Refusing A Dive Team

[Guest]

Let me take a hypothetical situation here.

Let's say you are a career Lt. in a career department on a Rescue. You recieve a report of a car in the water, unknown if people are trapped. Your FD or PD has no dive team or capabilities. Your PD requests the closest dive team, and it is a volunteer FD. Would you refuse the team if you were "anti-volunteer"? Also, if the team was needed, what sort of liability do you open yourself up to in a case like that, especially if it was documented that it was refused in a very unprofessional manner?

[Guest]

Personally, if you have a car into the water and don't know if anyones trapped, I highly doubt any Lt. would refuse the aid of as many dive teams as he could (depending on the size of the body of water), even if he's "anti-volunteer" and it's a volunteer dive team (that's obviously properly qualified).

I would imagine such actions would be selfish and could cost someone their life, and I'm sure that would be the end of that Lt's career.

[OnTheWheel 43]

That Lt should be looking through bars instead of wearing them, no matter the professionalism of his refusal. This cry baby bickering on here is one thing, but when it affects the people we are EXPECTED to protect, wether paid for it or for free, that crosses the line BIG TIME! I would be "that guy" locking up anyone who recklessly endangers anyone, I promise it will be on video so it can be posted here too. Hypothetically of course ;-)

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Wait, are you saying you have video of the incident, or that if you arrested the perp, you would videotape it?

Edited March 26, 2008 by SageVigiles

[abaduck 123]

I'll stick my neck out and say that quite possibly that Lt. wouldn't have any say on which dive team gets summoned, or when. Why? Well... are we dealing with a hazard to life scene, or a potential crime scene? Who makes that call? Who has authority over the scene then? If the PD decide to put divers in the water, the divers will be in the water. If there's no rescue to be made, and the career dept. have no dive rescue/recovery capability, they may as well pick up and go home.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Or, if the jurisdiction in question has a PD with an ESU, they may be part of the rescue effort... Hypothetically speaking, I wouldn't know whether that jurisdiction has one.

[ny10570 745]

ZeerR, stop me if I'm going too far, but it seems like there may be an actual incident in which a volunteer dept refused mutual aid from a paid dept with a rescue. Either way its wrong. There's no need to try and bait people into a career/volley fight. if I'm wrong, I'm sorry and I rescind this post.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

No, the hypothetical situation being posed is the opposite. A paid rescue refused mutual aid from a volunteer dive team, unless I'm misunderstanding

Edited March 26, 2008 by SageVigiles

[TimesUp 148]

For me the closest dive team isn't volunteer. But if it was how long would it take for them to assemble and arrive? I'm guessing anywhere from a couple of minutes to???? Can anybody help me with this?

[KCRD 6]

No, the hypothetical situation being posed is the opposite. A paid rescue refused mutual aid from a volunteer dive team, unless I'm misunderstanding

Can the "hypothetical" depts in question also be posted? If this is a true "hypothetical" incident than it shouldn't matter.

[texastom791 31]

i think that if you refused the dive team and someone dies your gonna lose your job but why would you if you didn't know wether or not their were victims i'd say just play it safe and let the vollies handle it even if you are anti-vollie guy it isn't worht losing your job because you get paid and you think your better then them .

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I don't know, I didn't post the scenario.

[ex-commish 490]

For me the closest dive team isn't volunteer. But if it was how long would it take for them to assemble and arrive? I'm guessing anywhere from a couple of minutes to???? Can anybody help me with this?

Wouldn't anydive team take some time to moblize?

[DOC22 1]

Let me take a hypothetical situation here.

Let's say you are a career Lt. in a career department on a Rescue. You recieve a report of a car in the water, unknown if people are trapped. Your FD or PD has no dive team or capabilities. Your PD requests the closest dive team, and it is a volunteer FD. Would you refuse the team if you were "anti-volunteer"? Also, if the team was needed, what sort of liability do you open yourself up to in a case like that, especially if it was documented that it was refused in a very unprofessional manner?

This is the initial post. I think the hypothesis is pretty clear. OntheWheel made an excellent post in response.

Nuff said.

[jcoppola 52]

OH MY GOD PEOPLE...can we stop the paid vs. volly nonsense already? This constant arguing about paid vs. volly is honestly driving me away from this site, and I am a Moderator and really don't want to stop participating, but it seems like every fire service topic turns into a rant about who is better and who calls whom or who doesen't call whom.

