Update on Stamford Merger

[Geppetto 31]

Fire sends resident to hospital

Stamford Advocate 10/28/08

By Jeff Morganteen

STAMFORD - A small kitchen fire Sunday night in Springdale sent a middle-age man to the hospital for smoke inhalation and underscored the continuing rift between paid city firefighters and volunteers. ...

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/ci_10833324?

And the hits just keep on coming ...

[FFPCogs 863]

Indeed they do. It is truly amazing (and sad) what has happened to Stamford's Fire Services.

Cogs

Edited October 28, 2008 by FFPCogs

[Guest Slayer61]

17+ minute response time?

[jack10562 414]

It looks as if the author of the article has a proverbial "axe to grind" using the kitchen fire incident as nothing more than an opportunity to stir the pot concerning the "continuing rift" between the paid and vollie companies.

Otherwise, there is no big news: Small kitchen fire, resident treated for smoke inhalation, end of story. Next?

[Guest REDDDOGG]

It looks as if the author of the article has a proverbial "Axe to grind" using the kitchen fire incident as nothing more than an opportunity to stir the pot concerning the "continuing rift" between the paid and vollie companies.

Otherwise, there is no big news: Small kitchen fire, resident treated for smoke inhalation, end of story. Next?

I beg to differ with you on your statement Jack. The issue is we have a "so called " volunteer department making claims about their existence that are just not true. First of all NO DEPARTMENT be it vol or paid should be able to pick and choose which if any calls they respond to on a daily basis. The Springdale Vol dept got caught with their pants down on this one because it came in as an "automatic fire alarm from the residence" to which the generally do not respond.

After arrival Engine 7 ( fully staffed by SFRD ) found a smoke charged apartment with people inside and called in a working fire. This prompted SPFCo to then respond a full 12 minutes later.

Now you state no big news: Small kitchen fire and you are correct and it stayed a small kitchen fire with no fatalities mainly because of the under 4 minute response from E-7 and quick knock down ( remember people were home and actually he fell asleep)

Now before you try to paint me as anti-vol we have now "all volunteer dept" in town which to there credit has responded to ALL CALLS no matter the nature of the call. They have gotten a machine out on 100% of the calls. So give credit where credit is do...and do not where it isn't but please do not try to just blow this away as a story with an Axe to grind as you say..

Edited November 1, 2008 by REDDDOGG

[BMeehan282 8]

Personally, I don't believe that the VFDs are responsible for preventing the career department from responding..as it now stands the SFRD responds anyway regardless of if they are "wanted". Nor do I believe that a system similar to Fairfield's where volunteers perform specialized tasks/assignments such as Rescue Co. or brush response will fly in Stamford. I believe that any such system would result in the VFFs being relegated to secondary assignments and will soon lead to a situation similar to Hamden or East Haven where VFFs are ultimately simply support and clean-up crews. As a volunteer who has spent years training and fighting fires I find that prospect abhorrent, and any who believe that that should be my fate as a volunteer to be arrogant, self serving and uninformed as to the reality of what contributions/sacrifices we volunteers make.

Unlike some, I remain an optimist and believe that workable and acceptable alternatives are possible. As a now "official" ( just registered to vote..lol) Stamford resident I will seek at every turn to see them become reality. I truly hope there are others here and within Stamford's fire services who believe the same. I stand ready to serve.

Cogs

The "hybrid" or "combination" system you describe exists in Danbury also. Cogs, Your dedication and desire to serve and help is very admirable, and certainly you are an asset to the organizations you belong to. The issue however is this: There simply aren't enough people like you out there, that is why the vast majority of volunteer organizations do not work well any longer. In any volunteer emergency service operation it is hard to field crews to do the "routine" or bs responses. Whether it's Fire or EMS, makes no difference; people do not want to go, or better yet - DO NOT go to the nursing home BLS runs, or the AFA at the hospital for the 300th time this year. Problem becomes when someone "humanizes" that BLS patient, or the 301st run to the AFA is actually a fire. Then the volunteer aspect looks very bad. I am sitting here this saturday am listening to the next town over miss three 'vanilla' EMS calls in short order. I'd be willing to bet that a motorcycle or plane crash would have gotten the local volunteer ambulance manned.

Fire and EMS coverage should be based upon a readiness model, where people and equipment are poised to respond to ANY emergency 24/7/365. The vast majority of volunteer operations (anywhere) are no longer made up of members who believe in a duty to act, or a "calling" if you will. How many people on here know volunteers who shut their pagers OFF at times?

