Update on Stamford Merger

[spin_the_wheel 460]

"I'm 60 I don't get called names" I guess he doesnt want to manage a ball club again.

[Geppetto 31]

Welcome to the Big Leagues. I guess people concerned about their livelihoods don't deserve a seat at the table. Just sit in the back and we'll call on you if we have any questions.

Buehler? Buehler? Anyone? Union?

Edited September 25, 2010 by Geppetto

[jcoppola 52]

Valentine needs to grow a set. I never could stand this clown. What does he expect? Based on his bogus recommendation, the livelihoods of brother and sister firefighters are in question. Of course they are mad. He doesn't like to be called names? Boo hoo. Wait until this plan that he suggested flops. He won't be liking what people are saying about him then.

What a freaking joke this is!

[TRex 9]

Well what seems to have been a hot topic for the past 5 -6 months has cooled down some. I wonder why? What with the new Governor supporting real fire fighters and realizing there was a problem a long time ago in the overall fire service in Stamford, I wonder why the so called experts (Whitbread, Myannis, Fahan, Tiettelbaum, Cogs, Marino, Oh and lets not forget the Ace strategists Bennet, and Nau)have stopped weighing in on the issue. Not looking so good for them and the PLAN with the recent gubenatorial results. It ain't going to be so easy. I understand that support for the PLAN is waning.

Kudos to the Belltown FD. They are true volunteers and want to remain such. They are able to muster and turn out people. I give them credit, and they exemplify what is truly the issue. Let the volunteers be volunteers, and the paid be paid. No mix and match. Develop a harmonious agreement and let both sides negotiate for the good of the entire city, not just their territories or districts or fiefdoms what ever. In my view, this whole reorganization starting from over 3 years ago has always been about money, getting the paid human resources under one agreement, command and control as it is supposed to be. I do not recall anyone suggesting that the volunteers be abolished, as they should not be.

Having been one myself some time ago, I am particularly upset with their current leadership and those of the past that are self serving themselves. They are apparently frustrated career fire fighters who could not get a job or did not want one, but want to be IN CHARGE of fire fighters. I do not know if it is not enough for them to command and administrate a true volunteer fire department or do they want to feather their own beds and seek getting a paid adminstrative position or were certain past paid employees of the Big 5 just not wanting to work for anyone but themselves and play the overtime game they did.

The first of the multi - million dollar lawsuits from the debacles that occured in Long Ridge are being filed as I understand. It seems that all the planets are coming into alignment against the self serving volunteer leaders(exception to Belltown FD Chief). The truth will prevail. I hope this sparks more commentary again, both for and against.

[FFPCogs 863]

Well what seems to have been a hot topic for the past 5 -6 months has cooled down some. I wonder why? What with the new Governor supporting real fire fighters and realizing there was a problem a long time ago in the overall fire service in Stamford, I wonder why the so called experts (Whitbread, Myannis, Fahan, Tiettelbaum, Cogs, Marino, Oh and lets not forget the Ace strategists Bennet, and Nau)have stopped weighing in on the issue. Not looking so good for them and the PLAN with the recent gubenatorial results. It ain't going to be so easy. I understand that support for the PLAN is waning.

Kudos to the Belltown FD. They are true volunteers and want to remain such. They are able to muster and turn out people. I give them credit, and they exemplify what is truly the issue. Let the volunteers be volunteers, and the paid be paid. No mix and match. Develop a harmonious agreement and let both sides negotiate for the good of the entire city, not just their territories or districts or fiefdoms what ever. In my view, this whole reorganization starting from over 3 years ago has always been about money, getting the paid human resources under one agreement, command and control as it is supposed to be. I do not recall anyone suggesting that the volunteers be abolished, as they should not be.

Having been one myself some time ago, I am particularly upset with their current leadership and those of the past that are self serving themselves. They are apparently frustrated career fire fighters who could not get a job or did not want one, but want to be IN CHARGE of fire fighters. I do not know if it is not enough for them to command and administrate a true volunteer fire department or do they want to feather their own beds and seek getting a paid adminstrative position or were certain past paid employees of the Big 5 just not wanting to work for anyone but themselves and play the overtime game they did.

The first of the multi - million dollar lawsuits from the debacles that occured in Long Ridge are being filed as I understand. It seems that all the planets are coming into alignment against the self serving volunteer leaders(exception to Belltown FD Chief). The truth will prevail. I hope this sparks more commentary again, both for and against.

There is one statement above all others that you have espoused here that exemplifies a MAJOR part of the problem, and that would be your view that only paid firefighters are " real " firefighters. NOTHING could be further from the truth. It is that prevalent attitude that in large part creates an unbridgeable divide. As I have stated many times before a paycheck does NOT guarantee the quaility, experience or dedication of a firefighter, it only guarantess that that firefighter gets a paycheck to perform a job.

You also feel it necessary to deride those who disagree with a career dominated department by calling us " so called experts " simply because we don't agree that the only role for Stamford's volunteers are as a " farm team " to the " real " fire department here. The fact is I never qualified myself in any way, shape or form as an expert, only as a member who, through my own experiences and research, developed a proposal that afforded the residents of this City quailty and standarized fire protection...while assuring EVERYONE kept their job. No other proposal did that...NONE.

As it stands a direction has been set, and work is steadily being done to ensure that it gets put into practice. That some or maybe even many may not agree with it is not only their right but an expected part of the process. As for our new Governor, he has little if anything to say about it. (The copy of the State Statutes I have says only that the voters of the area to be affected by the creation of a taxing district will determine whether or not such a district is created...not the State Legislature and surely not the Governor).

On one thing we do agree though...this whole debacle is in large part about money, but not just the VFDs money. A look back reveals how this current stage of the ongoing situation developed. The take it or leave it consolidation as dreamt up by the former administration we were told was meant to save money...$500,000 in VFD overtime if memory serves. Yet in the very fiscal year that the former career personnel of the VFDs were absorbed to " save money ", SFRD was clamoring for an aditional $400,000+ plus to cover SFRD overtime costs.

Here's a quote from our local gem of a newpaper from May 2010 to show that even 2 years later there has been NO reduction in overtime even now.

Stamford fire, police chiefs say more overtime costs likely

Magdalene Perez, Staff Writer

Published: 09:59 p.m., Tuesday, May 25, 2010

STAMFORD -- After months of seeing overtime funding requests cut by the Board of Finance, the city's public safety leaders said another round is likely before the end of the fiscal year.

Both the police and fire departments have surpassed their overtime budgets, and have come begging for additional funding on a monthly basis since March. Each time, the city's fiscal board reduced their requests by six-figure sums.

To date, the board has approved $1,125,000 for police and $675,000 for fire, compared to the departments' requests of $1,811,625 and $1,179,154, respectively. The money is in addition to that funded in the departments' budgets, $3 million for police and $1.8 million for fire in the current year.

So it would seem we were sold a bill of goods to justify the merger which began this debacle as evidenced by the FACT that we have seen NO savings even though the manpower aspect of the merger plan has been in place since 2008. And no matter how you slice it that little tidbit speaks for itself.

No matter what there WILL BE a change and to be sure everyone will be unhappy with at least some part of it. That being the case and if in fact public safety is our true goal then it is high time we move on and MAKE IT WORK.

