Update on Stamford Merger

[FFPCogs 863]

I mostly agree, yes. Unfortunately, as I have said before, the mayor is set on 1 goal. I know it is rumor, but it has been said that he was heard (mayor/larobina) that this plan is going forward wheather the BOR likes it or not. Again, rumor, but non-the-less, that is his goal no matter what anyone has to say about it.

I have heard such runmors as well. I try not to put too much stock in rumors as they usually are started to support someones agenda or create animosity that needn't exist. If in fact that is what happens than so be it, but until then nothing is lost in keeping an open mind and willingness.

Cogs

[CTFF 65]

I have heard such runmors as well. I try not to put too much stock in rumors as they usually are started to support someones agenda or create animosity that needn't exist. If in fact that is what happens than so be it, but until then nothing is lost in keeping an open mind and willingness.

Cogs

it's tough to reach any other conclusion in regards to the Mayor and pushing forward, I don't think we've seen any pause from him on this issue. He has repeadetly stated that one Fire Dept in Stamford can't happen now for a variety of legal reasons. Yet somehow a way has been found to merge three (hopefully four) of the volunteer dept under one Chief. The Charter hasn't changed, no boundries have been changed, so what has? If four of the Dept's can merge, why couldn't all six? I Doubt there is any thing in the charter that precludes SFRD and Glenbrook from joing the other 3 (soon to be four?).

Edited June 6, 2011 by CTFF

[lad45der 78]

it's tough to reach any other conclusion in regards to the Mayor and pushing forward, I don't think we've seen any pause from him on this issue. He has repeadetly stated that one Fire Dept in Stamford can't now happen for a variety of legal reasons. Yet somehow a way has been found to merge three (hopefully four) of the volunteer dept under one Chief. The Charter hasn't changed, no boundraies have been changed, so what has? If four of the Dept's can merge, why couldn't all six? I Doubt there is any thing in the charter that precludes SFRD and Glenbrook from joing the other 3 (soon to be four?).

[sqd47bfd 20]

3. Yes. If you do get to ride downtown I'll expect you'll sit the watch, handle the orderly detail and other details handed out by the Officer. This is done in a systematic way currently and you guys have many watches , orderly and yard details to catch up to us.

Geez, you let the back door boys come downtown with their seniority intact, why not do the same for the vollies riding out as well ?

relax, it was a joke.

[CTFF 65]

Geez, you let the back door boys come downtown with their seniority intact, why not do the same for the vollies riding out as well ?

relax, it was a joke.

I'm pretty sure I asked about the paid guys in Long ridge, Gilligan.

[sqd47bfd 20]

I'm pretty sure I asked about the paid guys in Long ridge, Gilligan.

Looking forward to riding the back step with you, Professor!

[FFPCogs 863]

it's tough to reach any other conclusion in regards to the Mayor and pushing forward, I don't think we've seen any pause from him on this issue. He has repeadetly stated that one Fire Dept in Stamford can't happen now for a variety of legal reasons. Yet somehow a way has been found to merge three (hopefully four) of the volunteer dept under one Chief. The Charter hasn't changed, no boundries have been changed, so what has? If four of the Dept's can merge, why couldn't all six? I Doubt there is any thing in the charter that precludes SFRD and Glenbrook from joing the other 3 (soon to be four?).

