Update on Stamford Merger

[Alpinerunner 61]

The mayor will not think this is the easy way out when he has an emergency at his house and the circus shows up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Comments like this are very disrespectful and ignorant, and not what I would expect from the professional amtmosphere of this site. I have to assume this comment is based on indignation and not thoughful analysis of what is going on now and what is proposed in the new system. Furthermore, this sentiment reimforces the reason why a full merger of departments and "personalities" might not be so seamless or make things operate that smoothly.

Do you think the mayor would want dispatch to pull from a total of 11 career firefights from the first due are + volunteers from a separate chain of command, or from a possible total of 19 career firefighters + volunteers from the same chain of command?

[FFPCogs 863]

So we agree on the belief that these new employees of the "volunteer" fire department would organize. Local 786 I believe is the exclusive bargaining unit for all career firefighters within the city, so I believe they would have some significant say on how this would occur. But I am not sure about that.

I did see your whole post about officers and so forth. And anyone who knows me will tell you I am NOT anti volunteer. However, I disagree with the basic premise of your assertion that being in a busy volunteer department will give you experience commensurate with career firefighter experience. Doing the job day and day out, being immersed in the environment, doing the routine runs every day all day (the fire alarms, the CO calls, the medicals, etc) leads to a familiarity, a comfort level and experience level that allows a career firefighter to have an inherent edge over a volunteer firefighter, regardless of how busy that volunteer is. It is the same reason that the Recruit program is more than a local FF1 program.

I am not, in any way, trying to disparage the dedication of volunteers, and I too have come across many that are outstanding firefighters. However, there is an unmistakable advantage to doing the job full time. It allows you to see the fine details, the nuances that make you more efficient at your job.

For example, I recently visited a friend of mine who I went through flight school with. We both went to the same schools, flew the same DC-8's for the same airline. Only 11 years ago I left professional aviation. He stayed in it and is now a first officer on the A-320 for a major airline. I still fly, he still flies. He has a proficiency level, sees things and recognizes things that I no longer do, simply because he does it professionally. Doesn't make me an unsafe pilot. It makes him better at it than I am. Because it is his profession, whereas it is now my hobby.

There is a difference, and if we are going to have an honest discussion about what option really, truly provides the best service to the citizens of Stamford, then let's be honest about it. I said it before, lets talk about what we are talking about.

Very erudite and well thought out response thanks for posting it. While I can fully understand your views and even agree with them at times it has been my experience that dedicated volunteer firefighters handle themselves just as well as their career counterparts at the incidents I've been involved with. Now maybe this isn't always the case but for me it is and it is from this perspective that my views are formed. My goal if it were mine alone to pursue to fruition would be to create as professional a department as is possible by standardizing every operational aspect of the department for both the paid and volunteer personnel.

Let's be clear here in that neither I nor anyone I know has ever called for a 100% volunteer fire department in Stamford, that is not realistic...but a combination of both paid and volunteer personnel working together as equals to provide exemplary fire protection is. Now believe it or not I'm not a fool, I know full well that there is and always will be differences between career and volunteer personnel, I have never said otherwise. But those differences can be drastically reduced through training and the instilling of an attitude of professionalism towards the duties involved in being a firefighter...and let me be clear I said reduced not eliminated. In that vein I do believe the Mayor's plan is the best one for Stamford at this time, but I also believe that to ensure that it is a success into the future some major changes will be required of Stamford's volunteers...first and foremost among them is the staffing of the firehouses with competent and qualified people 24/7. Now some these people will most assuredly be paid but to me the majority can and should be volunteer...and at the risk of starting a long debate the volunteer ranks should include the paid personnel also if they decide they want to volunteer on their off time.

And in the vein of openess and honesty, are you interested in one of these jobs?

Yes

Stay Safe

Cogs

_____________

Peter Cogliano

FF/ T.O.

Belltown Fire Dept

currently working with Dyncorp/LOGCAP IV

Camp Leatherneck

Afghanistan

[FD828 77]

To be quite honest given the right parameters I would wholeheartedly support a Charter revision to create one unified department. But having one FD where volunteer Chiefs are subordinate to career Captains and volunteer officers oversee only volunteer personnel and are subordinate to career firefighters is not a viable option and that is what was proposed. As has so often been said by many people here "you cannot have two chains of command on the fireground" and that is what we would've got...two commands. I can say with complete candor that unity of command is a concept I fully agree with and as offensive as it may be to some, to me if that means creating two departments and two seperate fire districts to achieve it, then so be it.

Stay Safe

Cogs

_____________

Peter Cogliano

FF/ T.O.

Belltown Fire Dept

currently working with Dyncorp/LOGCAP IV

Camp Leatherneck

Afghanistan

So lets just say there is a call in Springdale and the Springdale chief arrives on scene and takes command. Isn't he in "command"? The captain of engine 7 isn't over ruling his orders right? If there is a call in Glenbrook and the Glenbrook chief arrives and takes command isn't he also in command? Would this not be the case in TOR, Belltown, and Long Ridge? Isn't it up to the chief to turn over command if and only if he/she wants to? How can you make statements such as above when they are not accurate? I don't see volunteer captains trying to order around the paid captains or Lieutenants nor do I see the paid officers bossing around the volunteer officers. And the career captains are absolutely are not out ranking the volunteer chiefs. In fact I believe that they are working well together on calls. Everyone follows the chain of command.

So, if the volunteer chief would still be in command at all calls (unless turned over), why would you want to decrease the number of fire fighters responding to your residences' emergencies? Right now there are 2 engines staffed with 6 personnel (8 when possible) 24/7 in TOR's district. You want to bring that number down to 4 total? Sprindale has 4 personnel 24/7 and you want that down to 2? How is that looking out for the best interest of the residents or the firefighter's(both volunteer and career) safety themselves? You know how much man power is needed to complete the necessary tasks, right? And you agree that time is of the essence? This plan will put lives in jeopardy. The volunteers are getting out, Belltown especially. Why decrease what they could have? Assign the career staff of 4 to the engine or truck(which ever the city and volunteer chief determine) and let the volunteers to continue doing what they are doing. They will continue to respond won't they? They aren't going to stop responding just because they have their own paid personnel... right? Why go backwards and decrease manpower responding?

