Update on Stamford Merger

[spin_the_wheel 460]

How about making it an open competitive civil service test but give extra credit to current Volunteers or to residents in the districts that the new FD will cover. This makes the jobs open to all, but alo gives some recognition to Residents and/or volunteers.

[Bnechis 3,961]

How about making it an open competitive civil service test but give extra credit to current Volunteers or to residents in the districts that the new FD will cover. This makes the jobs open to all, but alo gives some recognition to Residents and/or volunteers.

What about any laid off members off SFRD, since the residence of the proposed district already invested in their training?

[spin_the_wheel 460]

What about any laid off members off SFRD, since the residence of the proposed district already invested in their training?

Your right I was just thinking of new spots, and thinking any city f/f's would be reassigned. I would think that the fair way would be for any laid off f/f's to be offered the spots first without a test, but I dont know if that could happen, maybe you would know the laws better then I would.

At the very least extra credit should be given to them as well. Again I am not sure of al the civil service rules, if this did happen and one of the individuals was hired by the new Dept....then a spot became open in the SFRD would they be able to go back to that Dept.? Sometimes first laid off are first re-hired, would taking a spot in the new FD nullify this sort of thing?

Edited June 16, 2010 by spin_the_wheel

[LTNRFD 266]

I was a volunteer in a dept with paid drivers and they had more training than I did, but they were not allowed to go in, so they pulled up stretched a line to the front door and left it there. Then they stood at the pump panel and watched the house burn, until the volunteers showed up. That was 25+ years ago and things have changed.

Barry your info is not correct. When you were a volunteer the "paid staff" only had 6-8 weeks of in house training. That training was to train them how to operate and maintain the apparatus, house duties and to learn the district. If they had more firefighter training then you did it was due to the fact that most were volunteers before being hired. Some took classes on their own time and own expense. They weren't required to have the additional training, but they wanted to know more about the job. This was the exception not the rule.

Since you left the department the "career staff" now receives the same basic training as any other career firefighter in Westchester. They then return to the department for the additional 6-8 weeks of training as mentioned above.

I used the term "paid staff" and then "career staff" on purpose. Back in the day of the "paid staff" they were drivers. They would not give up the drivers/pump operators job to any one (volunteer) for fear of losing their jobs. This was a time when most of the "paid staff" didn't want to fight fires and get dirty. Today is totally different. The "career staff" has the training and the desire to get dirty and fight fires. They are not fearful of allowing a qualified volunteer take over the pumps so the driver can stretch and advance the line. Where this scenario is beneficial it happens. There is no paid-vs-volunteer. It is firefighters working together to get the job done. That is what ALL firefighters, volunteer and career, should be doing. Working together.

[x152 179]

The fact is the Union "supported" the ill concieved and illegal plans of the previous administration and those plans failed. Now under this new Administration a new plan has emerged but unlike the previous one the Union has only limited involvement in the process. This because they have no legal rights to negotiate as they are not the legal Authority Having Jurisdiction and have no personnel working for the fire districts in question. End of story

Pete:

Interesting how well versed you are on the labor history, particularly because you were not part of it.

Also interesting to see your wealth of knowledge with regard to labor relations, union structure, Connecticut Labor Law (MERA), etc.

You speak as if you have extensive knowledge in the complex issues involving labor issues and relations in Stamford? Sadly, I have read not one word of what you have posted with regard to the labor component as being accurate.

As someone who was as forth coming to admit that he would rather get a job at the sacrifice of an existing Stamford career Fire Fighter, perhaps you could be as equally honest as to where your version of the labor facts is coming from.

Not sure if you brought a copy of MERA with you to Afghanistan? Because if you did? I will gladly mail you the actual legal version (as recognized by this State for many years). The copy you must be reading from must have been defective?

Let me know-

Thanks-

[Monty 35]

What about any laid off members off SFRD, since the residence of the proposed district already invested in their training?

The administration currently says that there will be no layoffs.

How many SFRD firefighters are assigned to the volunteer departments currently? I've seen the SRFD Chief say that they are currently understaffed (by about 16 FF's I believe). Maybe the plan is to not fill these spots with new FF's and move the FF's in the volunteer houses back to the city houses.

Maybe that's part of the reason the hiring freeze was extended to the Fire (& Police) Departments.

[FFPCogs 863]

Pete:

Interesting how well versed you are on the labor history, particularly because you were not part of it.

Also interesting to see your wealth of knowledge with regard to labor relations, union structure, Connecticut Labor Law (MERA), etc.

You speak as if you have extensive knowledge in the complex issues involving labor issues and relations in Stamford? Sadly, I have read not one word of what you have posted with regard to the labor component as being accurate.

Anyone who can read a newspaper knows the history of this affair, and anyone who can read the Charter can see that the Union has no authority to dictate what happens in the VFD districts.

As someone who was as forth coming to admit that he would rather get a job at the sacrifice of an existing Stamford career Fire Fighter,.