I have been a proponent of a confederated FD for a long time. One in which SFRD and the VFDs work together in a much more formal manner than is currently the case. A dept made up of two divisions which ultimately answers to one authority be it a Chief, or commissioner or whatever. There are differences and unique circumstances between SFRD and the VFDs which cannot just be overlooked or plowed under if there is to be any kind of real working relationship. Now an idea was hoisted up the flagpole before the Task Force which both sides found fault with, and maybe to an extent rightfully so, but that idea did merge everyone under one ultimate authority while allowing for the differences, hence the two division model. OK so SFRD or should I say L-786 doesn't want it;'s members to work days only, ok that's a point which can be negotiated so that the needs of the community and SFRD are met while the unique contributions of the volunteers are also incorporated. Greenwich's system is not the model I would suggest to achieve that, nor is Danbury's even if they work fine there. A more integrated system is what I firmly believe is in all of our best interests. Again a combination of a Montgomery Cty type model and aspects of what has worked here is to me the best route. Anything that puts one "side" above another will not yeild a lasting solution, or maybe it is that perception that one has an advantage, but let;s face it perception IS reality to those involved. What is needed is compromise and a willingness to respect and incorporate the things that are most valued by the players to reach the common goal of premeir fire protection for Stamford. Both SFRD and the VFDs can provide that when working together, but that must be a two sided coin, not one telling the other it's this or that or the highway. Concessions would be necessary from 786, there's no way around it, just as they would be required of the VFDs. The trick now is to find that which can be conceded without either '"side" losing it'self in the process. Keeping sight of the overall goal.....an integrated, combination fire service for Stamford.....is key.

Cogs

[CTFF 65]

I have been a proponent of a confederated FD for a long time. One in which SFRD and the VFDs work together in a much more formal manner than is currently the case. A dept made up of two divisions which ultimately answers to one authority be it a Chief, or commissioner or whatever. There are differences and unique circumstances between SFRD and the VFDs which cannot just be overlooked or plowed under if there is to be any kind of real working relationship. Now an idea was hoisted up the flagpole before the Task Force which both sides found fault with, and maybe to an extent rightfully so, but that idea did merge everyone under one ultimate authority while allowing for the differences, hence the two division model. OK so SFRD or should I say L-786 doesn't want it;'s members to work days only, ok that's a point which can be negotiated so that the needs of the community and SFRD are met while the unique contributions of the volunteers are also incorporated. Greenwich's system is not the model I would suggest to achieve that, nor is Danbury's even if they work fine there. A more integrated system is what I firmly believe is in all of our best interests. Again a combination of a Montgomery Cty type model and aspects of what has worked here is to me the best route. Anything that puts one "side" above another will not yeild a lasting solution, or maybe it is that perception that one has an advantage, but let;s face it perception IS reality to those involved. What is needed is compromise and a willingness to respect and incorporate the things that are most valued by the players to reach the common goal of premeir fire protection for Stamford. Both SFRD and the VFDs can provide that when working together, but that must be a two sided coin, not one telling the other it's this or that or the highway. Concessions would be necessary from 786, there's no way around it, just as they would be required of the VFDs. The trick now is to find that which can be conceded without either '"side" losing it'self in the process. Keeping sight of the overall goal.....an integrated, combination fire service for Stamford.....is key.

Cogs

This all depends on the city administration. The city could encourage all sides( SFRD, L786, The VFD's & LRPDA) to sit down and talk. From what I've seen to this point I don't see the City supporting talks.

[FFPCogs 863]

This all depends on the city administration. The city could encourage all sides( SFRD, L786, The VFD's & LRPDA) to sit down and talk. From what I've seen to this point I don't see the City supporting talks.

Maybe so. But there are a few things that must be considered besides the current percieved stance of City Hall

1) The plan may not get through the Bd of Reps

2) There's a very good chance the SFRD plan could meet the same fate

3) Most agree that one department is a long term goal

So there is plenty of reason to get moving now on some of these ideas that have graced these pages over the months, maybe even years. Anyone of these factors is, in and of itself, a reason to move, but combined the reason multiply exponentially. No one can stop individuals from exploring options, and even if those talks go nowhere there will be a lasting result from the efforts.....the sides will have talked with the goal of building bridges. Eventually there will come a time when that effort will be put to use, maybe a year from now, maybe 20, but the groundwork will have been laid now, and that is a step forward no matter how you slice it. This simple action can carry over into a myriad of interactions between the union and the VFDs, between the VFDs themselves, between the Admins of SFRD and the VFDs and maybe even between the City and all it's firefighters...the sky's the limit. Now before you go thinkiing I'm a complete lunatic, idiot, or naive fool, rest assured I do have a fairly firm grasp on the brevity and depth of the situation and what's going on and what's at stake. If I'm guilty of anything it's unbridled optimism based on the fact the firemen do what must be done and that is a trait we all share. Why not build on our similarites ourselves rather than let others or circumstances tear us apart.