[spin_the_wheel 460]

So we agree on the belief that these new employees of the "volunteer" fire department would organize. Local 786 I believe is the exclusive bargaining unit for all career firefighters within the city, so I believe they would have some significant say on how this would occur. But I am not sure about that.

I did see your whole post about officers and so forth. And anyone who knows me will tell you I am NOT anti volunteer. However, I disagree with the basic premise of your assertion that being in a busy volunteer department will give you experience commensurate with career firefighter experience. Doing the job day and day out, being immersed in the environment, doing the routine runs every day all day (the fire alarms, the CO calls, the medicals, etc) leads to a familiarity, a comfort level and experience level that allows a career firefighter to have an inherent edge over a volunteer firefighter, regardless of how busy that volunteer is. It is the same reason that the Recruit program is more than a local FF1 program.

I am not, in any way, trying to disparage the dedication of volunteers, and I too have come across many that are outstanding firefighters. However, there is an unmistakable advantage to doing the job full time. It allows you to see the fine details, the nuances that make you more efficient at your job.

For example, I recently visited a friend of mine who I went through flight school with. We both went to the same schools, flew the same DC-8's for the same airline. Only 11 years ago I left professional aviation. He stayed in it and is now a first officer on the A-320 for a major airline. I still fly, he still flies. He has a proficiency level, sees things and recognizes things that I no longer do, simply because he does it professionally. Doesn't make me an unsafe pilot. It makes him better at it than I am. Because it is his profession, whereas it is now my hobby.

There is a difference, and if we are going to have an honest discussion about what option really, truly provides the best service to the citizens of Stamford, then let's be honest about it. I said it before, lets talk about what we are talking about.

And in the vein of openess and honesty, are you interested in one of these jobs?

It all depends on the Department, just becasue you are a career Firefighter does not mean you always will be better at the job, or less prepared I should say. There are some very busy all Volunteer Dept.s that have dozens of workers year after year. An active 15 year member in one of those Dept.s you say woud always be less ready for the job at hand then someone with a title of career Firefighter? The career Firefighter may be in a Dept. that runs to 3 automatic alarms a day and 2 workers a year? Not to mention the career guy works once every 4 days, and would have to be working to catch the job. What are some fine details or nuances you speak of?

Don't compare flying an airplane to firefighting. I'm sure since you are not an everyday pilot, you don't have access to a plane everyday. That said of course your skills may have dropped off. A voulnteer in a busy Dept. will be going to runs everyday, have access to "hanging" out in the firehouse everyday, even if its for an hour or so after work. Just because you are a Volunteer does not mean you put your gear on once a month. I know, I know there may be some but dont group all Volunteer Depts as always below the standard of someone with a career title.

How about a "career" Firefighter that in reality is a paid driver? When was the lat time he crawled down a hallway? In those Depts. its the volunteers who do the actual firefighting. Would you consider him better then the guys on the line? Using the Pilot example he would be less, sure he drives the rig every 3rd day but he has not had the knob in 7 years, so his profency level is less.

Of course I dont believe this but dont say someone will always be less skilled or prepared just because they have the title of Volunteer.

Edited June 14, 2010 by spin_the_wheel

[FireMedic049 597]

No, what I'm saying is that given the circumstances he made the best possible choice and I support it. In time maybe we can put in place the proper parameters on all sides to unify "once and for all" but until then two is better than six especially if both adhere to common standards and put in place the conditions that allow all to meet them.

I'll somewhat defer to you on this matter since you are directly involved in it and I'm just an interested observer, but I'm still failing to see how using this plan now and hoping to do more later is the best possible choice for the citizens.

The plan may improve how the volunteer departments interact and work with each other, but to me it looks like it doesn't really do anything to address any real sort of unity between the North and South and sets the stage for new problems.

[nfd2004 750]

Why not? A career captain with years of experience and training should not be subordinate to a volunteer Chief simply because of some arbitrary rank. For example, take a career Captain 15, 16 years on the job in a busy city department. Say he has Fire Officer II or better, maybe a degree, and has been a career officer for 5-7 years. Yet he is supposed to take orders from a "Chief" (in the same department, not talking about mutual aid) who might have fire 1 or 2 and got his rank by being elected by his membership.

The scenario I just described to you is quite common in CT. If you think a volunteer should be giving a career officer orders, then that volunteer officer should damn well have the experience and certficates to match, and should have earned his position through the same type of competitive and fair testing process as career officers.

Promotion in a Career Dept requires hours of study. Sometimes years. Competation is extremely high. First passing a written exam is required, and not just passing, but scoring the highest. Next generally comes an Oral exam, where under pressure you are asked several questions pertaining to Fire Tactics, Hazmat, Training, and Supervisory skills. Generally you are graded by three or four individuals of Higher Rank from different depts. After that you may recieve another interview from the Chief of Dept and maybe the second highest ranking officer. At this point your job performance may be discussed, and you may be presented with other senerios. It's not easy. Some go through the process and Never get promoted. For others it's their second or third time. Promotions are Not given out in Career Depts. They are Earned through hard work. I know, I took several promotion exams myself. I also was a Volunteer in Fairfield, Ct where I had no trouble at all taking orders from the more experienced firefighters and officers. I believe it still works like that these days.

[Guest capnlinus]

It all depends on the Department, just becasue you are a career Firefighter does not mean you always will be better at the job, or less prepared I should say. There are some very busy all Volunteer Dept.s that have dozens of workers year after year. An active 15 year member in one of those Dept.s you say woud always be less ready for the job at hand then someone with a title of career Firefighter? The career Firefighter may be in a Dept. that runs to 3 automatic alarms a day and 2 workers a year? Not to mention the career guy works once every 4 days, and would have to be working to catch the job. What are some fine details or nuances you speak of?

Don't compare flying an airplane to firefighting. I'm sure since you are not an everyday pilot, you don't have access to a plane everyday. That said of course your skills may have dropped off. A voulnteer in a busy Dept. will be going to runs everyday, have access to "hanging" out in the firehouse everyday, even if its for an hour or so after work. Just because you are a Volunteer does not mean you put your gear on once a month. I know, I know there may be some but dont group all Volunteer Depts as always below the standard of someone with a career title.

