Update on Stamford Merger

[FFPCogs 863]

I posted this on another site , but it fits just as well here.

Just want to take a moment during this holiday season to pass along the following thoughts............

To all:

Although we disagree, sometimes fiercely, and each of us harbors our own views and defends them staunchly, during this Holiday season let us all take a moment to stop and reflect on just how lucky we are to be able to serve in good health and with the true spririt of the service in our hearts. I may not agree with any of you but I do respect your commitment to the Fire Service and to those you serve faithfully. No matter how opposite your views may be from mine, I just want to take the opportunity here to thank each of you for your insight and opinions expressed on these many pages.

Merry Christmas and a Happy and Healthy New Year to you and your families in and out of the firehouse.....

Cogs

[FFPCogs 863]

I have personal interest in seeing the volunteer departments survive. I have history in one of them. However, the leadership is not trying to preserve volunteers, they are trying to become another paid department because they are not part of the one that already exists. If the SFRD or "Brown Plan" were opted for, the volunteers would still have a function. But in their own words, ..."we won't be in charge anymore". This is what it is about. Who is to be in charge. Not what is best for the community. If they are successful in initializing this falacy with 58 more paid ff's, that number will exceed the number of active volunteers. Volunteer Department? I think not. If one of the membes of the vols. is reading this, I dare you to factually prove me incorrect.

There I go again, that da#@ soap box.

Ok well now that Christmas is over it's back to the task at hand.

T,

I cannot in good conscience "factually" tell you that 58 career personnel will not outnumber the total number of active volunteers in town should this plan go forward, as I do not have the rosters of the other 3 VFDs at hand. But I can factually tell you that Belltown has 42 active members on the roster, 32 certified and another 10 on probationary status. And just to be clear when I say active I mean members that show up regularly and do what needs to be done, like get the rigs on the road staffed by competent crews 100% of the time, staff the house during the day, sleep in for night tours, maintain our facilities and equipment, and train at least once a week...although to be honest most nights find the in house crews drilling for at least an hour and we regularly schedule and maintain good attendence at weekend drills as well. So long story short even if BFD were to hire it's best and brightest 9 that the plan calls for, and even if they hire them using the often cited fantasy method of the Chief "hiring his friends" we would still have 33 active volunteer members, and that is a fact.

Now let's take a look at the rest of your post.

You mention the " Brown Plan" and I'm glad you did. Let me first make perfectly clear that I have known Chief Brown for many years and have the utmost respect for him and his years of service to not only SFRD but the BFD as well. That being said, the plan he put forth is not nor can it be the panacea some would have us believe. How is it that taking a truck company out of service and moving it's crew to an engine and sending them "up North" to Long Ridge and moving E-5 from Woodside to TOR 1 is going to offer the City a better level of coverage? This type of redisribution decreases not increases the overall effectiveness of SFRD. If this redistribution did occur how often would those units be pulled from their assigned area to cover others? A quick look at the responses of E-6 can give us a good idea. The majority of calls E-6 responds to are not in Glenbrook, or even the VFD districts for that matter, but downtown. Under the SFRD plan with 2 units gone from downtown it is a safe bet that the units moved up North to Vollyland will, like E-6, have to make up the shortfall. And this doen't even take into account an actual working fire that requires FAST and in many cases goes to a 2nd alarm as a matter of course nowadays. Everything looks good on paper, my ideas included, but the facts are the facts. You state that under the "Brown plan" volunteers would "still have a function" and just what exactly would that function be..the Glenbrook model? As we have seen that model is less than stellar at best and a review of the GFDs responses amply show that. The fact is you can stretch limited resources only so far and the type of redistribution called for by the "Brown plan" would stretch them to the breaking point. This would lead in a very short time to the necessity of having to hire more SFRD personnel which brings us to the real heart of the matter.

I agree 100% that this is all about control and always has been. We have been bombarded in the newspapers and on websites time and again with the view that it is the volunteers who are intransigent about the issue of control. This is not really an objective view on this issue. On more than one occasion options have been presented that put career and volunteer officers together in a unified and integrated Chain of Command so that they work alongside.and compliment each other. On every occasion it was SFRD that refused to budge on the issue. I will ask you directly what is the objection to an integrated Incident Command System comprised of career and volunteer officers that meet the SAME standards? Up to now this option has been dismissed by SFRD because the control issue is one SFRD is unwilling to negotiate...or even address in any way other than to dictate terms. The "my way or the highway" attitude shown thus far by SFRD does not and will not lend itself to a viable merging of the services here, so the only other alternative is the two party system that appears likely on the horizon. There is of course another fact that must be considered in all this....the City Charter which, like it or not clearly delineates control.

There are some of us that are open to a different approach, one that seeks to truly integrate the system, but for that to happen there has to be a change in the stance of SFRD towards the role the volunteers will play in that system. As the New Year fast approaches and with it the deadline for a choice, it falls to SFRD to decide what they are willing to do to create a viable unified department...in other words it is up to you.

Cogs

Edited December 28, 2010 by FFPCogs

[FD828 77]

On more than one occasion options have been presented that put career and volunteer officers together in a unified and integrated Chain of Command so that they work alongside.and compliment each other. On every occasion it was SFRD that refused to budge on the issue. I will ask you directly what is the objection to an integrated Incident Command System comprised of career and volunteer officers that meet the SAME standards? Up to now this option has been dismissed by SFRD because the control issue is one SFRD is unwilling to negotiate...or even address in any way other than to dictate terms. The "my way or the highway" attitude shown thus far by SFRD does not and will not lend itself to a viable merging of the services here, so the only other alternative is the two party system that appears likely on the horizon. There is of course another fact that must be considered in all this....the City Charter which, like it or not clearly delineates control.