Cogs

Edited June 7, 2011 by FFPCogs

[gamewell45 258]

There is a reason I bought a house in Stamford with a hydrant in the front yard, have 100 ft of hose, and have no problem tapping the hydrant to access water if my house catches on fire.

Hopefully your not serious about bringing a charged line into your house alone if it catches fire.

[SFRD372 43]

Do you guy's really think that the Board of Representatives will approve this 8 million dollar, minimum, plan? I highly doubt it! The Mayor and his cronies and the members of TRFD, LRFCO, and Belltown are putting the cart before the horse once again! I still can't believe that Joe Coppola SR. voted for this, voting to give up his district? No way!

[Geppetto 31]

Volunteer fire companies agree to pool resources, equipment

http://www.thestamfordtimes.com/story/506133

[FD828 77]

So does this mean that the volunteers from Belltown will respond to TOR's fire house for a call in that district and take a TOR machine and visa versa? Or basically is this just a glorified mutual aid agreement? If so, basically everything is the same as it currently operates. Belltown will respond into TOR's district with BFD's equipment and so on and so on. I guess that way when TOR doesn't respond, they can say "But we did, they just came from our Belltown station." Good smoke and mirror show.

[FFPCogs 863]

So does this mean that the volunteers from Belltown will respond to TOR's fire house for a call in that district and take a TOR machine and visa versa? Or basically is this just a glorified mutual aid agreement? If so, basically everything is the same as it currently operates. Belltown will respond into TOR's district with BFD's equipment and so on and so on. I guess that way when TOR doesn't respond, they can say "But we did, they just came from our Belltown station." Good smoke and mirror show.

As I understand it the goal is to have it so that all volunteers can respond from any station should they be available and in the vicinity. As it stands to the best of my knowledge it will be the apparatus and the paid personnel responding as was done previously under the mutual aid system with volunteers fitting into that as described above...if your near TOR ,or LR or any volunteer station and there's a call in that first due area go to that station and respond, (which would be an improvement over the old mutual aid system) otherwise if your Company is dispatched go and staff your firehouse to backfill the vacant paid personnel and await orders as was done in the past.

As you are well aware I favor a more fomalized program in which volunteers are assigned duty tours at the various stations with all members being part of one pool of personnel resources. That is agreeable to some, and not to others. The growing number of us who believe that this would be a better alternative will continue to pursue it's implementation.

Cogs

Edited June 12, 2011 by FFPCogs

[FFPCogs 863]

Often here at work when I have down time my mind naturally drifts to the events unfolding with our Fire Service back home. Like most I am truly concerned with what will happen, not only because as a volunteer I will be affected by any changes, but more importantly because I have a wife and three childern as well as other members of my family whose lives depend on the outcome.

Recently as I dwelled on our mess I realized that with each "plan" presented there are flaws which may ultimately fail the public .

For the volunteers:

1) An inadequate and uneven distribution of volunteer personnel. Some VFDs have a good number of active and dedicated members, some do not. As I see it there has been no concrete attempt to alleviate this situation.

2) The paid personnel while adequate carry with them a host of issues ranging from salary requirements, to collective bargaining, to the workload that may be placed upon them.

