Refusing A Dive Team

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I couldn't agree more with this statement. I have never seen a productive post from this guy. All his posts seem to be designed to stir the pot. He seems to take alot of stuff that goes on here a little too personal too. I am waiting for him to actually follow through on his "threat" to leave.

I also agree with this portion of the post. I would hope that anyone in command at the scene would have to common sense to use the resources available to him. As long as they are properly trained and equipped. The thought that a properly trained and outfitted team close to the incident would not be used for a rescue is a bit asinine.

As for the PD take on the crime scene aspect that OneEye mentioned, I know that our dive rescue one class specifically covered crime scenes and evidence recovery. I completely understand why some PD's would only want their divers in the water, and have been on calls where this has happened. I'm just not clear on whether the PD divers recieve different training pertaining to underwater evidence recovery, or if it is just their general police training and the fact that they are sworn police officers. I'm thinking that it probably has to do with chain of custody and that sort of thing.

Jay we took probably the same Dive Rescue course on underwater evidence recovery. Take no offense to this but just because you took the course doesn't mean that a PD is going to let you collect their evidence. I would tend to think that just on the basis of legality of the crime scene they would like to keep it in the family sort a speak. Now with that being said, if you are the only qualified Agency that can collect such evidence and do it in a professional manner I don't have a problem with that.

[Monty 35]

That all depends on the day. Honestly it is hard to say. I would say a VFD or Paid FD would be able to get there faster if they have a designated team assigned to do that. PD is tougher as nobody that I know of except NYPD has a Dive Team ready to go at a moments notice.

I thought Mount Pleasant or Greenburgh PD had a dive team?

As to the question, thinking about risk vs. reward how long does it take to switch from rescue to recovery? Maybe a smart thing to do is to have an SOP so that dive team(s) are dispatched on the initial dispatch, or at least by the FD on acknowledgment of the dispatch. Even if the department had a dive team, what's the likelihood of them making a save?

Going to the extreme, thinking of FDNY AFAIK all rescue companies are trained divers. How many saves have they made? How long is it going to take them to get to the scene of a car in the water?

Now I suppose if you were talking about Fire Boats ... might be a bit more likely to make a save or two.

[TL2L31 8]

Why dont we ask the simple question? What departments have dive teams? Lets get some info and unless we are all complete morons, we can figure it out for ourselves.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I thought Mount Pleasant or Greenburgh PD had a dive team?

As to the question, thinking about risk vs. reward how long does it take to switch from rescue to recovery? Maybe a smart thing to do is to have an SOP so that dive team(s) are dispatched on the initial dispatch, or at least by the FD on acknowledgment of the dispatch. Even if the department had a dive team, what's the likelihood of them making a save?

Going to the extreme, thinking of FDNY AFAIK all rescue companies are trained divers. How many saves have they made? How long is it going to take them to get to the scene of a car in the water?

Now I suppose if you were talking about Fire Boats ... might be a bit more likely to make a save or two.

Mt Pleasant PD does have a Dive Team. But we all don't work the same shifts. Unfortunaltely we don't just hang around waiting for a call. That would be nice but not justified by any means.

As I stated before. A call comes in for a "Mission". We find out details on the phone IE: how long has subject or object been in the water? If it is EVIDENCE RECOVERY then we tell the Agency that we will be there that day depending on time. We don't dive at night for any reason. Or the next day with hopefully a full crew. I guess the same goes for a Person(s) in the water.

[TimesUp 148]

I agree that the urgency is gone if it is determined to be a recovery. But as I asked before how long would it take to get a Volunteer dive team to a scene in lower Westchester if its not a recovery.

Which dept's below 287 have them and how long would it take to arrive. If the time to respond is to long they might not be a good option if its a rescue. But it would be good to know either way. Is there a minimum amount of time that dive teams have to assemble and then arrive?

[jayhalsey 6]

Jay we took probably the same Dive Rescue course on underwater evidence recovery. Take no offense to this but just because you took the course doesn't mean that a PD is going to let you collect their evidence. I would tend to think that just on the basis of legality of the crime scene they would like to keep it in the family sort a speak. Now with that being said, if you are the only qualified Agency that can collect such evidence and do it in a professional manner I don't have a problem with that.

Thats pretty much what i figured. Was there more to your "underwater evidence recovery" training than just DR1?

[GAW6 66]

Unfortunaltely we don't just hang around waiting for a call. That would be nice but not justified by any means.

And that would be because you all have a life outside of your job, hence why the majority of volunteer FDs and VACs do not want to sit in their HQs waiting for a call.