I'll address the initial question, even though my dept. has a dive team. Considering I am a paid LT. on a paid department, I feel I am qualified to answer the "hypothetical" question. If I am responding to a car in the water and I determine a SCUBA team is warranted, I will make that request to my dispatcher while en-route. I honestly could not care less if they send me a team that receives compensation or one that receives none. All I am concerned with is that the responding agency is manned, qualified, certified and equipped to do what will be asked of them. This is the case for ALL types of requests for aid, rescue or otherwise. The sticky area with mutual aid to paid departments is if the aiding municipality is responding with manpower that is equal to what they are used to working with. Help is help, there are many variables in all services, thats just the way it is. We need to remember that we all have a job to do. God forbid the public ever knew what goes on behind the scenes with the nonsensical paid vs. volunteer infighting that we have seen here and other places.

I'm done.

[Guest FFNick]

Maybe hypothetically this was alluded to on another thread, which may or may not make it more or less not so hypothetical for you.

Check this thread

Maybe we all should just move on....

Edited March 26, 2008 by FFNick

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I think the point of this thread was made, you're probably right about moving on FFNick.

Edited March 26, 2008 by SageVigiles

[DaRock98 76]

I agree I think it's time to move on. The person that started the other thread likes to stir the pot and then run away and hide. I've seen numerous posts from him and more then one time he had claimed he would no longer post on this site. Don't let the door hit you on your way out! I really don't know why he is still here. Sorry for the rant but I really think the admins and mods are doing a great job but you will always have a few bad seeds no matter how good of a job you do.

Back to the topic at hand I think that this LT. is 110% wrong. I would never refuse the help of anyone as long as they are properly trained,staffed and prepared to do the task at hand. Not only is this LT. putting the public he was sworn to protect at danger but everyone else that is on scene. I would hope one of the police officers on scene did exactly what OntheWheel said he would do.

[ny10570 745]

No, the hypothetical situation being posed is the opposite. A paid rescue refused mutual aid from a volunteer dive team, unless I'm misunderstanding

Read between the lines bro. He is a career ff asking a frigging no brainer. You'd be criminally negligent to deny a needed resource because of volley/paid BS. Traditionally these type of hypothetical questions are posted so the person can come around and point out that "everyone" agrees this wrong behavior yet when "someone" does this at xyz incident no one says a thing. I hope this is clear. I believe he was trying to and successfully got the members of the board to make his point so that when he comes back with the real incident he can "see the volleys are wrong" He may be right, but his method is condescending and immature.

One last question, where in Westchester is there a career dept without a dive team next to volley dept with a dive team?

Edited March 26, 2008 by ny10570

[jack10562 414]

One last question, where in Westchester is there a career dept without a dive team next to volley dept with a dive team?

The correct question would read " where in Westchester is there a career dept without a dive team near a volley dept with a dive team?

In the recent past, say, 6 or 7 years ago, this may have been the case, hypothetically, of course.

[Guest]

I will sidestep the career vs. vollie agenda, and post some of my thoughts about dive teams that will hopefully spark some useful discussion and exchange of ideas.

First and foremost, any IC that is considering deploying a dive team, which is really a specialized rescue discipline, needs to carefully weigh the risks versus rewards of putting that team into operation. Is there truly a chance of rescuing a victim, or is this really a body recovery.

The same analysis needs to be done by the leader of the dive team onsite, before deploying personnel into the water. It is very important for the dive team to have a pre-existing SOG which defines what the team will do, and what the dive team will not do, based on the particular circumstances of the incident. This is paramount so that we do not kill our own people in a misguided attempt to save someone who is beyond saving.

Another issue is the training and qualification of the members of the dive team. Getting a group of guys together who beleive they are all the next Jacques Cousteau and calling themselves a DIVE RESCUE TEAM is laughable.

Public Safety Diving is a technical rescue discipline, and as such, any team formed to operate within that discipline needs extensive initial training, conducted by instructors who understand the special challenges of Public Safety Diving. The team needs specialized equipment. And, the team needs to have regular training to keep skills proficient.

If I knew that a team was responding to my scene that did not have these 3 basic prerequisites, I would turn them around.

[JCESU 20]

Sqd46 hit on many valid points and I agree with him. Diving is arguably one of the most, if not the most, dangerous facet of our jobs. Going on the theory that all the moons are aligned and this is a save not a rescue and services are turned down for reasons that the Cmdr. is not able to articulate would certainly result in civil and most definitely (state/federal)criminal charges. Personally I can't comprehend how this scenario could possibly come to fruition. With different agencies and checks and balances that SHOULD be in place it is not likely that a critical decision such as this would go un-questioned at the scene. Although it is a simple question we are working in the dark as far as the many other details that have to be known.

