Update on Stamford Merger

[Guest capnlinus]

Then you haven't been comprehending what you've been reading, but that is to be expected when one toes the party line so tightly they can't think for themselves. All I've gleaned from your diatribes is a load of regurgitated spoon fed propaganda mixed with quotes taken out of context time and again. But hey if that makes you feel better have at it, the truth speaks for itself despite your pathetic attempts to circumvent it.

To be honest, sir, one of the things I have never been legitimately accused of is being someone who blindly toes the line and is incapable of expressing an opinion or forming free thought. I have done a fair amount of research of all sides of this issue. First as a matter of interest, now as a matter of standing up and saying what I believe to be true. And that is I believe this plan to be political patronage and not even close to the best thing for the taxpayers.

I do however think this plan is a good thing for volunteers looking to be hired in house as career firefighters. Volunteers, sir, such as yourself. Your words, not mine.

I understand that after a trip to combination departments in MD you were one of three people to author a plan and submit it to Mr. Valentine's committee. A plan remarkably similar to the one being proposed by the Mayor. Can you address the veracity of what I was told? Because it certainly would add another layer of understanding about your support for this plan.

If you are looking for propaganda loosely based in fact sir, kindly take a closer look at that editorial link you posted earlier tonight.

I do not believe I have been attempting to circumvent the truth, rather I have been ardently looking for the real truth of the agendas being hidden here behind the charade that is the Mayor's plan. My thoughts sir, thought up all on my very own. Free will and everything.

Pathetic is a strong word. Especially coming from a person who so casually throws around the notion of taking a job at any, or anyone's, expense. Maybe it is me, but it seems the more questions you face about this plan, and your intentions if it is implemented, the angrier your responses get. Your quote above seems aimed at me on more a personal level than a factual airing of this issue.

[Goose 188]

Here's a link to an editorial in todays Advocate

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/opinion/article/Volunteer-chiefs-support-Mayor-Pavia-s-fire-plan-533060.php

Stay Safe

Cogs

_____________

Peter Cogliano

FF/ T.O.

Belltown Fire Dept

currently working with Dyncorp/LOGCAP IV

Camp Leatherneck

Afghanistan

So wait, how many houses did those guys let burn down again?

[JAD622 40]

I understand that after a trip to combination departments in MD you were one of three people to author a plan and submit it to Mr. Valentine's committee. A plan remarkably similar to the one being proposed by the Mayor. Can you address the veracity of what I was told? Because it certainly would add another layer of understanding about your support for this plan.

In all my years in the Fire Service what continues to amaze me is how critical decisions of how to provide the best fire protection to the public always seems to be made by those least qualified. Can someone please tell me how this so called "Plan" is devised by a group of people headed by a retired baseball coach and a small group of volunteers? If this isn't an example of broken politics and self serving agenda's then I don't know what is. Unfortunately, it will probably get wide public support simply because it is prefaced by misleading promises of better fire protection and reduced cost to taxpayers. Sadly, in the years ahead, when all the political "dust" settles and the ramifications of decimating the Stamford Fire Department become more apparent, those responsible will probably be long gone and someone else will start this insane process all over again! Hopefully, no lives will be lost along the way.

The fire service is systematically being dismantled by Politicians all over the Country under the guise of the financial crisis this country faces due to the dismal and inept leadership of those who control it's finances. We are being used as pawns to bear the brunt of the blame and the public easily buys into it. This is only the beginning and I fear it will get much worse. I can only be thankful that I am at the tail end of my career and feel bad for those who have just begun theirs. It's going to be a very rough ride and this is just one example of how bad decisions and ill conceived plans will continue to plague the fire service.

[Alpinerunner 61]

Can someone explain why this is such a big deal now? This is how the volunteer districts have operated forever. They hired their own employees, many of whom were volunteers, which makes sense because they have a huge head start on someone who is fresh. These employees also volunteer on their off time so you aren't just hiring a 40 hour employee. But that's besides the point. I don't get what is WRONG with the new plan in terms of fire protection. Why wasn't this an issue before the union forced it's way up north? How come everyone is freaking out only now, when they are being send back to the city?

Goose, they burned down a lot. What does that have to do with the new plan? Houses didn't burn down because they didn't care. They didn't burn down because they don't know how to fight a fire or from faulty equipment. They burned because of a lack of manpower, which this plan solves.

JAD622, I will ask the same question to you. You rail against this plan, governments, politicians, and the ignorant public... but ironically you don't actually criticize anything about the plan. Is that because you don't know what the plan is? Or is there actually no concrete problem besides lack of expansion for the union? No one is decimating the Stamford Fire Department, nor do they want to. Things are simply going back to what worked efficiently for 50 years, with some needed consolidation, standardization, and increased manpower.

[FD828 77]

Can someone explain why this is such a big deal now? This is how the volunteer districts have operated forever. They hired their own employees, many of whom were volunteers, which makes sense because they have a huge head start on someone who is fresh. These employees also volunteer on their off time so you aren't just hiring a 40 hour employee. But that's besides the point. I don't get what is WRONG with the new plan in terms of fire protection. Why wasn't this an issue before the union forced it's way up north? How come everyone is freaking out only now, when they are being send back to the city?