There are some of us that are open to a different approach, one that seeks to truly integrate the system, but for that to happen there has to be a change in the stance of SFRD towards the role the volunteers will play in that system. As the New Year fast approaches and with it the deadline for a choice, it falls to SFRD to decide what they are willing to do to create a viable unified department...in other words it is up to you.

Cogs

I agree that the paid and volunteer firefighters can work together, but you said it above. Officers that meet the SAME standards. Have ANY of the voluteers handed over the training records that were requested eons ago? And what are those standards? What are the standards of a firefighter or an officer? Are the career FF's and volunteer FF's really trained to the same level? I don't know. Perhaps there should be a minimum city wide list of mandatory training that all FF's have to have before they go "on the line". Then there should also be mandatory training for FF's before they are qualified to become officers including an amount of time served.

I know that you have seen the men in action on calls. For the most part everyone works well together. There is 1 command at a scene and all officers are in charge of their company. I can't see the issue here. The voluteer LT's are not trying to give orders to the career LT or Captains and visa versa. So in my opinion the real problem is the people above everyone else. The volunteer chiefs want to be in charge in their districts, the career chiefs are going to be on the scene to watch over their own and it pisses off the volunteer chiefs. But again what is the training level and qualifications of the volunteer chiefs??? A lot of TRUST must be earned on both sides for any of this to work. And right now it is not there.

[FFPCogs 863]

I agree that the paid and volunteer firefighters can work together, but you said it above. Officers that meet the SAME standards. Have ANY of the voluteers handed over the training records that were requested eons ago? And what are those standards? What are the standards of a firefighter or an officer? Are the career FF's and volunteer FF's really trained to the same level? I don't know. Perhaps there should be a minimum city wide list of mandatory training that all FF's have to have before they go "on the line". Then there should also be mandatory training for FF's before they are qualified to become officers including an amount of time served.

I know that you have seen the men in action on calls. For the most part everyone works well together. There is 1 command at a scene and all officers are in charge of their company. I can't see the issue here. The voluteer LT's are not trying to give orders to the career LT or Captains and visa versa. So in my opinion the real problem is the people above everyone else. The volunteer chiefs want to be in charge in their districts, the career chiefs are going to be on the scene to watch over their own and it pisses off the volunteer chiefs. But again what is the training level and qualifications of the volunteer chiefs??? A lot of TRUST must be earned on both sides for any of this to work. And right now it is not there.

You ask some very pertinent and legitimate questions which unfortunately I cannot answer with any certainty....I don't have access to that information either. And yes I've worked a number of working fires and many calls with SFRD and have not seen any real issues at least as far as Belltown is concerned. We work well together and I am sure we will continue to do so, as I believe we all have a professional attititude towards performaing our duty. Now on the higher levels of command, yes there are some issues from each "side" which complicate matters, but neither you or I are in a position to solve them on our own.

We cannot change the past and in that vein whether or not a person is "qualified" in the positions they currently hold is not something we can change at this point. What WE (meaning all fire service members in Stamford) can do is develope standardized criteria for officer selection at each level and provide access to the training necessary for all to meet those criteria in the future. To this point that option has not been well recieved by SFRD and in all fairness by some on the volunteer side of the fence either.

You have emphasized the word trust above. While it may not be much let us start small: Do you (or any SFRD members) trust that I mean what I say in regards to actually trying to build a viable integrated system to better serve our community? Do you trust that I am willing to put in the effort to make it so? I can say in all candor and with all sincerity that I don't know if I trust any of you in that regard, but I would give you the benefit of the doubt, and work tirelessly to achieve it, if in fact there was a true willingness to reach the goal of a unified integrated system.

Take this for what it's worth to you....A few months back during a conversation with an SFRD Captain I said and meant it, that I can envision the day when Stamford's career and volunteer firefighters stand shoulder to shoulder, not toe to toe on issues involving the fire service here. I believe that through negotiation and mutual compromise it CAN be done....do you?

Cogs

[FD828 77]

You ask some very pertinent and legitimate questions which unfortunately I cannot answer with any certainty....I don't have access to that information either. And yes I've worked a number of working fires and many calls with SFRD and have not seen any real issues at least as far as Belltown is concerned. We work well together and I am sure we will continue to do so, as I believe we all have a professional attititude towards performaing our duty. Now on the higher levels of command, yes there are some issues from each "side" which complicate matters, but neither you or I are in a position to solve them on our own.

We cannot change the past and in that vein whether or not a person is "qualified" in the positions they currently hold is not something we can change at this point. What WE (meaning all fire service members in Stamford) can do is develope standardized criteria for officer selection at each level and provide access to the training necessary for all to meet those criteria in the future. To this point that option has not been well recieved by SFRD and in all fairness by some on the volunteer side of the fence either.

You have emphasized the word trust above. While it may not be much let us start small: Do you (or any SFRD members) trust that I mean what I say in regards to actually trying to build a viable integrated system to better serve our community? Do you trust that I am willing to put in the effort to make it so? I can say in all candor and with all sincerity that I don't know if I trust any of you in that regard, but I would give you the benefit of the doubt, and work tirelessly to achieve it, if in fact there was a true willingness to reach the goal of a unified integrated system.

