Taking Westchester County Fire Course Independently??

[x635 4,066]

I was just curious if anybody knew if Westchester County allowed people not currently affiliated with a Fire agency in Westchester to take courses, such as Firefighter I?

I know it is probaly not allowed, but I think that is ridiculous. If I want to take FFI or another type of course, and I'm willing to pay a fee/tution for it, I think that should be allowed. I'd like to take classes that will increase my chances or give me a better foundation at my future career department, but I can't do that in Westchester and I really dont understand why not. If theres room in the class, you're willing to sign a safety waiver/get a physical, and you're willing to pay reasonable tution, then there should be no reason why you cannot take a fire class...just like taking an EMT course or a class at WCC.

There are also (fire) classes that would be beneficial to my EMS job given, but can't take those either w/o a fire affiliation.

[WAS967 97]

There are also (fire) classes that would be beneficial to my EMS job given, but can't take those either w/o a fire affiliation.

Like which? I want to take the Hazmat classes and I know those are open to pretty much any agency, not just fire. I could see maybe EVOC classes and the like (I would love to take one of those).

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

The unfortunate fact is that the FTC is hard pressed for space as it is. There are over two dozen department in the county that have 4 or more members waiting for Fire fighter I and even more waiting for pump ops and EVOC.

If you look around there are a few pvt training agencies that might be able to help you out. But they are in Georgia and Texas. I don't know if there is anything closer.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Not to mention that it may be a insurance issue. The county may not have the appropriate insurance to cover a person that is not affiliated with a fire department. Also, many departments may not give preference to certain training when you will have to attend a career academy anyway. As Commandchief stated, we are doing the best we can to accomodate the departments that need spots for training. Best you can do is join a department, give them what you can, and get the training for free.

[x635 4,066]

I understand WC's limited space for classes and duty's as a public agency. However, as far as ALS's comments go, many career dept's either require or prefer FFI and other classes, and as I mentioned, some would also be beneficial to EMS personel. As far as the joining a department, with what time lol???? But not to worry, there are other Fire Academies in the region that will take non-affiliated persons when space is available. Also, if Westchester accepted tutition payments for non-affiliated students, that would cover some of the course.

IMO, unless the county makes a major, major initiative, they will never be ahead of the game, they will always just trying to catch up. Which is a shame given some of the talent they have working there and some of the potential the place could have.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

X635. I understand where your coming from in regard to time. If anyone understands where your coming from its me.

As far as the discussion of departments taking FF1, I said "may" not a concrete rule. Everything on a resume looks good, but for NY unless you have your "firefighter certification" or 229 as its often referred to, you will have to attend a academy or equivalent training. Some departments require their probies to still do the academy again even if they have achieved the certification.

I also understand what you are saying, however there are several other factors which deal with having someone pay for training. First, if it is a class sponsored by the state, there is no real way to have someone pay for the course, the state doesn't receive money for courses and I do not think they may even have the means to accept it. I have heard of this before and some brass with OFPC had commented that its not possible. So that would limit courses given by those whom can take the money and use it. Second, that would open up every department pulling every which way to get a course that "they will pay for." Now, before anyone loses it, I enjoy and think its appropriate that I teach in a classroom. Not a apparatus bay, a board room, etc.

Look, no matter where you look each training facility has its own unique and specfic problems, even ones that many may seem perfect. Trust this, and I speak as a firefighter on this one, there are many many things that are being attempted or in the works to improve training in this county. Anyone who's been around for quite a while knows things are much much better then they were for years at that facility. Unfortunately because of what I will call stagnant years, some things have to play catch up.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Also on a side note and off this subject a bit. Training is only as good as everyone involved. There are many times where depts. do not show up when they are scheduled, or students are no shows. These do nothing more then frustrate the instructors, whom many are trying their hardest to get as much courses out there that they possibly can and to deliver the material to the utmost of their ability.

[firemn23 8]

Speaking of the training center when are they going to offer upper level classes such as cause and origin and fire behavior. I am sure they are incorporated into firefighter I, but what about everyone that took essentials over 5 years ago that want to be an officer? I thought it was a law that the officers had to determine a cause of a fire. :-k

[Guest alsfirefighter]

First, it is the Chief's responsibility to determine a cause of fire This doesn't mean the Chief has to do that himself, that is where your Investigators come in. In fact it is a better practice being they have hours logged of investigation as well as evidence procedures and interviewing techniques that should hold up in court much better then at the fire officer level. Not that its always needed in cases of obvious cause, case in point a fire where a textbook V pattern is coming out of a single electrical outlet.