Goose, they burned down a lot. What does that have to do with the new plan? Houses didn't burn down because they didn't care. They didn't burn down because they don't know how to fight a fire or from faulty equipment. They burned because of a lack of manpower, which this plan solves.

JAD622, I will ask the same question to you. You rail against this plan, governments, politicians, and the ignorant public... but ironically you don't actually criticize anything about the plan. Is that because you don't know what the plan is? Or is there actually no concrete problem besides lack of expansion for the union? No one is decimating the Stamford Fire Department, nor do they want to. Things are simply going back to what worked efficiently for 50 years, with some needed consolidation, standardization, and increased manpower.

It is a big deal because that system did NOT work. It is 2010 for God's sake. Time to get with the program. And as far as the paid personnel volunteering in their off time... IT IS ILLEGAL! (if at the same department they work for... or is that the plan.. we will call it "call back time" and pay them for it? Tax payers money wasted again) What is wrong with the plan is that you still will have INADEQUATE amount of personnel responding on an initial alarm, and if it is mid day say on a Wednesday...and the remaining volunteers are not able to respond... what then? Oh..call SFRD to put the fire out? Great plan. Houses burned down because of lack of manpower. You need firefighters to put out the fire. And sitting on scene with your thumb up your butt waiting for those additional resources to get there so you can start your fire attack all the while the fire is spreading is just insane. This plan solves nothing in regards to the manpower issue. You can tell yourself all you want that it does... but you have to be smarter then that. You said it yourself... this plan is taking things backwards. I honestly believe that the guys on the front lines would work well together if the "Chiefs" could stay out of it. It is proven day in and day out on the scenes of calls. And if you agree that the guys doing the work do work well together, then why would you believe that if the "career" staff were SFRD members, that it wouldn't work? Consolidate the VFD's, standardize training, have 1 unified department, but why on earth would you decrease the number of firefighters responding?????

[Guest Slayer61]

I can't think of any combination department in CT where the volunteers can manage to stay relevant or useful. The only way for that to happen is for the volunteers to at least match the services provided by the career firefighters, if not exceed it. Anything less than that is not fair to the residents you are protecting, and a slap in the face of the career firefighters who take the job seriously and strive to provide the best service available. We see the war drums here all the time that volunteers care more about their communities because they live their, it's their neighbors, etc. But then it's 'outrageous' once people start talking about minimum certifications and staffing stations with crews. Once you start relying on paid staffing to make up for the inability of the volunteers to cover the call, it is only a matter of time before they are no longer a tangible part of fire protection. At this point, it is clear that the volunteer fire departments in Stamford cannot handle fire protection in their areas. They should follow a model where they can try and stay relevant by providing services beyond basic engine companies. If the volunteers can step up to the plate and staff light units, BA units, water supply units, truck companies, rescue companies, etc. Then they should perform those tasks. Pretending to still be able to respond to emergencies all the time, when it is clear that this is not the case, is a dangerous game that has already cost people their homes and hopefully will not cost anyone their life. Having two departments is simply a continuation of the drama and hubris that has plagued the system for too long.

[Alpinerunner 61]

It is a big deal because that system did NOT work. It is 2010 for God's sake. Time to get with the program. And as far as the paid personnel volunteering in their off time... IT IS ILLEGAL! (if at the same department they work for... or is that the plan.. we will call it "call back time" and pay them for it? Tax payers money wasted again) What is wrong with the plan is that you still will have INADEQUATE amount of personnel responding on an initial alarm, and if it is mid day say on a Wednesday...and the remaining volunteers are not able to respond... what then? Oh..call SFRD to put the fire out? Great plan. Houses burned down because of lack of manpower. You need firefighters to put out the fire. And sitting on scene with your thumb up your butt waiting for those additional resources to get there so you can start your fire attack all the while the fire is spreading is just insane. This plan solves nothing in regards to the manpower issue. You can tell yourself all you want that it does... but you have to be smarter then that. You said it yourself... this plan is taking things backwards. I honestly believe that the guys on the front lines would work well together if the "Chiefs" could stay out of it. It is proven day in and day out on the scenes of calls. And if you agree that the guys doing the work do work well together, then why would you believe that if the "career" staff were SFRD members, that it wouldn't work? Consolidate the VFD's, standardize training, have 1 unified department, but why on earth would you decrease the number of firefighters responding?????

WHY didn't it work? With the old system, the volunteer houses were covering their calls without outside help. The exception would be Long Ridge who just didn't have enough guys for an initial response and would rely on TOR autmatic mutual aid. This plan fixes that by TRIPPLING the Long Ridge manpower.

Paid personnel volunteering is NOT illegal. It's only illegal if your union says it is and the volunteer districts never had that clause. They could do what they wanted outside of their shift. There are no OT callbacks or wasting of taxpayer money. I don't know where you heard that.

You say inadequite manpower. 3 day guys per station and 2 at night sounds pretty par for the course. It's safe to assume at at least ONE volunteer is available evenings and nights because that has been more than proven over the past 2 years. So say 3 guys 24/7. Let's look at the NUMBERS...

Old system: 2 at Long Ridge, 4 at TOR, 2 at Belltown, 3 at Springdale = 11

Current System: 2 at Long Ridge, 6 in TOR, 0 at Belltown, 3 at Springdale = 11

Proposed System: 6 at Long Ridge, 6 in TOR, 3 at Belltown, 3 at Springdale = 19

I think that settles the staffing issue. It has nothing to do with spin or propaganda.