Take this for what it's worth to you....A few months back during a conversation with an SFRD Captain I said and meant it, that I can envision the day when Stamford's career and volunteer firefighters stand shoulder to shoulder, not toe to toe on issues involving the fire service here. I believe that through negotiation and mutual compromise it CAN be done....do you?

Cogs

I believe what you say is truely what you believe. But you are not alone in your way of thinking. The majority of the dept doesn't want to do away with the volunteers. A lot of guys feel that one way to go is say X department calls into service with dispatch and tells them that they have an engine or truck staffed with a full crew (Officer, Driver, 2 FF's - all training being equal) they will then be added to the CAD system. When a call comes in the CAD recommends the units. If they are the closest lets say Truck Company, they are assigned as such. When the crew decides to leave the station and no longer have a full crew they call out of service. I realize that this doesn't cover all the details that have to be implemented to ensure complete city wide coverage,(details can be worked out) but it shows that the guys are willing to work as you say shoulder to shoulder.

I also have to tell you that part of the problem is that nobody from the city is willing to sit down and hear other suggested ideas about the fire service. And while others have said (and maybe you did as well), that the union could have put its 2 cents in like you yourself did, you have got to know that the union was not welcomed to participate in the fire study. So while I believe there are problem children on both "sides" the union isn't the "bad guy" in this "game". I would love if the volunteer chiefs sat down with the career staff chiefs and union and worked out a plan TOGETHER and brought it to the mayor (or Larobina whoever is really running things) and said this is what the fire service wants to do. But that is a pipe dream.

It is total smoke and mirrors in my opinion, what the mayor is pushing for. Can you honestly believe that the citizens are not going to be paying tons of $ for the new fire department? What happens if/when the new paid staff wants to unionize? I know something needs to be done, but I truely believe that this is a huge mistake that is going to cost the tax payers lots of money, jobs will be created and jobs will be lost. Once it is done, it will take a whole lot to get it un-done. If you say what you believe, I don't think you believe this is the way to go either. Why anyone wants this plan is beyond me. I don't know what the future will bring. I just hope nobody loses their jobs and mostly that nobody gets hurt.

Edited December 28, 2010 by FD828

[TRex 9]

Happy New Year Gentlemen.

First of all Cogs I beleive you are correct in regards to Belltown. It seems that they have always turned out fire fighters. I have on more than one occassion worked with them jointly and in fact sent a communication addressing that issue. They work as a unit, follow a command, respectful of everyones roll. I do not hear much anti sentiment with regards to Belltown. Maybe the large influence of other paid professional involvemnet with that department. So there we can agree. Unfortunately, the same can not be said for the remainder of the volunteers. I am still awaiting an answer to my challenge.

Just to illustrate my point, and that of FD828's, the loose cannon running around Springdale FD as its leader( I can not refer to him as Chief) exemplifies ..I want to be in charge. He has on more than one occassion stated that if he is not the chosen one to be the Chief of the new Stamford Volunteer FD, than Springdale is out of the plan. Secondly, he has no idea of what he is doing, or has respect for the forces that respond. Case in point. Recent OBOA up off of Eden Rd. He was the only Springdale unit, or person that arrived or responded. SFRD responded as ususal. SFRD IC prior to arrival, is turned around by this jerk. Mind you, no SFCO on scene. SFRD IC continues in anyway, as it is his right to do so. No different than the Springdale jerk who finds it necessary for himself to respond to everyone elses calls in the north and attempts to take charge.

The SFRD IC arrives, and it immediately infuriates the Springdale jerk to the point where he requests police to respond to address an insubordinant fire fighter on the fire ground. The SFRD IC than assigns himself as the Safety Officer to which the jerk replies, I have already assigned 611 as safety. The SFRD IC than responds is 611 state certified as a safety officer. No reply, just crickets chirping. Next thing you hear is the jerk from Springdale asking for PD to step it up for an assault. This is reminiscent of 40 yuears ago when there were fist fights infront of burning buildings amongst different vol. companies as to who was in charge and who's fire it was. There was no assault.

Archaic, backwards. FD828 also brings up a good point. Even training and certifications. Follow the example of EMS. Highest certification on scene is in charge.

As far as the Brown Plan, I too, am very respectful of Asst. Chief Brown. His plan was to address a mandate from his administation for a zero cost expansion, next to impossible. Believe me, I am more against that plan than what lunacy is being propsed now. Anyway, how do you think and what irony is being presented by the city's recent for a 10% services reduction. 10% reduction and 8 million addition for fire service. Maybe the SFRD's response is that engines 8 & 9 are closed. Why not? There are volunteers to repond in their place. Then it would be time to put up or shut up.

Thank,You.

Happy Holidays

[FFPCogs 863]

I believe what you say is truely what you believe. But you are not alone in your way of thinking. The majority of the dept doesn't want to do away with the volunteers. A lot of guys feel that one way to go is say X department calls into service with dispatch and tells them that they have an engine or truck staffed with a full crew (Officer, Driver, 2 FF's - all training being equal) they will then be added to the CAD system. When a call comes in the CAD recommends the units. If they are the closest lets say Truck Company, they are assigned as such. When the crew decides to leave the station and no longer have a full crew they call out of service. I realize that this doesn't cover all the details that have to be implemented to ensure complete city wide coverage,(details can be worked out) but it shows that the guys are willing to work as you say shoulder to shoulder.

