Why No Emergency Escape Ladder On Mount Vernon TL-1

[usedtruck 0]

As someone who is on the selling side of the apparatus business, I can tell you that none of those Long Island departments cut out the escape ladders for "monetary reasons". I lived on LI for 35 years and the fire districts out there do not buy on the economy scale.

The Aerialscope is probably the most expensive piece out there. Most of them today are going for well over $950,000 without a pump.

The escape ladder are basically aluminum ground ladder sections with a set of brackets on each boom section. My guess is the total cost of the ladder is less than $ 2,500.

If you are specing a scope, you don't cut out $ 2,500 for the ladder.

Someone can get the specs on the Mt Vernon scope and see if they mention "NFPA compliance". If they do, issue solved.

[x635 4,066]

The escape ladder are basically aluminum ground ladder sections with a set of brackets on each boom section. My guess is the total cost of the ladder is less than $ 2,500.

If you are specing a scope, you don't cut out $ 2,500 for the ladder.

Mount Vernon wanted a 'scope, and a Fire Apparatus consulting firm helped them write the specs so they could get one. A lot of things were cut out from the aerial due to price, such as equipment mounting, bare minimum lighting package, etc. This is a City where the finances are completly corrupt, and I know the specs were bare bones, and that's what the city wanted. I too am shocked they got one. I think Seagrave was the lowest bidder, actually.

Even if the escape ladder was $2,500, that's $2,500 saved for them......firefighter's life safety is not factored in in that City when budgeting. That $2,500 can be better spent lining the pockets of City Officials or some other corrupt use. Sorry if I offended any MVFD Firefighters out there, but from what I've seen over the past few years, that's my opinion.

As far as NFPA compliance, it's a moot point when numerous other things in the department aren't anywhere near NFPA compliant. This is still a high volume, urban career department that runs open-cab jumpseat rigs, former volunteer apparatus that's over 20 years old, housed in mold ridden stations, with sometimes only two guys on an apparatus.

[usedtruck 0]

the NFPA compliance is not a moot point to the manufacturer.

if you order a non-compliant rig, the mfr will make you sign a very clear waiver that says you, as the AHD, Authority Having Jurisdiction, waive the compliance with the standard and are taking responsibility for the unit as a non-compliant piece. Its a real big deal for the mfr because in the event of an accident, everyone is going to ask why the piece was not made to NFPA standards and the mfr will haul out the waiver and say, " we told them and they choose to take the decision in their own hands."

I know all about low budget purchasing, I worked with Mack in the 70's and delivered many rigs to Mt Vernon and Yonkers and all over the county. I'm still guessing that the ladder deal is an NFPA issue, not a money issue, and someone from FDMV can look up the specs and see if the NFPA is mentioned.

I have no doubt about any of the monetary issues brought up, I just doubt the ladder is one of them.

As far as the used vollie rigs, they were NFPA compliant at time of manufacture and thats all that is required. NFPA is not retroactive, although there is a standard under consideration to limit the lifespan of appratus. If that goes through, everyones buying habits will change or almost every department will be non-compliant.

[x635 4,066]

usedfiretrucks, forgot to welcome you to the forum! Thanks for sharing your obviously extensive knowledge with us, it is appreciated and I learned a great deal from your posts on this thread about NFPA...it is confusing!

But, as I was always told, "NFPA is just a reccomendation" (lol)

[SteveOFD 176]

Directly from NFPA 1901 "Annex D" which explained many of the changes to the standards after 1991:

FYI - If this reference is in the "Annex" then it is only an explanation of the actual portion of the Standard. I deal with NFPA Standards in my line of work (i.e. NFPA 70-National Electrical Code & NFPA72-National Fire Alarm Code), and annexes are only to clarify portions of the actual Standard. Annexes are not enforcable.

[Scottyk107 9]

No i'm pretty sure Mt. Vernon opted out because of the money. I believe they said they would add it later when the funds permitted. But Jody or Loftus would know better then I do. I think it was something outrageous like >$8000 as well. The two Ferrara engines are FDNY spec or at leased based on it so i'm interested to as if they are NFPA compliant as well.

[antiquefirelt 994]

But, as I was always told, "NFPA is just a reccomendation" (lol)

This is true enough, though usedfiretrucks has a very valid point in that Fire Apparatus Builders use NFPA 1901 as a liability minimization tool, and rightfully so as it will be brought into court as a National Consensus Standard. We tried to by a non-compliant MM TL and couldn't do it (OK maybe Scope would've but the cost was astronomical). We spent tons of time researching TL's and talking to guys that use them and found that many of the problems were with times we felt were non-mandatory such as compartment light switches. We couldn't get a builder to make a truck without individual compartment light switches that also activate the "open door" warning light in the cab. So, just like so many other NFPA equipment mandates, our guys basically have learned to ignore the compartment ajar warning due to the 85% failure rate of this system. Literally from day one, we've had switches that fail to release. Or how about those great NFPA built in PASS alarms? Ever watch a video of a fireground where the SCBA's are so equipped? Who the hell will ever know if an armed PASS is for real or not? Again, many of these NFPA recommendations are due to "our" lack of discipline. We are our own worse enemy some times.

But again, how many of us bow to the NFPA regulations for apparatus, SCBA, gear, etc. then look the other way when it comes to staffing? Like staffing won't make the job safer? Thank you, I'd just as soon ride an old firetuck with an old wire frame Scott 4.5 and more firemen then on a new NFPA compliant truck with CBRNE SCBA and to few guys to really get the job done right.

[x635 4,066]

The Aerialscope escape ladder does have collapsible handrails (shown in the stowed position here).

Again, I'd MUCH rather look at this than the boom with nothing on top of it!!