Reading Smoke and Scene Size Up

[firemoose827 324]

Everyone take a look at this video and than tell us what you saw. Read the smoke, describe the fire behaviors, lets start a discussion here about scene size-up and reading both smoke and fire behaviors.

Keep it clean and constructive.

Would anyone have done anything differently or additionally? What type of construction is this? What are the safety issues with this type of construction and how will it affect the fire behavior?

[DCJPells 29]

First frames show white smoke pushing through openings and then it appears that the Firefighters opened something. This looks like side C of the structure. White smoke pushing can indicate fire at a distance from that location and possibly free burning.

Next clips shown from A-B corner looking down A side shows smoke pushing getting darker and at the top of the windows and doors of the structure/ Looks like ordinary construction, possible older but cannot determine roof construction. Looks like a cockloft area above a single story. Does not appear to be 2 floors.

Note the yellowish tingeing developing (Not good). Smoke continues to push greater but still remains at the top of the doors and windows. (00:45 mins.) Fire is not visible. This can indicate the fire in the upper areas for the structure or remote from the location.

02:07. Heavy pushing through an opening and also note the smoke has dropped down in the doorway.

02:35. Fire breaks through the roof but not visible in the windows or doorways. Note decrease in smoke pushing now that it is vented through the roof. Up high in the doors and windows on side A.

Fire visible on A side in frame at 03:00 and flashes in that space. Hose stream ineffective on the fire load.

I would say the indications were the fire started in the ceiling space in the middle of the building and flashover happened after breaking through the roof and ceiling collapse due to the extreme buildup.

[x134 46]

It reminds me of a fire down on Acadamy street in the City of Poughkeepsie about 4 years ago. Same type conditions but the Poughkeepsie fire was at night. There was a heavy fire condition in one store in the rear, with some of the same type smoke coming from the building. Then all of the sudden there was a flash in each store coming from high in the ceiling. Very very violent and then the smoke went black again. Some brothers were still in the building at that time, all got out with minor injuries.The building involved was a strip mall type, 4 or 5 stores. The stores in that building were a medical supply store, a speed shop, t-shirt printing store, shoe repair store, and a car stereo shop.

Edited March 31, 2008 by x134

[antiquefirelt 994]

It looks like this was a loser from the start (at least the start of the video). Commercial building with heavy smoke conditions, numerous cracks and holes in a brick wall pushing smoke. It looks like the FD might have started an interior attack, given the placement of a PPV fan, unless they were trying to gets this over with faster! They may have pushed in and hit some fire early causing the white smoke with little velocity, but toss in the PPV fan and a void space and you have a recipe for rapid fire development, as it seemed to turn fairly fast. This could have been a grease fire in the duct work, that escaped into the cockloft (looks like a Cafe by the name?) Or a typical fire in the rear storage area that breaches the ceiling.

:15-30 - interesting how the white smoke coming from the #1 side is light and drops to the ground, again indicating that it may have been cooled by a sprinkler (not too liklely) or hose streams.

:45- Side #1 white smoke has changed to billowing brownish gray smoke that quickly rises and has decent velocity. Hot fire taking hold of the interior.

3:00- fire lights up space toward the right of the original fire area (in the 1-2 corner space). Looks like it found some new fuel and lit off.

3:10- looks like an 1 3/4" or 1 1/2" line on 30 degree fog! Talk about out gunned! This was clearly a 2.5" fire from the start of the video. Too many FD's "always" pull the preconnect or won't drop it upon pulling out to get the big line.

3:45- Someone says, "I didn't think it was going to do that...at least not on this end" Really, you didn't? I hope you're not a FD employee.

5:20- now we have two 1 3/4" lines while one man stretches the 2.5". An ugly stretch at that, but we all have them days.

I'd have liked to see some 2.5" smoothbores and/or portable guns on the sidewalk . Better yet would be a couple of tower ladders operating at street level, but alas it looks like a West Coast Seattle area fire where towers are few.

[firemoose827 324]

Excellent size-ups! Keep them coming.

