Update on Stamford Merger

[FFPCogs 863]

If we look at any of the recent fires up north there has been a large number of SFRD units working these calls. This gives us a insight into the response we can expect from the SVFD, I can't look it at the situation any other way. As for mutual aide it would have to be agreed upon by SFRD (The Chief), I would hope the Chif would take into consideration The people he is paid to protect and their wishes. Maybe the downtown residents won't feel like sending their fire dept to protect people who just caused the downtown tax to go up while up north gets a tax break.

You are correct that SFRD has been fully involved in the recent fires up North, even the ones that turned out badly. But this has been due to the fact that there has not been an adequate in house presence in those VFD stations. The SVFD plan will put paid personnel in all 6 stations and with continued perseverance along with them will be a contingent of volunteers to bring the staffing up to NFPA standards. Along with this asigned personnel home responce will continue and with proper management the required resources should...yes I said should... provide the necessary level of coverage to the residents of North Stamford. But again as a pragmatist I realize that all the pieces may not fall so neatly into place...and that goes for ANY plan.

It's seems anytime the mention of SFRD covering the city you assume the volunteers go away, I've yet to see this spelled out. Belltown will never be without fire protection, if Belltown FD stopped responding SFRD will continue to respond.

Well just as history has offered insight into the ability of the SVFD to provide adequate service, so too does history offer us a glimpse into the future of volunteer fireighting in Stamford. We have at our disposal two departments right in our own City that amply demonstrate the most likely outcome... Springdale and Glenbrook. Of course when we look farther afield we see that more often than not as career departemts "take over" the primary role the volunteers cease to exist. Are there exceptions to this? Of course there are but these are not only few and far between, but these success are usually based on integration, not volunteers as a support service. To date I have not seen any inclination on the part of SFRD or L-786 to develop an integrated service in Stamford, instead volunteers can look forward to a future of being the "farm team" for SFRD. As you can well imagine this glorious image of the future does not sit well with many volunteers, myself included.

And just to clarify the SFRD (Brown) plan calls for the elimination of the fire districts and the reduction of the volunteers response areas to their street addesses. Now in less something has changed BFD is not slated to house any SFRD units so in fact there will be no assigned fire protection in Belltown proper as there is now. This constitues a loss for the residents of Belltown who are being served presently by a functioning VFD that has to date answered 100% of it's dispatched calls, many times without the assistance of SFRD. As a resident of Belltown I can assure you that the BFD is held in high regard by our neighbors and they will not take the elimination of their FD lightly.

Cogs

Edited June 14, 2011 by FFPCogs

[DRF 5]

I was wondering, other than the many, many, many postings by FFPCogs in support of this questionable new Volunteer Fire Department, How many other postings are there that actually support this thing?

I live in Stamford, pay taxes in Stamford, Vote in Stamford and live in a combination response district. I am also a Past Chief of one of the Volunteer Departments. For the record, I have concerns over this SVFD proposal.

[FFPCogs 863]

I was wondering, other than the many, many, many postings by FFPCogs in support of this questionable new Volunteer Fire Department, How many other postings are there that actually support this thing?

I live in Stamford, pay taxes in Stamford, Vote in Stamford and live in a combination response district. I am also a Past Chief of one of the Volunteer Departments. For the record, I have concerns over this SVFD proposal.

If you type a little larger more people might see it. But to the point.

You are not alone in your concerns, so maybe a review of the past few pages can show that I too share many of those cited here and elsewhere. But my support here such as it is, stems from the simple fact that I do believe that the SVFD plan is superior to the SFRD plan at ths time.

Cogs

[Alpinerunner 61]

I was wondering, other than the many, many, many postings by FFPCogs in support of this questionable new Volunteer Fire Department, How many other postings are there that actually support this thing?

I live in Stamford, pay taxes in Stamford, Vote in Stamford and live in a combination response district. I am also a Past Chief of one of the Volunteer Departments. For the record, I have concerns over this SVFD proposal.

Many chose to be quiet for many reasons. 1) there is little to be gained by arguing in this thread. 2) we work together routinely on the street and this may hurt relations. 3) no one will back down from their position because no position is truly wrong. Both methods of providing protection to stamford include a paid force staffing houses, they just go about it very differently.

For instance, a certain member earlier in this thread critized the volunteers for responding in a fly car to provide manpower when an apparatus driver was not available. More recently in this thread, the same member criticized the volunteers for NOT responding in a fly car and waiting for an apparatus driver.... You see what's going on? Arguments will change to suit the issue currently being debated and NO ONE WINS ON THE INTERNET!!!

That's not to say that it's a bad thing that Cogs and others are stating their point of view and engaging in intelligent debate... just know that he isn't the only supporter.