[JJB531 652]

[quote name='ONEEYEDMIC' date='Mar 27 2008, 08:30 AM' post='130148'

And that would be because you all have a life outside of your job, hence why the majority of volunteer FDs and VACs do not want to sit in their HQs waiting for a call.

That has absolutely nothing to do with it. The lack of justification is because how often do Dive Teams actually get activated? Especially in Westchester County. I would say a busy dive team is requested a dozen times a year. Oneeyed, how many times a year does your dive team get requests for service? So now you are going to pay a police officer his/her salary to sit around 200-something tours a year to only be called upon a dozen times for their services as a diver? Financially it's not feasible for the town. Last time I checked, there is a much better chance of a VAC or VFD being requested for their services then a specialized service such as a dive team.

Edited March 27, 2008 by JJB531

[FirNaTine 370]

While on this topic, how many career Depts. if any, require their ffs. to know how to swim, never mind be a certified diver. Personally, I think it should be part of the agility test. I know it was apart of NRFD's agility yrs. ago.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Unfortunaltely we don't just hang around waiting for a call. That would be nice but not justified by any means.

And that would be because you all have a life outside of your job, hence why the majority of volunteer FDs and VACs do not want to sit in their HQs waiting for a call.

We do have lives outside out the job. But when we get called we show up. No Mutual Aid. You think that I would sit around and do it for FREE? What I was trying to say is they aren't going to pay us to just sit in a room and wait to be called. We do our normal Patrol function or whatever it is and if we get called we get called. Being one of really only 3 PD DIVE TEAMS and that is probably not even right we should get called. The problem is Agencies not knowing who to call. I have suggested that 60 Control keep us on a list but I am not sure if that even happens. It took 4 days for NYSP to call us about the possible jumper off the TZB the other day. We are 1 of only a few Depts in the STATE with Side Scan Sonar so we really wish were called more. Hopefully in the future. NYSP Divers are scattered all over the State. Croton on Hudson PD has a team. I hear that WCDPS just got new gear but I Am not sure how many are trained. You would figure that some of the City Jobs on the Water would have them. NEW RO has a harbor and I think are working on Divers. YPD doesn't. They did.

I understand that you don't want to sit in the building and wait for a call especially if you don't get paid for it. So get paid for it and sit in the building.

I agree 100% JJB. I can't tell you how much we were called out last year but it was alot. More than usual I would say. The floods in Mamaroneck helped out along with some other crimes in the County.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Unfortunaltely we don't just hang around waiting for a call. That would be nice but not justified by any means.

And that would be because you all have a life outside of your job, hence why the majority of volunteer FDs and VACs do not want to sit in their HQs waiting for a call.

The above post was part of mine and part of GAW6. I can't figure out how to do multiple quotes because I keep getting errors or something.

Edited March 27, 2008 by moosecfd368
fixed quotes for him.

[GAW6 66]

I understand that you don't want to sit in the building and wait for a call especially if you don't get paid for it. So get paid for it and sit in the building.

To get paid $10-$12/hour? I don't think so!!! I make 3x that at my job. If the Town wants to pay me $35/hour to sit in the ambulance building everyday and respond to calls, I would do it in a heartbeat! Unfortunately being a paid EMT doesn't pay the bills, therefore I have a very good job from 9-5 and devote many hours on nights, weekends, and even lunch hours being a volunteer because my heart and soul is dedicated to my VAC.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I am not saying that you are not dedicated. Without you, your family and a few others, your VAC would be in the dirt. This post was about Dive Teams. I stated that we don't just sit around and wait. Maybe I should have said while we were working. Do you really think that any of us would do that on our OFF TIME FOR FREE. No way.

This Topic is now off Topic. I will only respond to DIVE TEAM posts from now on.

I am starting to get annoyed. How come it can't be a simple thing with these quotes. Used to work now I have no idea what I have to fix quote.

[firemoose827 324]

Ok.....GROUP HUG!!! Come on, give moose some luvin!!!

Hey Oneeye, try giving the helpdesk a shot, or talk directly to one of our members associates, they maybe able to help you better than what I sent you in PM! I think I ended up frustrating you even more! Heck....I frustrated myself trying to explain it to you!

Everyone return to the topic of "Dive Teams" and their response criteria please.

My only experience with Dive Teams was my Junior Firefighting days in Northport. They had a Dive Team that trained monthly in the harbor and in the village pool, but 99.99% of their responses were for recovery purposes. I didnt think they could mobilize and respond fast enough to effect rescues, but than again, like already mentioned, unless you are a dedicated team that is staffed 24/7 and dispatched on the initial alarm your chances at rescues are slim.