How about a "career" Firefighter that in reality is a paid driver? When was the lat time he crawled down a hallway? In those Depts. its the volunteers who do the actual firefighting. Would you consider him better then the guys on the line? Using the Pilot example he would be less, sure he drives the rig every 3rd day but he has not had the knob in 7 years, so his profency level is less.

Of course I dont believe this but dont say someone will always be less skilled or prepared just because they have the title of Volunteer.

I am not saying every department, and I am not trying to offend volunteers. I work full time in a combination fire department. I work part time in a combination EMS department. And I teach volunteer and career firefighters routinely. Like almost everyone else, I started as a volunteer, and I wouldn't trade that learning experience. I have an excellent relationship with volunteers and I respect their dedication. What I am saying is that, as a pretty consistent rule, a career firefighter is going to have a larger experience pool to draw on than a volunteer. There are, of course, variations on a theme. Yes, there are busy all volunteer departments. But they are an increasingly rare find, wouldn't you agree?

There are plenty of nuances, familiarity with a crew you work with all the time, knox box locations, different alarm panels, knowing preplans cold, which response routes work better during certain times of day, general skills that are used more often, familiarity with equipment etc, etc. Yes, there are volunteer departments and indiviuals who will take the time to learn all those subjects and more. Fine. But what I am saying is that by doing the job full time more of that sinks in. You get better through repetition.

You didn't buy into the flying comparison. I've worked in both professions so I'll disagree with you on that, but we will have to save that discussion for a time when we can sit down for a pint or two. Fine, here's another- 2 certified EMTs. One is part of a "busy" volunteer department that runs 1,500 EMS calls a year. But he only rides in about 2-3 times a month. His buddy, also an EMT, works 40 hours a week for a commercial service doing 8-10 runs every tour. What will the corresponding skill levels be?

And yes there are career firefighters who are driver's only in small, slow combination departments. But let's return to the subject at hand. The volunteer departments in northern Stamford are not responding to "dozens" of workers per year. So let's not let pride and rivalry get in the way of an honest discussion of the topic at hand.

At the heart of the matter here is that politics and back room deals are coming together to continue a long and not so proud tradition of fire service dysfunction in a major city. Have people forgotten already that a month or so ago that "proud" tradition saw another chapter added when a volunteer assistant chief cancelled both career and volunteer manpower to a burning 7,000 sq foot mansion several minutes before he was on scene. What was the result? A total loss and 3 brothers injured. And that is acceptable?

Continuing with a variation on that system is acceptable? Adopting a plan that provides substandard protection to the north end of Connecticut's 4th largest city is acceptable? Laying off 50 to 60 highly trained employees to replace them with in house hires that, in all likelihood, would bypass civil service tests and CPAT is acceptable?

I am not a resident of Stamford. Nor am I employed there. Yet, I just can't seem to keep my mouth shut on this subject. It is wrong. On every conceivable level this plan is fundamentally the wrong thing to do.

Edited June 14, 2010 by capnlinus

[FD828 77]

I am not saying every department, and I am not trying to offend volunteers. I work full time in a combination fire department. I work part time in a combination EMS department. And I teach volunteer and career firefighters routinely. Like almost everyone else, I started as a volunteer, and I wouldn't trade that learning experience. I have an excellent relationship with volunteers and I respect their dedication. What I am saying is that, as a pretty consistent rule, a career firefighter is going to have a larger experience pool to draw on than a volunteer. There are, of course, variations on a theme. Yes, there are busy all volunteer departments. But they are an increasingly rare find, wouldn't you agree?

There are plenty of nuances, familiarity with a crew you work with all the time, knox box locations, different alarm panels, knowing preplans cold, which response routes work better during certain times of day, general skills that are used more often, familiarity with equipment etc, etc. Yes, there are volunteer departments and indiviuals who will take the time to learn all those subjects and more. Fine. But what I am saying is that by doing the job full time more of that sinks in. You get better through repetition.

You didn't buy into the flying comparison. I've worked in both professions so I'll disagree with you on that, but we will have to save that discussion for a time when we can sit down for a pint or two. Fine, here's another- 2 certified EMTs. One is part of a "busy" volunteer department that runs 1,500 EMS calls a year. But he only rides in about 2-3 times a month. His buddy, also an EMT, works 40 hours a week for a commercial service doing 8-10 runs every tour. What will the corresponding skill levels be?

And yes there are career firefighters who are driver's only in small, slow combination departments. But let's return to the subject at hand. The volunteer departments in northern Stamford are not responding to "dozens" of workers per year. So let's not let pride and rivalry get in the way of an honest discussion of the topic at hand.

At the heart of the matter here is that politics and back room deals are coming together to continue a long and not so proud tradition of fire service dysfunction in a major city. Have people forgotten already that a month or so ago that "proud" tradition saw another chapter added when a volunteer assistant chief cancelled both career and volunteer manpower to a burning 7,000 sq foot mansion several minutes before he was on scene. What was the result? A total loss and 3 brothers injured. And that is acceptable?

Continuing with a variation on that system is acceptable? Adopting a plan that provides substandard protection to the north end of Connecticut's 4th largest city is acceptable? Laying off 50 to 60 highly trained employees to replace them with in house hires that, in all likelihood, would bypass civil service tests and CPAT is acceptable?

I am not a resident of Stamford. Nor am I employed there. Yet, I just can't seem to keep my mouth shut on this subject. It is wrong. On every conceivable level this plan is fundamentally the wrong thing to do.

Very well thought out and written. If only it wasn't falling on deaf ears.

[Guest capnlinus]

Now some these people will most assuredly be paid but to me the majority can and should be volunteer...and at the risk of starting a long debate the volunteer ranks should include the paid personnel also if they decide they want to volunteer on their off time.

Yes

I am not sure what you are referring to about paid guys volunteering in their time off. If you are referring to career guys from outside Stamford who live there and want to volunteer, well, I am not going near that subject.

If you are referring to the prospective "employees" of this new "volunteer" fire department they would be prohibited by federal law from also volunteering in the same "volunteer" department where they are "employed."

I appreciate your honesty in saying that you are interested in applying for one of these jobs in this new monstrosi....."volunteer" department. I have a couple of questions.