Although you didn't directly answer my questions that is to be expected in this climate. What is important is that, as you say there seems to be a willingness to at least explore other options.

I also have to tell you that part of the problem is that nobody from the city is willing to sit down and hear other suggested ideas about the fire service. And while others have said (and maybe you did as well), that the union could have put its 2 cents in like you yourself did, you have got to know that the union was not welcomed to participate in the fire study. So while I believe there are problem children on both "sides" the union isn't the "bad guy" in this "game". I would love if the volunteer chiefs sat down with the career staff chiefs and union and worked out a plan TOGETHER and brought it to the mayor (or Larobina whoever is really running things) and said this is what the fire service wants to do. But that is a pipe dream.

Many volunteers felt that as a group we were excluded from the process that began under Malloy, so I can relate to that view. And it may be that since the view of the union did not prevail as it once did that many feel they have been ignored. As far as I was concerned the plan put forward by Chief Brown was I believed at the time, the one the union endorsed. Now I can't speak for anyone else but to me the union and it's leadership is just doing what unions do...looking out for the welfare of it's members and trying to increase it's political voice, so to me it's not about being the "bad guy". My problem with the union is that it considers me and the rest of my volunteer colleagues as rivals and views us as a threat to the livelihoods of it's members. And that simply is not the case. Truth be told the only jobs that might have been threatened were ones that didn't exist. We can go back and forth with what could've, should've and would've, but that will do us no good now. I do agree that under the current circumstances a "meeting of the minds" is probably highly unlikely, but if a plan were to be mutually developed by some rank and file members from each "side" maybe it could merit the consideration of those minds. As I always say failure to try guarantees only one thing....failure.

It is total smoke and mirrors in my opinion, what the mayor is pushing for. Can you honestly believe that the citizens are not going to be paying tons of $ for the new fire department? What happens if/when the new paid staff wants to unionize? I know something needs to be done, but I truely believe that this is a huge mistake that is going to cost the tax payers lots of money, jobs will be created and jobs will be lost. Once it is done, it will take a whole lot to get it un-done. If you say what you believe, I don't think you believe this is the way to go either. Why anyone wants this plan is beyond me. I don't know what the future will bring. I just hope nobody loses their jobs and mostly that nobody gets hurt.

In a nutshell while I do not believe the Mayor's plan to be "smoke and mirrors" I do harbor some real reservations about it. I will also tell you that alternatives are being worked on that some believe can provide a higher level of service under the two department mandate. Whether or not they will gain a "seat at the table" remains to be seen. For me I believe that come what may we, the volunteers, have to build the foundation to move forward with or without SFRD and that is not by choice but by circumstance, and that is exactly what we are trying to do. Let me close by saying regardless of what you or any of your union brothers may think I don't want to see anyone lose their job.

I think the rank and file are much closer than it may seem, and if there were ever a time to cross the lines now is it.

Cogs

[FD828 77]

Although you didn't directly answer my questions that is to be expected in this climate. What is important is that, as you say there seems to be a willingness to at least explore other options.

Many volunteers felt that as a group we were excluded from the process that began under Malloy, so I can relate to that view. And it may be that since the view of the union did not prevail as it once did that many feel they have been ignored. As far as I was concerned the plan put forward by Chief Brown was I believed at the time, the one the union endorsed. Now I can't speak for anyone else but to me the union and it's leadership is just doing what unions do...looking out for the welfare of it's members and trying to increase it's political voice, so to me it's not about being the "bad guy". My problem with the union is that it considers me and the rest of my volunteer colleagues as rivals and views us as a threat to the livelihoods of it's members. And that simply is not the case. Truth be told the only jobs that might have been threatened were ones that didn't exist. We can go back and forth with what could've, should've and would've, but that will do us no good now. I do agree that under the current circumstances a "meeting of the minds" is probably highly unlikely, but if a plan were to be mutually developed by some rank and file members from each "side" maybe it could merit the consideration of those minds. As I always say failure to try guarantees only one thing....failure.

In a nutshell while I do not believe the Mayor's plan to be "smoke and mirrors" I do harbor some real reservations about it. I will also tell you that alternatives are being worked on that some believe can provide a higher level of service under the two department mandate. Whether or not they will gain a "seat at the table" remains to be seen. For me I believe that come what may we, the volunteers, have to build the foundation to move forward with or without SFRD and that is not by choice but by circumstance, and that is exactly what we are trying to do. Let me close by saying regardless of what you or any of your union brothers may think I don't want to see anyone lose their job.

I think the rank and file are much closer than it may seem, and if there were ever a time to cross the lines now is it.

Cogs

I wasn't not trying to answer your question... I thought I did. But yes I believe you mean what you say. Yes I am for an intergrated department working side by side. I do not like anything about the mayor's plan. There are some things in your plan I like, and some I do not. There are some things in the "Brown Plan" I like and don't like. I think that the details could be worked out if we could all work together. I have to agree with TRex, 511 needs to go. And although the union is trying to look out for its members, I feel they are also looking out for the residents of this city. Perfect example is the recent loss of a large house Christmas night. The union DOES care about the citzens. We all have are hearts in the right place when it comes to serving the public.