Edited June 14, 2011 by Alpinerunner

[FD828 77]

Whether or not the VFDs would willingly hand over their properties to SFRD or the City is up to the individual departments. To the best of my knowledge no such decisions have been made, but they would be fully within their rights to sell the property, equipment ect ect. and give the proceeds to charity if they so chose. Here again I am simply pointing out some of the facts that exist surrounding the SFRD plan that could potentially sink it.

Cogs

I understand that each VFD "owns" their building, but how did they pay for that said building(s) and equipment? Taxpayer money perhaps? So perhaps the tax payers are the ones who really own the VFD's buildings and equipment.

Hiring 50+ ff's to make up for the lack of volunteers is not saving tax payers money no matter how you slice it. You can cover it up by changing mill rates but you are still robbing Peter to pay Paul. What happens when these ff's want to unionize or want the same pay/benefits as the downtown ff's? What about your tax payer concerns then? Doesn't matter right? As long as SFRD is not up there you really don't care what happens. As long as the VFD's stay in tact, public safety, tax dollars is not a true concern. I would have so much respect for all they volunteers if they really said what this is about and stop all the bs*ing about how it's about public safety and tax payers and the fake concerns about the downtown residents not having their machines anymore cause they are up north. This is and always been about the VFD's keeping what they have, staying in charge, NOT what is best for the public. I give credit to Belltown for handling their calls. They couldn't handle a real fire on their own without SFRD help, but they are responding. 1 VFD out of 5, NONE of them can handle a fire without SFRD. You cannot argue that fact.

Edited June 14, 2011 by jack10562

[mstrang1 213]

Many chose to be quiet for many reasons. 1) there is little to be gained by arguing in this thread. 2) we work together routinely on the street and this may hurt relations. 3) no one will back down from their position because no position is truly wrong. Both methods of providing protection to stamford include a paid force staffing houses, they just go about it very differently.

For instance, a certain member earlier in this thread critized the volunteers for responding in a fly car to provide manpower when an apparatus driver was not available. More recently in this thread, the same member criticized the volunteers for NOT responding in a fly car and waiting for an apparatus driver.... You see what's going on? Arguments will change to suit the issue currently being debated and NO ONE WINS ON THE INTERNET!!!

That's not to say that it's a bad thing that Cogs and others are stating their point of view and engaging in intelligent debate... just know that he isn't the only supporter.

I believe you may be talking about me when you mention criticizing TOR for responding sometimes in the Suburban. First off, TOR members (most, not all, of them)are an asset to SFRD personnel. I never said any different, that I can remember. I work with the guys every day, just yesterday sharing meters and working very well together on a CO call. I also noted that there were 2 engine 9 calls and an engine 8 call earlier in the day with no TOR response. I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying about the responses. I do not criticize the guys for responding in the fly car. I criticize them for other things like picking and choosing calls, taking the fly car to this call but not to this one, etc. My guess is that this comes from the top down through SOGs of what machine goes to what call, etc. I understand. My argument never changed. I am just asking for consistency in response. We never know if we will get no response, a few guys in the fly car, or E62 and R66 with full crews and Chiefs and Marshal's and the whole gamut.

[FFPCogs 863]

I understand that each VFD "owns" their building, but how did they pay for that said building(s) and equipment? Taxpayer money perhaps? So perhaps the tax payers are the ones who really own the VFD's buildings and equipment.

Wrong at least in BFDs case. We own all of the apparatus, equipment and property. This was all purchased with money donated specifically for that purpose by our residents and we have been good caretakers of their investment. The City through tax dollars supports the operating expenses only, so if the City funding tap were turned off the assets would still belong to BFD to do with what we see as in the best interest of the community and our residents.

Hiring 50+ ff's to make up for the lack of volunteers is not saving tax payers money no matter how you slice it. You can cover it up by changing mill rates but you are still robbing Peter to pay Paul. What happens when these ff's want to unionize or want the same pay/benefits as the downtown ff's? What about your tax payer concerns then? Doesn't matter right? As long as SFRD is not up there you really don't care what happens. As long as the VFD's stay in tact, public safety, tax dollars is not a true concern. I would have so much respect for all they volunteers if they really said what this is about and stop all the bullsh**ing about how it's about public safety and tax payers and the fake concerns about the downtown residents not having their machines anymore cause they are up north. This is and always been about the VFD's keeping what they have, staying in charge, NOT what is best for the public. I give credit to Belltown for handling their calls. They couldn't handle a real fire on their own without SFRD help, but they are responding. 1 VFD out of 5, NONE of them can handle a fire without SFRD. You cannot argue that fact.

