency vehicles?

[OnTheWheel 43]

i agree. it appears after many years of observing them that they dont work, people dont move and they just seem to create problems.

[Remember585 815]

Has anyone ever heard of an emergency vehicle being ticketed for this?

I haven't heard of any tickets issued but I know of a fire truck getting stopped by a cop for having blue lights.

[helicopper 1,050]

ok i have blue and white in the frunt of my truck and blue white and red out the back and i have never had a prob infact some of the cops ask me how much everything cost becouse they like it and think its better and the truck can be seen from the back and that i have more lights out the back of my truck then they do and as fire trucks go they also should have blue out the back it can be seen from farther away then the red and amber it stands out thats way the cops use them and i also know of a dept who has a fire truck in dutchess with blue in there frunt light bar as for people moveing out of the way of blue lights i find blue and white they move faster my 2 cents

I assume that you're talking about your personal vehicle so please send me a copy of your drivers license and I'll send you the ticket for illegal lights!

Why is everyone so worried about the law when it is routinely and flagrantly ignored by virtually everyone including the cops who could enforce it?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm pretty sure I have said this before and no ill will intended towards ya 585..you know that brother.

WHO CARES!!!

One thing I can say from management perspective...I could care less if there was a PD that had all blue light bars. One agency doing something that isn't legal doesn't give the right for anyone else to run amok. Kinda like saying well the cruiser has a broken headlight so I shouldn't get a ticket for speeding. You were still speeding, their status changes nothing!

I still say more amber, knock off the laser light shows and LED sticks and crap....

Maybe someone can answer this question for me, I've never had a blue light and got to scene's just fine...what exactly is the sense of sitting at a red light with a blue or green light ablazin'? Why draw attention to yourself...without your just like every other maniac on the road..you'll still get to the scene and I bet maybe even a few seconds faster...blue/green light on...your a yahoo...nothing on...your just another a**hole on the road.

37 FF's have died in the Line of Duty already this year... better physical fitness support? Longer training curriculums? Better support and madates for comprehensive training programs within departments?

How many POV colored lights have saved a life this year?

[runaway21 0]

I'm pretty sure I have said this before and no ill will intended towards ya 585..you know that brother.

WHO CARES!!!

One thing I can say from management perspective...I could care less if there was a PD that had all blue light bars. One agency doing something that isn't legal doesn't give the right for anyone else to run amok. Kinda like saying well the cruiser has a broken headlight so I shouldn't get a ticket for speeding. You were still speeding, their status changes nothing!

I still say more amber, knock off the laser light shows and LED sticks and crap....

Maybe someone can answer this question for me, I've never had a blue light and got to scene's just fine...what exactly is the sense of sitting at a red light with a blue or green light ablazin'? Why draw attention to yourself...without your just like every other maniac on the road..you'll still get to the scene and I bet maybe even a few seconds faster...blue/green light on...your a yahoo...nothing on...your just another a**hole on the road.

37 FF's have died in the Line of Duty already this year... better physical fitness support? Longer training curriculums? Better support and madates for comprehensive training programs within departments?

How many POV colored lights have saved a life this year?

I would have to agree with you on this alsfirefighter! The blue lights cause more attention to be made to yourselves' and the more the other' drivers will try to purposely piss you off because they don't care.. bottom line; I'm sure I'm not the only one that would agree with the fact that people, that are not involved in Fire, EMS, Police or any other emergency service, don't care where you a going and are more worried about themselves' getting to a baseball game i.e. Without the display of the blue light on Pov's you draw less attention to yourself'. I've found that NOT using a blue light has worked perfectly fine for me.. I get where I need to go just fine without it, but I don't think that it should be banned.

As far as the blue lights on emergency vehicles: I use to hate when I first started seeing blue lights on Police vehicles, but I actually like that they have them on their vehicles because you CAN see them from a farther distance and it gives you more of a warning they are there. However, I think that all emergency vehicles should be able to display blue lights in the rear and not just Police Vehicles. I hope that the appending law in NYS regarding' displaying Blue Lights on Fire/EMS vehicles gets passed, because it just makes sense.

