Can we call a moratorium on the paid vs. volunteer nonsense?

[jcoppola 52]

Just an idea, can the paid vs. volunteer arguing end any time soon? It seems that many good topics are getting infected with this never-ending argument about it and going totally south. The way I see it, all of this crying about alleged censorship would not even be an issue if the "I am better than you" stuff was left out of the threads.

I for one am tired of it, and it is making me lose interest in a website that I really enjoy visiting on a regular basis. I will, however, press on.

Joe C.

[ryefd192 2]

I completely agree. We all do the same job, and yes some of us get paid for it and thats awesome; but there is no reason to fight over that.

[DaRock98 76]

Just an idea, can the paid vs. volunteer arguing end any time soon? It seems that many good topics are getting infected with this never-ending argument about it and going totally south. The way I see it, all of this crying about alleged censorship would not even be an issue if the "I am better than you" stuff was left out of the threads.

I for one am tired of it, and it is making me lose interest in a website that I really enjoy visiting on a regular basis. I will, however, press on.

Joe C.

I couldn't say it any better myself, and no I am not crying b/c I'm a vollie and I can't take the bashing anyone who knows me can vouch for that. I am a vollie and I am damn proud of it. I love what I do and thats why I do it, isn't that the reason that all of us do what we do? Can't we all just get along??

[pd125 0]

I couldn't say it any better myself, and no I am not crying b/c I'm a vollie and I can't take the bashing anyone who knows me can vouch for that. I am a vollie and I am damn proud of it. I love what I do and thats why I do it, isn't that the reason that all of us do what we do? Can't we all just get along??

Works for me!!

[DOC22 1]

I could not have said it any better, either! This is something that has gone on long enough! This horse ha been dead for SO long, there REALLY is NO sense in beating it an further.

[Goose 188]

As long as fire departments and ambulance corps go 3 and 4 and 5 dispatches and response times are upwards of 15 minutes there will have to be a discussion of alternatives. And that will always include weighing the pros and cons of paid/combination departments/agencies and their all volunteer counterparts. In my eyes, it would defeat the purpose of this very forum if we didn't discuss the issue when applicable.

When the issue has to be discussed, it needs to be frank, respectful (that doesn't mean sugarcoating the facts) and thoughtful by all.

Edited March 26, 2008 by Goose

[jcoppola 52]

As long as fire departments and ambulance corps go 3 and 4 and 5 dispatches and response times are upwards of 15 minutes there will have to be a discussion of alternatives. And that will always include weighing the pros and cons of paid/combination departments/agencies and their all volunteer counterparts. In my eyes, it would defeat the purpose of this very forum if we didn't discuss the issue when applicable.

When the issue has to be discussed, it needs to be frank, respectful (that doesn't mean sugarcoating the facts) and thoughtful by all.

All very well and good, but that is apparently not possible here.

Joe

[turk182 37]

As long as fire departments and ambulance corps go 3 and 4 and 5 dispatches and response times are upwards of 15 minutes there will have to be a discussion of alternatives. And that will always include weighing the pros and cons of paid/combination departments/agencies and their all volunteer counterparts. In my eyes, it would defeat the purpose of this very forum if we didn't discuss the issue when applicable.

When the issue has to be discussed, it needs to be frank, respectful (that doesn't mean sugarcoating the facts) and thoughtful by all.

Very well put. While I agree the issue could be handled better. As long as people have passion about what they do it will continue to be a heated debate. There should be no reason for personal attacks, at the same time people should be allowed to express there opinion. If you do not agree with other people it is your right to express your opinion. To say we should sweep a very real issue under the carpet is just plain wrong. If you don't like the way a topic is going stop reading it and do not post in it, the topic will die quick if it is ignored.

[helicopper 1,050]

As long as fire departments and ambulance corps go 3 and 4 and 5 dispatches and response times are upwards of 15 minutes there will have to be a discussion of alternatives. And that will always include weighing the pros and cons of paid/combination departments/agencies and their all volunteer counterparts. In my eyes, it would defeat the purpose of this very forum if we didn't discuss the issue when applicable.

When the issue has to be discussed, it needs to be frank, respectful (that doesn't mean sugarcoating the facts) and thoughtful by all.

While I wholeheartedly agree with JCoppola, Goose raises valid points as well. We SHOULD be able to intelligently and dispassionately discuss the issues without becoming emotional or taking it personally. Unfortunately, some are beyond discussing such things without immediately getting defensive which invariably creates the distractions in the threads that we've all had to endure lately.