I cannot nor would I argue the fact that at present the VFDs..all of them...rely on SFRD to differing degrees for assistance at working fires. It is the goal of the SVFD plan to alleviate that situation dramatically. Will it succeed? I do not know but I will say that I agree in principle that hiring 47 additional FFs for up North will not be the end all be all of solving the issue. It will take a considerable effort in recruitment and retention of volunteers to meet the staffing needs of the future. Unlike many I do believe that this is possible given enough support from the City in making it so, For me though, to garner that support the come as you please response mode must cease and a formalized duty schedule implemented. We will see.

Cogs

Edited June 14, 2011 by FFPCogs

[FD828 77]

I cannot nor would I argue the fact that at present the VFDs..all of them...rely on SFRD to differing degrees for assistance at working fires. It is the goal of the SVFD plan to alleviate that situation dramatically. Will it succeed? I do not know but I will say that I agree in principle that hiring 47 additional FFs for up North will not be the end all be all of solving the issue. It will take a considerable effort in recruitment and retention of volunteers to meet the staffing needs of the future. Unlike many I do believe that this is possible given enough support from the City in making it so, For me though, to garner that support the come as you please response mode must cease and a formalized duty schedule implemented. We will see.

Cogs

So this SVFD plan goes through, what happens immediately? There are still not enough volunteers for that set up to work, as you say there has to be recruitment and retention of volunteers to meet the staffing needs. So basically you are admitting that the plan is not set up to work, not at least until they get a bunch of volunteers, train them and give them the incentives to stay, do have that right? So this plan might work in the future, IF they can recruit enough volunteers to pull shifts. Until then, you will just use the SFRD as a cruch. It may work in Belltown, but the residents of TOR, Long Ridge, and of course Springdale are NOT getting the kind of commitment that Belltown has put forth. I am still amazed that you would rather associate yourselves with the other 3 VFD's only to keep SFRD out. A true volunteer FD that responds to 100% of its' calls, trains regularly, yet is getting lumped in with the other departments that do not even respond to all their calls. Do you really believe that the other departments will step up and follow Belltown's lead or is more likely that the paid drivers will respond and the volunteers will continue to pick and choose wich calls they go on, and because SFRD will not be responding the need or desire to respond just to cancell the downtown unit will be gone as well as the need to show up for the medical call or activated alarm? Only time will tell.

And my apologies for not realizing that ALL the equipment and buildings were purchased using soley donated money.

[Geppetto 31]

From one pocket or the other, the taxpayers (stakeholders, community, pick your term -) paid for it.

[CTFF 65]

Cogs,

I'm sure that SFRD units from their current stations (E1, E6 and E7) could respond into the area of the Belltown fire district and meet the NFPA standards for response time and personel. Belltown would not be without protection.

[sqd47bfd 20]

Cogs,

I'm sure that SFRD units from their current stations (E1, E6 and E7) could respond into the area of the Belltown fire district and meet the NFPA standards for response time and personel. Belltown would not be without protection.

Not to mention E5 which already responds to Belltown as well.

[FFPCogs 863]

]

So this SVFD plan goes through, what happens immediately? There are still not enough volunteers for that set up to work, as you say there has to be recruitment and retention of volunteers to meet the staffing needs. So basically you are admitting that the plan is not set up to work, not at least until they get a bunch of volunteers, train them and give them the incentives to stay, do have that right? So this plan might work in the future, IF they can recruit enough volunteers to pull shifts. Until then, you will just use the SFRD as a cruch. It may work in Belltown, but the residents of TOR, Long Ridge, and of course Springdale are NOT getting the kind of commitment that Belltown has put forth. I am still amazed that you would rather associate yourselves with the other 3 VFD's only to keep SFRD out. A true volunteer FD that responds to 100% of its' calls, trains regularly, yet is getting lumped in with the other departments that do not even respond to all their calls. Do you really believe that the other departments will step up and follow Belltown's lead or is more likely that the paid drivers will respond and the volunteers will continue to pick and choose wich calls they go on, and because SFRD will not be responding the need or desire to respond just to cancell the downtown unit will be gone as well as the need to show up for the medical call or activated alarm? Only time will tell.

And my apologies for not realizing that ALL the equipment and buildings were purchased using soley donated money.