_____________

Peter Cogliano

Firefighter

Belltown FD / Camp Leatherneck FD, Afghanistan

Edited November 12, 2010 by FFPCogs

[x152 179]

Pete:

Any chance you can explain how an article about budget shortfalls and the former Mayor's need to consolidate personnel have any relation?

You stated that you have some FACTS that show that there has been no savings under the consolidation of career employees, I was curious to know where the facts came from?

I hope it is not solely based upon some unrelated article about insufficient budgetary funding in the local newspaper.

If you also want to do some research, you will find that those "fiscally responsible" folks chose to significantly reduce the Police and Fire overtime budgets well beyond what the respective Department heads requested and clearly demonstrated would be required.

Given that most staffing issues are driven from contact language (that was agreed upon by City Boards), the Chiefs responsible for budgeting are usually pretty good and determining what would be needed for the upcoming year (factoring in wage requirements, staffing vacancies, etc.) Yet, the BOF choses to significantly underfund the overtime budget.

This is the definition of Manufactured Crisis and this little "blame-game" has been going for years and has little (or nothing) to do with a merger of career employees two and half years ago. It has everything to do with politics and people posturing for useless sound-bites and headlines and using no common sense when it comes to paying for contractually obligated costs. Kind of similar to all of those politicians blaming State employees for their pensions, but for years, the same Politicians failed to fund pensions systems to the amounts that their actuaries told them would be needed.

It apparently can also serve and give play-time for the agenda of those with their definite allergy and prejudice to anything "Stamford Fire Rescue".

Kind of silly for anyone to ignore Department's heads projections by hundreds of thousands of dollars and then criticize the same agencies and managers when the money that was not properly funded to begin with runs out.

Although you were not present, the fiscal records were crystal clear prior to the merger of any career employees that Fire Fighters under the previous two-tiered system were costing upwards (and over) $20,000 annually for the same position north of those heathens downtown.

The process to fix the issue may have been uglier and more contentious than that of one to create a National Health Care System, but please do not malign the history or fact that the old system had significant problems with regard to career employee cost, accountability and management.

Does an opinion based upon the quoted Advocate article also mean that the Stamford Police Department should be split into two Police agencies functioning with the same City? or does the standard just apply to Stamford Fire?

Thanks-

Edited November 12, 2010 by x152

[Monty 35]

Here's a quote from our local gem of a newpaper from May 2010 to show that even 2 years later there has been NO reduction in overtime even now.

Stamford fire, police chiefs say more overtime costs likely

Magdalene Perez, Staff Writer

Published: 09:59 p.m., Tuesday, May 25, 2010

STAMFORD -- After months of seeing overtime funding requests cut by the Board of Finance, the city's public safety leaders said another round is likely before the end of the fiscal year.

Both the police and fire departments have surpassed their overtime budgets, and have come begging for additional funding on a monthly basis since March. Each time, the city's fiscal board reduced their requests by six-figure sums.

So it would seem we were sold a bill of goods to justify the merger which began this debacle as evidenced by the FACT that we have seen NO savings even though the manpower aspect of the merger plan has been in place since 2008. And no matter how you slice it that little tidbit speaks for itself.

No matter what there WILL BE a change and to be sure everyone will be unhappy with at least some part of it. That being the case and if in fact public safety is our true goal then it is high time we move on and MAKE IT WORK.

_____________

Peter Cogliano

Firefighter

Belltown FD / Camp Leatherneck FD, Afghanistan

While I am not as knowledgeable on this topic as others here, my understanding is that a lot of this overtime is driven by staffing levels in the contract. I heard that SFRD was about 16 members short when the FF test was first announced earlier this year. I believe it is now about 20 under strength. As such overtimeis used to fill those minimum staffing levels.

Personally I suspect the Mayor is barring any hiring so that if the PLAN goes through, those 40 or so SFRD FF's that would be impacted by the new plan would fill those spots. Maybe if it really turns out that this plan is less likely to go through, then the city can hire to fill those spots and in turn reduce the overtime costs.

[348 4]

Monty- It would appear your view of Stamford politics is much clearer from northern Westchester than it is from northern Stamford.

[TRex 9]

While I am not as knowledgeable on this topic as others here, my understanding is that a lot of this overtime is driven by staffing levels in the contract. I heard that SFRD was about 16 members short when the FF test was first announced earlier this year. I believe it is now about 20 under strength. As such overtimeis used to fill those minimum staffing levels.

Personally I suspect the Mayor is barring any hiring so that if the PLAN goes through, those 40 or so SFRD FF's that would be impacted by the new plan would fill those spots. Maybe if it really turns out that this plan is less likely to go through, then the city can hire to fill those spots and in turn reduce the overtime costs.

As fate would have it, I happen to have been made aware that exactly what was just said is going to happen. Unfortunately, or fortunately which ever way you want to look at it, ten men being readied to hit the fire house floors would not happen for at least 6 months from now. So the OT is still going to be there. And as far as OT, you are correct, the contract drives those numbers, which are not arbitrary numbers.

The current city administration in my opinion has no concept of labor law, and feel they can just reduce numbers because it looks good on paper. Not so. This city is getting larger, not smaller, and its public safety needs to grow along with it. There is no magic to this, just pure common sense. The ones crying are the ones who are not getting any. Sorry. Why isn't the police OT critisized? Thats because they do not have detractors to their operation like the FD does who try to use it as justification for their wild rantings on how it can be done by them cheaper and better.

Organized professionals wake up. The mood now is PRIVITIZATION. If it can be proposed to the extent it is being done with the FD now, what makes you think it can't be done with any aspect of public safety or operation. The ban of misfits and self servers that refer to themselves as the New Stamford Volunteer Fire Department are exactly that, private, like Wackenhut Security or Rural Metro. This is not a new concept. It is a failed concept and that is what will happen here if it becomes reality. There is word for you, REALITY.

Now there's an oxy-moron for you. The new Stamford Volunteer FD. The City of Stamford - 4th largest city in the state with 118,000 people (not including the commuters into the city) equated with Volunteer FD. NEW - all of you volunteers that did not want to give up your autonomy, guess what. In order to have the NEW Volunteer FD, the OLD ones need to disban. So you did not want to organize under one operation comprised of professionals, you want to organize under other non-professionals like yourselves already. Wake the F*@$ up.

A point of fact, volunteer fire organizations make up over 70% of the fire service in the country. Another point of fact, paid or career fire organizations however, make up over 90% of serving populations of over 50,000 people. HELLO McFLY. Look it up NFPA, and the USFA surveys. "Just the facts Mame,..just the facts"

Thank God for the citizens of Stamford that Dan Malloy won the election. God save the fire service.

[TRex 9]

Pete:

Any chance you can explain how an article about budget shortfalls and the former Mayor's need to consolidate personnel have any relation?

You stated that you have some FACTS that show that there has been no savings under the consolidation of career employees, I was curious to know where the facts came from?

I hope it is not solely based upon some unrelated article about insufficient budgetary funding in the local newspaper.

If you also want to do some research, you will find that those "fiscally responsible" folks chose to significantly reduce the Police and Fire overtime budgets well beyond what the respective Department heads requested and clearly demonstrated would be required.