[dadbo46 50]

Does this thread expire at 1,000 posts or 100 pages ? Can't wait to see what happens.

Edited December 29, 2010 by dadbo46

[FFPCogs 863]

Happy New Year Gentlemen.

First of all Cogs I beleive you are correct in regards to Belltown. It seems that they have always turned out fire fighters. I have on more than one occassion worked with them jointly and in fact sent a communication addressing that issue. They work as a unit, follow a command, respectful of everyones roll. I do not hear much anti sentiment with regards to Belltown. Maybe the large influence of other paid professional involvemnet with that department. So there we can agree. Unfortunately, the same can not be said for the remainder of the volunteers. I am still awaiting an answer to my challenge.

T,

I thank you for your views regarding BFD, we work very hard at maintaining our long standing reputation as a good FD and we will continue to do so. As for our volunteer colleagues in town, each faces some unique challenges but those challenges can and I believe will be overcome as things move forward. As it stands now we (BFD) are prepared to enter into the proposed merger with the goal of building an effective FD to serve our community and having made that decision we must now take the steps necessary to ensure it's success. This is not an anti-SFRD or anti union stance, it is simply the mandate we have been given and as such we will make every effort to see it through. On the topic of your challenge I can only say that I have answered you as best I can.

Just to illustrate my point, and that of FD828's, the loose cannon running around Springdale FD as its leader( I can not refer to him as Chief) exemplifies ..I want to be in charge. He has on more than one occassion stated that if he is not the chosen one to be the Chief of the new Stamford Volunteer FD, than Springdale is out of the plan. Secondly, he has no idea of what he is doing, or has respect for the forces that respond. Case in point. Recent OBOA up off of Eden Rd. He was the only Springdale unit, or person that arrived or responded. SFRD responded as ususal. SFRD IC prior to arrival, is turned around by this jerk. Mind you, no SFCO on scene. SFRD IC continues in anyway, as it is his right to do so. No different than the Springdale jerk who finds it necessary for himself to respond to everyone elses calls in the north and attempts to take charge.

The SFRD IC arrives, and it immediately infuriates the Springdale jerk to the point where he requests police to respond to address an insubordinant fire fighter on the fire ground. The SFRD IC than assigns himself as the Safety Officer to which the jerk replies, I have already assigned 611 as safety. The SFRD IC than responds is 611 state certified as a safety officer. No reply, just crickets chirping. Next thing you hear is the jerk from Springdale asking for PD to step it up for an assault. This is reminiscent of 40 yuears ago when there were fist fights infront of burning buildings amongst different vol. companies as to who was in charge and who's fire it was. There was no assault.

On this I have to say that I have a somewhat different view. I was on T45 and on scene at this call. The scene was running smoothly until recall was put in. I won't disrespect anyone other than to say that in my opinion what occured was not only unnecessary but also unprofessional.

To me and this is my understanding of how our system works (or not), 511 be he alone or on scene with 100 SFCo FFs is, when in Springdale, still the Chief of that department and as such he is the authorized IC in that district when he's there. Now that may not be palatable, it may not be fair, it may not even be what is "right" but at the end of the day it is the way our system is currently set up and no one has the right to disregard that simply because they think 511 doesn't meet their standards.

Archaic, backwards. FD828 also brings up a good point. Even training and certifications. Follow the example of EMS. Highest certification on scene is in charge.

In essence this is what I've been saying all along. To me it really doesn't matter what criteria is used so long as it is standardized and mutually agreed upon and respected. Anything else is inherently destined to fail.

As far as the Brown Plan, I too, am very respectful of Asst. Chief Brown. His plan was to address a mandate from his administation for a zero cost expansion, next to impossible. Believe me, I am more against that plan than what lunacy is being propsed now. Anyway, how do you think and what irony is being presented by the city's recent for a 10% services reduction. 10% reduction and 8 million addition for fire service. Maybe the SFRD's response is that engines 8 & 9 are closed. Why not? There are volunteers to repond in their place. Then it would be time to put up or shut up.

Thank,You.

Happy Holidays

Putting up or shutting up has been my mantra for quite some time. This view has not endeared me to some but it is how I came up in the fire service and I thank God every day for it. I'm in some very good company that share this view as well. Whatever my personal views may be in the end they don't matter. What does matter is that I and I would hope all involved, take what we've been given and build from it what the community not only needs but deserves.

Bottom line here is that I will work with anyone that wants to work with us to build a unified department beyond the fireground. Frankly though from my perspective it seems that this was not and is not SFRD, but I and others remain open to changing that.

A very Happy New Year to you and all as well.

Cogs

[FFPCogs 863]

I wasn't not trying to answer your question... I thought I did. But yes I believe you mean what you say. Yes I am for an intergrated department working side by side. I do not like anything about the mayor's plan. There are some things in your plan I like, and some I do not. There are some things in the "Brown Plan" I like and don't like. I think that the details could be worked out if we could all work together. I have to agree with TRex, 511 needs to go. And although the union is trying to look out for its members, I feel they are also looking out for the residents of this city. Perfect example is the recent loss of a large house Christmas night.

As I've said we (career and volunteer alike) share many of the same views so in fact we have much more in common than not.

The union DOES care about the citzens.

I have no doubt that this is true.

We all have are hearts in the right place when it comes to serving the public.