Compounding the stamford debate is the varying level of coverage across the town. It is not fiscally, or morally responsible to have a three minute career fire response of a dozen firefighters to some tenement in one part of town, and a ten minute response of one firefighter to a multi-million dollar mansion in another section of town.

The responsible thing to do in todays world is to GUARANTEE a minimum level of response across the board, and then volunteer operations should concentrate on what they can provide and perform WELL. If that means the volunteers are 'relagated' to specialty rescue functions, or back up, fill in, whatever, then that's what they should do. It's not really that difficult. If a volunteer operation can guarantee 24/7/365 coverage that meets the minimum accepted response across the rest of the city, then they should be allowed to provide that, but everyone honestly knows that doesn't occur.

I am surprised that no one seems to bring up the fact that Stamford went through this with EMS a while ago. There were various levels of EMS care and response, and all of that was consolidated into one system with one level of service.

bernie

[FFPCogs 863]

BMeehan,

Thanks for the compliment.

I have in the past and continue to believe that volujhteer coverage 24/7-365 is possible. It is in place and working elsewhere, and for all the desire to be "special", VFFs in Stamford are no different than those anywhere else. If they can do it, so can we.

Is it a daunting task to set up and implement such a system...absolutely

Is it possible to do..absolutely.

We can do something or we can do nothing, the choice is there for people to make....and once made we will all have to live with the consequences.

Cogs

[spin_the_wheel 460]

The all volunteer dept that gets out 99% of the time do they have in house crews? Do the volunteer companies in this area respond from home? I understand the whole thing about tradition and history with each individual dept./company, but after reading these posts for some time, it would seem that if these volunteer depts.s want to keep their areas and not become just an overhaul and bottle refill group they should put aside their ego's and all combine. Im not familiar with the area but maybe keep 2 or 3 of the stations pool the manpower and apparatus and create one all volunteer dept. What seems like will happen is that in time 2 or 3 of these volunteer dept.s may finally give in, or be forced to give up their areas, once it's gone it's gone for good. It would be in the best interest of all these dept.s to combine into one strong force. Do it while YOU can control the outcome, otherwise if someone else does it for you I doubt it will be the way you want it. I know of a few dept.s/companies in Lancaster County Pa. who have combined and it seems to work fine.

[FFPCogs 863]

Spin.....

FINALLY someone who gets the point !!!!!

Cogs

[Guest Sqd47]

The all volunteer dept that gets out 99% of the time do they have in house crews? Do the volunteer companies in this area respond from home? I understand the whole thing about tradition and history with each individual dept./company, but after reading these posts for some time, it would seem that if these volunteer depts.s want to keep their areas and not become just an overhaul and bottle refill group they should put aside their ego's and all combine. Im not familiar with the area but maybe keep 2 or 3 of the stations pool the manpower and apparatus and create one all volunteer dept. What seems like will happen is that in time 2 or 3 of these volunteer dept.s may finally give in, or be forced to give up their areas, once it's gone it's gone for good. It would be in the best interest of all these dept.s to combine into one strong force. Do it while YOU can control the outcome, otherwise if someone else does it for you I doubt it will be the way you want it. I know of a few dept.s/companies in Lancaster County Pa. who have combined and it seems to work fine.

I don't mean to split hairs here, but I want to dispute this "99%" figure.

We have, as redddogg, has stated, responded to ALL calls in our district.

We have had apparatus respond on 100% of calls in our district, when dispatched properly.

I will say that we have done better than 100%, because we have responded machines to calls in our district even when there was a dispatch error that did not alert us to the call.

If anyone would like to dispute this, our reports are a matter of public record.

In the case of major incidents going on in surrounding districts that we have not been dispatched to on mutual aid, we send out text messages to our members to man our rigs and quarters in the eventuality the call for help comes and we are needed. It is no secret in time of need we will be ready... our tower ladder has been put to work in almost every major fire in the City of Stamford since it went into service many years ago.

The incoming mutual aid to us is appreciated, and I for one look forward to repaying the favor when asked.

Pat Kilbride

[spin_the_wheel 460]

47...do you have in house crews or is it a home response? Do you think merging the 5 volunteer dept.s into 1 would help you guys as a whole for the long term? You would not really have to loose your history, create 1 joint fire district, each dept. now would be a company, you may have to combine some houses and manpower, eliminate an engine or 2 but in the long run I think it would work if the other departments are not as strong as you are. have 5 chiefs one from each company each year it rotates from company to company who will be "chief" of the combined department, the other 4 are assistants. Each company would have 3 line officers a Capt. and 2 Lt.s. I dont know how its worked now but you may loose some Chiefs and officers but this system would still allow for an all Volunteer system in this I would assume large area. Plus the city and the paid department would only have to deal with 1 unified system on all levels the buisness end and firematic end.