Sometimes the truth hurts - whether you get paid for what you do or not. We should still be able to discuss and debate the issues without it becoming personal or argumentative. I think it is possible to continue these discussions we just have to stick to the issues!

[Guest]

Joe, I agree with you on this one. I have not and do not spend a great deal of times in the forums but recent dialog on other subjects demonstrate how quickly the discussions fall into paid vs volly. It seems that some like to stir the pot by asking coy or insidious questions while their real motive is create the very controversy that you are trying to stop.

Although many here agree with you I am afraid that those responsible for starting the fires will continue. I'm not medically qualified to determine why some have a need in their lives to degrade, demean or minimize the efforts of others, but I suspect their behavior comes from some personal shortcomings or insecurities that we cant fix through dialog in the forums.

[helicopper 1,050]

Joe, I agree with you on this one. I have not and do not spend a great deal of times in the forums but recent dialog on other subjects demonstrate how quickly the discussions fall into paid vs volly. It seems that some like to stir the pot by asking coy or insidious questions while their real motive is create the very controversy that you are trying to stop.

Although many here agree with you I am afraid that those responsible for starting the fires will continue. I'm not medically qualified to determine why some have a need in their lives to degrade, demean or minimize the efforts of others, but I suspect their behavior comes from some personal shortcomings or insecurities that we cant fix through dialog in the forums.

Is asking why a response time is 17 minutes coy or insidious? Is questioning response time stirring the pot?

Come on, there are times that these questions have to be asked and there are very real issues in all our services that need to be addressed. If nobody asks the questions, how will we ever arrive at strategies for improvement?

Would it have been less offensive if the questions were posed by a fellow volunteer or a non-FD person instead of a career one?

Issues are issues, regardless of the make-up of the agencies involved.

Frankly, I think this post smacks of a personal smite on another member.

[AFS1970 504]

What really stirs up this subject, and it is something that is 100% totally controlable by us as posters, are the ones that follow the legitimate questions. I have not read the thread that this one is about yet, so I will make up a hypothetical one.

Someone posts about an incident handled by a department, one with a long response time.

Someone else questions the response time.

Discussion ensues.

Almost always someone who wasn't yet involed will post one of two things:

Your's just saying that because you hate (either Career or Volunteer)

or

Oh no, lets not let this turn into a Career vs. Volunteer issue

Maybe the way to keep a lid on this, is to not make a legitimate question into this age old argument, by making posts like that which do nothing to further the conversation. Lets just discuss each issue on it's own merritts and not go looking for conspiracies, that may or may not exist. We should all realize that for the most part, if someone has signed up as a member of a forum, they are willing to discuss the issues and in most cases not looking for a fight. If people are looking to start fights, that is a fairly easy fix for the moderators. The best thing we can do is not take the bait, and not give them the fight they want.

[firemoose827 324]

I think that most of the topics in this forum are great topics, and I learn something new from them every day and enjoy talking to different people from different places. I feel these topics get out of hand by a few cocky individuals who forget that we are all the same people inside, we all have the desire to help people, and they treat others like they are beneath them. That's how I think things get started here. But I'm all for discussing topics without getting into paid vs. vollie issues, as long as people can treat each other with respect, regardless who you are.

Just thought I would share that to remind us all who we are.

Stay Safe

Moose

[mikelouf2 0]

paid or not paid who cares we all are here to do the same job save people lives

[ajsbear 11]