Why do you feel this is the best option at this time; vs the one department plan? Both require a charter revision, and you have stated several times that you feel eventually it will all be one big happy family. And I think we both agree one department is better as an end result. Why delay that then?

Do you feel that all applicants, be they in house or out, should be required to adhere to the civil service and CPAT process, and if not, why not?

In my department town residents and active Paid on Call members are given a few points on the entry written. But they still have to participate in the entire fair process. They are not handed jobs. I don't care who crawls down the hallway with me. Provided they were the best possible candidate.

Stamford just ran a test. Why not, in the interest of fiscal responsibility, that pesky Republican platform concept (the Mayor has an "R" after his name, no), why not just use this list and testing process? It costs several thousand dollars to run either an intro or promotion test.

What do you feel the long term implications will be for relations between the two work groups?

In 1985 United Airlines had a pilot strike and 535 or so of the "replacement pilots" were retained after the strike. The relations between the group of striking pilots and the "replacement pilots", who were mostly referred to as "scabs" was incredibly bad for well over a decade after the strike.

How would you feel if hiring you meant that a firefighter from the City would lose his or her job?

Why do you think Glenbrook, the only volunteer department to work with Mayor Malloy, was targeted for elimination in this plan?

Why do you think Local 786 was not provided a seat at the table, not a couple of comments at a meeting or two, but a seat at the table, during these discussions?

Pete, I am not singling you out here. But on this forum you are one of the loudest voices in favor of this plan. I would like to know what you think about these questions. I think it would be constructive. Or, at least, enlightening.

Edited June 14, 2010 by capnlinus

[Guest capnlinus]

Very well thought out and written. If only it wasn't falling on deaf ears.

Thank you. I hope it isnt falling on deaf ears. But I am afraid you may well be right.

[JAD622 40]

For example, I recently visited a friend of mine who I went through flight school with. We both went to the same schools, flew the same DC-8's for the same airline. Only 11 years ago I left professional aviation. He stayed in it and is now a first officer on the A-320 for a major airline. I still fly, he still flies. He has a proficiency level, sees things and recognizes things that I no longer do, simply because he does it professionally. Doesn't make me an unsafe pilot. It makes him better at it than I am. Because it is his profession, whereas it is now my hobby.

There is a difference, and if we are going to have an honest discussion about what option really, truly provides the best service to the citizens of Stamford, then let's be honest about it. I said it before, lets talk about what we are talking about.

An Excellent example and something the Mayor of Stamford is not capable of understanding! Good Luck to ALL the Brothers of Local 786 as this is clearly an example of Political abuse of Public Safety!

[Bnechis 3,961]

How about a "career" Firefighter that in reality is a paid driver? When was the lat time he crawled down a hallway? In those Depts. its the volunteers who do the actual firefighting. Would you consider him better then the guys on the line? Using the Pilot example he would be less, sure he drives the rig every 3rd day but he has not had the knob in 7 years, so his profency level is less.

I was a volunteer in a dept with paid drivers and they had more training than I did, but they were not allowed to go in, so they pulled up stretched a line to the front door and left it there. Then they stood at the pump panel and watched the house burn, until the volunteers showed up. That was 25+ years ago and things have changed.

There are 9 combo departments in Westchester that run with 1 or 2 career fire fighters on the rigs & still have volunteers responding. The rest are mostly career with a very small number of responding volunteers. Now of those 9 department the career guys were in the past "paid drivers" but half of those departments are lucky to get 4 or 5 volunteers to arrive at a working fire and have an average of less than 3 interior certified volunteers in the whole department. This is not speculation on my part, I have seen the numbers. So the paid driver example is kind of a great historical example. These departments average 1 or 2 working fires per year. No one is getting experience there, but the career guys are still required to have 10x the training as the volunteer chiefs.

Finally the "paid drivers" from 30 years back dont have any bearing on whats going on in Stamford.

Now

[FFPCogs 863]

I appreciate your honesty in saying that you are interested in applying for one of these jobs in this new monstrosi....."volunteer" department. I have a couple of questions.

Why would I be anything other than honest? I have a family to support and I would much rather be getting paid to do what I love doing (and am fairly good at) at home as opposed to 7000 miles away and in a war zone. Be that as it may job or no job I will remain an active volunteer for as long as I am able or until I drop dead.

Why do you feel this is the best option at this time; vs the one department plan? Both require a charter revision, and you have stated several times that you feel eventually it will all be one big happy family. And I think we both agree one department is better as an end result. Why delay that then?

The delay in unification stems from the fact that as the situation exists right now it is a good bet that SFRD personnel put into the VFDs will mean their demise. Cases in point being the much maligned Springdale and even more so Glenbrook. To that let me add that I believe this plan is the best right now because of that probable eventuality, but also because I do believe that volunteers can provide for the safety of the community and do so even better with a paid component supplementing them during the day when numbers are down. Let me also just make one small correction. I said that in the future we could be one happy family, but not until much of the animosity between the "sides" has diminished and quite frankly until the volunteers are accorded the respect most have earned so they can be treated as what they must be...a vital component in the system..not the bastard step children.

Do you feel that all applicants, be they in house or out, should be required to adhere to the civil service and CPAT process, and if not, why not?

Yes, but testing should be done for the SFVD exclusively not the entire city as it is a different department. Also any current active volunteers in good standing of that FD should recieve points for their prior service

I don't care who crawls down the hallway with me. Provided they were the best possible candidate.

Agreed

Stamford just ran a test. Why not, in the interest of fiscal responsibility, that pesky Republican platform concept (the Mayor has an "R" after his name, no), why not just use this list and testing process? It costs several thousand dollars to run either an intro or promotion test.

Different department and quite possibly different bargaining unit

What do you feel the long term implications will be for relations between the two work groups?

They will improve over time as each becomes accustomed to this "new" system. Beyond that, I for one hope and will work tirelessly to ensure that the volunteers can not only meet but exceed the challenges they will face thus hopefully improving relations as well as some misconceptions disappear. This may take years, but just as it took years for this mess to develop, so too may inter-departmental relations take years to improve off the fireground...that is dependent upon the personalities involved.

How would you feel if hiring you meant that a firefighter from the City would lose his or her job?