If you're going to try and disparage me please make sure to put everything in it's full context.

I would take a position yes as is my right. And yes my family comes first just as it does for any other family provider and I don't apologize for that.

As I said before the members of Local 786 chose a course of action or at least the leaders that pursued that course, that that decision may negatively affect those members is not my fault...it is theirs for allowing it to continue. In the end they will have the same right to apply and go through whatever process is determined to gain a position as I will, should they be laid off.

Not sure if you brought a copy of MERA with you to Afghanistan? Because if you did? I will gladly mail you the actual legal version (as recognized by this State for many years). The copy you must be reading from must have been defective?

Let me know-

Thanks-

Please do just PM me for my FPO

I believe the key term here is "on the job". The firefighters that are possibly going to be replaced are truly "on the job". They took a competative written and physical agility test, passed a medical exam, attended a 14 or so week academy and work on engine/truck/rescue companies with a crew and boss. What these future "career" positions are is nothing short of scab positions that are going to be handed out to friends of the right people, some of whom could not pass a third grade spelling test. It is an absolute disgrace to not only Stamford but the fire service as a whole and it certainly screams to me "well I couldn't get on the job anywhere through the front door, so let me just sneek in through the back". Horrible and sickening!!!

Jason this particular point really stuck out as I read it. Just curious here but tell me do you feel that your union brothers and now brother SFRD personnel that came from the VFDs are "scabs" that never "took a competative written and physical agility test, passed a medical exam, attended a 14 or so week academy and work on engine/truck/rescue companies with a crew and boss" or that maybe they "couldn't get on the job anywhere through the front door, so let me just sneek in through the back", since after all the majority of them were hired by their former volunteer Chiefs only?

If not why the double standard now?

The administration currently says that there will be no layoffs.

How many SFRD firefighters are assigned to the volunteer departments currently? I've seen the SRFD Chief say that they are currently understaffed (by about 16 FF's I believe). Maybe the plan is to not fill these spots with new FF's and move the FF's in the volunteer houses back to the city houses.

Maybe that's part of the reason the hiring freeze was extended to the Fire (& Police) Departments.

The return of SFRD employees back downtown may well solve many problems.

On that note in answer to the question "why isn't it time for one unified combination department"?...a review of the last few pages should give ample proof as to why this is not a viable option for Stamford right now.

[FFPCogs 863]

Pete, I keep hearing AHJ thrown around. These new employees will be city employees, as far as it seems. Also, you keep saying the Union negotiates with the SFRD administration. I don't believe that is completely accurate. Yes, the administration is at the table, but the Union negotiates with the city.

Malloy's plan required a charter revision. So does this one. So isn't this plan, under that logic, currently illegal also?

And as it was pointed out, the Union represents firefighters that have been assigned to these areas for 2 years. Whether you like it or not, they should have been at the table.

Also, for everyone out there, especially those volunteers both inside and outside Stamford that see these potential jobs as a lottery ticket in a fixed game, just take a look at the level of anger on both of these forums about this.

Anyone that takes these jobs, if they come to fruition, will at best be walking into a hornet's nest of ill will and legal battles. At worst, you will be forever associated with ill gotten jobs and screwing brother and sister firefighters out of legitimate jobs, putting them on the unemployment line. Earning the respect of brother and sister firefighters throughout the region will be very difficult I would think. And that is a tough environment to work in. Just something to think about. This is an unbelievably toxic situation to walk into.

It may seem hokey, but it is true- earning the respect of your fellow firefighters is a very important nuance to our job. Respecting each other, being able to trust each other is a big part of that whole brotherhood concept. That is a term that too many of us throw around too casually. The respect of your peers means something. Or, at least, it damn well should. It's an honor thing.

Keep in mind that a good reputation in the fire service is very hard to earn, very easy to lose, and CT is a very small fire service community.

Now, don't have a wiggins on me. I am not saying don't take a job, or do take a job with this new "volunteer" fire department if it actually happens. I know what decision I would make. Each of you must make your own. But for the hundreds of guys out there desperate to get on a job (and I remember how that feels), I am just saying this particular situation, this potential job with the Stamford "Volunteer" Fire Department is one you want to look at with your eyes wide open. This is a brutally tough situation, and looks to remain that way for years. Regardless of what the outcome is.

If I didn't know better I might be intimidated by the picture you paint.

Pete, You have, however, made it clear your agenda is one of these jobs. So let's just leave it at that

Don't presume that you know what my motivations are because you don't. Now maybe in similar circumstances you may be motivated by the prospect of a job, but that my friend is a far cry from who and what I am about and those that know me know that.

Stay Safe

Cogs

_____________

Peter Cogliano

FF/ T.O.

Belltown Fire Dept

currently working with Dyncorp/LOGCAP IV

Camp Leatherneck

Afghanistan

[jcoppola 52]

No, he didn't misspeak......HYPOCRITICAL is more like it.....

I go out of my way to support you guys at 786 and this is the cheap shot you take?

Nice Brother.