You know the Paid vs Volunteer issue is as old as the hills. It's been around long before most of you were even thinking of becoming FF's or EMS. It'll be around long after we're all gone. The answer of you want quicker response, hire more paid has been said by some and when you think about it, it both makes sense but is also rediculous as well. All departments, municipalities face budget problems today. If money were no object go ahead and replace everyone. But that won't happen. Have Vollys outlived their usefulness? Yes in some areas. Mt Vernon just had too many alarms and the problem. After they did away with the vollys the city really didn't do anythnig to replace them. Up in Putnam and further north where the call volume is under 200 a year the tax base could not afford them. The guys who are screaming one way or the other need to take a step back. Yes you want more manpower but can it be affordable? Whats the cost of bringing any one of the paid departments up to NFPA standards? Think of what a FF 1st grade, with vacation time, benefits, sick time, etc cost and figure just one man per shift. Now add to bring each rig up. Whos going to pay? Get realistic. In 10 years my taxes have tripled. I'm not going to pay for it. How many paid guys live in their district? Of that who owns a home and pays taxes? Think of how much you can pay above what you pay now. Training? In the perfect world everyone would have all the training they need. Get over it, its not a perfect world. How many of you guys work 2 jobs and a spouse that works as well? All I know is I want to spend time with my kids and they with me. We all have the same problems, making ends meet and making the most of our time. It is about time we all learned we need to get along. Lets get better saftey standards we can live with, safety bail out ropes, better lighting at highway scenes, more bottles so we can wear a pack during overhaul, The list can go on and on. Work together like the theme of this site. We're our own worst enemy. If we all got together and marched on city hall in MV do you think the Mayor would notice that our FDMV brothers had the support of every FF in Westchester? It would speak very loudly, the newspapers and other media would notice as well. It's time to have one voice, we're all firefighters.

[Guest]

Honestly, I think creating this thread will just stir up the pot even more in this topic or possibly in a new topic in the long run. But yes I agree with the Paul Combs cartoon that moose posted. It shouldnt matter....well maybe one thing in there I have my own opinions about .

Edited March 26, 2008 by NoFearFD

[ex-commish 490]

Is asking why a response time is 17 minutes coy or insidious? Is questioning response time stirring the pot?

In my opinion...no. I have read some very objectable points made about the volunteer fire service. I myself have been very critical about the volunteer fire service and I have been a volunteer for alomst 27 years. In a perfect world every firehouse would be filled 24-7 with full crews on scene in less than 4 minutes but we do not live in a perfect world and I doubt there will be major changes in the near future. Our belived state is in a severe budget crisis. Aid to local cities is on the chooping block. Not to single Yonkers out but recently thier mayor stated 800 city employees may get laid off which includes all services. I hope that that never happens there or anywhere but we are facing harsh times and I think we all need to be more concerned about improving our organizations instead of worrying about who say's what on here. I have yet to see any personal attack towards anyone on here.

[ajsbear 11]

Andy-----The perfect world is everyones Fantasy. Who can afford it?

[shac 7313 0]

i have to agree with jcoppola, your remarks are well said i feel vol vs paid thing is hurting this website!!!!

i am vollie and proud of it. but have many friends who are paid firefighters.i do feel talking about it on

this site but there are members who like to bash other on this site. for this i think this very bad and

has to stop.????

[firecapt32 282]

as long as no one gets personal and things are on a level playing field, we should be able to discuess anything to do with the fire service on this site.

Resonse time--manpower-training-equipment are all in the loop. constructive dialog is important to the fire service. it moves us foward.

opinions are also a good thing just as long as they are opinions and not bashing. Personal feelings and personal attacks should not be tolerated. but as humans we are all allowed to vent once in a while. just as we are allowed to make mistakes--just as long as we learn from them and dont repeat them.

Having said all the pompus sh*t --keep the fourm open and honest-- back things up with facts and figures--dont take everything as a challange, have some fun learn how others think respect each other. We just might learn things that help the fire service.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Mt Vernon just had too many alarms and the problem. After they did away with the vollys the city really didn't do anythnig to replace them.

Lets look at ths one a little different. In the early 1980's MVFD's union kept complaining they did not have enough manpower and needed more. MV's Mayor (may have been Blackwood at the time) kept saying they had plenty. Look at the Daily Argus (MV paper owned by gannet) and every fire scene showed dozens of firefighters infront of the building. The union complained for years that except for the 1 or 2 MPO's the rest were volunteers and they were not inside fighting the fire. The mayor never was moved by this argument. Now I knew a handful of volunteers in MV that were interior but I saw a lot standing outside (I worked on MV Amb 1) at the time. The union finally convinced the city to provide new "safer" helmets to the volunteers, these helmets were yellow (not black) and it became more obvious that there were lots of yellow helmets outside. Shortly after that is when the numbers of volunteers drop off drimatically. THe city never made up the numbers.

Whats the cost of bringing any one of the paid departments up to NFPA standards? Think of what a FF 1st grade, with vacation time, benefits, sick time, etc cost and figure just one man per shift. Now add to bring each rig up. Whos going to pay? Get realistic. In 10 years my taxes have tripled. I'm not going to pay for it.

You are assuming that the only cost to fire protection is the cost you've listed above.