3) The command issues. As of yet there is no definitive standard to which all ranks must adhere and I fear that there will be those among us that undermine all attempts to create such a standard

4) Recruitment and retention. This goes to point one and is to me one of the most challenging yet critical elements in assuring the public safety. As I often say "There is no such thing as a one man fire dept". Members, without them there is no fire dept. To me this seemingly overlooked aspect needs attention in the form of a contractual agreement from the City to support incentives, such as those of Greenwich's volunteers, and from the volunteers side the commitment to effectively use of these new and existing members in a manner far more formalized than come as you please.

5) A unique problem also arises for the union. If in fact this plan comes to fruition and it becomes apparent that, as is regularly stated, additional resources are needed who do you think the SVFD will turn to. Well SFRD of course. Now given that scenario will L-786 refuse to sanction responses into the new SVFD district? To do so would be suicidal in the court of public opinion. And as City employees SFRD members are charged with carrying out the policies of the City, their employer.

When looking the SFRD option some aspects jump off the page as potentially fatal to the plan.

1) The idea of cost neutrality looks good on paper, but does not take the realitiyof the situation into consideration. It is very safe bet that not all volunteer departments will allow the use of their facilities, even with the elimination of the district boundaries. Remember each VFD station is owned by the individual VFD, not the City. Even if eminent domain were utilized there would still be the costs of building at least one, but more likely than not, more, permanent fire stations for the relocated SFRD units as well as purchasing the properties from the VFDs. At a very low ball figure of half a million per, were talking a considerable cost to taxpayers far above cost neutrality.

2) The reloctaion of the apparatus and staffing again looks good on paper but would leave areas of the City devoid of adequate protection. As I asked earlier in this thread, who want to tell the residents of Woodside that their Engine will no longer be there for them and there will be a longer wait to get water on their fire or start CPR on their family member. An how about the resident of Belltown? With no real fire dept left in their nieghborhood and no SFRD unit assigned what happens to them? Why are they so insignificant that they don't deserve the same level of protection as their neighbors in Springdale or Glenbrook? And who want to tell them that?

3) As two recent fires amply demonstrate SFRDs resources can be spread thin in many cases. Both 2nd alarm fires of the other day drained all downtown units leaving only the uptown Engines and the "unreliable" volunteers to handle the City. With some of those units gone up North and no volunteer sector (unrelaible or not), to rely on, what then? Out of town mutual aid? This has the effect of putting the residents of our neighboring communities in potential risk as their units are drawn off to serve Stamford. Where does this lead? To the need to increase the size of SFRD to effectively cover the City. And with that increase comes the increase in expenses to run it, or in other words an additional burden on Stamford's already tired taxpayers.

Much has been said back and forth in support of, or against each plan. Something better may exist but without an effort to formulate and promulgate it we all may end up stuck with a lemon and will have no one but ourselves to blame.

Cogs

Edited June 13, 2011 by FFPCogs

[Anesti 329]

ok im sorry for the silly question,and im not going back 70 plus pages to look for the answer . But why are they trying to consolidate in the fire place??

[Bnechis 3,961]

5) A unique problem also arises for the union. If in fact this plan comes to fruition and it becomes apparent that, as is regularly stated, additional resources are needed who do you think the SVFD will turn to. Well SFRD of course. Now given that scenario will L-786 refuse to sanction responses into the new SVFD district?

You have brought this up before and you have been told that it does not mater if the union sanctions it or not. Unlike the SVFD firefighters, SFRD firefighters do not get to pick which calls they go on.

[Bnechis 3,961]

ok im sorry for the silly question,and im not going back 70 plus pages to look for the answer . But why are they trying to consolidate in the fire place??

Because they are not getting out the door for calls. Also they have a big problem with simple house fires, they keep burning until they either 1) run out of fuel or 2) SFRD puts them out.

[sqd47bfd 20]

You have brought this up before and you have been told that it does not mater if the union sanctions it or not. Unlike the SVFD firefighters, SFRD firefighters do not get to pick which calls they go on.

And it is this aspect that Cogs's idea for duty staffing by the volunteers solves.