[TL2L31 8]

I will say that I do know of one way that blue lights are effective. When approaching a fire scene I have turned on my light and fire police or a regular pfficer has moved a barricade or a car for me .

[DOC22 1]

I will say that I do know of one way that blue lights are effective. When approaching a fire scene I have turned on my light and fire police or a regular pfficer has moved a barricade or a car for me .

That's the only true purpose of the coloed lights on POVs, other than Chiefs using their POVs (if there are any of those left)

If I had a blue light after I got out as chief, it wasn't for too long. I still have the card, but haven't had a blue light in years, and don't miss it a bit.

[NYRangers30 1]

I don't understand what the big deal is having them as courtsey lights and as apparatus warning lights. The law says that the bule is a courtsey light in POV's therefore it has no actual bearing as it would on the back of the apparatus. My point is that they might as well just let them be used as courtsey lights and as warning lights. And i would just like to point out that where i live the blue courtsey light is very useful. People around here know that it means nothing, but still allow me to pass, knowing that i am doing the community a service

[xfirefighter484x 234]

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A10412

S T A T E O F N E W Y O R K

________________________________________________________________________

10412

I N A S S E M B L Y

March 28, 2008

___________

Introduced by M. of A. BALL -- read once and referred to the Committee

on Transportation

AN ACT to amend the vehicle and traffic law, in relation to authorizing

certain lights to be affixed to emergency vehicles

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK, REPRESENTED IN SENATE AND ASSEM-

BLY, DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS:

1 Section 1. Paragraph 4 of subdivision 41 of section 375 of the vehicle

2 and traffic law, as amended by chapter 45 of the laws of 2006, is

3 amended to read as follows:

4 4. Blue light. a. One blue light may be affixed to any motor vehicle

5 owned by a volunteer member of a fire department or on a motor vehicle

6 owned by a member of such person`s family residing in the same household

7 or by a business enterprise in which such person has a proprietary

8 interest or by which he or she is employed, provided such volunteer

9 firefighter has been authorized in writing to so affix a blue light by

10 the chief of the fire department or company of which he or she is a

11 member, which authorization shall be subject to revocation at any time

12 by the chief who issued the same or his or her successor in office. Such

13 blue light may be displayed exclusively by such volunteer firefighter on

14 such a vehicle only when engaged in an emergency operation. The use of

15 blue and red light combinations shall be prohibited on all fire vehi-

16 cles. The use of blue lights on fire vehicles shall be prohibited and

17 the use of blue lights on vehicles shall be restricted for use only by a

18 volunteer firefighter except as otherwise provided for in subparagraph b

19 of this paragraph. THE AFFIXING OF A BLUE LIGHT TO THE FRONT OF A MOTOR

20 VEHICLE SHALL BE EXCLUSIVE TO A MOTOR VEHICLE OWNED BY A VOLUNTEER

21 MEMBER OF A FIRE DEPARTMENT AS MORE PARTICULARLY DESCRIBED AND SET FORTH

22 ABOVE.

23 b. In addition to the red and white lights authorized to be displayed

24 pursuant to paragraph two of this subdivision, one or more blue lights

25 or combination blue and red lights or combination blue, red and white

26 lights may be affixed to {a police} AN EMERGENCY vehicle AS DEFINED IN

27 SECTION ONE HUNDRED ONE OF THIS CHAPTER, provided that such blue light

28 or lights shall be displayed on {a police} SUCH EMERGENCY vehicle for

EXPLANATION--Matter in ITALICS (underscored) is new; matter in brackets

{ } is old law to be omitted.

LBD14660-02-7

A. 10412 2

1 rear projection only. In the event that the trunk or rear gate of {a

2 police vehicle} SUCH EMERGENCY VEHICLE obstructs or diminishes the visi-

3 bility of other emergency lighting on such vehicle, a blue light may be

4 affixed to and displayed from the trunk, rear gate or interior of such

5 vehicle. Such lights may be displayed on {a police} SUCH EMERGENCY vehi-

6 cle when such vehicle is engaged in an emergency operation. Nothing

7 contained in this subparagraph shall be deemed to authorize the use of

8 blue lights on {police} SUCH EMERGENCY vehicles unless such vehicles

9 also display one or more red or combination red and white lights as

10 otherwise authorized in this subdivision.