With regards to doing the above with SFRD members, I agree that everyone gets along on scene and works well together. I think there are 3 main problems: integration, trust, and rig swaping. The integration part is mainly letting volunteers ride out to calls and letting volunteers use SFRD gear. What makes a combination system work is is 1 or 2 guys are hanging around the station, to be able to jump on a rig and ride out. Not wait for a driver and full volly crew. The other part is to allow volunteers to go to a scene and grab an airpack and a tool. Because volunteers are all over the city, it's usually mroe efficient for thm to go to the scene. The other issue is trust. I think a lot of career guys won't trust volunteers with critical tasks. They will get boxed out of the knob and tool time. Lastly, rig swapping.

These aren't insurmountable issues, it just doesn't seem like the union has been willing to budge.

[mstrang1 213]

Alpine- Just to clarify or correct a few points you made, FLSA says that you are not allowed to volunteer at the same place that you are employed. Under the old system, any of the career guys that came to calls when they were off duty got 4 hour minimum overtime pay. For every call that they made it to. That amounted to A LOT of taxpayer money. That is a Federal Law, not a IAFF Bylaw. Under the old system, and still currently, there are 3 firefighters and 1 fire captain assigned to E7 (Springdale), not 3 as you mentioned. Your math on the proposed system still has me confused. You are saying that there will be 18 FFs per shift, but they are only looking to employ 60+1 people (the 1 is the paid chief), giving you 15 FFs with a 4 group system. So either there will 3 overtime positions EVERY SHIFT BEFORE VACATION, SICK, IOD, etc or the manpower will not be as you say. In addition, you assume that there will be at least 1 volunteer available. I beg to differ. I was assigned to E7 for 6 months, and very rarely saw a firefighter (only Chief Fahan oftentimes) show up for a call. I work quite often at E8 and E9 and during the day they MIGHT get 1 or 2 younger members out in the Explorer for a medical, sometimes R66 gets out with 2 people on it. That is not spin, that is what I have seen. I am not sure where you are a volunteer, but if it is TOR or Springdale, please show me NFIRS reports for the last month, and I will compare them to E7, E8 and E9 reports. Springdale has not done an NFIRS report since 2003. That means that, according to the state law, they have not responded on a single call since 2003. TOR has gotten out for some calls, but by all means not all of them, not even in the utility.

In your final paragraph you talk about volunteers riding out on SFRD apparatus. SFRD has allowed this for years at E7, as long as you had permission from the DC on duty. A few years ago, a young, energetic Springdale member (and member of this board), rode out with Engine 7 on at least one call. That member was reprimanded by Chief Fahan, and soon thereafter, was either thrown out or forced to resign (unsure of which). If you were to look at SFRD SOGs, that one is still in there, but I don't think anyone will want to ride along for fear of retribution. You say that it is not insurmountable, but it is not just SFRD that has to climb that mountain. It is the volunteers (Chiefs mostly) who have to stop shooting themselves in the foot.

[Guest capnlinus]

Alpine, Mstrang is 100% correct. Paid employees volunteering for their employer on their off hours is absolutely illegal. It is a direct, black letter violation of the Fair Labor Standards Act.

[JM15 386]

[quote name='Alpinerunner' date='23 June 2010 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1277322727' post='213194

Paid personnel volunteering is NOT illegal. It's only illegal if your union says it is and the volunteer districts never had that clause. They could do what they wanted outside of their shift. There are no OT callbacks or wasting of taxpayer money. I don't know where you heard that.

I am pretty sure it is illegal also. It has a lot to do with insurance and benefits if I am not mistaken.

[Alpinerunner 61]

Ok I stand corrected.

[junior215 0]

Stamford is simply gonna get rid of union jobs to replace them with a private corporation that is contracted to provide fire services. What if this gave municipalities in other areas an idea on how to save money? Can you say Rural Metro.

I am behind the Yonkers brothers 100%, but I wish more people would pay attantion to the Stamford situation. The truth is that the CITY OF STAMFORD IS LOOKING TO REPLACE UNIONIZED FIREFIGHTER JOBS WITH CONTRACTED SERVICES FOR FIRE PROTECTION.

ALL UNION MEMBERS SHOULD BE AWARE OF THIS SITUATION TO AVOID A SIMILAR FATE.

FOR MORE INFORMATION REFER TO http://www.stamfordfiretruths.org/

[BMeehan282 8]

I can't think of any combination department in CT where the volunteers can manage to stay relevant or useful. The only way for that to happen is for the volunteers to at least match the services provided by the career firefighters, if not exceed it. Anything less than that is not fair to the residents you are protecting, and a slap in the face of the career firefighters who take the job seriously and strive to provide the best service available. We see the war drums here all the time that volunteers care more about their communities because they live their, it's their neighbors, etc. But then it's 'outrageous' once people start talking about minimum certifications and staffing stations with crews. Once you start relying on paid staffing to make up for the inability of the volunteers to cover the call, it is only a matter of time before they are no longer a tangible part of fire protection. At this point, it is clear that the volunteer fire departments in Stamford cannot handle fire protection in their areas. They should follow a model where they can try and stay relevant by providing services beyond basic engine companies. If the volunteers can step up to the plate and staff light units, BA units, water supply units, truck companies, rescue companies, etc. Then they should perform those tasks. Pretending to still be able to respond to emergencies all the time, when it is clear that this is not the case, is a dangerous game that has already cost people their homes and hopefully will not cost anyone their life. Having two departments is simply a continuation of the drama and hubris that has plagued the system for too long.