Given that most staffing issues are driven from contact language (that was agreed upon by City Boards), the Chiefs responsible for budgeting are usually pretty good and determining what would be needed for the upcoming year (factoring in wage requirements, staffing vacancies, etc.) Yet, the BOF choses to significantly underfund the overtime budget.

This is the definition of Manufactured Crisis and this little "blame-game" has been going for years and has little (or nothing) to do with a merger of career employees two and half years ago. It has everything to do with politics and people posturing for useless sound-bites and headlines and using no common sense when it comes to paying for contractually obligated costs. Kind of similar to all of those politicians blaming State employees for their pensions, but for years, the same Politicians failed to fund pensions systems to the amounts that their actuaries told them would be needed.

It apparently can also serve and give play-time for the agenda of those with their definite allergy and prejudice to anything "Stamford Fire Rescue".

Kind of silly for anyone to ignore Department's heads projections by hundreds of thousands of dollars and then criticize the same agencies and managers when the money that was not properly funded to begin with runs out.

Although you were not present, the fiscal records were crystal clear prior to the merger of any career employees that Fire Fighters under the previous two-tiered system were costing upwards (and over) $20,000 annually for the same position north of those heathens downtown.

The process to fix the issue may have been uglier and more contentious than that of one to create a National Health Care System, but please do not malign the history or fact that the old system had significant problems with regard to career employee cost, accountability and management.

Does an opinion based upon the quoted Advocate article also mean that the Stamford Police Department should be split into two Police agencies functioning with the same City? or does the standard just apply to Stamford Fire?

Thanks-

Now that is a PROFESSIONAL responce from an educated, intelligent professional. Mr. Cogs, you are correct about your being twisted by my comments of real fire fighters. Real fire fighters deal with facts, truths, and reality. My professional brother who posted this response to you seems to have just gotten real with you, and placed a challenge at your feet.

My remarks in my post effected exactly what I wanted it to do. To bring out the discussion and shed the light on TRUTH,FACTS,REALITY, things that fire fighters need to adress and react to every day. If they don't, it could get very ugly in the REAL DEAL. I am surprised that someone of your experience out in camp leatherneck Afghanistan does not realize this. I will not take away from you your service for all of us, but come on man, wake up. If this post by my colleague does not wake all of you up, then you all truly have your heads up your A#@$es.

[FFPCogs 863]

Now that is a PROFESSIONAL responce from an educated, intelligent professional. Mr. Cogs, you are correct about your being twisted by my comments of real fire fighters. Real fire fighters deal with facts, truths, and reality. My professional brother who posted this response to you seems to have just gotten real with you, and placed a challenge at your feet.

My remarks in my post effected exactly what I wanted it to do. To bring out the discussion and shed the light on TRUTH,FACTS,REALITY, things that fire fighters need to adress and react to every day. If they don't, it could get very ugly in the REAL DEAL. I am surprised that someone of your experience out in camp leatherneck Afghanistan does not realize this. I will not take away from you your service for all of us, but come on man, wake up. If this post by my colleague does not wake all of you up, then you all truly have your heads up your A#@$es.

Yes indeed a wondferfully erudite response by 152, yet the fact remains that there has been NO $500,000 savings in overtime which we were assured there would be once all career firefighters were merged into SFRD. The conditions cited as the basis for that merger, which is what started all this, have not, nor could they ever have been met. That is the TRUTH, FACT and REALITY of the situation...and you don't need to be " out in Afghanistan " or need " experience " to see that.

Cogs

[Geppetto 31]

There seems to be some new discussion in regards to the Stamford Plan. As a long term provider of the press that has hit this forum, the election of a new governor in Connecticut seems to be what prompted this "new" wave.

It is my understanding that the present proposal for a new "Stamford Volunteer Fire Department" is going to require the combination of the resources of the Long Ridge, Belltown, Turn of River and Springdale Fire Companies/Departments. As has been discussed so MANY times, each of these separate agencies exist as legally formed bodies and are given sovereignty over their areas. The City of Stamford charter recognizes their existence and provides funding, to whatever extent, for them to operate. That being said, and it is well known, that funding is one of the major issues. How well, the city provides that funding, has been at odds seemingly forever.

What has not been discussed, and appears to be may be lost on some, is that the existence of the above listed companies/departments, comes from being chartered by the State of Connecticut. Like any corporation, paperwork must be filed at the state level and a hefty amount of i's dotted and t's crossed before the state issues the associated documentation. As is similar in most states, the combination, consolidation, merging or termination of these corporations, would require some "paperwork" at the state level. And with that in mind, it appears that the creation of a new SVFD existence charter would also require some assistance at the state level. Perhaps the changing of the guard in Hartford will indeed have an effect on this latest proposal.

Just as Pete Townshend wrote it - "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

[x152 179]

Not for nothing.....but has Geppetto finally spoken? Really?

The silence has been broken and perhaps now we many finally find out the true identity of this infamous string-puller!

PS - if we could all add a bit of sense of humor to some of our rants (myself included), we could surely increase the civility of our discussions.

[Bnechis 3,961]

There is one statement above all others that you have espoused here that exemplifies a MAJOR part of the problem, and that would be your view that only paid firefighters are " real " firefighters. NOTHING could be further from the truth. It is that prevalent attitude that in large part creates an unbridgeable divide. As I have stated many times before a paycheck does NOT guarantee the quaility, experience or dedication of a firefighter, it only guarantess that that firefighter gets a paycheck to perform a job.

You are correct a paycheck does NOT guarantee the quaility, experience or dedication of a firefighter. But it does guarantee someone (a trained firefighter) will show up when you call 911. In North Stamford that clearly does not happen with out them.

On one thing we do agree though...this whole debacle is in large part about money, but not just the VFDs money.

Yes money is a major motivation here, but if a dept or depts can not manage to put a team on the field and every fire results in a total loss, the money is of much less concern. Particularly if the FD ends up spending potential staffing money on lawyers and lawsuits.

[FFPCogs 863]

Not for nothing.....but has Geppetto finally spoken? Really?

The silence has been broken and perhaps now we many finally find out the true identity of this infamous string-puller!

PS - if we could all add a bit of sense of humor to some of our rants (myself included), we could surely increase the civility of our discussions.

It may yet turn out that we are not as far apart in our views on things as it may seem. But for sure I can say that after reading his post I was thinking the exact same thing...the mysterious and powerful puppet master Geppetto has finally spoken. Will wonders never cease.

Cogs

[FFPCogs 863]

You are correct a paycheck does NOT guarantee the quaility, experience or dedication of a firefighter. But it does guarantee someone (a trained firefighter) will show up when you call 911. In North Stamford that clearly does not happen with out them.

I for one have never advocated anything other than a combination of paid and volunteer personnel to guarantee that there is an adequate pool of trained firefighters responding to every call. I just don't see that as meaning we need career firefighters 24/7 in every house, or even most of them outside of downtown. I can only say that the vast majority of you are well aware of my proposed "fix" for the problem and by and large don't like it because it doesn't fully support any single one of the many competing agendas at work here yet addresses them all.

Yes money is a major motivation here, but if a dept or depts can not manage to put a team on the field and every fire results in a total loss, the money is of much less concern. Particularly if the FD ends up spending potential staffing money on lawyers and lawsuits.