I have never advocated anyone losing their job, in fact I went to great lengths to developp a plan that guaranteed everyone kept theirs albeit on a different schedule. I would not want to see lay offs but to be honest I would take a job to support my family even if it meant someone from SFRD lost theirs. See as offensive as this may be to some, I did not fail 786 nor did the VFDs. They chose a course of action that ended up here and now the consequences of that choice may negatively impact them, that is not my fault.

Why do you think Glenbrook, the only volunteer department to work with Mayor Malloy, was targeted for elimination in this plan?

For me it is because they failed to respond to all but 12 calls in a year. That is a failure of epic proportions and is inexcusable as far as I'm concerned. That failure is also one that many here felt may be a protend of the future if another plan had been adopted.

Why do you think Local 786 was not provided a seat at the table, not a couple of comments at a meeting or two, but a seat at the table, during these discussions?

Why should they be. They are the bargaining unit for the employees SFRD, nothing more. 786 has no rights or voice in what goes on outside of SFRD since they have no binding agreements with the legal AHJs of any of the other fire districts in Stamford at this point and therefore can only negotiate with SFRD. 786 gave up any rights to bargain outside of the SFRD district when they chose to absorb the paid personnel that formerly worked at the VFDs and that was a choice they freely made.

The fact is this plan was agreed upon by the administrations the FDs in Stamford...they all sat up there during that press conference and agreed....and that is as it should be since they are the AHJs not 786.

Pete, I am not singling you out here. But on this forum you are one of the loudest voices in favor of this plan. I would like to know what you think about these questions. I think it would be constructive. Or, at least, enlightening.

I do not feel singled out since I believe in defending my views if need be no matter how unpopular they may seem. I hope that I have answered constructively enough or at least have "enlightened" you a bit.

Stay Safe

Cogs

_____________

Peter Cogliano

FF/ T.O.

Belltown Fire Dept

currently working with Dyncorp/LOGCAP IV

Camp Leatherneck

Afghanistan

Edited June 15, 2010 by FFPCogs

[FireMedic049 597]

Why should they be. They are the bargaining unit for the employees SFRD, nothing more. 786 has no rights or voice in what goes on outside of SFRD since they have no binding agreements with the legal AHJs of any of the other fire districts in Stamford at this point and therefore can only negotiate with SFRD. 786 gave up any rights to bargain outside of the SFRD district when they chose to absorb the paid personnel that formerly worked at the VFDs and that was a choice they freely made.

The fact is this plan was agreed upon by the administrations the FDs in Stamford...they all sat up there during that press conference and agreed....and that is as it should be since they are the AHJs not 786.

I'm amazed that you can't see why Local 786 should have been included in this process.

Unless I have a grossly incorrect understanding of the situation, the task at hand WAS to determine how to improve the provision of fire protection in Stamford and achieve a more uniform delivery of services to all of its citizens. If this process was truly "above board", then going into discussions everything between the status quo and full scale, 100% consolidation into a single department should have been on the table. Considering that there appears to have always been the intention to have paid personnel in the volunteer stations and if a single department plan was ever actually a consideration, the paid personnel in this single department would all be represented by Local 786. So why shouldn't they be included in discussions that could potentially impact their current and future bargaining unit members?

So, to me at least, if Local 786 didn't get a seat at the table for any discussions on "the future of fire protection services in Stamford", then it seems as though creating what would actually be the best way to achieve unity and uniformity of fire protection for all of Stamford (a single department) was NEVER a possibility even before the first meeting was held.

Could you explain the part I highlighted better? It didn't seem to make much sense to me.

Edited June 15, 2010 by FireMedic049

[Guest capnlinus]

I have a family to support....

The delay in unification stems from the fact that as the situation exists right now it is a good bet that SFRD personnel put into the VFDs will mean their demise. Cases in point being the much maligned Springdale and even more so Glenbrook.

Yes, but testing should be done for the SFVD exclusively not the entire city as it is a different department. Also any current active volunteers in good standing of that FD should recieve points for their prior service

I have never advocated anyone losing their job...... I would not want to see lay offs but to be honest I would take a job to support my family even if it meant someone from SFRD lost theirs. See as offensive as this may be to some, I did not fail 786 nor did the VFDs. They chose a course of action that ended up here and now the consequences of that choice may negatively impact them, that is not my fault.

Why should they be. They are the bargaining unit for the employees SFRD, nothing more. 786 has no rights or voice in what goes on outside of SFRD since they have no binding agreements with the legal AHJs of any of the other fire districts in Stamford at this point and therefore can only negotiate with SFRD. 786 gave up any rights to bargain outside of the SFRD district when they chose to absorb the paid personnel that formerly worked at the VFDs and that was a choice they freely made.

The fact is this plan was agreed upon by the administrations the FDs in Stamford...they all sat up there during that press conference and agreed....and that is as it should be since they are the AHJs not 786.

I do not feel singled out since I believe in defending my views if need be no matter how unpopular they may seem. I hope that I have answered constructively enough or at least have "enlightened" you a bit.

Ok, first of all, I couldn't figure out how to multiquote. I can fly a 300,000 pound jet, but I couldn't figure out how to multiquote. Sad. So bear with me.

I am going to try and summarize what it seems is your position. Kindly correct me where I err.

You love this job, gladly do it for free and want to do it career. Ok, but at the same time you say that you don't care about the impact, if it came right down to it, screw the guys on the job, you would take one of these new positions, because your family comes first.

You think these new jobs should involve civil service testing and CPAT, but I think, correct me here if need be, but I think you are saying testing should be limited to current members of these departments because this is not the city department?? Did I get that right?

You believe the primary reason there is a delay in moving to one department is because it would cause the volunteers' demise. I just don't understand. If the best thing for the citizens is to have one combination department, which it seems you and I agree on, why delay giving them the best possible service? It seems like you are placing the ability of volunteers to be able to respond, when they are able or it is convienent for them, above the needs of the citizens of your city.

You believe that the Local has no business in any of these proceedings, and should just shut up and take it, because of what you view are the consequences of decisions made in the past. I have to tell you, having had some experience with contentious Union fights with my part time job, I believe you are very, very mistaken. I strongly believe that Local 786 should have played a very active role in this. I also believe that the Mayor's decision to shut them out, and the apparent prevalence of this "screw 786" mentality that I believe I am hearing here, has had a deeply negative impact on this entire situation.