I would disagree with this, or at least your definition of "relevant" and "useful". Danbury is a combination department where the career department is the 'primary' responder for all calls in the city, with the volunteers providing back-up or fill-in responses. Our volunteer division is comprised of twelve separate fire companies, who all typically meet minimum standards. Those minimum standards in order to be a "interior qualified" fire company, include FF-1, ICS (NIMS), Bloodborne pathogens, and Current quarterly training attendence. The volunteer companies must respond with "interior qualified" guys, three minimum, in order to be an "Engine Company". We have one squad company that is NOT interior qualified, but they fill air bottles and do emergency lighting. Other companies have Tankers and they only need a qualified driver/operator to respond.

The career department provides the instructors for the volunteer training. There are virtually ZERO issues between the career staff and the volunteer staff. We have occassional issues between volunteer companies. In essence, the danbury volunteers provide decent back up to the career guys at working fires and more involved emergencies. They also provide a valuable service as they "back fill" the career department when we are tied up. I think the best way to describe what the volunteers do for us, is provide our own "mutual aid". Only one company of the twelve is equipped to do EMS calls in our absence. There are approximately 100 interior qualified volunteers between the twelve volunteer companies in danbury. Is it an "ideal" system? Maybe not, but I would never describe them as "irrevelant" or "useless".

bernie meehan

captain

danbury fire department

[BMeehan282 8]

Alpine, Mstrang is 100% correct. Paid employees volunteering for their employer on their off hours is absolutely illegal. It is a direct, black letter violation of the Fair Labor Standards Act.

You are correct. A municipal employee cannot 'volunteer' for the same job he is paid for in the same jurisdiction. It's called "coercion" and there are PLENTY of cases where one of these "good natured" volunteer-paid guys, files a lawsuit demanding back pay for all the hours the paid guy "volunteered" for over the years as he makes his "exit" for whatever reason (usually he's jilted) and the courts then award him all those ""volunteer hours" as back pay. It is called the Fair Labors Standard Act, or the "Garcia Law". Any combination department that allows paid guys to "volunteer" is in absolute violation of the law and will at some point be writing a check to those paid guys who submit a bill for their "volunteer" time..

bernie meehan

[FD828 77]

WHY didn't it work? With the old system, the volunteer houses were covering their calls without outside help. The exception would be Long Ridge who just didn't have enough guys for an initial response and would rely on TOR autmatic mutual aid. This plan fixes that by TRIPPLING the Long Ridge manpower.

Paid personnel volunteering is NOT illegal. It's only illegal if your union says it is and the volunteer districts never had that clause. They could do what they wanted outside of their shift. There are no OT callbacks or wasting of taxpayer money. I don't know where you heard that.

You say inadequite manpower. 3 day guys per station and 2 at night sounds pretty par for the course. It's safe to assume at at least ONE volunteer is available evenings and nights because that has been more than proven over the past 2 years. So say 3 guys 24/7. Let's look at the NUMBERS...

Old system: 2 at Long Ridge, 4 at TOR, 2 at Belltown, 3 at Springdale = 11

Current System: 2 at Long Ridge, 6 in TOR, 0 at Belltown, 3 at Springdale = 11

Proposed System: 6 at Long Ridge, 6 in TOR, 3 at Belltown, 3 at Springdale = 19

I think that settles the staffing issue. It has nothing to do with spin or propaganda.

With regards to doing the above with SFRD members, I agree that everyone gets along on scene and works well together. I think there are 3 main problems: integration, trust, and rig swaping. The integration part is mainly letting volunteers ride out to calls and letting volunteers use SFRD gear. What makes a combination system work is is 1 or 2 guys are hanging around the station, to be able to jump on a rig and ride out. Not wait for a driver and full volly crew. The other part is to allow volunteers to go to a scene and grab an airpack and a tool. Because volunteers are all over the city, it's usually mroe efficient for thm to go to the scene. The other issue is trust. I think a lot of career guys won't trust volunteers with critical tasks. They will get boxed out of the knob and tool time. Lastly, rig swapping.

These aren't insurmountable issues, it just doesn't seem like the union has been willing to budge.

I am not going to beat up everything here, other members have answered for me in regards to the math and law. But what I will say is this... You say that the volunteer force is strong. So why then is it a problem if the career staff only man 1 machine? I mean if the volunteers are there, then wouldn't they be able to take the other machines (Rescue, truck, tanker)? Or are you really saying that there aren't enough qualified volunteers and there would be a big delay in responding if it were set up this way? One other thing. Why do you suppose that the career FF's that used to be assigned to the VFD's wanted to merge into SFRD? It wasn't so that they could have a pay freeze was it? It wasn't so that they could work less overtime was it? Perhaps it was because they were constantly put in unsafe conditions responding to calls by themselves! Perhaps they felt that this would be better and safer for them and the residents which they serve?