Agreed

Cogs

Edited November 12, 2010 by FFPCogs

[Bnechis 3,961]

I for one have never advocated anything other than a combination of paid and volunteer personnel to guarantee that there is an adequate pool of trained firefighters responding to every call. I just don't see that as meaning we need career firefighters 24/7 in every house, or even most of them outside of downtown.

You are correct, it does not mean that you need a career firefighters 24/7 in every house, or even most of them outside of downtown, if and this is the big "IF" the volunteers show up. since they have not been, then its unfair to the taxpayers who have been told time and time again that they are covered when they are not and unfair and usafe for the UNDERSTAFFED career members who are left holding the bag.

Combination depts. in this region are just understaffed career depts., that justify the understaffing by claiming there are volunteers who fill the void. Thats fine if they actually have the training, the certification and they show up early enough to actually be of any use.

This does not mean there are not volunteers that can and do the job (some very well), but as a whole its been along time since there have been enough of these in No. Stamford.

[dragonrescue 28]

There seems to be some new discussion in regards to the Stamford Plan. As a long term provider of the press that has hit this forum, the election of a new governor in Connecticut seems to be what prompted this "new" wave.

It is my understanding that the present proposal for a new "Stamford Volunteer Fire Department" is going to require the combination of the resources of the Long Ridge, Belltown, Turn of River and Springdale Fire Companies/Departments. As has been discussed so MANY times, each of these separate agencies exist as legally formed bodies and are given sovereignty over their areas. The City of Stamford charter recognizes their existence and provides funding, to whatever extent, for them to operate. That being said, and it is well known, that funding is one of the major issues. How well, the city provides that funding, has been at odds seemingly forever.

What has not been discussed, and appears to be may be lost on some, is that the existence of the above listed companies/departments, comes from being chartered by the State of Connecticut. Like any corporation, paperwork must be filed at the state level and a hefty amount of i's dotted and t's crossed before the state issues the associated documentation. As is similar in most states, the combination, consolidation, merging or termination of these corporations, would require some "paperwork" at the state level. And with that in mind, it appears that the creation of a new SVFD existence charter would also require some assistance at the state level. Perhaps the changing of the guard in Hartford will indeed have an effect on this latest proposal.

Just as Pete Townshend wrote it - "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

RIGHT ON, MY MAN GEPETTOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.........hehehehehehehe

[dragonrescue 28]

GEPPETTO FOR PRESIDENT in 2012!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TRex 9]

You are correct, it does not mean that you need a career firefighters 24/7 in every house, or even most of them outside of downtown, if and this is the big "IF" the volunteers show up. since they have not been, then its unfair to the taxpayers who have been told time and time again that they are covered when they are not and unfair and usafe for the UNDERSTAFFED career members who are left holding the bag.

Combination depts. in this region are just understaffed career depts., that justify the understaffing by claiming there are volunteers who fill the void. Thats fine if they actually have the training, the certification and they show up early enough to actually be of any use.

This does not mean there are not volunteers that can and do the job (some very well), but as a whole its been along time since there have been enough of these in No. Stamford.

You are all welcome. I started the posting again because of all the latest developments of late. And thank you Geppetto for clarifying for the

Cogs that the new boss does indeed have an affect on the new plan. FACTS not opinions. Cogs, my last post gave kudos to Belltown for being volunteers that apparently function. You are right, you may not need 24/7 career in every house for now. But that is not what the New Volunteer system proposes.

[FD828 77]

You are correct, it does not mean that you need a career firefighters 24/7 in every house, or even most of them outside of downtown, if and this is the big "IF" the volunteers show up. since they have not been, then its unfair to the taxpayers who have been told time and time again that they are covered when they are not and unfair and usafe for the UNDERSTAFFED career members who are left holding the bag.

Combination depts. in this region are just understaffed career depts., that justify the understaffing by claiming there are volunteers who fill the void. Thats fine if they actually have the training, the certification and they show up early enough to actually be of any use.

This does not mean there are not volunteers that can and do the job (some very well), but as a whole its been along time since there have been enough of these in No. Stamford.

And after they hire some/most/all the dedicated volunteers who will volunteer then? Who is going to show up for the automatic fire alarm at 3am? I know that not every call is being answered now by the volunteer force at all hours of the day (aside from BFD). And yes i know that not all of the volunteers want to be paid/career firefighters before the yelling starts.

As for the overtime costs.... you can't say that there hasn't been a savings. The city refusing to hire firefighters to fill vacancies is what is driving up the OT. So perhaps if the city kept their end of the bargian then the OT wouldn't be what it is.

[FFPCogs 863]

You are all welcome. I started the posting again because of all the latest developments of late. And thank you Geppetto for clarifying for the

Cogs that the new boss does indeed have an affect on the new plan. FACTS not opinions.

OK Rexy just what exactly is the impact the Governor will have on all this? As I stated the creation of a taxing district is up to the voters that will be affected by it's creation, and it is the creation of a taxing district that is the cornerstone that will bring this new system into existence.

Here's a little light reading on the subject that I trust is factual since it comes from the State's website:

Sec. 7-301. Establishment of fire department. Any town may provide by ordinance for the protection of property within its limits from fire and for the establishment of a town fire department and for the management, discipline and control thereof by the board of selectmen or, if there is a town council, by the town council, or by a board of fire commissioners of such number, chosen in such manner and for such terms as the ordinance provides. The board of selectmen, town council or board of fire commissioners may make regulations for the conduct of the fire department and may appoint, discipline and remove for cause shown all employees of the department and purchase supplies and equipment necessary for its operation; provided, if the ordinance so provides, the board of selectmen, town council or board of fire commissioners shall enter into an agreement with any volunteer fire company or companies within the town for the protection thereof from fire on such conditions as to financial assistance and the observance of the regulations of the board of selectmen, town council or board of fire commissioners as such ordinance prescribes; and provided no town fire department established under the provisions of this section shall supersede any volunteer fire company which is the owner of any building, fire apparatus or other property without having first come to an agreement with such company with regard to the disposition of and compensation for such building, apparatus or other property. Such town may, at any meeting specially warned for the purpose, make appropriations and lay taxes for the support thereof; but this section shall not be operative within the limits of any city, borough or incorporated fire district which has an established fire department. Nothing in this section shall prevent any town, city, borough or incorporated fire district from appropriating funds to a volunteer fire company or companies for services rendered or to be rendered within the confines of such town, city, borough or district by such fire company or companies, provided such town, city, borough or incorporated fire district shall deem it in the public interest to do so.

