Briarcliff fire 3/19/08?

[JFLYNN 681]

I have 2 questions regarding what I read today in the incident alerts for the Briarcliff fire:

1. Is it accurate that units were dispatched for numerous calls to a structure fire and Briarcliff E94 did not BEGIN responding until 17 minutes after the initial dispatch? If so, why?

2. Is it accurate that an order was given to lay 2 1/2" supply line and if so, why? (forgive me, I'm not much of an engine guy)

...remember, "qtip" guys...

[jack10562 414]

E94 is a back-up engine, E93 and E92 are first due.

I wasn't there but the 2-1/2 was probably requested due to the distance from the curb to the involved unit was over 500 feet, and 1-3/4 "apartment-packs" were tied in to a gated wye for attack lines at that point.

[FDVA356 23]

Unless I was hearing wrong, yes this is what I heard. The 2 1/2" supply line I would assume was for a courtyard and possibly gated to stretch the attack lines to fight the origin of fire. I'm not there so I really don't know, and I respect the guys/gals of the Departments operating at this incident, so therefore I would rather not "ARM CHAIR QUARTERBACK".

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Don't mean to sound rude, but I don't think anyone is arm chair quarterbacking. I too would like to know why a company officer would choose to lay in with 2 1/2, because frankly, if there is any benefit to it, I'd like to experiment alittle. Different places do different things for different reasons, obviously, but theres no reason we can't try to share some intellectual wealth here.

[FDVA356 23]

2 1/2" is a good choice for stretches as in court yards or if you have a long stretch and can gate it and feed your attack lines. I also overheard apartment packs being requested, so they probably gated the 2 1/2" and connected the apartment packs to this supply line to allow the reach for these type of calls.

Edited March 20, 2008 by jack10562
Modified ALL CAPS POST

[IzzyEng4 427]

Are you sure that he didn't mean an "attack feeder" aka pumper to the fire hose streach. It seems like a few people might be misunderstanding between a hydrant line and an attack feeder line to a gated wye. I didn't hear the call online, I'm only going by what is being written here.

[FDVA356 23]

I would have to say the 2 1/2" was fed from one of the first due engine companies.

[jack10562 414]

Don't mean to sound rude, but I don't think anyone is arm chair quarterbacking. I too would like to know why a company officer would choose to lay in with 2 1/2, because frankly, if there is any benefit to it, I'd like to experiment alittle. Different places do different things for different reasons, obviously, but theres no reason we can't try to share some intellectual wealth here.

The volume of water available in a 2-1/2 and reduced friction loss is likely why that was done.

Stretching individual hand lines that distance would mean over 1000 feet of 1-3/4 would have needed to be pulled for 2 attack lines. With 175 PSI needed just to cover the friction loss alone, the pump operator would have to supply 275 PSI!

That makes for tough hose handling!

[JohnnyOV 2]

Like Izzy said, are we sure that the 2 and 1/2 wasnt for fire attack and not hydrant lay?

If pulling the 2 and 1/2 was for the initial fire attack due to the size of the fire, praise to the officers and firefighters for pulling then since it is forgotten all too often.

[JFLYNN 681]

E94 is a back-up engine, E93 and E92 are first due.

I wasn't there but the 2-1/2 was probably requested due to the distance from the curb to the involved unit was over 500 feet, and 1-3/4 "apartment-packs" were tied in to a gated wye for attack lines at that point.

What is a "back-up engine" ?

What exactly is the meaning of "first due" as used here? (If there are 2 engines involved, how can they both be considered "first due" ?

[JFLYNN 681]

Unless I was hearing wrong, yes this is what I heard. The 2 1/2" supply line I would assume was for a courtyard and possibly gated to stretch the attack lines to fight the origin of fire. I'm not there so I really don't know, and I respect the guys/gals of the Departments operating at this incident, so therefore I would rather not "ARM CHAIR QUARTERBACK".