I would like to think that all my Brother Firefighters in Local 786, including the ones who I served beside for many years, know my stand on the issues. I have, much to the chagrin of my father, (the "hypocrite" you speak of) have been nothing more that a huge supporter of Local 786 in my home town of Stamford since I actually paid dues to your union in the 90's. I stand behind my reputation as a devoted union leader. If you knew of the arguments that I have had with my father over the years about the Stamford situation, maybe you would have given me the courtesy of leaving out your idiotic comment.

[FireMedic049 597]

Anyone who can read a newspaper knows the history of this affair, and anyone who can read the Charter can see that the Union has no authority to dictate what happens in the VFD districts.

Ok, I get that the Charter grants the VFDs some sort of "independence" with their operation, but if the Charter prevents the Union from dictating what happens in the VFD districts and the Charter prevents the City from dictating that a single department structure be formed, then why did the City have a seat at the table (but not the Union) if neither could apparently dictate any course of action? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Regardless, it's really not the Charter that causes the Union to have "no authority" in the "VFD districts". It's actually the fact that they have no members employed by the VFDs.

On a related note, to me at least, it's pretty clear that we all aren't talking about the same things here. You keep talking about how "the Union has no authority to dictate what happens in the VFD districts". While this may be true in the respect that no Union members are employed by the VFDs, you seem to be evading an important question in the matter. Was the creation of a single combination department even a possibility? I get that the Charter currently prevents this, but clearly from the plan picked, revision of the Charter was an acceptable course in general.

So, if there was never any possibility for a single department to be created and the Local to represent the paid employees of that single department, then I can see them not being given a seat at the table for this Task Force.

So, was this Task Force really created to find the best solution for Stamford or just the best way to preserve the current separation?

On that note in answer to the question "why isn't it time for one unified combination department"?...a review of the last few pages should give ample proof as to why this is not a viable option for Stamford right now.

Yes it does, but I'm sure we don't have the same conclusion of what that proof is showing the reason to be.

[Guest capnlinus]

Jason this particular point really stuck out as I read it. Just curious here but tell me do you feel that your union brothers and now brother SFRD personnel that came from the VFDs are "scabs" that never "took a competative written and physical agility test, passed a medical exam, attended a 14 or so week academy and work on engine/truck/rescue companies with a crew and boss" or that maybe they "couldn't get on the job anywhere through the front door, so let me just sneek in through the back", since after all the majority of them were hired by their former volunteer Chiefs only?

If not why the double standard now?

The return of SFRD employees back downtown may well solve many problems.

On that note in answer to the question "why isn't it time for one unified combination department"?...a review of the last few pages should give ample proof as to why this is not a viable option for Stamford right now.

I would offer that those employees were a merger of two employee groups, much like an airline merger. So, following your train of thought, shouldn't city firefighters that are going to be laid off, and we all believe there will likely be layoffs, shouldn't these city firefighters be merged into the new "volunteer" department before a single insider is handed a job?

I don't see a double standard.

And honestly, I don't see the last few pages as a reason not to consolidate all departments into one. I see them as a reason these departments MUST be consolidated into one combination department. This isn't about a goddamn turf battle, it is about providing the best level of service to your residents.

[Jason762 2]

Jason this particular point really stuck out as I read it. Just curious here but tell me do you feel that your union brothers and now brother SFRD personnel that came from the VFDs are "scabs" that never "took a competative written and physical agility test, passed a medical exam, attended a 14 or so week academy and work on engine/truck/rescue companies with a crew and boss" or that maybe they "couldn't get on the job anywhere through the front door, so let me just sneek in through the back", since after all the majority of them were hired by their former volunteer Chiefs only?

If not why the double standard now?

No, I do not feel they are scabs due to the fact that 1. they were always in the union and 2. no union brothers lost their jobs when those guys came on board. In fact I believe it was the "volunteer" departments that caused the guys from District 2 to get laid off in the first place and basically forced the union's hand to take them into the SFRD. They did have to undergo an 8 week (give or take, cant remember exactly how many weeks) "mini-academy" at the training center under the tutelage of SFRD instructors. Was this the ideal procedure for hiring candidates in my opinion? Absolutely not, I think all new hires should come off a list from a competitive exam and they should attend an academy. But no one lost their jobs, in fact it was the union body that saved jobs.

With this new plan, it is highly probable that current SFRD FF's could lose their jobs and I feel that anyone willing to take a job in a department like that, who is fully aware of the potential job losses, is not only sneeking in the back door but is a scab. You want to be a FF? Go out and take tests like the rest of us, stop looking for a handout. I certainly wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I knew my employment in a fake-career FD was at another firefighters expense, but hey, that's just me.

[Guest capnlinus]

If I didn't know better I might be intimidated by the picture you paint.

Don't presume that you know what my motivations are because you don't. Now maybe in similar circumstances you may be motivated by the prospect of a job, but that my friend is a far cry from who and what I am about and those that know me know that.