I understand you have a family to raise. I respect that. I really do.

But what I can't get past is that you seem not to respect the fact that these firefighters on the chopping block, many of them hired after some of these decisions you cite were made, also have families to support. These firefighters did things the right way, they passed written tests, passed CPAT, passed oral boards, attended and successfully passed recruit training. I have had several of them as recruits. They are hard working, honorable firefighters who are trying to serve their city and support their families. To just dismiss them, to say you would jump on a job that meant they would lose thiers and that's just tough cookies.......

I mean....

I am just speechless.

And I gotta tell ya.....that ain't easy to do.

I know there is animosity in both directions here in Stamford. But your position, that you would take a job no matter what. In this fiery environment. Man, that just drives an enormous wedge.

What am I missing?

With the things presented here- job no matter what, 786 has no place here, consolidation needs to be delayed to prevent the demise of the volunteers....

How am I not supposed to think that this is anything other than turf protection, job stealing, and Union busting?

[FireMedic049 597]

How am I not supposed to think that this is anything other than turf protection, job stealing, and Union busting?

Have a giant glass of the Kool Aid?

Edited June 15, 2010 by FireMedic049

[FD828 77]

Ok, first of all, I couldn't figure out how to multiquote. I can fly a 300,000 pound jet, but I couldn't figure out how to multiquote. Sad. So bear with me.

I am going to try and summarize what it seems is your position. Kindly correct me where I err.

You love this job, gladly do it for free and want to do it career. Ok, but at the same time you say that you don't care about the impact, if it came right down to it, screw the guys on the job, you would take one of these new positions, because your family comes first.

You think these new jobs should involve civil service testing and CPAT, but I think, correct me here if need be, but I think you are saying testing should be limited to current members of these departments because this is not the city department?? Did I get that right?

You believe the primary reason there is a delay in moving to one department is because it would cause the volunteers' demise. I just don't understand. If the best thing for the citizens is to have one combination department, which it seems you and I agree on, why delay giving them the best possible service? It seems like you are placing the ability of volunteers to be able to respond, when they are able or it is convienent for them, above the needs of the citizens of your city.

You believe that the Local has no business in any of these proceedings, and should just shut up and take it, because of what you view are the consequences of decisions made in the past. I have to tell you, having had some experience with contentious Union fights with my part time job, I believe you are very, very mistaken. I strongly believe that Local 786 should have played a very active role in this. I also believe that the Mayor's decision to shut them out, and the apparent prevalence of this "screw 786" mentality that I believe I am hearing here, has had a deeply negative impact on this entire situation.

I understand you have a family to raise. I respect that. I really do.

But what I can't get past is that you seem not to respect the fact that these firefighters on the chopping block, many of them hired after some of these decisions you cite were made, also have families to support. These firefighters did things the right way, they passed written tests, passed CPAT, passed oral boards, attended and successfully passed recruit training. I have had several of them as recruits. They are hard working, honorable firefighters who are trying to serve their city and support their families. To just dismiss them, to say you would jump on a job that meant they would lose thiers and that's just tough cookies.......

I mean....

I am just speechless.

And I gotta tell ya.....that ain't easy to do.

I know there is animosity in both directions here in Stamford. But your position, that you would take a job no matter what. In this fiery environment. Man, that just drives an enormous wedge.

What am I missing?

With the things presented here- job no matter what, 786 has no place here, consolidation needs to be delayed to prevent the demise of the volunteers....

How am I not supposed to think that this is anything other than turf protection, job stealing, and Union busting?

I don't think you are missing anything. The VFD's want/need paid personnel but they don't want SFRD personnel. They rather decrease the number of career staff on duty then to let SFRD in their houses... no matter what the cost to the citizens

[Bnechis 3,961]

The delay in unification stems from the fact that as the situation exists right now it is a good bet that SFRD personnel put into the VFDs will mean their demise.

Since SFRD have already been operating in the VFD's has that ment their demise or has the demise been based on the VFD's not having enough volunteers?

I do believe that volunteers can provide for the safety of the community and do so even better with a paid component supplementing them during the day when numbers are down. Let me also just make one small correction. I said that in the future we could be one happy family, but not until much of the animosity between the "sides" has diminished and quite frankly until the volunteers are accorded the respect most have earned so they can be treated as what they must be...a vital component in the system..not the bastard step children.

You believe that can, but the two total structure losses dont appear to agree. How would adding career staffing have helped save the Deep Valley Trail Fire which was at 8:50 pm?

What did the courts say about the way the career members where treated by the volunteers? Respect is a 2 way street.

Yes, but testing should be done for the SFVD exclusively not the entire city as it is a different department. Also any current active volunteers in good standing of that FD should recieve points for their prior service

So the Taxpayers of Stamford should pay twice for testing. Why should additional testing be needed? is it because some of the volunteers either did not take the test or did not score well? We should the testing be done exclusivly for 1 department? Westchester runs 1 test for towns & villages and 14 departments use that list. Maybe the career FF's who all Stamford residence paid for there training should be also given points. Maybe they should go to the top of the list.

Different department and quite possibly different bargaining unit

Or not. If Local 786 loses members and the new dept career members want to unionize (and with the history why would they not want to) 786 will have them declared a rival organization and then they can only join 786.

Beyond that, I for one hope and will work tirelessly to ensure that the volunteers can not only meet but exceed the challenges they will face thus hopefully improving relations as well as some misconceptions disappear.

So why havent the volunteers already met and exceed the challenges they have already been face. Its great to say we will do better in the future, but they have been saying that for the last few years.

I have never advocated anyone losing their job, in fact I went to great lengths to developp a plan that guaranteed everyone kept theirs albeit on a different schedule. I would not want to see lay offs but to be honest I would take a job to support my family even if it meant someone from SFRD lost theirs.

So suggest that any SFRD members that are laid off are the 1st hired before yourself or any new hires.

Why should they be. They are the bargaining unit for the employees SFRD, nothing more. 786 has no rights or voice in what goes on outside of SFRD since they have no binding agreements with the legal AHJs of any of the other fire districts in Stamford at this point and therefore can only negotiate with SFRD. 786 gave up any rights to bargain outside of the SFRD district when they chose to absorb the paid personnel that formerly worked at the VFDs and that was a choice they freely made.