The cost of fire protection includes:

Municipal water system is #1

Construction (including fire protection systems) is #2

Insurance is #3

FD Budget comes next. and while career depts. cost more, they may reduce #3 more than the cost of the FD bill.

Let us not forget VFD's cost $ as well. some (not many) spending more than career depts.

How many paid guys live in their district? Of that who owns a home and pays taxes? Think of how much you can pay above what you pay now.

I live in my 100% career district. (it went 100% paid in 1927 after the Chamber of Commerce potitioned the City that it would be cheaper than the VFD. And they switch within 1 year.

I own my home and pay taxes. My portion for the schools is over $5,000 but my cost for the FD is $176 per year. Thats for a 100% career dept. with an ISO PPC of 2. If we had an ISO PPC of 9 (which 40% of the FD's in NYS have) my home owners insurance would go up by about $750. So $176 is a bargan. If we added the additional manpower to fully meet NFPA 1710 my tax would go up by about $35/yr. Our ISO rate would go to PPC 1 (but in NYS private homeowners dont get credit for this improvement) but 1,000's of busnisess and multiple dwellings would get an additional 8% insurance reduction.

Training? In the perfect world everyone would have all the training they need. Get over it, its not a perfect world. How many of you guys work 2 jobs and a spouse that works as well? All I know is I want to spend time with my kids and they with me. We all have the same problems, making ends meet and making the most of our time. It is about time we all learned we need to get along. Lets get better saftey standards we can live with, safety bail out ropes, better lighting at highway scenes, more bottles so we can wear a pack during overhaul, The list can go on and on.

Yes its difficult to find the time but the better safety standards include more training! You want bailout ropes....the standard requires initial and annual training. The law has required those bottles since the the late 1970's and was reissued and directed to all FD's in NYS on Jan 8 1998. 10 years ago the law required this. The most important safety issue is training!!!!

If we all got together and marched on city hall in MV do you think the Mayor would notice that our FDMV brothers had the support of every FF in Westchester? It would speak very loudly, the newspapers and other media would notice as well. It's time to have one voice, we're all firefighters.

I remember when MV, NR, Yonkers, Eastchester and other FF's marched on MV City hall and it did nothing. The Mayors (In the past, I do not know this one) could care less about the FF's in MV or in Westchester, They only care about the VOTERS who support them. THe media noticed, but again, made no difference.

Since we should not be making this a paid vs. vol issue. Right after we march on MV City Hall we should go to every community in Westchester and march on City hall or the fire dist. meeting and protest if they don't have enough manning or cant get a rig on the road.

[Guest]

All very well and good, but that is apparently not possible here.

Joe

I agree with you, Lt. This site is intended to bring out the best in firefighting to make us all better. Betterment could be of a personal nature or departmental nature. And, hopefully it helps us to remember to do what is best for our department and the people who we protect given the economic situation handed to us.

As FDNY Capt. Lee Illepi who's son died in the WTC collapse told me - volunteer fires are as hot as NYFD fires. Point well taken. I believe that this site is intended to be blind when it comes to those who collect a paycheck versus those who don't. It is created as a forum to share our best thinking. People should be encouraged to voice their agreement and disagreement when it comes to topics posted on this site. But only in the interest of developing best thinking and best practices and not to pitch personal prejudices and agendas.

All of this said, we should not be upset when moderators cut the threads when things get out of hand. This keeps the site clean.

[jcoppola 52]

I am sure at some point I will be taking some heat for starting this post, but I don't care. It needed to be said and needs to be done. I am not strictly a volunteer sympathizer as some may feel I am being, as a matter of fact, I better than anyone I know, can shed light on this situation as I am a 23 year life-member of a volunteer department, worked as a paid driver in that department for 3 years and I have 11 years in a 100% career department. Not only that, I teach in departments all over the state. I see first hand the dedication that some of these volunteers have, granted, some of them are finding themselves in the wrong business, but be that as it may, they still donate a huge amount of non-paid personal time to this cause. On the paid side, we are put in positions that make us miss vital family times and confinement to a firehouse for long periods of time. Many paid members wish to better their skills and take courses on thier own time without compensation having to get their own time off. We all do good things, help people, get up at odd hours, miss family meals and holidays. There are inherent problems with response times when there are no members at a volunteer house, we all know that and deal with it, thats the way it is. Staffing levels have nothing to do with us as "worker bees", that is handled at much higher levels, we just deal with alll the crap that flows downhill. There is one thing we all have in common, we all will figure out what to do when it hits the fan. In the heat of battle, the fire doesen't care if you are doing the job on your own time or being paid for it.