Pete,

I am not trying to intimidate anyone, and I think you know it. Read some of the reaction on here to the idea of firefighters being dumped on their collective asses to be replaced by insiders who circumvented civil service. And then tell me that those firefighters will not be met by a total lack of respect from their peers. Can't you see that is what will likely happen over the next few years?

All I am saying is that people who are willing to take these new jobs, if they happen, need to be clear about the environment they will be working in. I was inferring nothing more, nothing less.

And as to your motivations, as to who you are, what you are about? No I don't know you.

But I have read your comments on here and another forum. I am going by what you have written. And you have presented yourself on here, in part, as vehemently anti Local 786, and very much in favor of one of these possible jobs, damn the consequences. You have presented yourself as very much in favor of a plan that most insiders and outsiders view as, at best, highly suspect. And at worst, as job stealing, turf protection, and an attack on the Union.

You are very much in favor of this plan. You are anti L-786 when discussing this process. You are very interested in these jobs. You are not, in the end, concerned that it will cost other firefighters their jobs. These observations are all from your words.

I feel you have made your motivations very clear to all of us. I am not judging you. Nor am I attacking you. You have made some strong statements on here in almost every post. There is no ambiguity about your positions that I can see.

Edited June 17, 2010 by capnlinus

[Geppetto 31]

Firefighters' website scrutinizes fire plan

Stamford Times

06/16/2010

STAMFORD -- The Stamford Professional Firefighters Association (SPFFA) has officially launched www.stamfordfiretruths.org, a website that the SPFFA says will "provide elected officials, business owners and residents with factual information on proposed changes to the nature of fire protection in the city."

The SPFFA initiated the site following the announcement by Mayor Michael Pavia's administration that it would create a second parallel professional fire department within the City of Stamford to be named the Stamford Volunteer Fire Department, according to the SPFFA. ...

http://www.thestamfordtimes.com/story/487817

[nfd2004 750]

All I am saying is that people who are willing to take these new jobs, if they happen, need to be clear about the environment they will be working in. I was inferring nothing more, nothing less.

And as to your motivations, as to who you are, what you are about? No I don't know you.

But I have read your comments on here and another forum. I am going by what you have written. And you have presented yourself on here, in part, as vehemently anti Local 786, and very much in favor of one of these possible jobs, damn the consequences. You have presented yourself as very much in favor of a plan that most insiders and outsiders view as, at best, highly suspect. And at worst, as job stealing, turf protection, and an attack on the Union.

You are very much in favor of this plan. You are anti L-786 when discussing this process. You are very interested in these jobs. You are not, in the end, concerned that it will cost other firefighters their jobs. These observations are all from your words.

I have to agree. Clearly it seems to be all about a firefighter job without the competative exam process. I'm sorry I have to say this, but I also believe that is the reason for such strong support for this new system. Otherwise, it just wouldn't make sense. I would never consider a job that would be putting others with families out of work. Espically firefighter jobs where we use the term "Brotherhood" so often. As you know, I took several test before I got the job. It sure didn't come easy, but I was always willing to accept what ever happens without trying to take another "Brothers" job to support my own family.

After reading these pages on the Stamford merger, I feel one of the leading motivators for being in favor of this issue has to be "self satisfaction".

[dragonrescue 28]

I go out of my way to support you guys at 786 and this is the cheap shot you take?

Nice Brother.

I would like to think that all my Brother Firefighters in Local 786, including the ones who I served beside for many years, know my stand on the issues. I have, much to the chagrin of my father, (the "hypocrite" you speak of) have been nothing more that a huge supporter of Local 786 in my home town of Stamford since I actually paid dues to your union in the 90's. I stand behind my reputation as a devoted union leader. If you knew of the arguments that I have had with my father over the years about the Stamford situation, maybe you would have given me the courtesy of leaving out your idiotic comment.

My apologies.....Wrong Cappola

[jcoppola 52]

My apologies.....Wrong Coppola

Accepted.

So as to clarify, my father, Joseph G. Coppola Jr. (R-15) is on the Board of Representatives in Stamford and is second generation volunteer in Belltown FD. He was Chief for 20 years there and holds some pretty firm beliefs in volunteerism. I, too, am a Veteran Member of Belltown and I am proud to say where I came from, but I am realistic and can see through much of what is currently going on in the system.

I also can say that I believe the mayor's plan is totally anti-labor, not well though-out and creating even more of a Fire Service crisis in Stamford. I stand firmly behind my Brothers and Sisters of Local 786. I have proved that both in word and deed over the years, ask anyone from 786 and they will tell you exactly that. I hide nothing.