If there is enven a slim chance of layoffs in SFRD and a reduction of fire services in downtown then 786 has a legal and moral obligation to be at the table. Since 786 already represents members who work in North Stamford then they should have been at the table. The fact that they were not shows that someone has either an agenda or something to hid.

[FFPCogs 863]

Ok, first of all, I couldn't figure out how to multiquote. I can fly a 300,000 pound jet, but I couldn't figure out how to multiquote. Sad. So bear with me.

I am going to try and summarize what it seems is your position. Kindly correct me where I err.

You love this job, gladly do it for free and want to do it career. Ok, but at the same time you say that you don't care about the impact, if it came right down to it, screw the guys on the job, you would take one of these new positions, because your family comes first.

I would take a position yes as is my right. And yes my family comes first just as it does for any other family provider and I don't apologize for that.

As I said before the members of Local 786 chose a course of action or at least the leaders that pursued that course, that that decision may negatively affect those members is not my fault...it is theirs for allowing it to continue. In the end they will have the same right to apply and go through whatever process is determined to gain a position as I will, should they be laid off.

You think these new jobs should involve civil service testing and CPAT, but I think, correct me here if need be, but I think you are saying testing should be limited to current members of these departments because this is not the city department?? Did I get that right?

No.

Testing should be an open competitive exam in which current members in good standing of the VFDs get points for their service..a very common practice which I believe you said your department employs

You believe the primary reason there is a delay in moving to one department is because it would cause the volunteers' demise. I just don't understand. If the best thing for the citizens is to have one combination department, which it seems you and I agree on, why delay giving them the best possible service? It seems like you are placing the ability of volunteers to be able to respond, when they are able or it is convienent for them, above the needs of the citizens of your city.

It may seem that way but that is not the case at all. I simply don't believe that SFRD is the best possible service. And let's get something straight I have never ever advocated "placing the ability of volunteers to be able to respond, when they are able or it is convienent for them, above the needs of the citizens of your city"...if indeed you have read my posts you will see that I call for 24/7 coverage utilizing both career and shift coverage by volunteers. That aside the climate is not condusive to unification right now due to a number of factors including the animosity created by the attempted forced "merger" of the VFDs into SFRD with NO regard for the law. That utter disregard by the way speaks volumes as to the true motives of the merger. Once this new entity becomes a reality, if in fact it does, I have every confidence that it will meet the needs of the community better than the seperate VFDs do now.

You believe that the Local has no business in any of these proceedings, and should just shut up and take it, because of what you view are the consequences of decisions made in the past. I have to tell you, having had some experience with contentious Union fights with my part time job, I believe you are very, very mistaken. I strongly believe that Local 786 should have played a very active role in this. I also believe that the Mayor's decision to shut them out, and the apparent prevalence of this "screw 786" mentality that I believe I am hearing here, has had a deeply negative impact on this entire situation.

Well the same could be said of the previous Mayor's methods in dealing with the VFDs. On top of that they have no one to negotiate with other than the City in regards to their jobs with SFRD, which has NO jurisdiction out of that district. It may not be fair but alas it is the way it is.

What I find interesting is that some here find 786s omission offensive and having a "deeply negative impact" while omitting the VFDs from the previous negotiations seemed to be a perfectly fine method. How is that different and not also deeply negative? And how could any level of trust be possible when that was the tactic chosen? It seems to me that a huge double standard exists here that unfortunately for some no longer applies in Stamford.

But what I can't get past is that you seem not to respect the fact that these firefighters on the chopping block, many of them hired after some of these decisions you cite were made, also have families to support. These firefighters did things the right way, they passed written tests, passed CPAT, passed oral boards, attended and successfully passed recruit training. I have had several of them as recruits. They are hard working, honorable firefighters who are trying to serve their city and support their families. To just dismiss them, to say you would jump on a job that meant they would lose thiers and that's just tough cookies.......

Well I waited til now to address this. The Mayor has already publically stated there will be No layoffs, so this furor is misplaced at best or simply scare tactics.

How am I not supposed to think that this is anything other than turf protection, job stealing, and Union busting?

You are of course entitled to think whatever you wish.

Stay Safe

Cogs

_____________

Peter Cogliano

FF/ T.O.

Belltown Fire Dept

currently working with Dyncorp/LOGCAP IV

Camp Leatherneck

Afghanistan

Edited June 15, 2010 by FFPCogs

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I am not saying every department, and I am not trying to offend volunteers. I work full time in a combination fire department. I work part time in a combination EMS department. And I teach volunteer and career firefighters routinely. Like almost everyone else, I started as a volunteer, and I wouldn't trade that learning experience. I have an excellent relationship with volunteers and I respect their dedication. What I am saying is that, as a pretty consistent rule, a career firefighter is going to have a larger experience pool to draw on than a volunteer. There are, of course, variations on a theme. Yes, there are busy all volunteer departments. But they are an increasingly rare find, wouldn't you agree?

There are plenty of nuances, familiarity with a crew you work with all the time, knox box locations, different alarm panels, knowing preplans cold, which response routes work better during certain times of day, general skills that are used more often, familiarity with equipment etc, etc. Yes, there are volunteer departments and indiviuals who will take the time to learn all those subjects and more. Fine. But what I am saying is that by doing the job full time more of that sinks in. You get better through repetition.

You didn't buy into the flying comparison. I've worked in both professions so I'll disagree with you on that, but we will have to save that discussion for a time when we can sit down for a pint or two. Fine, here's another- 2 certified EMTs. One is part of a "busy" volunteer department that runs 1,500 EMS calls a year. But he only rides in about 2-3 times a month. His buddy, also an EMT, works 40 hours a week for a commercial service doing 8-10 runs every tour. What will the corresponding skill levels be?

And yes there are career firefighters who are driver's only in small, slow combination departments. But let's return to the subject at hand. The volunteer departments in northern Stamford are not responding to "dozens" of workers per year. So let's not let pride and rivalry get in the way of an honest discussion of the topic at hand.