[FFPCogs 863]

Spin,

I will not speak for anyone else..but I will say that there have been many reasons expressed as to why a unification of Stamford's volunteer fire dept.s WON'T work. I came up in the "system" here and I have just have to say that for all the myriad of reasons attempting to consolidate won't work, there is one pressing reason why it HAS TO work. I would hope that the survival of any and/or ALL of the VFDs here would outweigh any reasons there may be to not try it.

Cogs

[Guest Sqd47]

47...do you have in house crews or is it a home response? Do you think merging the 5 volunteer dept.s into 1 would help you guys as a whole for the long term? You would not really have to loose your history, create 1 joint fire district, each dept. now would be a company, you may have to combine some houses and manpower, eliminate an engine or 2 but in the long run I think it would work if the other departments are not as strong as you are. have 5 chiefs one from each company each year it rotates from company to company who will be "chief" of the combined department, the other 4 are assistants. Each company would have 3 line officers a Capt. and 2 Lt.s. I dont know how its worked now but you may loose some Chiefs and officers but this system would still allow for an all Volunteer system in this I would assume large area. Plus the city and the paid department would only have to deal with 1 unified system on all levels the buisness end and firematic end.

No assigned shift house crews.

Home response is allowed.

Would a merger be better? Who knows. Not really my place to say.

[E58RET 24]

What from "spin" has posted I think he has proposed the best of both worlds for the Stamford problem. It comes down to go alone and perish or go together and survive. The guy is from LongIsland which has a strong Vollie base, but recognizes the fact that it is getting tougher to cover all the calls with the day to day responsibilities of family/work/membership

[FD828 77]

I beg to differ with you on your statement Jack. The issue is we have a "so called " volunteer department making claims about their existence that are just not true. First of all NO DEPARTMENT be it vol or paid should be able to pick and choose which if any calls they respond to on a daily basis. The Springdale Vol dept got caught with their pants down on this one because it came in as an "automatic fire alarm from the residence" to which the generally do not respond.

After arrival Engine 7 ( fully staffed by SFRD ) found a smoke charged apartment with people inside and called in a working fire. This prompted SPFCo to then respond a full 12 minutes later.

Now you state no big news: Small kitchen fire and you are correct and it stayed a small kitchen fire with no fatalities mainly because of the under 4 minute response from E-7 and quick knock down ( remember people were home and actually he fell asleep)

Now before you try to paint me as anti-vol we have now "all volunteer dept" in town which to there credit has responded to ALL CALLS no matter the nature of the call. They have gotten a machine out on 100% of the calls. So give credit where credit is do...and do not where it isn't but please do not try to just blow this away as a story with an Axe to grind as you say..

Just out of curiosity.... this "all volunteer dept" that has responded to "ALL CALLS".... how many volunteers responded on those calls??? 1 driver alone?? Just because an engine responds doesn't mean it is good service. But what the public doesn't know won't hurt them, right?

[Guest Sqd47]

Just out of curiosity.... this "all volunteer dept" that has responded to "ALL CALLS".... how many volunteers responded on those calls??? 1 driver alone?? Just because an engine responds doesn't mean it is good service. But what the public doesn't know won't hurt them, right?

Response reports are a matter of public record.

If you are so curious, why not come by?

[FFPCogs 863]

I can't speak on the statistics regarding the number of personnel on EVERY call, but I can say that every call I've witnessed in the past month has been fully covered for the nature of the call by the department to which REDDOG refers. The public (including my family and myself) are well served and SAFE being covered by them, of that I have absolutely NO DOUBT.

On another note,

As I have become closer to the situation now that I live here, I can see that my calls for unity (you know, those long winded dissertations) among the VFDs of Stamford is not as simple as I had hoped it would be. I won't go so far as to say it's impossible, but there is quite a bit of work to be done to see it through. Whether or not others are willing or see the need (except for a few here) is another matter, and remains to be seen. If one fact has become apparent though it is that for any meaningful steps to be taken each VFD will have to bring something to the table which will benefit all....As a resident and taxpayer I sincerely hope all the VFFs of Stamford who read this work to accomplish just that much. Baby step first and from there the sky's the limit.

Cogs

[kpelley 0]

I can't speak on the statistics regarding the number of personnel on EVERY call, but I can say that every call I've witnessed in the past month has been fully covered for the nature of the call by the department to which REDDOG refers. The public (including my family and myself) are well served and SAFE being covered by them, of that I have absolutely NO DOUBT.