You seem to be under the impression that I ardently support the SVFD plan. If that is the case you are mistaken. What I have said repeatedly is that of the two currently on the table I support the SVFD one over the SFRD (Brown) plan. Have 70+ pages of debate and dialouge gone unnoticed. I have laid out over and over what I see as the option that will best suit the needs of Stamford, while maintaining the volunteer sector as a vital and integral part of the system. As I see it (and these posts are MY opinion) the SFRD plan is in effect a death sentence for those volunteers who, like myself, are commtted to helping our neighbors and serving the community. But I truly believe that besides the personal loss there will be unforseen, or should I say unmentioned, future costs to the "cost neutral" plan put forth by SFRD. As a resident and taxpayer as well as a volunteer in Belltown I firmly believe that volunteers can and do save the taxpayers i.e. me money and provide a valuable service. So while not perfect by any means the SVFD plan does incorporate volunteers as an integral element thus offering the benefits both as a taxpayer and as an active volunteer, hence my support for it.

Truth be told I would liked to have seen a different approach taken, one that unified both sectors, but that belief is one shared by only a few of us. Niether the VFDs as a whole or SFRD seem interested in actually melding the two "sides", but rather each seems to want to have their cake and eat it too. This is unfortunate for all involved and in my opinion an opportunity squandered equally by the intransigence of both sides.

As I stated earlier the decision has been made by the memberships of 3 of the 4 VFDs to proceed, including mine. As a member in good standing it is my duty to adhere to the program even if there are elements that I personally disagree with in principle. I fully intend to do so inasmuch as I can. But with that comes the duty to work to improve upon that which I and others see as areas that could stand improvement and this too I intend to do wholeheartedly.

If a day comes that a coordinated effort is made to truly integrate SFRD and the VFDs I will be the first in line to encourgage, and with any luck particpate in, that endeavor. Until then I believe my FD serves our residents well and to their benefit. I am also of the belief that should the need arise under the SVFD plan that that service will be extended to all of the residents incorporated in the SVFD district. As such I and others are prepared to do what is necessary to see that that service and the benefits it offers to our community continues.

Cogs

"As such I and others are prepared to do what is necessary to see that that service and the benefits it offers to our community continues."

So this line isn't misconstrued, this refers to our commitment to respond, train and act professionally in the performance of our duty.

PC

Edited June 15, 2011 by FFPCogs

[FFPCogs 863]

Cogs,

I'm sure that SFRD units from their current stations (E1, E6 and E7) could respond into the area of the Belltown fire district and meet the NFPA standards for response time and personel. Belltown would not be without protection.

You missed my point. It is not the NFPA that is at issue, it is the perception of the residents of Belltown who see this prospective change as a amounting to the loss of THEIR fire department. And as we all know perception can be a powerful force irrespective of the facts.

Cogs

[FFPCogs 863]

From one pocket or the other, the taxpayers (stakeholders, community, pick your term -) paid for it.

Yes the money comes from the residents. I cannot and will not speak for other VFDs, but as I said we at Belltown have been very good caretakers of our resident's investment.

Cogs

[sqd47bfd 20]

There are still not enough volunteers for that set up to work, as you say there has to be recruitment and retention of volunteers to meet the staffing needs. So basically you are admitting that the plan is not set up to work, not at least until they get a bunch of volunteers, train them and give them the incentives to stay, do have that right? So this plan might work in the future, IF they can recruit enough volunteers to pull shifts. Until then, you will just use the SFRD as a cruch. It may work in Belltown, but the residents of TOR, Long Ridge, and of course Springdale are NOT getting the kind of commitment that Belltown has put forth.

This hits the nail on the head.

I have said to the powers that be time and time again that the reason why we have what we have today is the volunteers have always been last in line.

And, the path being trod down now will end at exactly the same place we were several years ago with paid men and a handful of volunteers.

Why hasnt there been a top priority on making a change that will bolster the volunteer ranks, and then worry about the paid men?

Who waved their magic wand to make what is currently planned have a different result than what was there a couple of years ago?

The answer is, that it will be not very different at all, basically the same system that existed before will exist again, with a little window dressing.District lines have been blurred, maybe a little more inter-departmental cooperation that did not exist before, but it's still just like deja vu all over again.

And you guys who are for this plan because you think you will get a job, open your eyes. You may not be the shoo-in that you think. The hiring practices seen in the past should be long gone, Do you have a current CPAT card? If not you better get on that treadmill.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Why hasnt there been a top priority on making a change that will bolster the volunteer ranks, and then worry about the paid men?

Because this isn't your bread winning job. You're not Dependant on taking care of your family by having a decent wage, or fairly good benefits when you go to the firehouse. Seriously think about what you said. Career guys might love the job just as much as you love to volunteer but you should volunteer because you love to do it, not because you want to be taken care of somehow. There shouldn't be perks to volunteer (what makes it volunteer if there are perks btw). Do it because you like to help those in your community, and because it gives you personal satisfaction. If people don't want to volunteer because there is no monetary value in it to them, then they are in it for the wrong reasons to begin with, and you need to change your recruitment and retention standards.