Joseph V. Coppola

TRUMBULL, CT Resident

Career Fire Fighter, Norwalk Fire Department

Secretary, IAFF Local 830, Norwalk Professional Firefighters Association

Veteran Member, Belltown Fire Department

[Alpinerunner 61]

No, I do not feel they are scabs due to the fact that 1. they were always in the union and 2. no union brothers lost their jobs when those guys came on board. In fact I believe it was the "volunteer" departments that caused the guys from District 2 to get laid off in the first place and basically forced the union's hand to take them into the SFRD. They did have to undergo an 8 week (give or take, cant remember exactly how many weeks) "mini-academy" at the training center under the tutelage of SFRD instructors. Was this the ideal procedure for hiring candidates in my opinion? Absolutely not, I think all new hires should come off a list from a competitive exam and they should attend an academy. But no one lost their jobs, in fact it was the union body that saved jobs.

With this new plan, it is highly probable that current SFRD FF's could lose their jobs and I feel that anyone willing to take a job in a department like that, who is fully aware of the potential job losses, is not only sneeking in the back door but is a scab. You want to be a FF? Go out and take tests like the rest of us, stop looking for a handout. I certainly wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I knew my employment in a fake-career FD was at another firefighters expense, but hey, that's just me.

I don't have the time to keep up with this thread... I could spend hours clearing up the spin and misinformation here, as FFPCogs has been, but this is too blatent. Comments like this really make me sick. The union members of the volunteer districts almost lost their job BECAUSE of the union and the city. They wanted to REPLACE those guys with SFRD personnel, and the volunteer companies had to GO TO COURT on their own dime and get an injunction that stopped that from happening. The injunction said that the paid firefighters of the volunteer houses could not be laid off. Those very same employees called their union reps for help when the city was going to lay them off and they essentially said, since you aren't real union members we can't help you.

As for the testing and hiring procedure, a fire district/company is allowed to use whatever hiring procedure they want. The volunteer districts have their own testing procedure which includes a pysical agility that has been used since the 1950's. Most guys on the job could not pass the CPAT after 5-10 years on the job, however, those are the more experiened and knowledgable guys. I could point out many SFRD personnel that could not pass the CPAT now, that still make excellent firefighters and would be a great addition to a new fire company.

Please get your facts straight before you post because you can really mislead the people who don't know what's going on and come here to gather info.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Alpinerunner

[FD828 77]

I don't have the time to keep up with this thread... I could spend hours clearing up the spin and misinformation here, as FFPCogs has been, but this is too blatent. Comments like this really make me sick. The union members of the volunteer districts almost lost their job BECAUSE of the union and the city. They wanted to REPLACE those guys with SFRD personnel, and the volunteer companies had to GO TO COURT on their own dime and get an injunction that stopped that from happening. The injunction said that the paid firefighters of the volunteer houses could not be laid off. Those very same employees called their union reps for help when the city was going to lay them off and they essentially said, since you aren't real union members we can't help you.

As for the testing and hiring procedure, a fire district/company is allowed to use whatever hiring procedure they want. The volunteer districts have their own testing procedure which includes a pysical agility that has been used since the 1950's. Most guys on the job could not pass the CPAT after 5-10 years on the job, however, those are the more experiened and knowledgable guys. I could point out many SFRD personnel that could not pass the CPAT now, that still make excellent firefighters and would be a great addition to a new fire company.

Please get your facts straight before you post because you can really mislead the people who don't know what's going on and come here to gather info.

Talk about misinformation! Talk about not telling the truth! Unbelievable! First of all the CITY came up with the plan to merge the UNION firefighters that worked at the VFD's to save money (the career staff had such things as 1 for 1 OT) and provide more staffing then what was currently there, NOT the union. The union had to make a choice and they did what was best for EVERY member of the local. To make such a false statement as " since you aren't real union members we can't help you." is just completely unreal. Get the facts straight before you go and start blabbing about things you only think you know. The VFD's except Glenbrook faught this plan. The union did everything to keep those members from losing their jobs.... if the VFD's accepted the change, NO FIREFIGHTER would have been laid off, not a single one. They would have increased the career staff but because they would be SFRD personel that wasn't good enough, oh yeah they would of had their funding as well just like Glenbrook. Tough S**T! This whole mess would have been a thing of the past if the other departments went with the plan. Not saying the plan was perfect, but the VFD's would still be in charge at all calls (cause we all know that is on of the main fears of SFRD working up North), they would of INCREASED the amount of paid personel responding to all calls, their funding would of still been there, and we could of all trained together and the volunteers could still respond just as they have been!

[junior215 0]

Sorry, Alpine, but I have to agree with most of what Jason762 had to say. I guess you do not remember the Belltown and Glenbrook paid members that WERE laid off back when this started??!!! Also, I guess you do not remember that to get hired for the Glenbrook, Belltown and TOR departments you had to take the CITY OPEN COMPETITIVE EXAM and opt to get put on the list for those jobs??!!!! And I guess you do not remember another fire department that hired whoever they wanted....it was Rural-Metro in Rye Brook.

So, maybe you can remember this..........The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. You really seem to care about being a firefighter, righteous man. Do not be fooled into believing that everyone you listen to really cares about you.

Also remember, there is no "I" in team, but there is a "ME." Just ask Glenbrook!!!!!