[FFPCogs 863]

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/opinion/article/Support-Mayor-Pavia-s-fire-plan-534735.php

Bingo!!

[Guest FDNY99]

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/opinion/article/Support-Mayor-Pavia-s-fire-plan-534735.php

Bingo!!

Cogs we all get it...the plan you and your 2 cronies...the 2 IAFF card carrying members of Local 786 who sold their brothers down the river after they voted to take them in so guys would get their jobs back...put together is the one that Pavia...no make that Larobina we all know he runs the city.....put into place. Nice to see you ducking questions and slandering guys on here. I thought you were better than that, but I should have known better when the promise of a job comes into play! Seems to me Belltown has made out just fine being 100% volunteer...now they are getting paid guys...why they don't seem to need them.

Oh yeah by the way I find it funny one of your cohorts went to a union meeting crying about how he didn't mean anything or didn't know what he did was wrong...

[Bnechis 3,961]

You are correct. A municipal employee cannot 'volunteer' for the same job he is paid for in the same jurisdiction. It's called "coercion" and there are PLENTY of cases where one of these "good natured" volunteer-paid guys, files a lawsuit demanding back pay for all the hours the paid guy "volunteered" for over the years

Its not just municipal employees its all employees. for example, if you work as a janator for a church you can not volunteer to do any similar work for that church.

Any combination department that allows paid guys to "volunteer" is in absolute violation of the law and will at some point be writing a check to those paid guys who submit a bill for their "volunteer" time..

Its not just for the guy who submits the bill. In Montgomery County MD about 10 years back one or two career ff's brought a suit in federal court over this and the county was forced to pay millions to every career ff who volunteered and for every hour they volunteered in the county.

I wonder if this came up in the Stamford "review" of how well the combination departments in Maryland work?

[Guest capnlinus]

http://www.stamforda...plan-534735.php

Bingo!!

Bingo to what? A volunteer Assistant Chief in a district that stands to gain 60 or so backdoor jobs, including for all we know, one for him, from this plan supports said plan? And disagrees with the Union? Response wasn't an issue? Support this plan he says.

Shocking.

[FD828 77]

http://www.stamforda...plan-534735.php

Bingo!!

Bingo? Are you kidding me? Not even half of the BS that maroon wrote is true. For crying out loud... if the VFD's went along with the Maloy plan NO FIREFIGHTER would have been laid off. The VFD's did NOTHING for the paid guys who were laid off..give me a break. Their lawsuit did NOTHING to bring the laid off ff's back to work. You honestly think/believe that the union didn't fight or give concessions to get those guys back to work? Get your head out of the friggin sand. The UNION and its membership is what saved those guys. Ask any one of them what their former employer/VFD did for them. They did nothing. Now ask them what their union brothers did. You don't have a hair on your you know what to ask them. Because I saw first hand what was and wasn't done. So don't believe any of that crap that it was because of the VFD's that they got back to work. No way.

This plan is garbage plain and simple. Are there some good things in it like merging the VFD's into 1 dept, standardizing training (like Glenbrook had been doing) yes. But for crying out loud look at the big picture. If you really believe what that ignorant volunteer wrote then you are hopeless. I am open for change. I am open to work alongside the dedicated volunteer firefighters who care about what they are doing and want to make sure the residents of their jurisdiction are getting the best possible service. As are most of the SFRD guys.

And if you honestly believe that there will be no layoffs if this plan goes through then you are a maroon too. Politicians never lie or bend the truth right? Just for argument sake... If there are 16,000 less households that are paying for the SFRD fire coverage, does that mean that the residents of the downtown coverage area will have their taxes go up? I mean if there are going to be no layoffs, the cost of fire protection isn't going to change but the Northern residents won't be contributing to that anymore so who pays for it then? Or could it be that the mayor will in the end have to cut cut cut????

I understand, you don't like the way the first plan was "forced" upon you departments. But guess what? It wasn't the union's idea. None of this mess was. So stop holding a grudge and do what is right for your residents and firefighters alike. Safety is and should be the number 1 priority. Saving lives is the priority not getting a job.

[jcoppola 52]

http://www.stamforda...plan-534735.php

Bingo!!

More anti-labor, anti-union rhetoric. Past events in the big 5 prove quite the contrary to what this TOR member is writing.

[SFRD373 0]

I see so those people who were originally hired by the VFDs prior to 1999 are not "scabs" even though they were hired under the very same conditions you find "horrible and sickening" and believe this new entity will employ and were not union members when hired. So it must just be that because they are union members now it really doesn' t matter how they got their jobs, why then does it matter how anyone else gets theirs?

Yes I have both on and off these boards and you sir have been very clear in yours.

I respect every member here regardless of whether or not they do me, but I have to tell you it seems many of you have come to believe your own rhetorical propaganda a little to much.

Stay Safe

Cogs

_____________

Peter Cogliano

FF/ T.O.

Belltown Fire Dept

currently working with Dyncorp/LOGCAP IV

Camp Leatherneck

Afghanistan

Cog

I don't know were you get your information from, but when I was hired by the Springdale Fire Company in 1986 we were not allowed in the union by Springdale's administration. By 1987 after bring in the State Labor Board and a formal vote everyone of us joined the Union and have been represented by them in every contract we negotiated. Also every one of use did take and pass a civil service written exam and a physical agility test prior to merging with the SFRD. So there are no scabs here.