11 c. The commissioner is authorized to promulgate rules and regulations

12 relating to the use, placement, power and display of blue lights on {a

13 police vehicle} AN EMERGENCY VEHICLE AS DEFINED IN SECTION ONE HUNDRED

14 ONE OF THIS CHAPTER.

15 S 2. This act shall take effect immediately.

[mfkap 0]

The reason I heard (totally unbased rumor, but sounds like what would happen when emergency services and politics meet) that the law only permits police vehicles is when the State Police originally tried to get this law passed, they were opposed by the firefighter lobby because having "courtesy lights" and emergency vehicles both displaying blue would cause confusion to the general population, and the courtesy lights power was more important than emergency vehicles being easily seen (as a side note, if the state police really wanted to be seen, maybe they should pick a color other than dark blue for their vehicles). So, in response to the fire services lobby, the State Police made sure that, once the law passed, the fire service would not benefit from it (a big FU to the fire guys).

I know, it is hard to pick who is less intelligent here: the fire service putting volly dash lights ahead of emergency vehicle visibility, or the police making sure that the fire service would not benefit from the added safety. I am glad we can all work as a team.

And here is another question not directly pertaining to blue lights, but about visibility of emergency vehicles: Why is a vehicle looking cool more important than safety? Is it just a general lack of intelligence at the top of some organizations? Or is the tradition of vehicles looking a certain way (combined with the tradition of LODD's due to MVA's) more important that safety? Look around the world at the research being done with identifying emergency vehicles. They key is to make them look like a checkerboard (greatly simplified of course). And add some slanty lines to the back (again, simplified for humor). Most ambulances in europe have some sort of neon checkerboard painted thing. Same for Australia. Looks silly, but I saw every one.

The worst-designed ambulance in Westchester was delivered last year, of course missing the chevron's on the back in lieu of a catchy slogan. I was wondering if most other agencies are considering the chevron's for new purchases?

[helicopper 1,050]

So if this law is passed you won't know whether you're looking at the front of a firefighters personal vehicle or the back of an emergency vehicle. That makes sense!

If we're going to use blue as emergency lights now, it's time to do away with them as a courtesy light. Make all volunteer responders use green or none at all to distinguish emergency vehicles from the rest.

[OnTheWheel 43]

That's the only true purpose of the coloed lights on POVs, other than Chiefs using their POVs (if there are any of those left)

If I had a blue light after I got out as chief, it wasn't for too long. I still have the card, but haven't had a blue light in years, and don't miss it a bit.

And that brings up a good point, how many people actually have cards???

And maybe we should starts a 0 tolerance for blue lights county wide, enforce the law to the letter, then we can avoid conversations like "this guy has two, this truck has them rear facing etc". Sometimes its better leaving well enough alone and be thankfull for what you have.

[Bnechis 3,961]

My other question - if a FD apparatus decides to add blue warning lights to improve it's visibility, should the PD be expected to enforce the law and order those lights to be removed?

The real issue is how can a fire administrator allow the dept. to violate the law. If joe citizen drives into the back of a stopped fire truck with a blue light flashing the lawers are going to say its the FD's fault, since they broke the law.

[Bnechis 3,961]

i agree. it appears after many years of observing them that they dont work, people dont move and they just seem to create problems.

The biggest problem I've seen is the young members putting $1,000's into a light show on a car that barely runs, then doing mach 9 to get to automatic alarms.

How many POV colored lights have saved a life this year?

How many accidents have they caused

I don't understand what the big deal is having them as courtsey lights and as apparatus warning lights. The law says that the bule is a courtsey light in POV's therefore it has no actual bearing as it would on the back of the apparatus. My point is that they might as well just let them be used as courtsey lights and as warning lights.

Because the law says:

15 NYCRR 44.4

N.Y. Comp. Codes R. & Regs. tit. 15, § 44.4

(h) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(1) of this section, a blue or green light may not be affixed to a vehicle which is entitled to have red lights affixed and one or more red lights are so affixed.

(a) (1) says police vehicles.