If a volunteer is in quarters on a duty shift, he has to respond. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Solves the problem, don't you think?

But then again you no longer would be able to throw this little "they pick and choose calls" barb out there anymore either. What a tragedy.

[CTFF 65]

If a volunteer is in quarters on a duty shift, he has to respond. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Solves the problem, don't you think?

Can you really go with "No ifs, ands, or buts" when your reply starts a Sentence with If?

Edited June 13, 2011 by CTFF

[FFPCogs 863]

Can you really go with "No ifs, ands, or buts" when your reply starts a Sentence with If?

Let's put it this way, in house staffing be it paid or volunteer does address the question of responses. There is a number of us who now believe that volunteer staffing either in conjunction with or instead of paid personnel is the way to go. As such steps are being taken to ensure crews are assembled, assigned and responding. BFD has been fortunate enough to have members in house 24/7 for the vast majority of the time we've been 100% volunteer, as our regular cancellation of responding SFRD units attests. As things progress a more formal program to ensure a minimum compliment is on hand will become the norm. In the end it will be the public we serve that benefits.

Cogs

[CTFF 65]

Often here at work when I have down time my mind naturally drifts to the events unfolding with our Fire Service back home. Like most I am truly concerned with what will happen, not only because as a volunteer I will be affected by any changes, but more importantly because I have a wife and three childern as well as other members of my family whose lives depend on the outcome.

Recently as I dwelled on our mess I realized that with each "plan" presented there are flaws which may ultimately fail the public .

For the volunteers:

5) A unique problem also arises for the union. If in fact this plan comes to fruition and it becomes apparent that, as is regularly stated, additional resources are needed who do you think the SVFD will turn to. Well SFRD of course. Now given that scenario will L-786 refuse to sanction responses into the new SVFD district? To do so would be suicidal in the court of public opinion. And as City employees SFRD members are charged with carrying out the policies of the City, their employer.

Cogs

You've lost me with the above point.

5)You're concerenced with mutual aide already in the SVFD? You also expect it to simply come from SFRD? So you still see the need for SFRD to put out fires up north, you would rather not pay for it though, right?

Later on in your critique of the SFRD plan you worry about out of town residents who may be put in risk as their FD comes to aide stamford. Are you worried about the downtown residents who's closest unit may be up north fighting a fire an unable to provide water or CPR?

[sqd47bfd 20]

Can you really go with "No ifs, ands, or buts" when your reply starts a Sentence with If?

Yes, I can.

And, I did.

Were you a grammar teacher in a previous life?

[CTFF 65]

Yes, I can.

And, I did.

Were you a grammar teacher in a previous life?

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Edited June 13, 2011 by CTFF

[sqd47bfd 20]

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

That makes you smarter than me, then.

[sqd47bfd 20]

And it is this aspect that Cogs's idea for duty staffing by the volunteers solves.

If WHEN a volunteer is in quarters on a duty shift, he has to respond. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Solves the problem, don't you think?

But then again you no longer would be able to throw this little "they pick and choose calls" barb out there anymore either. What a tragedy.

There, fixed it for ya.

[TimesUp 148]

Cog's, If the VFD"s are so concerned with saving the taxpayers money why would they want to sell their firehouses to the taxpayer? Wouldn't the vfd's save the taxpayers money if there was another solution. That is if it ever came to this.

Edited June 13, 2011 by ltrob

[FFPCogs 863]

You've lost me with the above point.

5)You're concerenced with mutual aide already in the SVFD? You also expect it to simply come from SFRD? So you still see the need for SFRD to put out fires up north, you would rather not pay for it though, right?

Later on in your critique of the SFRD plan you worry about out of town residents who may be put in risk as their FD comes to aide stamford. Are you worried about the downtown residents who's closest unit may be up north fighting a fire an unable to provide water or CPR?