My first thought when I saw the flashover was a deep seated fire in the cockloft as well. Interesting smoke patterns initially though, so I thought I would share it with all of you.

Keep going...

[Guest]

I am unsure of staffing but I noticed 4 seperate units that I could count in the video. I am unsrue about life safety concerns at this particular building but it seems there were none. That being said, the first thing that concerns me is regardless of the color of the smoke in the beginning it was pressurized smoke and pushing through cracks in the building. I can see why they didnt seem to have any interior crews due to the condition of the building. I cant say that I saw many exterior crews either though.LOL

I noticed that in the beginning they were changing out bottles so I assuming that they went inside, or they could be from the vent crew. I saw no attempts to put water on the fire for the first 4 or so minutes in the video and they had to start shooting this video a few minutes into the incident as they already had water supplies established. Then they run (4) 1 3/4" handlines. This is bothersome because they had two members on each line so I am unsure as to why there were no 2 1/2" lines put in place. I cant stand the whole 1 3/4 master stream B.S. that we continue to see time and time again in these videos. There is no reason other than overhaul for a 1 3/4" line to come off the truck at a commercial building. They had no monitors setup and do they have a ladder company or at least mutual aid ladder companies to assist with elevated master streams?

[Guest Dept 10]

This could be any town USA old town taxpayer would have to agree on fire starting in the center of this building because of the cooling effect of the smoke,one can see the yellow and brown tint in the smoke indicating the wood in the cockloft is cooking real good. two minutes into this video you hear the first of many flashovers you see the fire finaly break through the roof 2:30 in the video. would have to say that they have been on scene for at least 15 to 20 minutes they were changing bottles in the begining of the video. also noticed that after the first flash you didnt see any fire in the store front windows but i sure heard it flash,this makes me think that its a good possiabily that there are two ceilings a lot of building above the windows cant all be parapit wall. old buiding like this probley started out with a 12ft ceiling through the years with renovations and try to save on heat cost droped it lower could also exsplain why this got away from them, walk in the door what is the first thing you do check the ceiling right, might not have seen anything but above shes taking off. I am not pro PPF all i have seen them do is burn down buildings. from the video it looks like they are way short on manpower might be why it looks like the roof was never cut. I hope that comment that was made was not a officer of the FD because you could see this coming from the very begining of this video just reading the smoke. any suspicion of fire in a flat roof building you must send a crew to the roof right away you can tell a hole lot more as to what is going on. have to agree on the poor selection of hose size even after the hole building is taking off they are still holding on the 1 3/4 why? 2 1/2 is flaked out charge it and get more! could write a novel of rambalings ill stop for now.

Edited April 1, 2008 by Dept 10

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Obvious right from the start of the video there was a well advanced fire in the cockloft. Smoke pushing from cracks in the mortar joints under pressure, and mainly concentrated in the upper regions of the store. 1 story commercials "Tax Payers" immeadiate roof operations. Cut holes A.S.A.P. I didnt see any indication of roof operatons whatsoever, no ground ladders or aerials visible in the video. That was a Tower Ladder job right from the get go. Set the bucket up right on the sidewalk and flow copious amounts of water directly into the cockloft. Very predictable outcome based on the amount of smoke and fire in the video, and the tactics implemented to combat it.

[abaduck 123]

Would anyone have done anything differently or additionally? What type of construction is this? What are the safety issues with this type of construction and how will it affect the fire behavior?

Well I was a probie until a month ago but I'll have a hack at it, make a fool of myself...

1. As others have said, I have no idea why the 2.5" was still on the hosebed at the start of the video...

2. I don't know what their ventilation strategy was, but... this is a kinda mini strip-mall place? Should some truckies have been making a defensive trench cut further down the row for if/when things go pear-shaped? The blurb says they lost virtually an entire block...

3. It's a type 3 ordinary construction, with a truss roof (*). Safetywise I'd think about... the roof construction, heavy equipment on the roof, the possibility of hidden renovations (e.g. that truss roof, steel truss concrete floors) which could completely alter the hazards, parapets coming down, the nature of the occupancy/contents, and of course the amount of space above the ceilings and how it communicates...