[Guest FDNY99]

Cogs although you may think your plan ( I got to see your proposal on paper cover page included) you and the other 2 submitted is a valid solution, and if guys lose jobs because of the plan that is ok...because you get a job out of it (and let's be EXTREMELY realistic here....Pavia says no layoffs NOW...in 12 months there will be a bunch of guys collecting unemployment...then he will just be cutting overstaffing) your 2 partner's in crime, your 2 IAFF Local 786 card carrying cronies must have some SERIOUS explaining to do now to their fellow brothers in 786, especially the ones who stand to lose their job. It is funny how you fail to mention THAT little factoid in all your arguments! The other thing, ask the guys on the job in any of the 3 West Haven departments how taxing districts work...especially funding pensions! Add to that the SERIOUS lack of CT labor law knowledge Pavia and Larobina (yes anyone with the slightest bit of insight to the way Stamford is right now knows this is who is running the city) have and it will be interesting to see how this plays out!

Another question Cogs....would you be so supportive of this plan if they were sending all the D2 guys back to fill all these "new" positions in the new dept?

Aron Buch

[Guest capnlinus]

I don't have the time to keep up with this thread... I could spend hours clearing up the spin and misinformation here, as FFPCogs has been.........

As for the testing and hiring procedure, a fire district/company is allowed to use whatever hiring procedure they want. The volunteer districts have their own testing procedure which includes a pysical agility that has been used since the 1950's.........

Please get your facts straight before you post because you can really mislead the people who don't know what's going on and come here to gather info.

Alpine, I know you don't have alot of time, so I will be brief.

The same test since 1950's? Really?? I just......REALLY????

That is good, the fire service in the last 60 years has not changed at all. Actually, I am sitting here now cleaning my rubber 3/4 boots as I watch a first run episode of Leave It To Beaver. C'mon!

Cogs has been very, very clear about his agenda and intentions. So the same question goes to you sir.

Are you interested in one of these jobs?

[FFPCogs 863]

No, I do not feel they are scabs due to the fact that 1. they were always in the union and 2. no union brothers lost their jobs when those guys came on board. In fact I believe it was the "volunteer" departments that caused the guys from District 2 to get laid off in the first place and basically forced the union's hand to take them into the SFRD. They did have to undergo an 8 week (give or take, cant remember exactly how many weeks) "mini-academy" at the training center under the tutelage of SFRD instructors. Was this the ideal procedure for hiring candidates in my opinion? Absolutely not, I think all new hires should come off a list from a competitive exam and they should attend an academy. But no one lost their jobs, in fact it was the union body that saved jobs.

With this new plan, it is highly probable that current SFRD FF's could lose their jobs and I feel that anyone willing to take a job in a department like that, who is fully aware of the potential job losses, is not only sneeking in the back door but is a scab. You want to be a FF? Go out and take tests like the rest of us, stop looking for a handout. I certainly wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I knew my employment in a fake-career FD was at another firefighters expense, but hey, that's just me.

I see so those people who were originally hired by the VFDs prior to 1999 are not "scabs" even though they were hired under the very same conditions you find "horrible and sickening" and believe this new entity will employ and were not union members when hired. So it must just be that because they are union members now it really doesn' t matter how they got their jobs, why then does it matter how anyone else gets theirs?

Cogs has been very, very clear about his agenda and intentions.

Yes I have both on and off these boards and you sir have been very clear in yours.

I respect every member here regardless of whether or not they do me, but I have to tell you it seems many of you have come to believe your own rhetorical propaganda a little to much.

Stay Safe

Cogs

_____________

Peter Cogliano

FF/ T.O.

Belltown Fire Dept

currently working with Dyncorp/LOGCAP IV

Camp Leatherneck

Afghanistan

[pjreilly 6]

Part one of Past Chief Graner on the situation. A little long but a good read

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/default/article/Former-chief-gives-his-scouting-report-on-fire-526403.php

Part two

http://m.stamfordadvocate.com/stamford/article/LbsFmdIa

[Guest capnlinus]

Yes I have both on and off these boards and you sir have been very clear in yours.

I respect every member here regardless of whether or not they do me, but I have to tell you it seems many of you have come to believe your own rhetorical propaganda a little to much.

I have been clear about many things on both of these threads. As far as the guys hired in the VFDs before '99, one question- when they were hired was anyone from another department laid off......

I believe this plan is fatally flawed. I believe the fact that 786 was shut out makes it fairly obvious that there are more omnious agendas at work here. I believe there are several local firefighters thinking they are going to walk into jobs at this new "volunteer" department.

I have shown no one here disrespect. I have stated what I felt about what is happening. Would I take one of these jobs? No sir. I would not.

[FireMedic049 597]

.........., but I have to tell you it seems many of you have come to believe your own rhetorical propaganda a little to much.

While that may be true for some, I think it's at minimum, equally true that some may be too close to the situation to realize just how absurd this plan is.

So, do you have an answer to my question yet? Was a single department structure ever actually on the table for discussion?