[JAD622 40]

JAD622, I will ask the same question to you. You rail against this plan, governments, politicians, and the ignorant public... but ironically you don't actually criticize anything about the plan. Is that because you don't know what the plan is? Or is there actually no concrete problem besides lack of expansion for the union? No one is decimating the Stamford Fire Department, nor do they want to. Things are simply going back to what worked efficiently for 50 years, with some needed consolidation, standardization, and increased manpower.

Ok, what I know of the "Plan" is only what I have read posted here in this forum. The "Plan" I read was the link provided to the article published in the Stamford Advocate. I assume that that is the authentic "Plan" that was presented to the Mayor by the retired baseball coach and some volunteer Chiefs? If that is incorrect, let me know now and I will retract my"Rail against this Plan". If however it is the correct "Plan" then I stick to my original opinion that it is a vague and weak plan at best.

Most of the deficiencies have already been addressed in earlier posts by members more knowledgeable than I regarding earlier manning practices and the deficiencies that existed in the previous setup. However, the "plan" does not explain in any detail the process by which some 60 new firefighters and a Career Chief will be hired. Will there be a written test followed by a psychological exam and a stringent oral interview? Will there be background checks and physical exams by a medical doctor? ( I know CPAT has already been mentioned) I'm talking individual medical exams for each potential candidate?

Once hired, will a firefighter candidate have to attend a training academy to obtain the State's minimum training for a firefighter recruit? Will each firefighter hired be subject to a probation period of one year? Will their job performance and practical skills, ability to work with others as a team and follow orders be evaluated by senior experienced firefighters and superior Officers? Which brings up MORE questions I failed to see in the "Plan". How will Officers be chosen and promoted? Will they be required to take a competitive promotional exam which requires "Months" sometimes years of dedicated intense studies of evolving and changing hazards and standards of today's fire service? Once promoted what training as a new Officer will they undergo? In NY, every newly promoted Lieutenant must attend the FDNY First Line Supervisors Training Program for 4 weeks 8 hours a day. I don't know what CT does. After that will the newly promoted Lt. be subject to a one year probationary period where he will be evaluated by more experienced senior officers? How will the Career Chief be hired? Will he have to take a test.......yadda...yadda....yadda.... You see where I'm going here?

That's my problem with the "Plan" my friend. It really isn't a "Plan" at all from what I've read! So, if this is the extent of the "Plan" I don't see how they are going to hire some 60 new firefighters properly? So that leads me to my next question and maybe you can answer it since you "seem" to be on the inside. Why go this route if in your opinion the system has worked fine for the last 50 years? That leads to my next point. If you think that a Chief officer returning responding companies to which turned out to be a working fire, prior to any unit arriving on the scene and giving a report on a fire condition, an example of a system that "worked" just fine, then not only do I question that Chief Officer's judgment but I question yours as well.

Now with my comment about decimating the Stamford FD, if in fact, as I have read here that if this "Plan" goes through, the possibility exists that some 60 members of SFD run the risk of losing their jobs. I believe that SFD has approximately some 275 members? If I'm wrong I stand corrected,but losing 60 positions on a job that size is a "Substantial" number! Experienced Firefighters with much invested in their careers and families to support and lives to be severely affected! So yes, I consider that "Decimating" a great Department! Additionally, I do not believe the Mayor's statement for one second that he will not layoff any SFD firefighter if this plan goes through! If he proves me wrong then wonderful! I'll gladly put my foot in my mouth for the benefit of my Brothers in Local 786! Now, with regard to my "rail" against Politicians, Government and the "Ignorant" Public I say this; First I never said the Public was "Ignorant" I said "misled" by incorrect information. I have spent enough years in this business dealing with Politicians and Government to firmly qualify my "rail" towards these entities. I have seen throughout the years and even more so now, how the Politicians and Government use the Career Fire Service as the "Whipping Post" for all the financial woes of modern times. They use strategic terms like "Rising Pension costs" and "Increasing Health care costs" and "Out of control Overtime" every chance they get to incite the taxpayer and grind home to people who are struggling how we "Union thugs" are to blame!

Back in the early 90's during the Dot.com Boom civil servants were not even a blip on the radar screen! Most of us made salaries that barely covered living expenses and who cared about US then? Not many. Now, I have family and MANY good friends in the private sector who have lost their jobs and are hurting as I'm sure everyone on these forums does as well. So to think that any "Union thug" here is insulated by the effects on the private sector by the economy is just plain ignorant. I certainly feel for those who have suffered in the private sector by what has happened to the economy of this Country. So, who's to blame? Of course it's those Greedy "Union thugs" It has to be!!! Who else could it be? Can you say ENRON? Fanny Mae? Freddy Mac? AIG? Shearson Lehman? Goldman Sachs? Arthur Anderson? GM? The list goes on and on. Outsourcing most of our labor to China, Mexico, Indonesia, Korea? and so on and so on! So, when you ask why I "rail" about these things those are my reason's. Like I said, my career is winding down and hopefully I'll make it out before the whole thing comes crumbling down. However those who are just starting out have a lot to contend with and I feel for them. The Fire Service is certainly not what it was over 20 years ago. Good luck to the "Plan" it's gonna need it!