and here's a bit more on the establishment of taxing districts

Sec. 7-325. Organization. Boundary changes. Reports. (A) Upon the petition of fifteen or more voters, as defined by section 7-6, of any town, specifying the limits of a proposed district for any or all of the purposes set forth in section 7-326, the selectmen of such town shall call a meeting of the voters residing within such specified limits to act upon such petition, which meeting shall be held at such place within such town and such hour as the selectmen designate, within thirty days after such petition has been received by such selectmen. Such limits shall contain only contiguous property, except any proposed district which is proposed to be established only to plan, lay out, acquire, construct, reconstruct, repair, maintain, operate and regulate the use of a community water system or to construct and maintain drains and sewers or both and which does not exercise any of the other powers enumerated in section 7-326, may contain noncontiguous properties if the properties proposed to be included are, or are to be, served by a common water or sewer main. Such meeting shall be called by publication of a written notice of the same, signed by the selectmen, at least fourteen days before the time fixed for such meeting in two successive issues of some newspaper published or circulated in such town. Not later than twenty-four hours before such meeting, (1) two hundred or more voters or ten per cent of the total number of voters, whichever is less, may petition the selectmen in writing for a referendum, or (2) the selectmen in their discretion may order a referendum, on the sole question of whether the proposed district should be established. Any such referendum shall be held not less than seven nor more than fourteen days after the receipt of such petition or the date of such order, on a day to be set by the selectmen for a vote by paper ballots or by a "yes" or "no" vote on the voting machines, during the hours between twelve o'clock noon and eight o'clock p.m.; except that any town may, by vote of its selectmen, provide for an earlier hour for opening the polls but not earlier than six o'clock a.m., notwithstanding the provisions of any special act to the contrary. If two-thirds of the voters casting votes in such referendum vote in favor of establishing the proposed district, the selectmen shall reconvene such meeting not later than seven days after the day on which the referendum is held. Upon approval of the petition for the proposed district by two-thirds of the voters present at such meeting, or if a referendum is held, upon the reconvening of such meeting after the referendum, the voters may name the district and, upon the vote of a majority of such voters, choose necessary officers therefor to hold office until the first annual meeting thereof; and the district shall, upon the filing of the first report required pursuant to subsection © of this section, thereupon be a body corporate and politic and have the powers, not inconsistent with the general statutes, in relation to the objects for which it was established, that are necessary for the accomplishment of such objects, including the power to lay and collect taxes. The clerk of such district shall cause its name and a description of its territorial limits and of any additions that may be made thereto to be recorded in the land records of each town in which such district is located.

( Any district may enlarge or reduce its territorial limits if the board of directors of the district approves a resolution proposing such an enlargement or reduction and stating the proposed boundaries of the area proposed to be included or excluded, as the case may be, provided: (1) The board of directors of the district shall call a meeting of voters of the area proposed to be included or excluded, which meeting shall be held within thirty days of the board of directors' approval of such resolution and shall be called by publication of a written notice of the same, signed by the members of the board of directors of the district, at least fourteen days before the time fixed for such meeting in two successive issues of some newspaper published or circulated in such town, provided not later than twenty-four hours before any such meeting, two hundred or more such voters or ten per cent of the total number of such voters, whichever is less, may petition the clerk of the district, in writing, that a referendum on the question of whether the area proposed to be included or excluded should join or leave the district be held in the manner provided in section 7-327; (2) a two-thirds majority of the voters of the area proposed to be included or excluded in attendance at such meeting, or, if a referendum is held, two-thirds of such voters casting votes in such referendum, vote in favor of joining or leaving such district; (3) that any area to be added is contiguous with some portion of the existing district, and (4) if the enlargement of the territorial limits of the district will overlap the territorial limits of another district within the town, the legislative body of the town approves such enlargement. If any district enlarges or reduces its territorial limits, the clerk of such district shall notify the town clerk of each town affected by such enlargement or reduction within thirty days after the vote.

©The clerk of each district created pursuant to this chapter or any provisions of the general statutes or any special act, shall report to the town clerk of each town in which such district is located: (1) If created by approval of a petition pursuant to subsection (a) of this section on or after July 1, 1987, within seven days of such approval; and (2) on or before July 31, 1993, and annually thereafter for each such district, irrespective of the date of creation. The first report filed after the creation of a district shall include a list of the officers of such district, a copy of the charter or special act of such district and such other information on the organization and the financial status of such district as the Secretary of the Office of Policy and Management may recommend. A copy of the charter or special act of such district shall be included in any subsequent report if such charter or special act was amended after the date of the previous filing. No district, irrespective of the date of creation, created by approval of a petition pursuant to subsection (a) of this section shall exist as a body corporate and politic until the clerk of such district has filed at least one report required by this subsection. If a district is located in more than one town, the report shall be filed by the district clerk with the town clerk of each town in which the district is located.

(D) Any fine imposed on and after July 1, 1992, on a clerk for failure to file a report required pursuant to subsection © of this section shall be waived.

See note to section 12-198. Cited. 122 C. 395. District must be a self-contained area. 145 C. 570. Only voters residing within area of proposed district may vote at organizational meeting. 184 C. 200. Cited. 197 C. 82. Cited. 205 C. 290. Cited. 208 C. 543. Cited. 218 C. 144.

Sec. 7-326. Purposes. At such meeting, the voters may establish a district for any or all of the following purposes: To extinguish fires, to light streets, to plant and care for shade and ornamental trees, to construct and maintain roads, sidewalks, crosswalks, drains and sewers, to appoint and employ watchmen or police officers, to acquire, construct, maintain and regulate the use of recreational facilities, to plan, lay out, acquire, construct, reconstruct, repair, maintain, supervise and manage a flood or erosion control system, to plan, lay out, acquire, construct, maintain, operate and regulate the use of a community water system, to collect garbage, ashes and all other refuse matter in any portion of such district and provide for the disposal of such matter, to implement tick control measures, to install highway sound barriers, to establish a zoning commission and a zoning board of appeals or a planning commission, or both, by adoption of chapter 124 or chapter 126, excluding section 8-29, or both chapters, as the case may be, which commissions or board shall be dissolved upon adoption by the town of subdivision or zoning regulations by the town planning or zoning commission; and to adopt building regulations, which regulations shall be superseded upon adoption by the town of building regulations. Any district may contract with a town, city, borough or other district for carrying out any of the purposes for which such district was established.

And here's another note which may impact future developments

Sec. 7-323t. Municipal contracts prohibiting paid emergency personnel from volunteer service. On and after June 5, 2008, no municipality shall enter into a contract that prohibits paid firefighters or paid emergency personnel of such municipality from serving as active members of a volunteer fire department in the municipality in which such firefighters or emergency personnel reside during personal time.

No BS, maybe I'm not comprehending what's the statutes say, if so my mistake and please correct me where wrong.

Thanks

Cogs

ps Don't mind the smiley for some reason that happens with the letter b in parentheses.

Edited November 13, 2010 by FFPCogs

[FFPCogs 863]

You are all welcome. I started the posting again because of all the latest developments of late. And thank you Geppetto for clarifying for the

Cogs that the new boss does indeed have an affect on the new plan. FACTS not opinions.

As Geppetto pointed out there will of course be paperwork and documentation involved in the creation of the " SVFD " but it will simply follow the established process, through the appropriate Boards, Commiteees and Departments that have long been in existence, to achieve that end..and nowhere does it say that the Governor is a part of that process. Chances are Dan will have a far harder time pushing his own agandas there than he did here especially when it comes to the fire service because unlike his previous tenure as mayor here Dan is now facing a completely different animal in Hartford. His Legislature there is full of representatives from cities and towns that not only staunchly represent their volunteer fire services but also enact statutes to provide for them.

Cogs, my last post gave kudos to Belltown for being volunteers that apparently function.