"wahhh....I volunteer, take care of me first, I'm better and deserve more then everyone... wahhh." See how that sounds?

Edited June 15, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[sqd47bfd 20]

Because this isn't your bread winning job. You're not Dependant on taking care of your family by having a decent wage, or fairly good benefits when you go to the firehouse. Seriously think about what you said. Career guys might love the job just as much as you love to volunteer but you should volunteer because you love to do it, not because you want to be taken care of somehow. There shouldn't be perks to volunteer (what makes it volunteer if there are perks btw). Do it because you like to help those in your community, and because it gives you personal satisfaction. If people don't want to volunteer because there is no monetary value in it to them, then they are in it for the wrong reasons to begin with, and you need to change your recruitment and retention standards.

"wahhh....I volunteer, take care of me first, I'm better and deserve more then everyone... wahhh." See how that sounds?

Lets stick to the circumstances in Stamford.

A lot has been said about the decline in volunteerism nationwide, and in Stamford. I can say firsthand that Belltown has bucked that trend. And I have seen an increase in membership in TOR, and have been told that Long Ridge is increasing it's ranks as well.

Nationwide, how have other departments dealt with a decrease in volunteerism? By instituting retention programs.

Why hasnt this been done in Stamford, why can't it be done in Stamford, why does it seem that in the current SVFD plan it is an afterthought?

With that being said, I think there is a better way than the way they are going about this now. There should be a plan that protects current SFRD employees with no demotions or layoffs, and still has measures to include volunteers and has mechanisms in place to cause the ranks to grow. If it takes some incentives, what is wrong with that?

Society and people have changed. Altruism is in short supply.

[FFPCogs 863]

Lets stick to the circumstances in Stamford.

A lot has been said about the decline in volunteerism nationwide, and in Stamford. I can say firsthand that Belltown has bucked that trend. And I have seen an increase in membership in TOR, and have been told that Long Ridge is increasing it's ranks as well.

Nationwide, how have other departments dealt with a decrease in volunteerism? By instituting retention programs.

Why hasnt this been done in Stamford, why can't it be done in Stamford, why does it seem that in the current SVFD plan it is an afterthought?

With that being said, I think there is a better way than the way they are going about this now. There should be a plan that protects current SFRD employees with no demotions or layoffs, and still has measures to include volunteers and has mechanisms in place to cause the ranks to grow. If it takes some incentives, what is wrong with that?

Society and people have changed. Altruism is in short supply.

On the money Pat!!

As I know you are aware much has been researched, developed and forwarded in respect to incentives for recruitment and retention which to date has seen little in the way of action. The pursuit of a concrete plan to achieve the necessary volunteer personnel will continue unabated regardless of the ultimate outcome of the either the SVFD or SFRD options.

Cogs

[SFRD372 43]

Reported natural gas leak, 900 block of High Ridge Road (Turn of River District). Restaurant and hair salon had odor of natural gas. Monday mid-morning! NO VOLUNTEER RESPONSE!!!! SFRD E8,E6, R1 , T1 DC4 all on scene. Thats why this volunteer plan won't work. There aren't any volunteers now!

[CTFF 65]

Why hasnt this been done in Stamford, why can't it be done in Stamford, why does it seem that in the current SVFD plan it is an afterthought?

I'm not sure why a recruitment and rentention program hasn't been done in Stamford. I would hope aa member of a volunteer dept in Stamford you could answer that question. What efforts has the volunteer made to make a R&R plan work?

I think it can be done in Stamford. I know the possibility of points on the entrance exam for volunteers has been discussed. I know this may only benefit a small portion of the volunteers but it is a step in the right direction, right?

I would think any recruitment and rentention plans for the SVFD would have to come from the SVFD Budget. I'm not sure how the city could offer something to members of a private organization.

Edited June 15, 2011 by CTFF

[sqd47bfd 20]

I'm not sure why a recruitment and rentention program hasn't been done in Stamford. I would hope aa member of a volunteer dept in Stamford you could answer that question. What efforts has the volunteer made to make a R&R plan work?

I think it can be done in Stamford. I know the possibility of points on the entrance exam for volunteers has been discussed. I know this may only benefit a small portion of the volunteers but it is a step in the right direction, right?

I would think any recruitment and rentention plans for the SVFD would have to come from the SVFD Budget. I'm not sure how the city could offer something to members of a private organization.

I can answer the question.

There are several approaches to how to do something like this.

One involves an abatement of property tax, whether it be real estate property tax, or personal property tax such as the tax paid on your vehicle. I believe, but am not certain, that there is a mechanism set up by the state by which a municipality can offer such an abatement to a resident.