Don't know if that would pass inspection or not, but just pop an LED blue light (clear when off) on there, and that might do it.

15 NYCRR 44.4

N.Y. Comp. Codes R. & Regs. tit. 15, § 44.4

(k)(6) Such light must consist of a lamp with a blue or green lens and not an uncolored lens with a blue or green bulb, except that a roof-mounted dome unit which does not include a lens, must consist of a blue or green dome and not an uncolored dome with a blue or green bulb.

[abaduck 123]

I will say that I do know of one way that blue lights are effective. When approaching a fire scene I have turned on my light and fire police or a regular pfficer has moved a barricade or a car for me .

Yes, that's one. They're a little more useful than that:

1. They're useful if, as occasionally happens, we end up using POVs to close a road.

2. Once parked near the scene, they increase visibility and decrease vulnerability, IMHO.

3. They do occasionally work as advertised, in terms of getting slow-moving vehicles to move over.

4. They also serve to identify bad driving by members 'I saw this a****** firefighter...'.

For general responding to calls, I would agree with ALS - they're mostly as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike. I wouldn't cry a river if they were abolished.

Here's an idea which... I dunno, what do people think? Some states I know give FF POVs considerably more than courtesy lights; they're given pretty much the same privileges as any other emergency vehicles when running lights & sirens. So for NY, how about doing this: abolish blue courtesy lights, but allow FFs *who have completed EVOC or similar AND are passed to drive department vehicles* to use blue/red/white lights & sirens on their POVs, with the same privileges as any other emergency vehicle. How does that sound? Gets rid of the two biggest problem with blue lights - young inexperienced guys driving like yahoos, and Joe Public not knowing or caring how to respond to blue-light vehicles - whilst still giving appropriate privileges to the more dedicated and experienced members of the FD, who can (hopefully!) be trusted to use them appropriately.

Just an idea...

Mike

[OnTheWheel 43]

Here's an idea which... I dunno, what do people think? Some states I know give FF POVs considerably more than courtesy lights; they're given pretty much the same privileges as any other emergency vehicles when running lights & sirens. So for NY, how about doing this: abolish blue courtesy lights, but allow FFs *who have completed EVOC or similar AND are passed to drive department vehicles* to use blue/red/white lights & sirens on their POVs, with the same privileges as any other emergency vehicle. How does that sound? Gets rid of the two biggest problem with blue lights - young inexperienced guys driving like yahoos, and Joe Public not knowing or caring how to respond to blue-light vehicles - whilst still giving appropriate privileges to the more dedicated and experienced members of the FD, who can (hopefully!) be trusted to use them appropriately.

Just an idea...

Mike

I think your car insurance might go up considerably if youre now using your vehicle as an "emergency vehicle", it would have to be classified as such if you were given the privilage of running lights and sirens and people were required to yield. Its a problem as it is now with trucks and POVs responding, when I train new people I tell them, when the whistle blows find somewhere to pull over. Blue lights do draw attention to you and John Q does make comments and asks why we dont give tickets to vollys for driving the way they do while responding to alarms.

[Reliance 29]

I think your car insurance might go up considerably if youre now using your vehicle as an "emergency vehicle", it would have to be classified as such if you were given the privilage of running lights and sirens and people were required to yield. Its a problem as it is now with trucks and POVs responding, when I train new people I tell them, when the whistle blows find somewhere to pull over. Blue lights do draw attention to you and John Q does make comments and asks why we dont give tickets to vollys for driving the way they do while responding to alarms.

In Nova Scotia the only ones allowed lights and sirens on their POV is the Chief & Deputy Chief. Blue lights are only allowed to be used on Police vehicles.

Also your insurance rate will go up considerably.

[Guest]

ONE BLUE LIGHT!!!

The V&T states 1....count them, 1 blue light may be affixed to a motor vehicle. Countless times we see a vehicle belonging to a volunteer going down the road with more lights affixed than the emergency equipment they are following. If I were a cop I would right these people a ticket every time!!! When I was a volunteer, I never owned one. I would hold my helmet out the window and the firepolice would giveme scene access or wave me through traffic. I think you shouldn't be able to use a blue/green light until you are nearing the fire/EMS scene. A blue light sitting at a traffic light or stop sign causes people unneeded distraction to already congested roads. I say get rid of them for personal vehicles and add them to ALL emergency vehicles.