What is your definition of "ARM CHAIR QUARTERBACK"?

[Remember585 815]

The order was a little broken, but the 2 1/2" was stretched into the courtyard, which I overheard was close to 500 feet(?) away. The hydrant was hit with 5" LDH. E94 is a "reserve" engine so to speak, and the IC asked for R37 as opposed to E94 as the next thing out of their HQ. From what I heard, E94 wasn't needed, but it was there if it was.

Also, TL40 is OOS.

[jack10562 414]

What is a "back-up engine" ?

What exactly is the meaning of "first due" as used here? (If there are 2 engines involved, how can they both be considered "first due" ?

What that means is both engine companies get dispatched simultaneously on a general alarm.

Whoever gets to the scene first either lays in or hits the hydrant and works.

[Remember585 815]

JFlynn that is a HUGE misconception by so many people - what "First Due" really means.

In this case, E93 is "First Due", E92 is "Second Due".

The FIRST ONE ON SCENE is really "FIRST IN" not "FIRST DUE."

I try explaining that to my own people and they seem to think I am making it up.

[Guest]

Some good observations above here are some facts

- Hydrant hit by first in Engine Company with 5" supply

- Long stretch to apartment door (approx 500ft) required 2-1/2 stretched with two 1-3/4 "apartment-packs" to a gated wye one as an attack line one as a backup line

- fire knocked down quickly...nice work by the BMFD

[bmfd231 3]

Our response protocal is East side first due - E93 & TL40 with E92 as second due. On West side calls E92 & TL40 are first due with E93 second due. TL40 is currently OOS for Maintenance, Ossining ladder was called for primary ladder. A 5" LDH supplied from the hydrant and a 2 1/2 was laid with a wye and two 1 3/4 attack. Fire gutted the kitchen on the first floor apartment.

[jack10562 414]

- fire knocked down quickly...nice work by the BMFD

Agreed!

Thanks, Ron!

Regards to the boys, "over there"

[Guest]

Enough of the Deuce and half comments.

What about the 17 minute response time?

[firemoose827 324]

Enough of the Deuce and half comments.

What about the 17 minute response time?

The 17 minute response time was for their reserve engine...they had 2 engines on scene, and someone already posted that the reserve was not needed at scene, but it was there just in case.

The order was a little broken, but the 2 1/2" was stretched into the courtyard, which I overheard was close to 500 feet(?) away. The hydrant was hit with 5" LDH. E94 is a "reserve" engine so to speak, and the IC asked for R37 as opposed to E94 as the next thing out of their HQ. From what I heard, E94 wasn't needed, but it was there if it was.

Also, TL40 is OOS.

[Guest]

The 17 minute response time was for their reserve engine...they had 2 engines on scene, and someone already posted that the reserve was not needed at scene, but it was there just in case.

Got it!

Whoever posts these incident alerts should be a bit more specific.

Everytime I see an incident alert from up county, all they have is who is responding and who is covering what station and a million different cars and units but no times of who's stretching in, who's venting, who's doing the primary and secondary and so on.

If I wanted to see a list of units, I'll look on the WDES website.

[yfd910 8]

My question is:

What is "re-toned"??

In the Incident Alert, the Alarm time is given at 2005, then Briarcliff is "re-toned" for the working structure fire at 2008!!!.....Why are they being re-toned?

Is it a second alarm?

Or is that like being called again?? Do you wait for someone to confirm it's a fire and play catch up before responding??

"Hey, we really have a fire!! No bull***!!! We need everyone now!! Come on, guys!! I know American Idol just started, hope you have a DVR!!"

I just don't get being re-toned......Do you guys pick and choose what calls to go on based on the type of call, time of day, or whether it's a job or not??

I know all volunteers sacrifice their personal lives to help others, but to have to be re-toned 3 minutes later....well, something is wrong.

Could you imagine what would happen if an entire first alarm in Yonkers had to be called again after 3 minutes??