I do know for a fact that the former Belltown chief approached the former Stamford mayor on more than one occasion looking to make such an abatement a reality in Stamford, and was stonewalled. This type of abatement represents a true and real incentive to many more people than offering points on a civil service exam. I honestly feel that if the former administration had been more supportive of, and realized the value of, a strong volunteer cadre of firefighters in Stamford, you would see a very different set of circumstances than we have today.

There are other perks one can offer, such as subsidizing the expense of a gym membership, rewarding a member with a nice piece of equipment for high levels of participation, etc., but all these things do cost money. After being in deficit spending for several years because Mayor Malloy viciously cut the operating budget, it is nice to actually have a budget again, but it doesnt seem any money is earmarked for member perks.

[pjreilly 6]

I can answer the question.

There are several approaches to how to do something like this.

One involves an abatement of property tax, whether it be real estate property tax, or personal property tax such as the tax paid on your vehicle. I believe, but am not certain, that there is a mechanism set up by the state by which a municipality can offer such an abatement to a resident.

I do know for a fact that the former Belltown chief approached the former Stamford mayor on more than one occasion looking to make such an abatement a reality in Stamford, and was stonewalled. This type of abatement represents a true and real incentive to many more people than offering points on a civil service exam. I honestly feel that if the former administration had been more supportive of, and realized the value of, a strong volunteer cadre of firefighters in Stamford, you would see a very different set of circumstances than we have today.

There are other perks one can offer, such as subsidizing the expense of a gym membership, rewarding a member with a nice piece of equipment for high levels of participation, etc., but all these things do cost money. After being in deficit spending for several years because Mayor Malloy viciously cut the operating budget, it is nice to actually have a budget again, but it doesnt seem any money is earmarked for member perks.

Who would be entitled to these perks? All volunteers active or inactive? Associate members and Veteran members? The volunteer departments in Stamford have done a good job bolstering their rosters by adding veteran members who have not seen the inside of that firehouse in a long time. Wives, daughters, and girfriends have also been added as associate members to these rosters. Do they qualify too? Which brings me to a question, what constitutes and active volunteer? Is there a certain number of calls that must be answered per month or quarter? Is there a certain amount of company training that needs to be completed per month or quarter? Looking at the rosters of the volunteer departments, There would be a lot of Paid members that would be entitled to DOUBLE DIP on benefits from the city. What's to stop anyone from joining the department just for the perks? And I do agree with the previous poster who stated if you are in it for the perks, you are in it for the wrong reason.

[sqd47bfd 20]

It would be foolish indeed to set up an incentive program that hands out rewards like candy. They should be limited to those who are active, interior qualified members. Set the bar for being "interior qualified" high enough so that the members who produce results are the ones that receive the incentive. No knife and forkers will be leeching.

And, as far as the "double-dipping" goes, if someone is prohibited from being an active member who can respond, obviously they will not be getting any incentive.

Wives, girlfriends, etc. is just muddying the water. (nice nautical reference, eh)

If they aren't active, and interior qualified, no incentive.

[CTFF 65]

I can answer the question.

There are several approaches to how to do something like this.

One involves an abatement of property tax, whether it be real estate property tax, or personal property tax such as the tax paid on your vehicle. I believe, but am not certain, that there is a mechanism set up by the state by which a municipality can offer such an abatement to a resident.

I do know for a fact that the former Belltown chief approached the former Stamford mayor on more than one occasion looking to make such an abatement a reality in Stamford, and was stonewalled. This type of abatement represents a true and real incentive to many more people than offering points on a civil service exam. I honestly feel that if the former administration had been more supportive of, and realized the value of, a strong volunteer cadre of firefighters in Stamford, you would see a very different set of circumstances than we have today.

There are other perks one can offer, such as subsidizing the expense of a gym membership, rewarding a member with a nice piece of equipment for high levels of participation, etc., but all these things do cost money. After being in deficit spending for several years because Mayor Malloy viciously cut the operating budget, it is nice to actually have a budget again, but it doesnt seem any money is earmarked for member perks.

I've seen mention about the tax abatement laws but am not familair with them.

I seem to recall the stamford volunteers stonewalling the past administration when

information was requested from them. I guess this is like the age old question which came first, the chicken or the egg. We all know it was the chicken.

Wouldn't it be better to build a gym at the firehouse? One time cost, serves multiple people and might draw firefighters to the firehouse?