And you have my sincere thanks for doing so. My colleagues at the BFD have earned that respect by upholding the highest traditions and dedication to our craft which have always been at the core of our Department and the Fire Service. I can say with all candor, sincerity and pride that the Belltown Fire Department is just that...a fire department.

You are right, you may not need 24/7 career in every house for now. But that is not what the New Volunteer system proposes.

What has been proposed and how that proposal is ultimately enacted are two very different things.

Cogs

[FFPCogs 863]

And after they hire some/most/all the dedicated volunteers who will volunteer then? Who is going to show up for the automatic fire alarm at 3am? I know that not every call is being answered now by the volunteer force at all hours of the day (aside from BFD). And yes i know that not all of the volunteers want to be paid/career firefighters before the yelling starts.

A very good question and one that MUST be addressed if the " plan " is to be sucessfull. I have posted ad nauseum my ( and that of a few others) view on how to accomplish this and there are those who have influence that have now come to see the validity in that method. Whether or not that will be the answer to your question remains to be seen

As for the overtime costs.... you can't say that there hasn't been a savings. The city refusing to hire firefighters to fill vacancies is what is driving up the OT. So perhaps if the city kept their end of the bargian then the OT wouldn't be what it is.

Fair enough but regardless of the why, as we can now clearly see the entire premise of the merger was flawed to begin with and hence led to the current situation.

Cogs

[TRex 9]

OK Rexy just what exactly is the impact the Governor will have on all this? As I stated the creation of a taxing district is up to the voters that will be affected by it's creation, and it is the creation of a taxing district that is the cornerstone that will bring this new system into existence.

Here's a little light reading on the subject that I trust is factual since it comes from the State's website:

Sec. 7-301. Establishment of fire department. Any town may provide by ordinance for the protection of property within its limits from fire and for the establishment of a town fire department and for the management, discipline and control thereof by the board of selectmen or, if there is a town council, by the town council, or by a board of fire commissioners of such number, chosen in such manner and for such terms as the ordinance provides. The board of selectmen, town council or board of fire commissioners may make regulations for the conduct of the fire department and may appoint, discipline and remove for cause shown all employees of the department and purchase supplies and equipment necessary for its operation; provided, if the ordinance so provides, the board of selectmen, town council or board of fire commissioners shall enter into an agreement with any volunteer fire company or companies within the town for the protection thereof from fire on such conditions as to financial assistance and the observance of the regulations of the board of selectmen, town council or board of fire commissioners as such ordinance prescribes; and provided no town fire department established under the provisions of this section shall supersede any volunteer fire company which is the owner of any building, fire apparatus or other property without having first come to an agreement with such company with regard to the disposition of and compensation for such building, apparatus or other property. Such town may, at any meeting specially warned for the purpose, make appropriations and lay taxes for the support thereof; but this section shall not be operative within the limits of any city, borough or incorporated fire district which has an established fire department. Nothing in this section shall prevent any town, city, borough or incorporated fire district from appropriating funds to a volunteer fire company or companies for services rendered or to be rendered within the confines of such town, city, borough or district by such fire company or companies, provided such town, city, borough or incorporated fire district shall deem it in the public interest to do so.

and here's a bit more on the establishment of taxing districts

Sec. 7-325. Organization. Boundary changes. Reports. (A) Upon the petition of fifteen or more voters, as defined by section 7-6, of any town, specifying the limits of a proposed district for any or all of the purposes set forth in section 7-326, the selectmen of such town shall call a meeting of the voters residing within such specified limits to act upon such petition, which meeting shall be held at such place within such town and such hour as the selectmen designate, within thirty days after such petition has been received by such selectmen. Such limits shall contain only contiguous property, except any proposed district which is proposed to be established only to plan, lay out, acquire, construct, reconstruct, repair, maintain, operate and regulate the use of a community water system or to construct and maintain drains and sewers or both and which does not exercise any of the other powers enumerated in section 7-326, may contain noncontiguous properties if the properties proposed to be included are, or are to be, served by a common water or sewer main. Such meeting shall be called by publication of a written notice of the same, signed by the selectmen, at least fourteen days before the time fixed for such meeting in two successive issues of some newspaper published or circulated in such town. Not later than twenty-four hours before such meeting, (1) two hundred or more voters or ten per cent of the total number of voters, whichever is less, may petition the selectmen in writing for a referendum, or (2) the selectmen in their discretion may order a referendum, on the sole question of whether the proposed district should be established. Any such referendum shall be held not less than seven nor more than fourteen days after the receipt of such petition or the date of such order, on a day to be set by the selectmen for a vote by paper ballots or by a "yes" or "no" vote on the voting machines, during the hours between twelve o'clock noon and eight o'clock p.m.; except that any town may, by vote of its selectmen, provide for an earlier hour for opening the polls but not earlier than six o'clock a.m., notwithstanding the provisions of any special act to the contrary. If two-thirds of the voters casting votes in such referendum vote in favor of establishing the proposed district, the selectmen shall reconvene such meeting not later than seven days after the day on which the referendum is held. Upon approval of the petition for the proposed district by two-thirds of the voters present at such meeting, or if a referendum is held, upon the reconvening of such meeting after the referendum, the voters may name the district and, upon the vote of a majority of such voters, choose necessary officers therefor to hold office until the first annual meeting thereof; and the district shall, upon the filing of the first report required pursuant to subsection © of this section, thereupon be a body corporate and politic and have the powers, not inconsistent with the general statutes, in relation to the objects for which it was established, that are necessary for the accomplishment of such objects, including the power to lay and collect taxes. The clerk of such district shall cause its name and a description of its territorial limits and of any additions that may be made thereto to be recorded in the land records of each town in which such district is located.

( Any district may enlarge or reduce its territorial limits if the board of directors of the district approves a resolution proposing such an enlargement or reduction and stating the proposed boundaries of the area proposed to be included or excluded, as the case may be, provided: (1) The board of directors of the district shall call a meeting of voters of the area proposed to be included or excluded, which meeting shall be held within thirty days of the board of directors' approval of such resolution and shall be called by publication of a written notice of the same, signed by the members of the board of directors of the district, at least fourteen days before the time fixed for such meeting in two successive issues of some newspaper published or circulated in such town, provided not later than twenty-four hours before any such meeting, two hundred or more such voters or ten per cent of the total number of such voters, whichever is less, may petition the clerk of the district, in writing, that a referendum on the question of whether the area proposed to be included or excluded should join or leave the district be held in the manner provided in section 7-327; (2) a two-thirds majority of the voters of the area proposed to be included or excluded in attendance at such meeting, or, if a referendum is held, two-thirds of such voters casting votes in such referendum, vote in favor of joining or leaving such district; (3) that any area to be added is contiguous with some portion of the existing district, and (4) if the enlargement of the territorial limits of the district will overlap the territorial limits of another district within the town, the legislative body of the town approves such enlargement. If any district enlarges or reduces its territorial limits, the clerk of such district shall notify the town clerk of each town affected by such enlargement or reduction within thirty days after the vote.