That's 3 minutes that were lost in fighting that fire. Luckily, no one got hurt.

Forgive me if I have this all wrong, but I'm just reading timestamps and wondering why.............

Edited March 21, 2008 by jack10562
***

[FirNaTine 370]

Briarcliff FD, ever think about streching a 3" line with a gated Y or even a gated manifold? I know of some Depts. that use that set up. More gpm and less friction loss than a 21/2" feed. Just a thought. Sounds like things went well. Good Job!

Edited March 21, 2008 by DOC22

[Guest]

My question is:

What is "re-toned"??

In the Incident Alert, the Alarm time is given at 2005, then Briarcliff is "re-toned" for the working structure fire at 2008!!!.....Why are they being re-toned?

Is it a second alarm?

Or is that like being called again?? Do you wait for someone to confirm it's a fire and play catch up before responding??

"Hey, we really have a fire!! No bull***!!! We need everyone now!! Come on, guys!! I know American Idol just started, hope you have a DVR!!"

I just don't get being re-toned......Do you guys pick and choose what calls to go on based on the type of call, time of day, or whether it's a job or not??

I know all volunteers sacrifice their personal lives to help others, but to have to be re-toned 3 minutes later....well, something is wrong.

Could you imagine what would happen if an entire first alarm in Yonkers had to be called again after 3 minutes??

That's 3 minutes that were lost in fighting that fire. Luckily, no one got hurt.

Forgive me if I have this all wrong, but I'm just reading timestamps and wondering why.............

Joe, they don't bust out the walkers on a 3rd retone at 14

kiddin',

Love ya!! Miss Ya!

[TL2L31 8]

My question is:

What is "re-toned"??

In the Incident Alert, the Alarm time is given at 2005, then Briarcliff is "re-toned" for the working structure fire at 2008!!!.....Why are they being re-toned?

Is it a second alarm?

Or is that like being called again?? Do you wait for someone to confirm it's a fire and play catch up before responding??

"Hey, we really have a fire!! No bull***!!! We need everyone now!! Come on, guys!! I know American Idol just started, hope you have a DVR!!"

I just don't get being re-toned......Do you guys pick and choose what calls to go on based on the type of call, time of day, or whether it's a job or not??

I know all volunteers sacrifice their personal lives to help others, but to have to be re-toned 3 minutes later....well, something is wrong.

Could you imagine what would happen if an entire first alarm in Yonkers had to be called again after 3 minutes??

That's 3 minutes that were lost in fighting that fire. Luckily, no one got hurt.

Forgive me if I have this all wrong, but I'm just reading timestamps and wondering why.............

I listened to this call and it sounded more like an update. Not being in the house, it might take more than 3 minutes to get there.

[yfd910 8]

Joe, they don't bust out the walkers on a 3rd retone at 14

kiddin',

Love ya!! Miss Ya!

HEY!!!!!!!

[jack10562 414]

My question is:

What is "re-toned"??

Is it a second alarm?

Yes. You got it. It is the equivalent of a second alarm being transmitted.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

What that means is both engine companies get dispatched simultaneously on a general alarm.

Whoever gets to the scene first either lays in or hits the hydrant and works.

Is the general the I/C ?

[jack10562 414]

Is the general the I/C ?

No, a "general alarm" is local terminology for an "all-hands" call, versus a single company dispatch.

The I/C is the GRAND POOBAH /exalted leader

[Danger 160]

Briarcliff FD, ever think about streching a 3" line with a gated Y or even a gated manifold? I know of some Depts. that use that set up. More gpm and less friction loss then a 21/2" feed. Just a thought. Sounds like things went well. Good Job!

We use that set up (3" to wye, 2x 1.75"). Also carry 5" to 3x 2.5" manifolds.

[DaRock98 76]

In my dept once the chief or any other rig gets on scene of a working fire they have the job re toned to update all other incoming rigs of what they have.