Edited June 16, 2011 by CTFF

[FFPCogs 863]

Who would be entitled to these perks? All volunteers active or inactive? Associate members and Veteran members? The volunteer departments in Stamford have done a good job bolstering their rosters by adding veteran members who have not seen the inside of that firehouse in a long time. Wives, daughters, and girfriends have also been added as associate members to these rosters. Do they qualify too? Which brings me to a question, what constitutes and active volunteer? Is there a certain number of calls that must be answered per month or quarter? Is there a certain amount of company training that needs to be completed per month or quarter?

Incentives are generally tied to participation, and that is the avenue that we see as the most practical. As for who is eligible. well as Pat said we're not looking to hand out "perks" like candy nor should we. Active members, those who respond, participate and work to the required levels would recieve any incentive, those that don't, won't.. Now what that level of particpation will be has to be determined. I favor very stringent rules and guidelines that include not only call responses but training, certifcation, scheduled duty tours and in house work duties as well. Others I'm sure favor a more lenient approach. As with anything compromise will dictate the final result, and that is how it should be.

Looking at the rosters of the volunteer departments, There would be a lot of Paid members that would be entitled to DOUBLE DIP on benefits from the city.

Since your union forbids active volunteering I don't forsee this as a major problem in Stamford. SFRD members that also hold non-active membership in any of the City's VFDs cannot and do not respond, to do so means they face sanctions from your union as we have seen in the past. So no I don't think any of your union brothers will jeaporidize their employment for any nominal perks offered by the VFDs.

What's to stop anyone from joining the department just for the perks?

Nothing and frankly so what. If a person joins and meets the minimums required then they would be entitled to recieve those "perks" would they not? They get their "perks" and we get the level of service we require. A win-win.

And I do agree with the previous poster who stated if you are in it for the perks, you are in it for the wrong reason.

Believe it or not so do I, but be that as it may I am a pragmatist. The world in which we live is a far different one than it was in 1980 when I joined the BFD. Without going into a long diatribe on why the fact remains that times have changed. You know over and over in this very thread I have seen it said that Stamford's VFDs cannot live in the past. I couldn't agree more. Moving forward into the 21st Century...progress... takes many paths, one of them being implementing a comprehensive volunteer incentives program.

Cogs

Edited June 16, 2011 by FFPCogs

[Alpinerunner 61]

I've seen mention about the tax abatement laws but am not familair with them.

I seem to recall the stamford volunteers stonewalling the past administration when

information was requested from them. I guess this is like the age old question which came first, the chicken or the egg. We all know it was the chicken.

Wouldn't it be better to build a gym at the firehouse? One time cost, serves multiple people and might draw firefighters to the firehouse?

Incentives are a tough thing to make work IMO. The problem with property tax abatement is that many volunteers (esp the very active ones) are younger and aren't home owners (esp with Stamford RE prices). A retirement (LOSAP?) fund like they have in NY is nice... but not many people will be swayed to volunteer when the benefits are 20+ years down the road. Points on the exam is nice, and will attract people serious about firefighting, but you will lose them as soon as the test is actually offered and they get hired downtown. A pay-per-call like they do upstate CT ($5 a call?) is fair and makes sense, but is that really going to persuade anyone making a time-money valuation decision?

[FFPCogs 863]

Incentives are a tough thing to make work IMO. The problem with property tax abatement is that many volunteers (esp the very active ones) are younger and aren't home owners (esp with Stamford RE prices). A retirement (LOSAP?) fund like they have in NY is nice... but not many people will be swayed to volunteer when the benefits are 20+ years down the road. Points on the exam is nice, and will attract people serious about firefighting, but you will lose them as soon as the test is actually offered and they get hired downtown. A pay-per-call like they do upstate CT ($5 a call?) is fair and makes sense, but is that really going to persuade anyone making a time-money valuation decision?

Incentives can be tough to make work, especially when not managed properly. One of the key elements of successful incentive programs is that ithey are not tied to one aspect alone. When I say comprehensive that is exactly what I mean. We have found plans that offer stipends for particpation, as well as pay-per-call, along with inclusion in municipal health plans and a LOSAP. Others have all that plus certification stipends, college tuition assistance for fire related courses, tax abatements, scoring preference on ALL municipal civil service exams, gym memberships and live in opportunities. Now some may look at all these "perks" and see only the expenes involved, but no matter how expensive these perks may be they are without fail considerably less than the cost of salaries + benefits to expand an all career service. This is why communities support them. And by the way while compensating volunteers does in fact negate the term volunteer by definition again it must be remembered that the definition is irrellevant as far as the law is concerned. To put this in perspective Federal law allows incentives, or nominal compensation, of up to 20% of the salary for a particular job. For our purposes the top wage of a Stamford FF is roughly $65,000 sans benefits. This allows nominal compensatiion in all forms combined for volunteers of just shy of $13,000 per member while retaining the status of a volunteer under the law. This may cause consternation to some, but for others it is an opportunity and it is one that we as volunteers have every right...if not responsibility... to pursue in our efforts to provide adequate and effective fire protection to our community..