In addition, there is no "cause and origin," course. There is fire behavior/arson awareness, which there was talk that it may be done away with, however I believe it is still being offerred. But again this is only a awareness class, and yes that portion is 1. offerred in firefighter 1 curriculum and 2. is in the intermediate curriculum that has been around since 2000. Do not take this the wrong way but fire behavior is not a upper level course, it is basic firefighter knowledge and it seperates the average firefighters from the advanced. The state offers FBAA/Principles of Fire Investigation at Camp Smith. Keep in mind that if its not a outreach program, only specified State Fire Instructors can teach certain courses, and they generally are only offerred at the academy or annex at Camp Smith. I believe the state has offerred it on average twice a year over the past several years and usually once in the spring and once in September. It is very difficult to teach a arson course unless you have the burn pods to do so which are in place at the annex. Take a look at the states website for when the 2005 schedule gets posted, copies of the 2005 catalog are at the training center, camp smith or you can call them to be mailed a copy.

[x635 4,066]

ALS, I understand, but don't neccarily agree with a lot of the way things are done. NYS is very, how do I say it, antique/way behind in their policies and procedures. And NYS/WC should have been training at the FFI level YEARS ago.

As far as the FFI and NYS goes, I'm not interested in a NYS academy.I want the National Certification. Regardless of what you say, there are department (outside of NY) that prefer the FFI certification, even if you have to go through their academy. Every little bit helps. It's very, very competive to get a FF/Medic job in a good department.

If WCFTC was to affiliate in some way with WCC, they could open up a world of new oppurtunities. Maybe WCC, in conjunction with WCFTC, could offer some sort of Firefighter/Fire Science Degree program. I would be willing to make a bet if a program like that was to be done, it would be pretty succesful.....and probaly interest and make it easier for more people in earning an AS. But then again, thats a progressive idea, so it probaly wont happen lol.

As far as the WCFTC goes, it definetly has come a long way. However, I feel Firefighter I, as important as it is, is just a foundation that teaches you the fundementals. Experience and continuing education is where it's at.

And I don't feel like typing anymore, but every FF should have Arson awareness in some form.

Also, ALSFFInstructor, Check your PM's for further insight on my comments....

[Guest alsfirefighter]

635, most of your comments I couldn't agree more. Why is there a seperate addition to take a national certification exam? Why can't instructors at the end of the FF 1 or 2 courses, admin a test that is on a scantron form and count the skills as performed during the class as the skills for the test? This is how Virginia fire training programs issues its firefighter 1 and 2 certifications. Trust me I have several ideas to enhance our image, training and delivery. But it takes time and I am only a instructor. But we have very good leadership who cares, which is big and listens and supports their staff. They are constantly evaluating how to improve things to the best of the ability and system.

Also again, I want to see some more knowledge based classes given, however any that are have to be written by instructors. You know I write articles and have several ideas of what I'd like to do, but finding the time to develop a course, put together a lesson plan and powerpoint does take time. Many instructors are very territorial about releasing something they worked extremely hard on. But hopefully soon myself and a couple other guys want to get a some things out there to break the monotony. Again it takes time, and again, while FF 1 is the foundation, its the foundation that many are crying isn't happening enough, so guess where most resources are going to be put.

[firemn23 8]

Cause and orgin was a course that was offered i believe the last one was about 4 years ago, but at this point the only classes offered are survival (a very much needed course) FFI, and intermediate was just offered for the 2nd or 3rd time this year. I dont believe AVET was offered this summer, all the haz mats are offfered up county, preparing for command was offered once maybe.

I personally would like to see different courses offered. There have been great classes offered recently like the flammable liquids class, and the air bags class that used to run out of general motors. Also a class I would like to see but not sure if it is offered through the state or the county is a fast team class. Dont get me wrong my department does train and trains often but i would also like to get some other classes to.

In another note and should probably go on another thread but what the heck, the MPO course is to be offered in Jan for the first time in over a year and not to my suprise it is already filled. My department tried to sign people up the first day they were able to, how come when a course is that quick to fill up like FFI why can't the county have some kind of system to let more departments be involved in the class instead of being filled by only 6. For example allow 2 maximum from each department. I have taken a many classes where some county departments will have 8 to 10 people enrolled in a class.

Hey Seth if you never left Ardsley you could still take those classes to. And dont foget the Christmas Party is coming soon.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

FAST is offerred once a month at Camp Smith.

Preparing for Command no longer exists being the state has gone to the I-100/200/300. I-100 is a self study offerred online through SEMO and you can print your certificate out when your completed and pass the test. I-100 is a prerequisite to complete the FF 1 course now. AVET will be available, and more being 12 more Westchester instructors will be getting certified to teach it next week. Pump Ops is being addressed, and will hopefully have several more this year. Understand that its not just as simple as throwing out information, if your not proficient at delivering material then many instructors regardless if certified to teach it may not be comfortable and you have to respect that. Any hazmat class, other then ops, generally is given by OFPC hazmat bureau staff, and only they can approve other instructors to teach certain hazmat courses. Again for obvious reasons. Also your Chiefs should have been given info on how registration will be conducted to ease some of the grumblings. See them about this being I'll leave it at that.