[helicopper 1,050]

I will sidestep the career vs. vollie agenda, and post some of my thoughts about dive teams that will hopefully spark some useful discussion and exchange of ideas.

First and foremost, any IC that is considering deploying a dive team, which is really a specialized rescue discipline, needs to carefully weigh the risks versus rewards of putting that team into operation. Is there truly a chance of rescuing a victim, or is this really a body recovery.

The same analysis needs to be done by the leader of the dive team onsite, before deploying personnel into the water. It is very important for the dive team to have a pre-existing SOG which defines what the team will do, and what the dive team will not do, based on the particular circumstances of the incident. This is paramount so that we do not kill our own people in a misguided attempt to save someone who is beyond saving.

Another issue is the training and qualification of the members of the dive team. Getting a group of guys together who beleive they are all the next Jacques Cousteau and calling themselves a DIVE RESCUE TEAM is laughable.

Public Safety Diving is a technical rescue discipline, and as such, any team formed to operate within that discipline needs extensive initial training, conducted by instructors who understand the special challenges of Public Safety Diving. The team needs specialized equipment. And, the team needs to have regular training to keep skills proficient.

If I knew that a team was responding to my scene that did not have these 3 basic prerequisites, I would turn them around.

Very well put, Sqd!

The fundamental problem is the self-certification or self-designation of resources - not just locally but nationwide! Resource typing has established standards for many different assets but there is no objective, unbiased review of the things you identify above - specifically training, qualifications, equipment, response time - so anyone can claim to be almost anything. This places an enormous responsibility on the IC and the requesting jurisdiction.

How about we start with an answer to a non-hypothetical question: What is a qualified "dive team"?

[antiquefirelt 994]

We used to operate a Dive Team that was made up of career and a few call firefighters. We basically determined that it was too much to continue with due to the hours of training needed to keep up, and the infrequency of actual rescue incidents. If you look at training deaths, I believe you'll find that deaths per training drill for dive rescue is far higher than any other public safety discipline.

As for the original comment: it would seem truly foolhardy to dismiss any resource you cannot otherwise get in a timely manner. That being said, there is something to be said for the IC being responsible for the actions of anyone coming into his/her scene. i would not allow a "fly-by night" team attempt a rescue if I thought they were a danger to themselves or others.

[Guest]

Very well put, Sqd!

The fundamental problem is the self-certification or self-designation of resources - not just locally but nationwide! Resource typing has established standards for many different assets but there is no objective, unbiased review of the things you identify above - specifically training, qualifications, equipment, response time - so anyone can claim to be almost anything. This places an enormous responsibility on the IC and the requesting jurisdiction.

How about we start with an answer to a non-hypothetical question: What is a qualified "dive team"?

Self-certification or self-designation is a real problem.

In many cases, an agency such as a fire dept. or police dept., or other group of people that find themselves in the business of protecting life and property, realize that they have some members that are scuba divers, and decide they would like to form a dive team.. for any of a number of reasons... which could range from having a history of incidents that could have been resolved better with a dive team, to wanting to have a more rounded department, to thinking that scuba is fun and wouldnt it be neat to be a rescue diver.

So this group of divers, who like all of us want to help those in our community, hash out a plan and they form their team, and now they are ready to go. This team may function for years without mishap, but without getting the best training that is available out there, it is an accident waiting to happen.

I am aware of two training companies that train public safety diving teams nationwide, they are Lifeguard Systems in NY, and Dive Rescue International, in CO. From time to time I have seen smaller companies pop up here and there that offer the training as well, but as far as I can tell they are run by someone who got training from one of the bigger training companies and decided to hang out their own shingle.

The point about training I want to make is this: It is very important to get training from instructors who are well versed in the discipline of Public Safety Diving.

There are divers out there who consider themselves advanced divers with 10 or 20 dives under their belts. Someone with 50 dives under their belt can become a scuba diving instructor, qualified to certify someone else as a scuba diver, who can then get together with some other divers, and call themselves a Dive Rescue Team !!!

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I will sidestep the career vs. vollie agenda, and post some of my thoughts about dive teams that will hopefully spark some useful discussion and exchange of ideas.

First and foremost, any IC that is considering deploying a dive team, which is really a specialized rescue discipline, needs to carefully weigh the risks versus rewards of putting that team into operation. Is there truly a chance of rescuing a victim, or is this really a body recovery.