Edited June 24, 2010 by JAD622

[Geppetto 31]

BOR gets first look at fire plan

06/23/2010

TOM EVANS

Stamford Times

STAMFORD -- Mayor Michael Pavia presented his new proposal for fire services to the Board of Representatives on June 17, and the general sense from both sides is that there is still plenty of work to do before the plan is implemented....

http://www.thestamfordtimes.com/story/488120

[dragonrescue 28]

BOR gets first look at fire plan

06/23/2010

TOM EVANS

Stamford Times

http://www.thestamfordtimes.com/story/488120

BINGO! Ya think?

[dragonrescue 28]

I would like to dedicate this link to the mayors new proposal......

[Bnechis 3,961]

"Its all in the "plan" the problem is all you Union guys don't understand the "plan" and are not willing to let the "plan" work.

The plan means that chiefs that burn homes to the ground because they dont want union members on there scene will still be chiefs.

The plan is the union will never know..oh wait SFRD has the tapes......unless we do our own dispatch...but thats not in the plan.

The plan solves our daytime manning by placing 15 career firefighters who are really volunteers and will remain faithful to their volunteer roots. They will still volunteer (FLSA does not bother us we can ingor that law) and they will not want to join the union or we will not let them (oh wait, Springdale tried that. Damn laws). Those 15 career ff's in 6 stations will be able to jump from rig to rig and handle everything without needing SFRD.

The plan also has those 15 positions at night but we have plenty of active volunteers at night, except of course when there is a house fire in Long Ridge.

But the plan will work because we know what is needed in North Stamford and the union does not. We are the ones for 50 years who fought all the fires without the union. Please do not tell us that after burning down a few homes and having 3 or 4 SFRD units placed into service in our district because we could not put enough ff's on the scene the the union has any right to even comment on this. No union member has a stake in this, those union members who have been assinged to North Stamford do not know anything about North Stamford.

The plan is perfect because with 15 career firefighters onduty we will be able to handle everything for ever because we will always have plenty of volunteers.

The plan will improve response times because the career "drivers" can respond by themselves and be onscene in minutes (thus stopping the clock) and all our volunteers which are all over North Stamford can get there fast from home. The plan does not need to mention that they currently have not been showing up or that responding in private vehicles to the scene creats major accountability issues and a major lack in teamwork. The plan does not need to use the SFRD model of members arriving together as a team.

The plan means that those most loyal to the VFD's and to the plan will get the biggest rewards....a job.

The hiring plan is line up single file behind PCoggs and no one should worry about layoffs in SFRD because the mayor has promised and we all know that mayors NEVER break their promises.

Most important the plan places North Stamford Volunteers above those that they swore to protect.

Why cant people understand that! Its all about us...not you and not the citizens of North Stamford.

Nothing will stop the plan and in 20 years we can have this fight all over again when the SVFD has no more volunteers and the taxpayers wont pay for a 200 man dept. so maybe 1 dept is better than 2.

I return you to your regularly scheduled rant.......

[redddogg317 1]

"Its all in the "plan" the problem is all you Union guys don't understand the "plan" and are not willing to let the "plan" work.

The plan means that chiefs that burn homes to the ground because they don't want union members on there scene will still be chiefs.

The plan is the union will never know..oh wait SFRD has the tapes......unless we do our own dispatch...but thats not in the plan.

The plan solves our daytime manning by placing 15 career firefighters who are really volunteers and will remain faithful to their volunteer roots. They will still volunteer (FLSA does not bother us we can ignore that law) and they will not want to join the union or we will not let them (oh wait, Springdale tried that. Damn laws). Those 15 career ff's in 6 stations will be able to jump from rig to rig and handle everything without needing SFRD.

The plan also has those 15 positions at night but we have plenty of active volunteers at night, except of course when there is a house fire in Long Ridge.

But the plan will work because we know what is needed in North Stamford and the union does not. We are the ones for 50 years who fought all the fires without the union. Please do not tell us that after burning down a few homes and having 3 or 4 SFRD units placed into service in our district because we could not put enough ff's on the scene the the union has any right to even comment on this. No union member has a stake in this, those union members who have been assinged to North Stamford do not know anything about North Stamford.

The plan is perfect because with 15 career firefighters onduty we will be able to handle everything for ever because we will always have plenty of volunteers.

The plan will improve response times because the career "drivers" can respond by themselves and be onscene in minutes (thus stopping the clock) and all our volunteers which are all over North Stamford can get there fast from home. The plan does not need to mention that they currently have not been showing up or that responding in private vehicles to the scene creats major accountability issues and a major lack in teamwork. The plan does not need to use the SFRD model of members arriving together as a team.

The plan means that those most loyal to the VFD's and to the plan will get the biggest rewards....a job.

The hiring plan is line up single file behind PCoggs and no one should worry about layoffs in SFRD because the mayor has promised and we all know that mayors NEVER break their promises.

Most important the plan places North Stamford Volunteers above those that they swore to protect.

Why cant people understand that! Its all about us...not you and not the citizens of North Stamford.

Nothing will stop the plan and in 20 years we can have this fight all over again when the SVFD has no more volunteers and the taxpayers wont pay for a 200 man dept. so maybe 1 dept is better than 2.

I return you to your regularly scheduled rant.......