But, if you have the training and experience, and act as a unit, Im sure that any team can do the job if called for in a timely manner.

[Monty 35]

Watching the news the other night saw this incident where a car drove in to the Newtown Creek in Brooklyn. My impression was that the driver freed himself, and was extricated from the water by the FD/PD. However, it took two hours for them to recover the fatality.

Not that I'm a diver - but makes me think its not worth 'expediting' my response to a car in the water call.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=...&id=6065183

http://www2.nysun.com/article/74343

http://gothamist.com/2008/04/07/car_plunges_int.php Image below is from the gothamist web site

[Monty 35]

Here's another incident - maybe, possibly, hopefully with a better outcome:

Chicago firefighter dive teams get called just prior to starting a training session and are on scene within 4 minutes. Within 3 minutes they found the boy who is now in Hospital.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/907509%...S-boy22.article

The 911 call came in at 2:25 p.m. Friday, as Otto and Davis' helicopter lifted off from a fuel stop at Midway Airport. They were already in scuba gear for a drill. They flew to the harbor and landed at 2:29 p.m, the Fire Department said.

Meanwhile, nearly a dozen other Fire Department divers were wrapping up underwater training at a pool near North and Larrabee. They stepped into waiting scuba gear and arrived at the harbor seconds after the helicopter, said Cmdr. Ron Dorneker.

About three minutes elapsed between the divers' arrival and the recovery of the boy, said Lt. Kevin Nitsche, another diver who responded. "I was thrilled we found him as fast as we did," Nitsche said.

Now, they are pulling for Lazar's recovery. Some estimate he was under water about 15 minutes. Firefighters aren't sure, because they don't know how long it took for someone to call 911.

At the request of Lazar's family, Children's Memorial Hospital declined to discuss his condition Monday. The child's grandmother, Draga Bojanovic, said Sunday he showed signs of improvement.

[ckroll 101]

Has anyone considered a "Snorkel Team"? Except under special circumstances, a dive team will be a recovery team. With limited training a novice can pull on a wet suit, don a mask and snorkel, and go down 15 ft for a couple of minutes. That's long enough, if preplanned, to hook a bumper or axle and have a truck winch the car out. I wouldn't do that in place of a dive team, but while waiting for one, it might be a time saving option.

I recall an ice rescue years ago where a large gentleman went through while ice fishing. Spouse and I [ both fire fighters and high angle trained] responded to the scene, had our climbing gear and a collapsible ladder in the car. Safely roped in and with other FF's on shore I scooted out on the ladder close enough to toss him another rope while he was still able to tie it around himself. They landed the fish and had him cleaned by the time the truck with the dry suits got there. That wouldn't work in all situations, but in this case, it got a person out of frigid water 15 minutes faster and before he became hypothermic and at no time was it unsafe.

EMS talks about the perfectly packaged corpse. Level of rescue response needs to be tailored to timely action. 'What can we do that is OSHA safe?' and 'What can we do in the time we have?' may have different answers. Does snorkeling have a place in the fire service?

[JJB531 652]

Has anyone considered a "Snorkel Team"? Except under special circumstances, a dive team will be a recovery team. With limited training a novice can pull on a wet suit, don a mask and snorkel, and go down 15 ft for a couple of minutes. That's long enough, if preplanned, to hook a bumper or axle and have a truck winch the car out. I wouldn't do that in place of a dive team, but while waiting for one, it might be a time saving option.

I recall an ice rescue years ago where a large gentleman went through while ice fishing. Spouse and I [ both fire fighters and high angle trained] responded to the scene, had our climbing gear and a collapsible ladder in the car. Safely roped in and with other FF's on shore I scooted out on the ladder close enough to toss him another rope while he was still able to tie it around himself. They landed the fish and had him cleaned by the time the truck with the dry suits got there. That wouldn't work in all situations, but in this case, it got a person out of frigid water 15 minutes faster and before he became hypothermic and at no time was it unsafe.

EMS talks about the perfectly packaged corpse. Level of rescue response needs to be tailored to timely action. 'What can we do that is OSHA safe?' and 'What can we do in the time we have?' may have different answers. Does snorkeling have a place in the fire service?

The only problem I could see with a "snorkel team" is that we're not talking about water rescues taking place in the pristine water with 70' visibility... we're talking about rescues taking place in stagnant and sometimes possibly polluted bodies of water where you would want a drysuit, very very limited visibility, and numerous potential hazards (i.e. fishing lines, branches, trash, car bodies, etc. etc.) for someone to get entangled in. At least if you get entangled with a SCUBA tank strapped to your back you can still breathe... get entangled with a snorkel and you have a big problem.