As with your interpretation of Pat's post and how he used the word "IF" in regards to volunters at their stations, so to is it in my post that the key word is IF. IF it becomes apparent that the resources of the SVFD are incapable of handling the responses, not when or they will be. There has been much made by contributors here, many from SFRD, of the notion that the SVFD will be incapable of providing adequate manpower for incidents. I was simply pointing out that any additional resources necessary already exist and would be a simple radio call or AMA agreement away. I was also pointing out that any resistance to such an arrangement by L-786, should it beome a necessity, would not bode well for that organization in the public eye. As far as SFRD itself goes yes I do expect any mutual aid will "simply come from" them as they don't really have a choice in the matter. And just to clarify I do not at present see the need for SFRD to assist up North once the SVFD is in place, but as a pragmatic fire officer I do realize that unforseen circumstances could arise and we must be prepared for them.

As to part two of your query,

Yes I am worried about the lack of availibility of units and service that the residents downtown will face if the SFRD plan were to become reality. But my concern is not limited to just downtown. The proposed redistribution of the available resources I believe puts many areas of the City at risk since SFRD will be stretched thin within the confines of Stamford's geography and certain areas i.e. Belltown will be without fire protection at all. By the way my concern in that particular post did not address the situation of SFRD units being pulled North from their current stations. That is a whole other can of worms.

Cogs

Edited June 14, 2011 by FFPCogs

[FFPCogs 863]

Cog's, If the VFD"s are so concerned with saving the taxpayers money why would they want to sell their firehouses to the taxpayer? Wouldn't the vfd's save the taxpayers money if there was another solution. That is if it ever came to this.

Whether or not the VFDs would willingly hand over their properties to SFRD or the City is up to the individual departments. To the best of my knowledge no such decisions have been made, but they would be fully within their rights to sell the property, equipment ect ect. and give the proceeds to charity if they so chose. Here again I am simply pointing out some of the facts that exist surrounding the SFRD plan that could potentially sink it.

Cogs

Edited June 14, 2011 by FFPCogs

[CTFF 65]

As with your interpretation of Pat's post and how he used the word "IF" in regards to volunters at their stations, so to is it in my post that the key word is IF. IF it becomes apparent that the resources of the SVFD are incapable of handling the responses, not when or they will be. There has been much made by contributors here, many from SFRD, of the notion that the SVFD will be incapable of providing adequate manpower for incidents. I was simply pointing out that any additional resources necessary already exist and would be a simple radio call or AMA agreement away. I was also pointing out that any resistance to such an arrangement by L-786, should it beome a necessity, would not bode well for that organization in the public eye. As far as SFRD itself goes yes I do expect any mutual aid will "simply come from" them as they don't really have a choice in the matter. And just to clarify I do not at present see the need for SFRD to assist up North once the SVFD is in place, but as a pragmatic fire officer I do realize that unforseen circumstances could arise and we must be prepared for them.

As to part two of your query,

Yes I am worried about the lack of availibility of units and service that the residents downtown will face if the SFRD plan were to become reality. But my concern is not limited to just downtown. The proposed redistribution of the available resources I believe puts many areas of the City at risk since SFRD will be stretched thin within the confines of Stamford's geography and certain areas i.e. Belltown will be without fire protection at all. By the way my concern in that particular post did not address the situation of SFRD units being pulled North from their current stations. That is a whole other can of worms.

Cogs

If we look at any of the recent fires up north there has been a large number of SFRD units working these calls. This gives us a insight into the response we can expect from the SVFD, I can't look it at the situation any other way. As for mutual aide it would have to be agreed upon by SFRD (The Chief), I would hope the Chif would take into consideration The people he is paid to protect and their wishes. Maybe the downtown residents won't feel like sending their fire dept to protect people who just caused the downtown tax to go up while up north gets a tax break.

It's seems anytime the mention of SFRD covering the city you assume the volunteers go away, I've yet to see this spelled out. Belltown will never be without fire protection, if Belltown FD stopped responding SFRD will continue to respond.