Fire protection no matter how it is provided is an investment and the single greatest failing of Stamford's volunteers has been in not reminding City Hall over the years of that fact. I would venture to bet that had these programs been actively and vigorously pursued in years past this 70+ page discussion would not be taking place. This will change since even as we speak many more eyes are being opened to the fact that volunteers are an investment not an expense and, when utilizing the guidelines advocated, they are one that will prove cost effective.

Cogs

Edited June 16, 2011 by FFPCogs

[FD828 77]

Incentives can be tough to make work, especially when not managed properly. One of the key elements of successful incentive programs is that ithey are not tied to one aspect alone. When I say comprehensive that is exactly what I mean. We have found plans that offer stipends for particpation, as well as pay-per-call, along with inclusion in municipal health plans and a LOSAP. Others have all that plus certification stipends, college tuition assistance for fire related courses, tax abatements, scoring preference on ALL municipal civil service exams, gym memberships and live in opportunities. Now some may look at all these "perks" and see only the expenes involved, but no matter how expensive these perks may be they are without fail considerably less than the cost of salaries + benefits to expand an all career service. This is why communities support them. And by the way while compensating volunteers does in fact negate the term volunteer by definition again it must be remembered that the definition is irrellevant as far as the law is concerned. To put this in perspective Federal law allows incentives, or nominal compensation, of up to 20% of the salary for a particular job. For our purposes the top wage of a Stamford FF is roughly $65,000 sans benefits. This allows nominal compensatiion in all forms combined for volunteers of just shy of $13,000 per member while retaining the status of a volunteer under the law. This may cause consternation to some, but for others it is an opportunity and it is one that we as volunteers have every right...if not responsibility... to pursue in our efforts to provide adequate and effective fire protection to our community..

Fire protection no matter how it is provided is an investment and the single greatest failing of Stamford's volunteers has been in not reminding City Hall over the years of that fact. I would venture to bet that had these programs been actively and vigorously pursued in years past this 70+ page discussion would not be taking place. This will change since even as we speak many more eyes are being opened to the fact that volunteers are an investment not an expense and, when utilizing the guidelines advocated, they are one that will prove cost effective.

Cogs

I have no problem with incentives for volunteers such as points on a test, a LOSAP set up, or even a brak on their city taxes, but paid per call? That is IMO wrong. You are basically paying firefighters for fire service. The law may allow this as you say, but call it what it is. Part time paid firefighters.

[Geppetto 31]

For our purposes the top wage of a Stamford FF is roughly $65,000 sans benefits.

While we are looking at costs, and it appears that there is some favoritism for the former system; then what was the average salary and benefits package under the old system, for the career staff, in the volunteer districts?

Edited June 16, 2011 by Geppetto

[FFPCogs 863]

I have no problem with incentives for volunteers such as points on a test, a LOSAP set up, or even a brak on their city taxes, but paid per call? That is IMO wrong. You are basically paying firefighters for fire service. The law may allow this as you say, but call it what it is. Part time paid firefighters.

I have no problem with you or anyone calling it part-time paid firefighters either, but whatever term you or I may want to place on firefighters that recieve such incentives, the fact is the law states that they are considered volunteers. And let me clarify that while incentives may be allowed up to $13,000 it is a sure thing that no such amount would be granted...and truth be told it is not sought at this time either. I am fervent in my belief that some of the options listed above will serve our needs and thus the community. This belief has gained a considerable following and is growing. If or when any action is taken to encourage the implementation of such a program is quite another matter. For my part I will pursue the incentives option as far as circumstance and reason dictates as will other like minded individuals. Unlike our career colleagues, we do not enjoy the luxury of an international organization dedicated to looking out for our interests, so we must do so for ourselves. Other than in the retention of current SFRD members jobs, whether or not that effort is viewed negatively by the IAFF in general or L-786 in particular is frankly of little concern to many of us, for neither I or any other volunteer answers to that organization. Quite honestly the contemptous view that is so often portrayed of volunteers by the Local along with the specific citing of SFCo,, TOR, LR and BFD as rival organizations, speaks volumes about the cooperative relationship that we can expect to exist under the SFRD plan. There is now growing number of us that believe that volunteers can and more importantly will provide the service necessary to our City, an incentives program is but one tool in the toolbox to help realize that goal.

Cogs

Edited June 16, 2011 by FFPCogs