Yes we do and it is from this common ground that we should build.....and should have from the beginning.

Cogs

[CTFF 65]

Cogs,

I don't see the mayors plan as a mandate. The mayors plan suggests a vision for the fire service going forward. The mayor hopes the board of reps will enact the legislation required to implement his plan. There is still limited information from the mayors plan and at this point I can't see how the board of reps can even begin to look at making any changes.

[FFPCogs 863]

Cogs,

I don't see the mayors plan as a mandate. The mayors plan suggests a vision for the fire service going forward. The mayor hopes the board of reps will enact the legislation required to implement his plan. There is still limited information from the mayors plan and at this point I can't see how the board of reps can even begin to look at making any changes.

Point taken CTFF maybe mandate is the wrong word. I guess a better way to put it would be to say that to me the Mayor's plan is the direction that has been charted for the volunteer FDs.

[jvcoppola 0]

Frankly, I cannot believe that this utterly frustrating debate is still going on. Time and again, it is proven that this bogus plan the mayor has put forth is nothing but a farce. I ask: what will it take for him to understand that it is not worth the paper it is written on? I'll answer: someone will die. Unfortunately it will have to get to that extreme for these idiots to pull their heads out of their rear ends and realize that going back to the old days will not work in 2011. I say it again, this is not a volunteer/paid issue with me. It's a matter of public safety and the only organization in Stamford who can gaurantee an organized, sufficient response to a fire emergency seems to be the Stamford Fire Rescue Department. Like it or not, that's a fact.

Nothing personal here to my friends in the volunteers, it's just a reality check. I am not a moderator anymore, so I feel liberated enough to let my true feelings fly.

The circus continues...

[Goose 188]

Yes we do and it is from this common ground that we should build.....and should have from the beginning.

Cogs

I understand what you're saying, and don't deny this to be the case on some individual level, but didn't a house just burn to the ground the other day in the section of stamford in question? The kind of stuff i keep hearing that goes on at some of these scenes is scary...it really makes me questions the priority of some of the individuals within (some in leadership positions, in fact) these departments. In fact, i really think they could care less about protecting anyones life or property....it seems like they just want to hold onto their mud, whatever the cost...

Edited December 30, 2010 by Goose

[FFPCogs 863]

I understand what you're saying, and don't deny this to be the case on some individual level,

While we are all at the mercy of our leaderships the fact is changes can and do begin with individuals. I have repeatedly stated that I (and I can think of a few others) will work with anyone who's willing to develope an alternative, yet no one has responded to that offer. Frankly that leads me to question the sincerity of some when it comes to wanting to actually "work together" to resolve this in a mutually beneficial way. Let me ask it clearly. Who among those that visit here would be willing meet with me and possibly a few other Stamford VFFs to explore our options and begin rebuilding the relationships that have been obliterated? If you don't want to answer here PM or email me at ffpcogs@yahoo.com.

but didn't a house just burn to the ground the other day in the section of stamford in question?

As with most incidents there is alot of Monday morning quaterbacking going on. The district in question is one that has some real operational handicaps in terms of water supply, scene access and the like. My colleagues at SFRD are all professionals and experienced FFs, but even now a few years into this they are still basically novices when it comes to rural firefighting..as am I so that's not a dig. Some of the considerations that apply "up North" are quite different than those in well hydranted areas where response times are faster and assets are more readily available. This is not to say that there hasn't been some command "mistakes" or a shortage of intial personnel at times, but one must consider all factors not just the ones which support their arguments if we're going to find solutions.

In regards to this specific incident since I wasn't there I can only go by what I've been told by those that were (volunteer and SFRD alike) and that is that it was a very difficult job due to the fires location and the ability of the crews on scene to get to it.

The kind of stuff i keep hearing that goes on at some of these scenes is scary...it really makes me questions the priority of some of the individuals within (some in leadership positions, in fact) these departments. In fact, i really think they could care less about protecting anyones life or property....it seems like they just want to hold onto their mud, whatever the cost...

Questions abound as to the motivations of many of the players here, and by and large most views about those motivations are based on some pretty misguided beliefs on both "sides" of the fence, including my own I'm sure. How do we overcome the ignorance? By sitting down as professionals and respectfully examning the situation and what we can do about it. If the leaderships can't or won't do it then maybe it's high time the rank and file did..after all it is all of us that will be most affected is it not?

Food for thought I hope.........

Happy New Year

Cogs

[FD828 77]

While we are all at the mercy of our leaderships the fact is changes can and do begin with individuals. I have repeatedly stated that I (and I can think of a few others) will work with anyone who's willing to develope an alternative, yet no one has responded to that offer. Frankly that leads me to question the sincerity of some when it comes to wanting to actually "work together" to resolve this in a mutually beneficial way. Let me ask it clearly. Who among those that visit here would be willing meet with me and possibly a few other Stamford VFFs to explore our options and begin rebuilding the relationships that have been obliterated? If you don't want to answer here PM or email me at ffpcogs@yahoo.com.

As with most incidents there is alot of Monday morning quaterbacking going on. The district in question is one that has some real operational handicaps in terms of water supply, scene access and the like. My colleagues at SFRD are all professionals and experienced FFs, but even now a few years into this they are still basically novices when it comes to rural firefighting..as am I so that's not a dig. Some of the considerations that apply "up North" are quite different than those in well hydranted areas where response times are faster and assets are more readily available. This is not to say that there hasn't been some command "mistakes" or a shortage of intial personnel at times, but one must consider all factors not just the ones which support their arguments if we're going to find solutions.