( (*) - "every roof is a truss until proved otherwise"? )

[Guest Dept 10]

dont think that the roof is truss but you may have some heavy timber suports.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

I highly doubt that is a truss roof. That is a typical taxpayer not a strip mall. Not a bad idea to think about a trench somewhere down the line, but with what looks like limited manpower probably not going to be feasible. Some well placed large vent holes may have localized this fire and permitted an extinguishing effort with the use of large caliber streams.

[Guest Dept 10]

moosecfd236 do you have any inside info on this fire or is it something you just came across, a lot of good points were made here and i keep trying to figure out how did they get caught with their pants down and give them some benifit of a doubt and not write them off as total idiots.

[firemoose827 324]

moosecfd236 do you have any inside info on this fire or is it something you just came across, a lot of good points were made here and i keep trying to figure out how did they get caught with their pants down and give them some benifit of a doubt and not write them off as total idiots.

Dept10, I found it on a firefighting training video website, it was labeled as a "Scene Size-up" video that was good for drills. It had a little blurb after the video, but other than that thats all I know about it.

I just wanted to make everyone think and come up with some size-ups and maybe spark a good discussion about size-up, which I hope I did!

Also, I am moosecfd368

Abaduck, you made a good suggestion with the trench cut, its probably what I would have done almost immediately, followed by inspection holes to attempt to locate the fire and cut a decent size vent hole as close as I could get it.

Definately called for 2 1/2" attack lines, maybe even a quick blitz attack with the deck gun to start things off.

How about truck placement? Aren't they too close to the building for this fire? Looked like the smoke was pumping through cracks and holes in the mortar and bricks on side 2 like mentioned earlier, so I wouldnt feel comfortable with positioning the units that close. Anyone else?

[Guest Dept 10]

moosecfd368 sorry not paying attention to my typing

• must agree with the statement on truck placement when the fire broke out of the cockloft and into the store front it looked like their engine took some heat damage for sure never mind being in the colapse zone and not leaving any room for any ladder or tower, engines carry a multitude of hose whats one or two more lengths to leave access to the front of the building or maybe those preconects wouldnt make it in the stores and the would have to pull from the bed and geewiz maybe grab a 2 1/2"

[jack10562 414]

I was going to comment on apparatus placement, I bet the paint job on that rig took a hit.

Also, we can't determine what the total fuel load is based on occupancy. I did see one auto supply store, probably lots of aerosol and flammable sprays and other chemicals.

Once it goes through the roof, you can hear multiple POPS or muffled explosions, right until the end of the clip.

[abaduck 123]

I highly doubt that is a truss roof. That is a typical taxpayer not a strip mall.

Oh I doubt it *really* is a truss either - I was thinking more of mindset, you never know what might have been done with renovations at some point, my thinking was, until someone has pulled the ceiling and actually seen the construction, you should be alert to the possibility of a concealed truss - http://tinyurl.com/3ccomm

Mike

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

How deep do you guys think these buildings are? The reason I ask is because I keep hearing about a trench cut. These buildings are 50-75 feet deep. That means you need to cut 100-150 feet of roof 3 feet wide, not very practical on a taxpayer with limited manpower. A trench is most effective on an H type M.D. when trying to prevent fire spread from one wing to another. It is placed in close proximity of the opposite throat to limit the space of cutting. Proper roof operations at this fire would be several large vent holes. This fire has a strong hold on the cockloft, there is basicly fire everywhere, no real need for inspection holes. If you are not sure where to cut, cut in the rear of the store, that way all the fire, super heated gasses, and smoke are pushed away from the engine and out the hole as the line moves in.