Just a little note to your comment on the Mayor never breaking a promise. Back when Mr Pavia was courting the union for backing members of our E-Board met with him and he basically lied to there faces and said " I will not go back in time with the fire service in Stamford" 1 year later I see the 1980's on the horizon!!!!!

This tactic of his is nothing short of union busting and paying back political favors..something he "promised" to get away from....hmmm I guess politics ARE staus quo in Stamford

If it is so easy to change the charter to make this debacle happen why not follow the recommendations of 2 fire studies and make 1 chief, 1 command structure throughout the city. The volunteers should be united but as volunteers and also have one chain of command....the union is far from anti-volunteer many of our members came from the Stamford structure. There are many reasons why 4 out of 5 of the "big 5" have been labeled "rival organizations" by the IAFF mainly because when our members were still paid drivers and were unhappy with the lack of response of volunteers and fearing for there safety complained about it. retaliation followed the complaints along with harrasement...all cases are documented

[FD828 77]

"Its all in the "plan" the problem is all you Union guys don't understand the "plan" and are not willing to let the "plan" work.

The plan means that chiefs that burn homes to the ground because they dont want union members on there scene will still be chiefs.

The plan is the union will never know..oh wait SFRD has the tapes......unless we do our own dispatch...but thats not in the plan.

The plan solves our daytime manning by placing 15 career firefighters who are really volunteers and will remain faithful to their volunteer roots. They will still volunteer (FLSA does not bother us we can ingor that law) and they will not want to join the union or we will not let them (oh wait, Springdale tried that. Damn laws). Those 15 career ff's in 6 stations will be able to jump from rig to rig and handle everything without needing SFRD.

The plan also has those 15 positions at night but we have plenty of active volunteers at night, except of course when there is a house fire in Long Ridge.

But the plan will work because we know what is needed in North Stamford and the union does not. We are the ones for 50 years who fought all the fires without the union. Please do not tell us that after burning down a few homes and having 3 or 4 SFRD units placed into service in our district because we could not put enough ff's on the scene the the union has any right to even comment on this. No union member has a stake in this, those union members who have been assinged to North Stamford do not know anything about North Stamford.

The plan is perfect because with 15 career firefighters onduty we will be able to handle everything for ever because we will always have plenty of volunteers.

The plan will improve response times because the career "drivers" can respond by themselves and be onscene in minutes (thus stopping the clock) and all our volunteers which are all over North Stamford can get there fast from home. The plan does not need to mention that they currently have not been showing up or that responding in private vehicles to the scene creats major accountability issues and a major lack in teamwork. The plan does not need to use the SFRD model of members arriving together as a team.

The plan means that those most loyal to the VFD's and to the plan will get the biggest rewards....a job.

The hiring plan is line up single file behind PCoggs and no one should worry about layoffs in SFRD because the mayor has promised and we all know that mayors NEVER break their promises.

Most important the plan places North Stamford Volunteers above those that they swore to protect.

Why cant people understand that! Its all about us...not you and not the citizens of North Stamford.

Nothing will stop the plan and in 20 years we can have this fight all over again when the SVFD has no more volunteers and the taxpayers wont pay for a 200 man dept. so maybe 1 dept is better than 2.

I return you to your regularly scheduled rant.......

Any chance that you would like to run for Mayor of Stamford in a few years?????? Well said.

[SFRD372 43]

When is all this BS gonna stop! Form your own single VOLUNTEER fire department in the City of Stamford. No one is questioning that. Start VOLUNTEERING by manning and responding with the support vehicle's (additional engine's, trucks, tankers and rescues) necessary to compliment the paid engine companies. Also, while you are condemning and bad-mouthing the SFRD career engine companies why don't you publish the TRUE FACTS of the large amounts of dispatched incident where NO VOLUNTEER ENGINE, TRUCK, RESCUE, TANKER companies ever responded! How convenient that those TRUE FACTS are always left-out when you address the public or the elected official's in the City of Stamford. Leave the paid firefighting forces to SFRD and just keep volunteering. This entire dilema is nothing more than personality conflicts. Those conflicts can be addressed and dealt with accordingly. There has to be a little give and take on each side of this dilema. And in my opinion you, Pete Cog's, are the one volunteer who is always trying to stir up the hornet's nest by ranting and raving about UNION firefighter's having their own agenda and trying to kill or stomp out the volunteers. Nothing can be further from the truth! You say their statements are "outright lies"....I'm afraid I am going to have to differ with you on that one. Are you insinuating that the figures maintained by the Dispatch Center for lack of responses are false? Why don't you ask one of the many career staff members who worked in the "old system" about how disfunctional it truly was....I can peronally attest to that! I lived it and worked it for almost 15 years!! True, there are a handful of current career SFRD members that were absorbed from the "old system" that will differ but the large majority will not. Deceased Chief John Hoyt, along with current Chief Frank Passero are the only two Chief's who put personalities aside and realized that their current VOLUNTEER forses were not enough to adequately protect the residents and properties in their districts, they should be aplauded for what they did. Their volunteer's kept volunteering and their respective district's have been protected by two fully staffed 4-man engine companies. What is your logic that replacing these two 4-man engine companies with two 2-man engine companies is better fire protection for the residents and property in those districts??? You cannot argue that fact at all! Stop all of your rant and raving and just continue VOLUNTEERING!