[Jason762 2]

I see so those people who were originally hired by the VFDs prior to 1999 are not "scabs" even though they were hired under the very same conditions you find "horrible and sickening" and believe this new entity will employ and were not union members when hired. So it must just be that because they are union members now it really doesn' t matter how they got their jobs, why then does it matter how anyone else gets theirs?

Like I said, I don't agree with the hiring process that has been discussed. What the difference is, is that no one lost their jobs when those guys were hired. I truly believe SFRD jobs will be lost if/when this plan goes through. Furthermore, I do not have the power to change the past, but I will stand up and voice my opinion about the hiring process for the future. I firmly believe that anyone looking to get on this SVFD job is looking to get in the backdoor. Did guys get in the backdoor in the SFRD in the past, yes. Can I change that, no. But I will not stand by idly while brothers who got on the job the right way are laid off. I find it very difficult to believe that anyone could actually be for this ridiculous plan unless they were looking to benefit from it themselves. It makes no sense on every level...the SFRD can cover the entire city with existing manpower!! It is a no-brainer, but maybe not for some. Look, I understand, you are on your side and I am on mine. I don't expect us to agree and we seem to be talking in circles at this point.

[IzzyEng4 427]

OKAY OKAY OKAY - TIME OUT!!!

I've been reluctant to chime in here but now I have too.

First off, no matter who is belly aching, whether it be the Local or the VFDs here is the reality of it, the Consolidated City & Town of Stamford states what it states. Black and White, it is law!

Second, its not up to Local, the VFDs, the city council to dictate what is right for Stamford. They can suggest what is a good proposal, but it is up to the voters in the effected area of Stamford for any changes. For example, under the proposed and I'll call it the "North Stamford Fire District" (never saw so many people get their panties in a bunch over a proposed name with the word vollie in it and asking to have career people like before all of them got laid off in the Big Five, give it a break, it's a proposal not set in stone!!!! Sorry for my venting on that)............

Where was I? Oh yes, under the new proposal with the "North Stamford Fire District", a combination department, it would include four of the five volunteer FDs. Okay, fine enough. First step, for those who don't understand CT law, we have a home rule act and under that a Special District such as a Fire District is considered a municipality. It has a governing board who are elected by those in the district and collects taxes. So with that said, those residents who are in the effected are of the new "fire district" would have to vote whether or not they want this to be formed. A petition has to be signed and presented to the State General Assembly. If it is approved by the State Legislature after going through the proper investigation, then its enacted and the "North Stamford Fire District" would be created under a Special Act. The city/town charter has no authority over the district, is a completely separate entity (kinda like NY's villages & districts within a town). Now having that said, the City / Town of Stamford Charter regardless if it stays the same or is changed, the fire district will exist as it is incorporated and chartered by the state. The residents voted for what they want.

Now to the other side, say those residents vote down the proposed "North Stamford Fire District", now what happens? Well its charter revision time!!!! Stamford's charter has to be changed to incorporate all areas of the town/city combined to fall under its fire protective services, ect. This again has to be voted upon by the residents at a referendum before it changes. Figure that will take roughly a year or more to figure out all the correct law-talk. The it has to go to the state Assembly for investigation and approval of the change (usually a couple months). If it is passed then the re-organization can begin. Also a charter change will have to be enacted under the current proposal with Glenbrook falling under the SFRD's protection area. Again the charter has to be changed for this to reflect SFRDs protection area, of course if that is spelled out in the charter what they protect (I'm not an authoritarian on that nor have the time to read Stamford charter and incorporation papers).

Regardless what everyone wants to debate, it is up to the resident of Stamford and those who live in the areas where the major changes are going to occur. They are the voice and know what they want, regardless what anyone else says.

As for who would represent any career members in "North Stamford", well that is also up to them. By right they can organize on their own and have to wait a specific (don't know how long) amount of time before they can petition with a union after the fire district is created and they are hired. I know it not that long of an amount of time but there is some sort of legal mumbo-jumbo out there for that. And yes if they chose and downtown's local wants to represent them, they can join that local as a separate bargaining unit (West Haven's three district's career FFs are all in the same local, three separate bargaining units. Also you cannot compare West Haven's district situation to Stamford because its a totally different situation they are in.)

Hopefully no member of SFRD will lose their jobs, that would be a travesty and I would hope if this separation proposal goes through, all those members will be reassigned to Glenbrook and the other SFRD houses.

Everyone has to work together down there and protect your citizens, visitors and business owners when it comes down to it. And don't forget, the residents are the ones who will dictate what they want.

[Goose 188]

I don't have the time to keep up with this thread... I could spend hours clearing up the spin and misinformation here, as FFPCogs has been, but this is too blatent. Comments like this really make me sick. The union members of the volunteer districts almost lost their job BECAUSE of the union and the city. They wanted to REPLACE those guys with SFRD personnel, and the volunteer companies had to GO TO COURT on their own dime and get an injunction that stopped that from happening. The injunction said that the paid firefighters of the volunteer houses could not be laid off. Those very same employees called their union reps for help when the city was going to lay them off and they essentially said, since you aren't real union members we can't help you.