Straight from NYS V&T LAW:

4. Blue Light. One blue light may be affixed to any motor vehicle owned by a volunteer member of

a fire department or on a motor vehicle owned by a member of such person's family residing in the

same household or by a business enterprise in which such person has a proprietary interest or by

which he is employed, provided such volunteer fireman has been authorized in writing to so affix a

blue light by the chief of the fire department or company of which he is a member, which

authorization shall be subject to revocation at any time by the chief who issued the same or his

successor in office. Such blue light may be displayed by such volunteer fireman on such a vehicle

only when engaged in an emergency operation.

5. Green Light. One green light may be affixed to any motor vehicle owned by a member of a

volunteer ambulance service, or on a motor vehicle owned by a member of such person's family, or by

a business enterprise in which such person has a proprietary interest or by which he is employed,

provided such member has been authorized in writing to so affix a green light by the chief officer of

such service as designated by the members thereof. Such green light may be displayed by such

member of a volunteer ambulance service only when engaged in an emergency operation.

[MoFire390 118]

i am just not understanding the issue here. when we went through FF1 and any of our EMS classes weren't we told that safty is our number 1 priority?? first comes ours then comes the patient or where ever else we are taking care of? of PD is going to enforce the laws with the vol. then they need to start treating everyone equal. take care of the tow trucks,snow plows, cable/telephone trucks, ect. if PD doesn't fallow the law why should we?

[DaRock98 76]

I agree with the blue light bringing attention to your car. I will never understand the people who sit at red lights with the blue light going to me it makes no sense what so ever! I also found myself driving much faster with the blue light on. I decided to take my light off my car for that reason and for the fact the no one gets out of my way anyway! During the day its hard for other drivers to even see it. Now that I don't have it on my car I find I still get to the firehouse in the same amount of time I was and I am driving much slower and realized that if God forbid I do get into an accident it's even more of a reason for people to blame the fire department. If I miss the truck OH WELL Ill make the second one the is no reason to be driving like a maniac to a call you get 5 times a week for people smoking in the bathroom.

[helicopper 1,050]

i am just not understanding the issue here. when we went through FF1 and any of our EMS classes weren't we told that safty is our number 1 priority?? first comes ours then comes the patient or where ever else we are taking care of? of PD is going to enforce the laws with the vol. then they need to start treating everyone equal. take care of the tow trucks,snow plows, cable/telephone trucks, ect. if PD doesn't fallow the law why should we?

Two wrongs don't make a right. Be thankful the laws are not strictly enforced or there would be a lot of unhappy people out there. Why should we? Because you're setting an example for people as a first responder.

Also, great points as usual, bnechis!

[Bnechis 3,961]

I would hold my helmet out the window and the firepolice would giveme scene access or wave me through traffic. I think you shouldn't be able to use a blue/green light until you are nearing the fire/EMS scene.

Should anyone with a blue light or a helmet be allowed thru? What happened to accountability?

I've seen sceens (while working EMS) where 5 or 6 depts. had members on sceen, but no mutual aid was requested. Looked like they put there gear on and just decided "I'm needed and want to play".

After 9/11 to even get into the area you had to show NYPD & then MP's at seperate road blocks that you should even be in the area, and that was a mile away. At one point they changed the passes and the MP's would not allow the FDNY Commissioner to pass, in his city official car. Granted this was a bigger event than most will ever see.

[Remember585 815]

The real issue is how can a fire administrator allow the dept. to violate the law. If joe citizen drives into the back of a stopped fire truck with a blue light flashing the lawers are going to say its the FD's fault, since they broke the law.

I'm a Chief and I do not condone the use of the blues based on the law. That is why I feel it is well beyond time for the law to be amended to our benefit. You guys run a lot of calls on I95 and I am sure you may benefit from the addition of blue warning lights on your apparatus too. People are so used to seeing red and amber that blue actually grabs their attention. Hopefully we can find a resolution to this soon.