The same analysis needs to be done by the leader of the dive team onsite, before deploying personnel into the water. It is very important for the dive team to have a pre-existing SOG which defines what the team will do, and what the dive team will not do, based on the particular circumstances of the incident. This is paramount so that we do not kill our own people in a misguided attempt to save someone who is beyond saving.

Another issue is the training and qualification of the members of the dive team. Getting a group of guys together who beleive they are all the next Jacques Cousteau and calling themselves a DIVE RESCUE TEAM is laughable.

Public Safety Diving is a technical rescue discipline, and as such, any team formed to operate within that discipline needs extensive initial training, conducted by instructors who understand the special challenges of Public Safety Diving. The team needs specialized equipment. And, the team needs to have regular training to keep skills proficient.

If I knew that a team was responding to my scene that did not have these 3 basic prerequisites, I would turn them around.

Being a Police Diver I agree with everything that you say. When we get a call most of the time it will be from another Agency. We then have to call out team members and meet to get our gear and stuff together. (We are ready to go all the time with our regular gear, but each scenario is different) IF we can, we send a team member to the scene whether a BOSS or not just to talk to the IC so we can relay any pertinet info back to our other guys. I would have to say 99% of the time, when we get called it is for body recovery or evidence recovery. If that is the situation then it is a CRIME SCENE and no unauthorized personell should be in the area.

This has happened in the past with an PD/FD I am not going to name in West. It was clearly a drowning and possibly suspicious at the time but the PD on scene called in DEPTS with boats and divers and such. When we got there our SGT advised the on scene PD LT that this should be treated as a crime scene. Finally all the FD divers were pulled and they packed their things and left. Not sure if they were mad or not but they had to have understood that they were no longer needed.

Sorry for the ramble. Chances are that the PD will be on scene first right? Then they should be getting all the intel they can to determine if anyone is in the VEH. Sometimes that is not possible. What do you do? How many DEPT's in WEST whether PD or FD, PAID or VOLLEY have a DIVE TEAM ready to go at a moments notice? Prob not that many. The scenario was given then turns into a crime scene till further notice. If there was person in the VEH it then becomes a recovery. If it was teens fooling around by just releasing the EBRAKE and pushing a car into some water, you can maybe turn that into a training dive for any DEPTs that you have responding.

[DaRock98 76]

On average how long does it take to assemble a dive team and get them on the road?

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

On average how long does it take to assemble a dive team and get them on the road?

That all depends on the day. Honestly it is hard to say. I would say a VFD or Paid FD would be able to get there faster if they have a designated team assigned to do that. PD is tougher as nobody that I know of except NYPD has a Dive Team ready to go at a moments notice.

[jayhalsey 6]

I agree I think it's time to move on. The person that started the other thread likes to stir the pot and then run away and hide. I've seen numerous posts from him and more then one time he had claimed he would no longer post on this site. Don't let the door hit you on your way out! I really don't know why he is still here. Sorry for the rant but I really think the admins and mods are doing a great job but you will always have a few bad seeds no matter how good of a job you do.

I couldn't agree more with this statement. I have never seen a productive post from this guy. All his posts seem to be designed to stir the pot. He seems to take alot of stuff that goes on here a little too personal too. I am waiting for him to actually follow through on his "threat" to leave.

Back to the topic at hand I think that this LT. is 110% wrong. I would never refuse the help of anyone as long as they are properly trained,staffed and prepared to do the task at hand. Not only is this LT. putting the public he was sworn to protect at danger but everyone else that is on scene. I would hope one of the police officers on scene did exactly what OntheWheel said he would do.

I also agree with this portion of the post. I would hope that anyone in command at the scene would have to common sense to use the resources available to him. As long as they are properly trained and equipped. The thought that a properly trained and outfitted team close to the incident would not be used for a rescue is a bit asinine.

As for the PD take on the crime scene aspect that OneEye mentioned, I know that our dive rescue one class specifically covered crime scenes and evidence recovery. I completely understand why some PD's would only want their divers in the water, and have been on calls where this has happened. I'm just not clear on whether the PD divers recieve different training pertaining to underwater evidence recovery, or if it is just their general police training and the fact that they are sworn police officers. I'm thinking that it probably has to do with chain of custody and that sort of thing.

[smwells 7]

Real simple, leave your personal preference of Paid/Volley at the door! Do The Job..

If you have qualified personel, use them. It doesn't matter to the person underwater if they get a paycheck or not.., but if the LT makes a decision to not use an available volley resource, it certainly will be affecting thier paycheck.