[gss131 212]

while this was still a defensive job (minus the tower ladder) at 5:31 you see 2 guys decide to go interior with an 1 3/4, the other 2 guys drop their line, and i dont even think anyone realized the other 2 were inside without backup

[firemoose827 324]

How deep do you guys think these buildings are? The reason I ask is because I keep hearing about a trench cut. These buildings are 50-75 feet deep. That means you need to cut 100-150 feet of roof 3 feet wide, not very practical on a taxpayer with limited manpower. A trench is most effective on an H type M.D. when trying to prevent fire spread from one wing to another. It is placed in close proximity of the opposite throat to limit the space of cutting. Proper roof operations at this fire would be several large vent holes. This fire has a strong hold on the cockloft, there is basicly fire everywhere, no real need for inspection holes. If you are not sure where to cut, cut in the rear of the store, that way all the fire, super heated gasses, and smoke are pushed away from the engine and out the hole as the line moves in.

The reason I brought up trench cuts was for more of a warning as to fire spread. I was taught that a trench cut can be placed in between the involved portion of a strip mall and the uninvolved portion so you know when the fire has reached your trench cut, allowing you to reposition your resources and attempt to contain it from spreading any further. Am I correct at all in this thinking? I do not get the chance to use trench cuts all that often, and can only remember my training from a while ago, so if I am wrong please tell me!

We also learned the trench cut was used to prevent fire spread from one building to another where the buildings share a common cockloft which is what I assumed this to be. But I couldnt realy gauge the dimensions of the building from the video, how did you figure out the dimensions? Just curious and wish to learn more about this style of ventilation so anything you can share would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Moose

[Guest]

If the buildings have a common cockloft the fire is going to spread throughout the cockloft area faster than you can complete the trench cut. As Paul said, there is a lot of cutting involved there. It's gonna take more than 1 saw, and certainly more than one set of saw blades.

I have read that a far more practical way to judge fire spread is to force entry into a store several stores from the one on fire, and pull some of the ceiling to get an idea of conditions in the cockloft.

Judging dimensions just takes practice. Drive around your district, and get the lay of the land. Try estimating the dimensions of a building as you pull up in front of it, then get out with a tape measure and physically measure it. I use the "sheet of plywood" trick, where I know pretty well how much space a 4'x8' sheet of plywood uses, and will look at a building and estimate how many sheets would be needed to cover a dimension. I am sure there are other tricks out there as well.

[firemoose827 324]

If the buildings have a common cockloft the fire is going to spread throughout the cockloft area faster than you can complete the trench cut. As Paul said, there is a lot of cutting involved there. It's gonna take more than 1 saw, and certainly more than one set of saw blades.

I have read that a far more practical way to judge fire spread is to force entry into a store several stores from the one on fire, and pull some of the ceiling to get an idea of conditions in the cockloft.

Judging dimensions just takes practice. Drive around your district, and get the lay of the land. Try estimating the dimensions of a building as you pull up in front of it, then get out with a tape measure and physically measure it. I use the "sheet of plywood" trick, where I know pretty well how much space a 4'x8' sheet of plywood uses, and will look at a building and estimate how many sheets would be needed to cover a dimension. I am sure there are other tricks out there as well.

Excellent idea! I have used the length of hose. I think of how many 50' lengths of hose it would take to cover the side of the building and make a rough guestimate of the building length and width based on that.

Good points though and I thank you for sharing them!

Moose

[ny10570 745]

If you've got a lot of taxpayer or a long strip mall thats still uninvolved you have a chance at an effective trench cut. But you need to give yourself enough space that you'll get the cut done before the fire can get to you. It really only comes into play if you're writting off the involved stores and most likely the next uninvolved store. Like others have pointed out, it takes a lot of time and probably a saw change or two to get it done.

[Guest FFNick]

I think Paul hit it on the head - can the trench, do your typical vertical vent, and make the holes larger if you have to. Too much time and resources are needed for the trench here, and how far from the fire occupancy would you have to go in order to have the time to complete the trench - the last occupancy? Not worth it in my thinking. Get into the occupancies next to the fire occupancy, and check the ceiling - keep going down the line away from the occupancy of origin until you are ahead of the fire, and then hit it with 2 1/2 streams.