©The clerk of each district created pursuant to this chapter or any provisions of the general statutes or any special act, shall report to the town clerk of each town in which such district is located: (1) If created by approval of a petition pursuant to subsection (a) of this section on or after July 1, 1987, within seven days of such approval; and (2) on or before July 31, 1993, and annually thereafter for each such district, irrespective of the date of creation. The first report filed after the creation of a district shall include a list of the officers of such district, a copy of the charter or special act of such district and such other information on the organization and the financial status of such district as the Secretary of the Office of Policy and Management may recommend. A copy of the charter or special act of such district shall be included in any subsequent report if such charter or special act was amended after the date of the previous filing. No district, irrespective of the date of creation, created by approval of a petition pursuant to subsection (a) of this section shall exist as a body corporate and politic until the clerk of such district has filed at least one report required by this subsection. If a district is located in more than one town, the report shall be filed by the district clerk with the town clerk of each town in which the district is located.

(D) Any fine imposed on and after July 1, 1992, on a clerk for failure to file a report required pursuant to subsection © of this section shall be waived.

See note to section 12-198. Cited. 122 C. 395. District must be a self-contained area. 145 C. 570. Only voters residing within area of proposed district may vote at organizational meeting. 184 C. 200. Cited. 197 C. 82. Cited. 205 C. 290. Cited. 208 C. 543. Cited. 218 C. 144.

Sec. 7-326. Purposes. At such meeting, the voters may establish a district for any or all of the following purposes: To extinguish fires, to light streets, to plant and care for shade and ornamental trees, to construct and maintain roads, sidewalks, crosswalks, drains and sewers, to appoint and employ watchmen or police officers, to acquire, construct, maintain and regulate the use of recreational facilities, to plan, lay out, acquire, construct, reconstruct, repair, maintain, supervise and manage a flood or erosion control system, to plan, lay out, acquire, construct, maintain, operate and regulate the use of a community water system, to collect garbage, ashes and all other refuse matter in any portion of such district and provide for the disposal of such matter, to implement tick control measures, to install highway sound barriers, to establish a zoning commission and a zoning board of appeals or a planning commission, or both, by adoption of chapter 124 or chapter 126, excluding section 8-29, or both chapters, as the case may be, which commissions or board shall be dissolved upon adoption by the town of subdivision or zoning regulations by the town planning or zoning commission; and to adopt building regulations, which regulations shall be superseded upon adoption by the town of building regulations. Any district may contract with a town, city, borough or other district for carrying out any of the purposes for which such district was established.

And here's another note which may impact future developments

Sec. 7-323t. Municipal contracts prohibiting paid emergency personnel from volunteer service. On and after June 5, 2008, no municipality shall enter into a contract that prohibits paid firefighters or paid emergency personnel of such municipality from serving as active members of a volunteer fire department in the municipality in which such firefighters or emergency personnel reside during personal time.

No BS, maybe I'm not comprehending what's the statutes say, if so my mistake and please correct me where wrong.

Thanks

Cogs

ps Don't mind the smiley for some reason that happens with the letter b in parentheses.

OK Cogsy ol' boy, here it is. First let me state that I do not intend on coming off as a fire house lawyer, nor want to take up much of this forums space and participants time in waging a legal arguement that neither of us I think are qualified to do so. However, I have already done the "light" reading to which you refer quite some time ago which includes a review of an article entitled "Towns with in a Town" authored by an attorney who specializes in government law, Allan Cohen, P.C. clearly explains in laymans terms both the Pros and Cons of the law. I will provide a few excerpts from this publishing, both pro and con for the sake of fairness.

Secondly, I hope no one is so naieve as to think that after being Mayor of a city for 14 years that there are not any political allies still on the Democratically controled board of reps. And you may or may not be accurate on the political climate in Hartford, but the fact still remains, the last I time I checked Governor out ranks Mayor. Thats fact.

Thirdly, can you explain the sentence your encitement of Sec. 7-301 that you colorized related to ...Such town may, at any meeting specially warned for the purpose, make appropriations and lay taxes for the support thereof; but this section shall not be operative within the limits of any city, borough or incorporated fire district which has an established fire department. I read this to mean that if a town, city etc. which is the City of Stamford already has a fire department. Does engine 7 having an agreement with SFCO and taxes being assessed the residents of that district constitue SFRD districY? It can be a gray area in the cases of 8's and 9's.

No for the excerpts - What Can Districts Do?

"State law makes relatively clear what districts can and cannot do

"In addition, tax districts cannot completely take over a function already performed by towns without their consent."

"Districts act autonomously and with little oversight by state or local authorities besides annually providing contact information and a basic fiscal report to town clerks. They are not bound by state or local codes regulating ethics, personnel policies, or contract bidding."

"Districts across Connecticut have annual budgets which vary from a few hundred dollars to several millions. They must base the taxes they levy upon the property valuations made by the assessors of the towns in which they are located, but they set their own mill rates. By law, districts have all of the same powers to collect their taxes as towns do and share equal priority with them. Districts must be independently audited on an annual basis. Most are managed by unpaid volunteers, although some have salaried officers, clerical staffs, or maintenance crews."

Benefits for Residents and Towns

Organizing as a special taxing district can produce a number of benefits for residents. In addition to providing the enhanced services which prompted its formation, the taxes imposed to pay for certain of those services are widely considered to be deductible from the residents' own federal income taxes. This deduction is generally understood as applicable only to taxes paid for the types of services which municipalities traditionally provide, such as trash collection and road repairs - not which property owners usually perform themselves, such as private landscaping and pool maintenance. Districts can also benefit towns by preventing a small group of residents from usurping taxes and resources from their neighbors who do not share their needs, and by coordinating with towns or other districts to efficiently concentrate municipal services where they are needed most. As a smaller, more discrete, and more focused unit of government, a district's leaders can be more responsive to the concerns of their constituency.

"Districts enjoy enhanced tools for avoiding budget shortfalls because their revenue is collected in the same way as are municipal taxes - including powerful recovery mechanisms, superior lien priority, and the full authority of government to compel payment. For example, while a residential association organized as a non-stock corporation might only be able to collect unpaid dues through foreclosure or other litigation, the same community organized as a taxing district can usually collect those debts by auctioning property or seizing bank accounts without ever having to file a lawsuit. In addition, unlike a private association, a district's own vehicles, office equipment, and other property in its name are ordinarily not taxable by the town in which it is located. Districts even enjoy "municipal immunity" from being sued for many of its activities"

Potential Drawbacks

"Of course, creating another layer of government may not necessarily be viewed by everyone a good thing. It can detract from the cohesiveness and coordination of local services programs while producing administrative expenses which diminish the other financial advantages. Also, even well-meaning district officers may be unfamiliar with laws regulating district activities, finances, and tax collections. If a district eventually chooses to terminate, (under a statutory procedure similar to that for creating one), the town in which it was located will automatically assume its leftover assets. The town therefore may, for example, have to repair the former district's facilities or bring its roads up to town standards. A few districts have been quite literally abandoned, and some others have been continued by their leadership despite that their residents wanted them to dissolve."

"In addition, the district's officers are effectively government officials who may need a different type of directors' insurance to protect them while performing their duties. Importantly, districts with annual revenues exceeding $250,000 are technically required to have minority political party representation on their managing boards, such that certain residents may be disqualified from office depending on the political affiliations of the sitting officers. This may make little sense for many types of communities – and even require that, as occurred in one case in the 1970s, a republican receiving fewer votes than a democrat must be declared the winner of an election to a board which already had the maximum proportion of democrats. This law is rarely enforced today, but some district elections have become surprisingly political and partisan, involving caucuses and complex nomination rules."