In regards to this specific incident since I wasn't there I can only go by what I've been told by those that were (volunteer and SFRD alike) and that is that it was a very difficult job due to the fires location and the ability of the crews on scene to get to it.

Questions abound as to the motivations of many of the players here, and by and large most views about those motivations are based on some pretty misguided beliefs on both "sides" of the fence, including my own I'm sure. How do we overcome the ignorance? By sitting down as professionals and respectfully examning the situation and what we can do about it. If the leaderships can't or won't do it then maybe it's high time the rank and file did..after all it is all of us that will be most affected is it not?

Food for thought I hope.........

Happy New Year

Cogs

Cogs,

How can anyone submit any other ideas for the future of the fire service? The mayor will not and has not EVER met with ANY union official since taking office! The head of the city won't meet with the people sworn to serve and protect it. Childish at best. Don't you think that paints a perfect picture of this mayor and his staff? He/they have NO interest in what any of us have to say, period. I would like to think that the mayor (being the Director of Public Safety) would be willing to sit with union officials, act like ADULTS and at least hear some of our ideas. But that is not and has not been able to take place. Whatever is going to happen is out of the our hands. The powers that be will decide all our fates.

[FFPCogs 863]

Cogs,

How can anyone submit any other ideas for the future of the fire service? The mayor will not and has not EVER met with ANY union official since taking office! The head of the city won't meet with the people sworn to serve and protect it. Childish at best. Don't you think that paints a perfect picture of this mayor and his staff? He/they have NO interest in what any of us have to say, period. I would like to think that the mayor (being the Director of Public Safety) would be willing to sit with union officials, act like ADULTS and at least hear some of our ideas. But that is not and has not been able to take place. Whatever is going to happen is out of the our hands. The powers that be will decide all our fates.

FD,

I'm not a complete fool or simply idealisitc, I realize that ultimately it is the powers that be that will decide, but up to this point they have seen no attempts by anyone on either "side" at any level to "cross party lines" or build bridges. What faith can they have based on our..yes OUR... past performance to think that there will be any cooperation in the future? So then what choice is left..they must come up with something and since there has been no collective effort on our part, be it from the top or the bottom, to truly work together and develope an alternative it comes down to chosing one "side" or the other. Our previous Mayor generally sided with the union, it appears our current one will not as readily. To me that means it is up to US to give him something to work with that proves cooperation IS possible and that proof can come from any level.

As hard as this may be to believe based on page after page of my ramblings I (and some very experienced and dedicated others) are not just talkers...we are doers. I for one am willing to put in the effort knowing full well it may fail on the slim chance that a workable and mutually beneficial "plan" may emerge and be given it's chance. What is there to lose for the effort other than some time?.......Nothing !!

Cogs

[CTFF 65]

Cogs,

I think it is great that you are willing to work out a different plan then the one the mayor is pushing. You seem to be the only one from the volunteer side even advocating this. There are multiple parties that need to be a part of any discussion. The Mayor should not be waiting for us to work together he should be facilitating working together and that is not happening.

I wonder how you feel about Long Ridge being the structure for the SVFD when Belltown seems to be the best functioning volunteer dept in Stamford?

[FFPCogs 863]

Cogs,

I think it is great that you are willing to work out a different plan then the one the mayor is pushing. You seem to be the only one from the volunteer side even advocating this. There are multiple parties that need to be a part of any discussion. The Mayor should not be waiting for us to work together he should be facilitating working together and that is not happening.

What I am advocating is exploring every possible option to best serve the community. That really doesn't require facilitation by anyone other than those that are willing to do it. If and I'll be the first to admit that it is a huge if, a viable alternative emerges it can then be presented to all parties for their review and possible endorsement. This is not to say that the Mayor's plan is flawed or that I disagree with it, it just means that there may yet be an option that is better.

If nothing else getting together may at least dispel some of the rhetoric inspired animosity that exists....build the proverbial bridge if you will.

I wonder how you feel about Long Ridge being the structure for the SVFD when Belltown seems to be the best functioning volunteer dept in Stamford?

No need to wonder any further. I support it and can assure you that I will work faithfully to ensure that the best possible department is the end result under the Long Ridge structure. That being said I will also always keep an open mind and a willingness to work to find what may be a better arrangement.

Cogs

Edited December 30, 2010 by FFPCogs

[CTFF 65]

Cogs,

In my personal opinion unless the 6 fire depts, the paid drivers in Long Ridge and the Union sit down and create a plan that everyone agrees to no plan will be accepeted by all the parties. If everyone agrees to a plan how could the politicians say no? If the goal is to create the best fire service in Stamford shouldn't everyone be involved?

[FD828 77]

Cogs,

In my personal opinion unless the 6 fire depts, the paid drivers in Long Ridge and the Union sit down and create a plan that everyone agrees to no plan will be accepeted by all the parties. If everyone agrees to a plan how could the politicians say no? If the goal is to create the best fire service in Stamford shouldn't everyone be involved?

Only question is how do you get all parties together? Maybe if all the chiefs stayed home.......