On another note,

As I have become closer to the situation now that I live here, I can see that my calls for unity (you know, those long winded dissertations) among the VFDs of Stamford is not as simple as I had hoped it would be. I won't go so far as to say it's impossible, but there is quite a bit of work to be done to see it through. Whether or not others are willing or see the need (except for a few here) is another matter, and remains to be seen. If one fact has become apparent though it is that for any meaningful steps to be taken each VFD will have to bring something to the table which will benefit all....As a resident and taxpayer I sincerely hope all the VFFs of Stamford who read this work to accomplish just that much. Baby step first and from there the sky's the limit.

Cogs

Cogs, answer the question, how many people do you consider fully covered? Is it the same number the taxpayer gets from SFRD ? Is Belltown going to let you back in ?

[FFPCogs 863]

Cogs, answer the question, how many people do you consider fully covered? Is it the same number the taxpayer gets from SFRD ? Is Belltown going to let you back in ?

Ok kpelly here goes, and please realize that I am speaking for myself only.

Initially, 4 on at least one Engine for fire calls, same for the truck, 2-3 on the engine or rescue for medicals, plus POV responses for both types..this is what I've seen which as I said is not every call. And since SFRD IS responding as well than yes the taxpayer is recieving full coverage and they are getting what they pay for in THIS district and under the current response protocols.

And as I also stated I am absolutely confident of the safety of my family, friends, neighbors and other residents of this district, with or without an SFRD response, based on my fire service experience/education over the years and my knowledge of the caliber of personnel of that department.

As for my future with the BFD, that is for them to decide. And regardless of my status with them, barring any drastic complications such as bankruptcy or a mass exodus of members, my belief holds firm as a taxpayer and resident.

Cogs

Edited November 7, 2008 by FFPCogs

[kpelley 0]

Ok kpelly here goes, and please realize that I am speaking for myself only.

Initially, 4 on at least one Engine for fire calls, same for the truck, 2-3 on the engine or rescue for medicals, plus POV responses for both types..this is what I've seen which as I said is not every call. And since SFRD IS responding as well than yes the taxpayer is recieving full coverage and they are getting what they pay for in THIS district and under the current response protocols.

And as I also stated I am absolutely confident of the safety of my family, friends, neighbors and other residents of this district, with or without an SFRD response, based on my fire service experience/education over the years and my knowledge of the caliber of personnel of that department.

As for my future with the BFD, that is for them to decide. And regardless of my status with them, barring any drastic complications such as bankruptcy or a mass exodus of members, my belief holds firm as a taxpayer and resident.

Cogs

Cogs, thanks for the honest answer.

[FFPCogs 863]

Your welcome

Cogs

[Guest Sqd47]

I have said it here before, and I will say it again.

The members of the Belltown Fire Department have made a commitment to the residents of this fire district to protect their lives and property, and they are living up to that commitment.

Number of volunteers is way up from times past, and response times are way down.

In fact, this 100% volunteer company meets the national response time standard, of first unit on scene in under 6 minutes for 90% of calls, a benchmark set for career fire departments.

The residents of our district should know that things have changed dramatically since the time the career firefighters were removed from Belltown.

On April 8, 2007 the Stamford Advocate printed an article by Natasha Lee painted this department in a pretty poor light, with statements like, "According to the city's statistics, response times for Belltown Fire Department increased 37 percent, from 4.5 minutes in 2000 to 6 minutes 11 seconds in 2006 -- the biggest increase of any department. " I dispute those figures, as did department officials at the time.

Response times are back where they were in 2000.

There is a saying in the fire service that goes like this:

"you are only as good as your last call"

Our last call was yesterday afternoon. At 4 p.m. we responded to a medical call. A driver, an officer, and 2 firefighters, ALL VOLUNTEER, who were in quarters at the time manned the rescue and responded. They arrived on scene 4 minutes and 2 seconds later. An SFRD mutual aid engine also responding was cancelled enroute as their services were not needed. That crew of volunteers on the rescue included 3 EMT's, and 1 MRT (medical response technician=certified first responder). 2 additional personnel responded to the scene, one was an EMT, one was an MRT.

Additionally, 10 other volunteers responded to the station for station coverage. Station coverage means that while the crew on that rescue truck is tied up at that medical call, there are more members ready to go in the event of another call.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Sqd 47,

What were the demographics for Francis Ln a few years back. Covering E.M.S. calls is one thing. Handling a working fire with adequately trained interior firefighters in a timely manner is another. That fire remains fresh in my head as how things could go down next time. Your nfris reports and all the numbers in the world doesnt put out fires as we both know. If my memory serves me correctly there were several members in quaters at the time of that alarm yet the outcome was less than favorable. That was when you had paid personel what is going to be different now.