The trench works well in the "H" OMDs as said earlier, but this is even after you've done traditional vertical vent tactics. If I remember right, there was a WNYF last year(?) that covered this.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

This has been a great post by Moose and a great discussion by the brothers. We can all share and learn alot from one another when we keep the discussion constructive. As was pointed out by Sqd 47 try to get into some of the exposures and open the ceilings to check on fire spread. If that particular exposure has fire in the ceiling already go onto the next one. A neat trick I learned from the brothers in Detroit was to operate a line directly into the cockloft from inside an univolved exposure. They call this the Dutchtown technique, where they will pull ceilings in a clear exposure, climb on some furniture or use a small ladder, and actually operate the line from inside the cocloft. It sounds a bit hairy but they are able to attack the fire head on and cover a larger area side to side. As far as estimating the dimensions of an occupancy it comes from experience, knowledge of building construction,and getting out into your area. As far as the trench goes its primary use is to stop fire from extening into an uninvolved portion of your fire. As was stated by FF Nick you are basically writing off anything up until your trench. When done in NYC a line is ordered to the roof and placed on the univolved side of the fire to insure the fire does not cross the trench.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Abaduck, you made a good suggestion with the trench cut, its probably what I would have done almost immediately, followed by inspection holes to attempt to locate the fire and cut a decent size vent hole as close as I could get it.

Wrong order.

If you cut the trench 1st how do you know where to cut it may already be past you and if not the trench will draw the fire, then you will lose the trench and the rest of the building.

Vent hole 1st. This will draw the fire towards the hole. Its ok to procede to the next step if the roof has self vented.

2nd inspection holes to determine where to cut the trench. use either a plung cut or a small triangle (3 plunges of the blade) just enough to see if you have fire, hvy or light smoke.

3rd cut the trench. (this building, with this understaffed crew will never finish in time).

[abaduck 123]

Wrong order.

If you cut the trench 1st how do you know where to cut it may already be past you and if not the trench will draw the fire, then you will lose the trench and the rest of the building.

Vent hole 1st. This will draw the fire towards the hole. Its ok to procede to the next step if the roof has self vented.

2nd inspection holes to determine where to cut the trench. use either a plung cut or a small triangle (3 plunges of the blade) just enough to see if you have fire, hvy or light smoke.

3rd cut the trench. (this building, with this understaffed crew will never finish in time).

All good points, don't disagree with any of them, and I'd echo Paul J. in that this has been a useful discussion - I'm learning! Clearly you need to know where to make the trench - if it is in fact an appropriate tactic and you have the manpower to carry it out - but the inspection tactics might be decided by the time of day perhaps? If daytime, it's perhaps faster (and better - gives a more complete view?) to assess conditions in the cockloft by getting in there from the ceiling of hopefully-uninvolved units? If at night and everything is locked up tighter than a... tight thing, then roof inspection holes would be faster - then once you know where you're going to make your stand, you can make the trench, and do forcible entry (cutting shutter doors or whatever) on the appropriate unit(s)?

Mike

[Guest Dept 10]

The thermal Imager is a great tool for the roof team when available. Llast taxpayer fire we had, the roof team vented over the fire room, which they said was easy to find with the camera. The fire was held to that room even though the doors were starting to fail. Once the vent was started, all fire went up the vent. This was a room and contents fire just starting its way into the cockloft. Like anything else one needs to drill with this.

[firemoose827 324]

We have a lot of good discussion on the ventilation aspect of it, but I have not seen too many posts on the truck placement, or any continued discussion on the handline selection and placement.

With the truck parked directly in front of the fire building, ( I feel to be dangerous, but hey, since they are there...) why didnt they blitz the fire with the deck gun? Drain the tank into the fire with the deck gun while establishing a hydrant connection, than switch to duel 2 1/2" lines to attack it.

I didnt see a ladder either, they could have positioned one at the end of the building ( uninvolved end) but I couldnt see it.

Just curious to see what everyones thoughts were on these topics as well.

Good Discussion so far, thanks!!!

Moose