[FFPCogs 863]

Cogs,

In my personal opinion unless the 6 fire depts, the paid drivers in Long Ridge and the Union sit down and create a plan that everyone agrees to no plan will be accepeted by all the parties. If everyone agrees to a plan how could the politicians say no? If the goal is to create the best fire service in Stamford shouldn't everyone be involved?

Absolutely CT everyone should be involved, but we have to start somewhere don't we? To paraphase a movie about another pipe dream "if you build it they will come". Maybe it will take some of us "breaking ranks" so to speak to get the ball rolling and the rest will follow. The truth is a good plan would be a good plan regardless of who develops it and it would be a far better plan if people from both "sides" were involved in it's creation. Idealistic? Naive? Possibly but as I've said before what have we got to lose? We can go on bit*hing and moaning or we can step up and at least try to come up with something better..if indeed something better even exists.

And just to reiterate another aspect...cooperation even on this small scale has the potential to relieve at least some of what divides us and show that there really is the potential to find and build on common ground. From there anything is possible. And that as far as I'm concerned is, in and of itself, worth the effort.

Take care and Stay Safe

Cogs

Edited December 31, 2010 by FFPCogs

[Geppetto 31]

Here's a wrinkle -

Police investigate fire chiefs' scuffle

John Nickerson

Stamford Advocate

December 30, 2010

STAMFORD -- A scuffle between a volunteer fire chief and a Stamford Fire & Rescue deputy chief at the scene of a fire call nine days ago is under police investigation....

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/policereports/article/Police-investigate-fire-chiefs-scuffle-929338.php

[Geppetto 31]

Make that two -

North Stamford fire stirs controversy

12/30/2010

By TOM EVANS

Stamford Times

STAMFORD -- A Christmas night fire on Wallenberg Drive that took more than 16 hours to bring under control has again stirred up issues of what fire coverage will mean under the plan proposed by Mayor Michael Pavia....

http://www.thestamfordtimes.com/story/496826

&

Keatley: Christmas Blaze Exposes Fire Plan Flaw

By Chandra Johnson Greene

Stamford Patch

December 29, 2010

http://stamford.patch.com/articles/keatley-christmas-blaze-exposes-fire-plan-flaw

Edited December 31, 2010 by Geppetto

[firebuff860 54]

Here's a wrinkle -

Police investigate fire chiefs' scuffle

John Nickerson

Stamford Advocate

December 30, 2010

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/policereports/article/Police-investigate-fire-chiefs-scuffle-929338.php

While I find this Stamford situation interesting, there are obviously 2 sides to each and every story that we have read. In regards to this article, unless the Union Pres was on scene, how can he say the career chief did not push the volunteer chief? If he was on scene and witnessed the whole arguement, I apologize. It just seems each faction is making this whole situation worse call by call by going to the papers after every incident.

[FFPCogs 863]

It just seems each faction is making this whole situation worse call by call by going to the papers after every incident.

Amen !!

Bad press is bad press and all of it does none of us any good.

Cogs

[jcoppola 52]

Here's an idea...maybe all of the clashing Stamford companies should race to the scene, have a fist fight in front of the house, then the winners of the fight can then have the scene and fight the fire. Sound ridiculous? So does what is coming out of some of these incidents in Stamford lately. Someone needs to get control of this situation before civilians or our own get hurt or killed. If this isn't a call for action, then I do not know what is!

On another note...this alleged "pushing incident" seems to me to be yet another case of The Springdale Chief trying to call attention to himself and starting trouble with SFRD guys. Rewind...cameras in the firehouse, accusing career members of theft, blocking out fire apparatus from "his" firehouse...list is long and distinguished, Absolutely ridiculous and it needs to stop!

[TRex 9]

While I find this Stamford situation interesting, there are obviously 2 sides to each and every story that we have read. In regards to this article, unless the Union Pres was on scene, how can he say the career chief did not push the volunteer chief? If he was on scene and witnessed the whole arguement, I apologize. It just seems each faction is making this whole situation worse call by call by going to the papers after every incident.

A little background on this issue as of late. This is not the first time this loose cannon running around in Springdale has had an altercation with any authority from SFRD. He is nothing but an antagonistic wanna be. He has had verbal altercations with almost every deputy chief, asst. chief, chief, and a number of different captains including me. The Chief of the SFRD has been keeping a file on the lunatic in Springdale for the past 8 to 10 years.

Now there was going to be a kangaroo court assembled on the part of the complainant, until a number of other witnesses stepped up and demanded to be heard against the lunatic. Then the file compiled by the SFRD was presented and the whole matter is going away.

This guy has been quoted saying that if he is not the pick for chief of the new organization, then Springdale is out of it.

[TRex 9]

Here's an idea...maybe all of the clashing Stamford companies should race to the scene, have a fist fight in front of the house, then the winners of the fight can then have the scene and fight the fire. Sound ridiculous? So does what is coming out of some of these incidents in Stamford lately. Someone needs to get control of this situation before civilians or our own get hurt or killed. If this isn't a call for action, then I do not know what is!

On another note...this alleged "pushing incident" seems to me to be yet another case of The Springdale Chief trying to call attention to himself and starting trouble with SFRD guys. Rewind...cameras in the firehouse, accusing career members of theft, blocking out fire apparatus from "his" firehouse...list is long and distinguished, Absolutely ridiculous and it needs to stop!

I agree Cap. However, on a selfish note, I say give him anough rope to hang himself, and demonstrate to the powers that be what type of person may be involved in the new organization. Better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.