So you see, it may or may not be as easy as you point out to create a district, and may even be more restricting to maintain and run the district. What do you think the board of reps will think when they learn that they will have no say in how the fire protection for the special district is run. How long do you think it will be before the 40 -50 additional personnel decide to organize? What about contract negotiations, what about training facilities, what about vehicle maintainance, what about annual maks fit testing, what happens when the districts forces become overwhelmed, and need assistance? You can not just apply personnel costs to the plan to make it look attractive. The district becomes a completely different Town as far as fire fighting is concerned. How long do you think it will be when the tax payers in the downtown start complaining of the fire resources they pay for are continually being pulled north or be utilized by the district? What do you think the union is going to do if the resources downtown are always being pulled by the district?

I apologize for the length of this reply and will finish with this bit of information. The ISO has recently lowered that classification for the City overall because they previously looked at the down town which was 3 seperately from up north which was a 6 or 7 at least. Now the entire city is a 5.

[FD828 77]

Fair enough but regardless of the why, as we can now clearly see the entire premise of the merger was flawed to begin with and hence led to the current situation.

Cogs

I disagree. The "why" is extremely important. Perhaps the merger wouldn't be considered "flawed" if the current administration followed what the last was trying to accomplish. Increase fire protection for all residents of the city, increase staffing levels for North Stamford, and reduce costs. The current administration is to blame for any "flaws" in the merger.

[FFPCogs 863]

OK Cogsy ol' boy, here it is. First let me state that I do not intend on coming off as a fire house lawyer, nor want to take up much of this forums space and participants time in waging a legal arguement that neither of us I think are qualified to do so. However, I have already done the "light" reading to which you refer quite some time ago which includes a review of an article entitled "Towns with in a Town" authored by an attorney who specializes in government law, Allan Cohen, P.C. clearly explains in laymans terms both the Pros and Cons of the law. I will provide a few excerpts from this publishing, both pro and con for the sake of fairness.

Well then Rexy, that makes two of us, as I am no lawyer and don't claim to be one either. I fully agree that niether of us are qualified to make legal arguments here, so why bother trying. I'm also glad to hear that you have previously read the informative material supplied in my post....informed discussion is always better than the continual rote disgorging of all the party line propaganda that creeps it's way into these forums. I apologize for not quoting your entire response, but like you feel that in the interest of saving both time and space it is unnecessary. And kudos to you for your excerpts which do indeed present both sides of the coin as far as taxing districts go...thanks for the info.

Secondly, I hope no one is so naieve as to think that after being Mayor of a city for 14 years that there are not any political allies still on the Democratically controled board of reps. And you may or may not be accurate on the political climate in Hartford, but the fact still remains, the last I time I checked Governor out ranks Mayor. Thats fact.

Allies yes, and they may very well squash this plan, but as Governor he will have no overt direct involvement in this situation even if he does " outrank " the current Mayor

Thirdly, can you explain the sentence your encitement of Sec. 7-301 that you colorized related to ...Such town may, at any meeting specially warned for the purpose, make appropriations and lay taxes for the support thereof; but this section shall not be operative within the limits of any city, borough or incorporated fire district which has an established fire department. I read this to mean that if a town, city etc. which is the City of Stamford already has a fire department. Does engine 7 having an agreement with SFCO and taxes being assessed the residents of that district constitue SFRD districY? It can be a gray area in the cases of 8's and 9's.

My understanding ( and yes I'll be the first to admit that it is limited) is that SFCo is the AHJ of that district. As such they can rescind that agreement thereby removing E-7 and any claim SFRD has to Springdale being a part of their district. As I understand it this would also reduce the taxation in that distrct accordingly. 8 and 9 I believe fall within that same framework, but I could be mistaken on that.

So you see, it may or may not be as easy as you point out to create a district, and may even be more restricting to maintain and run the district. What do you think the board of reps will think when they learn that they will have no say in how the fire protection for the special district is run.

Well to believe all that has been said about how the VFDs have operated once funded by the BoR up to this point, it would seem that there would be little difference than it is now. The new district I'm sure will have it's own oversight in the form of a commission or some such body to whom the SVFD will have to answer since the residents tax dollars will go directly to the district which funds that FD.

How long do you think it will be before the 40 -50 additional personnel decide to organize?

I would expect and encourge them to do so immediately. Although that organization may not be L-786, they still need a collective voice to represent their common interests.

What about contract negotiations, what about training facilities, what about vehicle maintainance, what about annual maks fit testing, what happens when the districts forces become overwhelmed, and need assistance?

All of these important factors will fall in part or wholly under the discretion of the management of the SVFD. It will be the responsibility of the district Board of Directors and Fire Chief to ensure these are all addressed fully. To be fair though most if not all of this is currently done by the VFDs with the infastructure and administrations currently in place.

You can not just apply personnel costs to the plan to make it look attractive. The district becomes a completely different Town as far as fire fighting is concerned.

You are absolutely correct. Although personnel costs due constitute the majority of the pie, there is far more to running a successful fire department than manpower alone. The district will have to account for that to meet all the needs of the department and where applicable tax the residents accordingly.

How long do you think it will be when the tax payers in the downtown start complaining of the fire resources they pay for are continually being pulled north or be utilized by the district?

Well are they complaining now???

What do you think the union is going to do if the resources downtown are always being pulled by the district?

Their job

I apologize for the length of this reply and will finish with this bit of information. The ISO has recently lowered that classification for the City overall because they previously looked at the down town which was 3 seperately from up north which was a 6 or 7 at least. Now the entire city is a 5.

That's great news. Hopefully that ranking will improve further regardless of what " plan " is enacted

Cogs

[Bnechis 3,961]

I apologize for the length of this reply and will finish with this bit of information. The ISO has recently lowered that classification for the City overall because they previously looked at the down town which was 3 seperately from up north which was a 6 or 7 at least. Now the entire city is a 5.

Interesting. Now the properties downtown will pay an extra 16% but those with less protection than they use to have (back when they actually got on the road) will get an 8 - 16% reduction. SFRD should request a reevaluation. This is another example of why one dept. is needed, since now No. stamford will hurt the downtown (particularly the major tax paying companies & stores).

[Bnechis 3,961]

That's great news. Hopefully that ranking will improve further regardless of what " plan " is enacted

It did not improve, it was just averaged with a dept with a superior rating. If SRFD is smart it will appeal and ISO may seperate the ratings again.

[Geppetto 31]

I am surprised that both sides are intrigued that I have chosen to respond once again. I have on more than one occasion offered up both information and advice; my guess is that history is quickly forgotten. The fact remains that a new distinct facet of information was introduced, and as always, it is my belief that all parties should know as much information as possible, to make an educated conclusion.

Concerning information, a check of the minutes of the Long Ridge Fire Company; as they are posted on the Stamford Web page, shows an entry concerning the "Union" making inquiries under the FOIA. I just wonder if they will make more headway than the former evil empire/Malloy administration in gathering what they seek.

Back to oblivia -

http://www.cityofstamford.org/filestorage/25/64/1168/100757/122154/LRFC1110.pdf