Paul

[Guest Sqd47]

Paul,

I don't know the demographics for that incident. I wasn't there.

Hopefully lessons were learned from a less than favorable outcome.

How will things go down the next time? I guess we will know that when it happens.

It's a fact that we rely on automatic mutual aid, and I am optimistic that when the time comes all personnel responding will operate together in a professional manner to the best of their abilities.

[Geppetto 31]

I am sincerely glad that 1 of the volunteer companies has enough personnel to cover their calls. But the unfortunate underlying theme is that even if that district is covered, it appears that majority of their (and other) posting personnel show no concern for the greater picture of the volunteer fire service of Stamford. I make no pretense that any one of the 5 should or could attempt to cover the vast area outside the downtown area, but once again I put forth the thought that perhaps, just perhaps if there was "1" volunteer department, there wouldn't be so many holes in the system.

I've got my own little piece of bottom land. What you do with yours is your problem.

[FFPCogs 863]

On another note,

As I have become closer to the situation now that I live here, I can see that my calls for unity (you know, those long winded dissertations) among the VFDs of Stamford is not as simple as I had hoped it would be. I won't go so far as to say it's impossible, but there is quite a bit of work to be done to see it through. Whether or not others are willing or see the need (except for a few here) is another matter, and remains to be seen. If one fact has become apparent though it is that for any meaningful steps to be taken each VFD will have to bring something to the table which will benefit all....As a resident and taxpayer I sincerely hope all the VFFs of Stamford who read this work to accomplish just that much. Baby step first and from there the sky's the limit.

Cogs

Preaching to the chior Geppetto.

Cogs

[eckyphats 0]

is there automatic aid coming from fellow volunteer fire districts?

the biggest concern is staffing

why cant the 5 districts combine into one?

there should be no excuses for rigs not getting out or staffed

I can not speak for all volunteer departments in the area , but in Trumbull (one of the busiest all volunteer depts in the area) can get 2,3,4,5 trucks out around the clock staffed, then stamford should be able to. Start taking out of town members, find people that do not work days and could provide some staffing by letting them sleep in the station.. etc

if the volunteer members in stamford truly do not want to get taken over, they should be making all the effort possible to prove the city wrong.

[Guest Sqd47]

I've got my own little piece of bottom land. What you do with yours is your problem.

Geppetto, that's YOUR view of it, based on what YOU see from where YOU sit.

I have a different view of it, based on what I see from where I sit.

And my view is consistent with what I have said before, and that is that our main directive is to live up to our promise and commitment to protect the lives and property of the residents of our district. It is true that we cannot do it all alone, and we have an automatic mutual aid protocol in place.

It is also true that while we no longer do outgoing mutual aid for activated alarms, we have on more than one occasion put out the call to our members and assembled crews during time when there were incidents in the city that could instigate the call for more apparatus and manpower.

All this on $19,400 a year funding from the city. What a bargain, eh?

[Geppetto 31]

And from a geographic point of view - Belltown should be the strongest of the companies. For the sake of the readers - Belltown is centrally located within the city. That means that it has the luxury of obtaining members from the entire city. I would imagine that the other departments actually envy that predicament. Ask yourself, if you lived in the Long Ridge area, would it make sense to volunteer your time and effort in Glenbrook? (by "conservative" estimates 15 minutes by car) Probably not, unless you want to become a salvage/overhaul firefighter, which I also seem to get the read that no-one wants to do.

Look outside the city, and close to home - for example. In NY, the Bedford, Bedford Hills and Katonah Volunteer departments already except each others manpower at calls. That takes plenty of ego-squashing and combined training, so that you know who the heck you're working with. And there are hundreds of positive examples nationwide. Is that the case in Stamford? By reading the letters posted at the Board of Reps site, it looks as if Glenbrook is now ostracized. A similar "untouchable" status was given to Springdale when they signed on with the city back in the '90's.

My comment was not disrespectful to the firefighters in Belltown. I do not care who advances hose lines, as long as someone does! BUT, it just seems to me, and maybe not only to me, that much more could be accomplished if everybody did something together.

When this finally ends - there will be plenty of fat lawyers, but I am not sure there will be "5" companies left to fight fires. Unfortunately, some of them will have used up there last energies in this fight, when they could have salvaged some of their colorful histories combining into a new (and practical) entity.

It is only my opinion.

Edited November 8, 2008 by Geppetto

[Guest Sqd47]

Any chance you can post a link to a posted letter ostracizing Glenbrook? This is news to me, at least.

Combined training is an excellent idea, and I am hoping we will be doing some in the very near future.