JVC

[yfd910 8]

No way!!

I think the bashing, ball breaking and comparisons make most of the topics on here fun to read and follow!!

It can add to idea exchange and give insight into what the job is all about.

As Get the Roof said in another topic, "3/4's of you wouldn't last at the kitchen table at the end of the shift."

(the Nancy Boy line was one of the BEST lines I think I ever read here!!)

The rest of you wouldn't make it through the day at most of the firehouses I've worked at.

You have to have thick skin in this business......there's no crying in Firefighting.....

And I am VERY against the editing of posts by moderators.

They should contact the person who made the post and give them a chance to retract/edit their own posts instead of taking it upon themselves to edit/delete.

That's censorship and not what free speech is about.

And I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Everyone wants to be a paid Firefighter. Period.

There isn't one Volunteer who would turn down a paid job in Anytown, U.S.A.

(How many of you saw Yonkers FD's recent job announcement in the Journal News and filled out applications or wished they had a Yonkers address?)

OK, so now this post will get edited too, right??

[SageVigiles 1,194]

When will this end?

[jcoppola 52]

And I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Everyone wants to be a paid Firefighter. Period.

There isn't one Volunteer who would turn down a paid job in Anytown, U.S.A.

(How many of you saw Yonkers FD's recent job announcement in the Journal News and filled out applications or wished they had a Yonkers address?)

OK, so now this post will get edited too, right??

Please, get over yourself...I know plenty of people who are volunteers who have such awesome jobs that they NEVER would want mine...teach a few classes in towns like New Canaan and Greenwich, CT and see if some of those guys want our piddly salaries...Again, I speak from experience and tone down the drama about your kitchen table, it is a bit over the top. There are too many people here who know the deal (including me) about firehouse antics.

[x635 4,066]

I would like to call for a moratorium on all the EGOS! That's the real problem. I think that is the issue with many. As I have experienced over the past year, I think that more firefighters are concerned with themselves then they are with the public they serve, especially in Westchester. Everyone has someone and something to complain about and blame, yet no one wants to accept responsibility, accept their mistakes or shortcomings, and initiate change. It's just going to go 'round 'round in circles, tradition, egos styming progress.

Then, you got the ego maniacs who love to stir the pot and cause trouble with no real interest in the topic at hand, and cry when they get called out on it. Those are the people here who are making up lies about this forum, including false claims of "censorship", for exactly the reason described in the previous sentence. They never contact a moderator with their concerns first before posting, because they know they have NOTHING to back up their claims.

It's funny, when you ask these people to provide specfic instances of when they were censored, they can't. And when they can, when there post has been deleted, it's 100% of the time because of a blatent violation of the rules. And then these clowns blame US for THEIR ignorance! It's almost comical, they create their own drama! The moderators have been instructed to be VERY, VERY strict starting now with these drama queens.

I'm convinced things are NEVER going to change. The few of us who TRULY CARE about the public we serve and are truly GOOD PEOPLE are in the minority, the rest are in it for themselves. After the events of the past year that I have experienced, that has taught me that "brotherhood" really doesn't exist in Westchester and the surrounding area. If it did, we wouldn't treat each other the way we do on this forum.

BTW, New Terms Of Service for this forum...coming soon! With added ZERO TOLERANCE for egos! ZERO TOLERANCE FOR HARRASMENT OF STAFF, AND ZERO TOLERANCE FOR THREADS CREATED TO SPECIFICALLY BASH THIS FORUM!

As for all the bashing and criticism and other discussion of the sites this past week, I'm sick of it, it's burning me out. I'm locking this thread. I don't want to hear anything from any member until I want to. I'm going to come up with some sort of complaint system. Until then, if you have a problem with something, contact a moderator. If you want to use this forum for what it's intended for, then get out of this thread, and stop watching this uneccesary and unproductive drama.

ENOUGH! And don't PM me- email me at my email address which is x635@EMTBravo.com. It's easier and quicker for me to reply. BUT, I don't want to hear anything about this post or issue. What I said is how I feel, and it's not changing. In the end, the members don't run this site, myself and the staff do. We give the members plenty of input, but as this past week has shown, sometimes it's not a good thing. I'm sick of people biting the hand that feeds them, so to speak.

THREAD LOCKED!