As for the testing and hiring procedure, a fire district/company is allowed to use whatever hiring procedure they want. The volunteer districts have their own testing procedure which includes a pysical agility that has been used since the 1950's. Most guys on the job could not pass the CPAT after 5-10 years on the job, however, those are the more experiened and knowledgable guys. I could point out many SFRD personnel that could not pass the CPAT now, that still make excellent firefighters and would be a great addition to a new fire company.

Please get your facts straight before you post because you can really mislead the people who don't know what's going on and come here to gather info.

Ok, forget the spin. Direction question:

How many more houses are you and the rest of the volunteers going to allow to burn down before you decide to take an honest look inside and fix the problem?

If i lived in north stamford and it was my house you let burn down, i would sue until i owned the respective volunteer department and then donate it to the city of stamford.

[FireMedic049 597]

OKAY OKAY OKAY - TIME OUT!!!

I've been reluctant to chime in here but now I have too.

First off, no matter who is belly aching, whether it be the Local or the VFDs here is the reality of it, the Consolidated City & Town of Stamford states what it states. Black and White, it is law!

Second, its not up to Local, the VFDs, the city council to dictate what is right for Stamford. They can suggest what is a good proposal, but it is up to the voters in the effected area of Stamford for any changes. For example, under the proposed and I'll call it the "North Stamford Fire District" (never saw so many people get their panties in a bunch over a proposed name with the word vollie in it and asking to have career people like before all of them got laid off in the Big Five, give it a break, it's a proposal not set in stone!!!! Sorry for my venting on that)............

Where was I? Oh yes, under the new proposal with the "North Stamford Fire District", a combination department, it would include four of the five volunteer FDs. Okay, fine enough. First step, for those who don't understand CT law, we have a home rule act and under that a Special District such as a Fire District is considered a municipality. It has a governing board who are elected by those in the district and collects taxes. So with that said, those residents who are in the effected are of the new "fire district" would have to vote whether or not they want this to be formed. A petition has to be signed and presented to the State General Assembly. If it is approved by the State Legislature after going through the proper investigation, then its enacted and the "North Stamford Fire District" would be created under a Special Act. The city/town charter has no authority over the district, is a completely separate entity (kinda like NY's villages & districts within a town). Now having that said, the City / Town of Stamford Charter regardless if it stays the same or is changed, the fire district will exist as it is incorporated and chartered by the state. The residents voted for what they want.

Now to the other side, say those residents vote down the proposed "North Stamford Fire District", now what happens? Well its charter revision time!!!! Stamford's charter has to be changed to incorporate all areas of the town/city combined to fall under its fire protective services, ect. This again has to be voted upon by the residents at a referendum before it changes. Figure that will take roughly a year or more to figure out all the correct law-talk. The it has to go to the state Assembly for investigation and approval of the change (usually a couple months). If it is passed then the re-organization can begin. Also a charter change will have to be enacted under the current proposal with Glenbrook falling under the SFRD's protection area. Again the charter has to be changed for this to reflect SFRDs protection area, of course if that is spelled out in the charter what they protect (I'm not an authoritarian on that nor have the time to read Stamford charter and incorporation papers).

Regardless what everyone wants to debate, it is up to the resident of Stamford and those who live in the areas where the major changes are going to occur. They are the voice and know what they want, regardless what anyone else says.

As for who would represent any career members in "North Stamford", well that is also up to them. By right they can organize on their own and have to wait a specific (don't know how long) amount of time before they can petition with a union after the fire district is created and they are hired. I know it not that long of an amount of time but there is some sort of legal mumbo-jumbo out there for that. And yes if they chose and downtown's local wants to represent them, they can join that local as a separate bargaining unit (West Haven's three district's career FFs are all in the same local, three separate bargaining units. Also you cannot compare West Haven's district situation to Stamford because its a totally different situation they are in.)

Hopefully no member of SFRD will lose their jobs, that would be a travesty and I would hope if this separation proposal goes through, all those members will be reassigned to Glenbrook and the other SFRD houses.

Everyone has to work together down there and protect your citizens, visitors and business owners when it comes down to it. And don't forget, the residents are the ones who will dictate what they want.

Nice rant, but I don't believe anyone is advocating for an end run around the law in order to create a single department structure.

I think some of us are just confused as to why the excuse for not pursuing this course seems to be a pretty consistent "it's against the Charter", when making a change to the Charter is an option, but there doesn't seem to be much of an issue with pursuing the required "legal changes" in order to create the new fire district and fire department that seems to not do much for actual unification of the Stamford fire service.

As has been said before, from an outside perspective this proposed course of action seems to have more to do with preserving the "status quo" while providing the "illusion of change" rather than attempting to actually solve the "problems" and provide the desired "uniform delivery of services" to all of Stamford.