At the heart of the matter here is that politics and back room deals are coming together to continue a long and not so proud tradition of fire service dysfunction in a major city. Have people forgotten already that a month or so ago that "proud" tradition saw another chapter added when a volunteer assistant chief cancelled both career and volunteer manpower to a burning 7,000 sq foot mansion several minutes before he was on scene. What was the result? A total loss and 3 brothers injured. And that is acceptable?

Continuing with a variation on that system is acceptable? Adopting a plan that provides substandard protection to the north end of Connecticut's 4th largest city is acceptable? Laying off 50 to 60 highly trained employees to replace them with in house hires that, in all likelihood, would bypass civil service tests and CPAT is acceptable?

I am not a resident of Stamford. Nor am I employed there. Yet, I just can't seem to keep my mouth shut on this subject. It is wrong. On every conceivable level this plan is fundamentally the wrong thing to do.

I agree that the "busy" all Volunteer Dept. may be rare, but maybe not as rare as you think. As for the nuances about knox boxes, pre-plans, hazzards, ect... if you have a good dispatch system your dispatcher can give the needed info over the radio, or it can be sent to the firehouses in run sheets. A timely "prompt" by your dispatcher can help as well if they know the IC may be forgetting something. I know one dept. by me who has "target buildings" announced by the Dispatch center as "pre-plan #1 or #5 or whatever # the building is, the rigs all know where to go, if they are unsure there is a book in each rig going over where they should stage. Almost all the Depts. have automatic m/a multi alarm procedures so all the IC has to do is call a signal and the m/a is filled in.

Crews, although not as consistent with a career crew, most volunteer depts. especially in the day rely on the same core nucleus of guys. So in that respect you do know the guys on your "crew". I know the same guys each company will turn out for day calls, day after day. in fact if one of the shift worker day crew guys changes his hours it will be known, "so and so just switched to 8-4's this week." As far as being familiar with the equipment, in my Dept. if you don't know the equipment, then you don't ride the rig, its' that simple. It aint rocket science.

Some times my views are slanted because of the system I have been involved with for 26 years. Despite what alot of you may say about LI Fire Departments (lidsville, I think some of you fellas like to say) There are many, many busy FD's who get alot of work. So that said I may be disillusioned that this is the norm in other areas, maybe I focus to much on the Port Chester's, Ossining's and Mamoronecks when I think about Westchester as far as size of Dept.

But again this is all about Stamford, not Westchester or Long Island. I had said in an earlier post that I thought the Volunteer companies in Stamford should have consolidated long ago, maybe some of this would have been prevented. I also had posted in the thread bout the fire that agreed with all the sentiments posted that the Chief did a disgraceful job handling that fire. You are right it was pride about "let's beat the city in and cancel them" before they even were on scene. The "culture" of lets not let the career city guys in our area came back to bite them.

As for the pint I'll buy the first round!!

Be safe.

[FFPCogs 863]

I'm amazed that you can't see why Local 786 should have been included in this process.

Unless I have a grossly incorrect understanding of the situation, the task at hand WAS to determine how to improve the provision of fire protection in Stamford and achieve a more uniform delivery of services to all of its citizens. If this process was truly "above board", then going into discussions everything between the status quo and full scale, 100% consolidation into a single department should have been on the table. Considering that there appears to have always been the intention to have paid personnel in the volunteer stations and if a single department plan was ever actually a consideration, the paid personnel in this single department would all be represented by Local 786. So why shouldn't they be included in discussions that could potentially impact their current and future bargaining unit members?

So, to me at least, if Local 786 didn't get a seat at the table for any discussions on "the future of fire protection services in Stamford", then it seems as though creating what would actually be the best way to achieve unity and uniformity of fire protection for all of Stamford (a single department) was NEVER a possibility even before the first meeting was held.

Every participant had the opportunity to address the Task Force with their plans, and while 786 does have the right and responsibility to represent the employees of SFRD, it is the administration of that Dept that has the authority to develop and propose any plans in which they will be the major "shareholder". Any negotiations on how those plans would effect the "rank and file" union members should have been dealt with in negotiation with the SFRD administration prior to those plans being proposed. Niether the City nor the VFDs owes 786 anything in regards to the development of this new entity until such time as there are career employees to represent from it.

What would be the attitude if the volunteers Chiefs were to demand a say in the next round of contact negotiations between the City and 786? For that matter what was the attitude regarding the previous merger plans and the installation of SFRD employees into the VFDs?

Could you explain the part I highlighted better? It didn't seem to make much sense to me.

786 has NO employees working for the VFDs for whom they can negotiate regarding any future plans. If the "new" career personnel choose to become 786 members then and only then can 786 represent them. The current SFRD personnel, hence 786 members, in the volunteer houses are the sole responsibility of SFRD who assigned them at the request (which can be rescinded at any time) of the Springdale and Glenbrook VFDs.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I was a volunteer in a dept with paid drivers and they had more training than I did, but they were not allowed to go in, so they pulled up stretched a line to the front door and left it there. Then they stood at the pump panel and watched the house burn, until the volunteers showed up. That was 25+ years ago and things have changed.

There are 9 combo departments in Westchester that run with 1 or 2 career fire fighters on the rigs & still have volunteers responding. The rest are mostly career with a very small number of responding volunteers. Now of those 9 department the career guys were in the past "paid drivers" but half of those departments are lucky to get 4 or 5 volunteers to arrive at a working fire and have an average of less than 3 interior certified volunteers in the whole department. This is not speculation on my part, I have seen the numbers. So the paid driver example is kind of a great historical example. These departments average 1 or 2 working fires per year. No one is getting experience there, but the career guys are still required to have 10x the training as the volunteer chiefs.

Finally the "paid drivers" from 30 years back dont have any bearing on whats going on in Stamford.

Now

Agreed, the paid driver example has nothing to do with the Stamford situation, I was using that as an example towards the "career guy always having more experience then a volunteer" just because of a title? Will the volunteer be better, no, but I would suspect he could be on equal terms many of the time....we will agree to disagree.

Edited June 15, 2010 by spin_the_wheel

[x152 179]

"I would not want to see lay offs but to be honest I would take a job to support my family even if it meant someone from SFRD lost theirs."

Thanks for the honesty Peter.

It a nutshell, this is the type of attitude that many have suspected.

I appreciate knowing where you really stand and where your support for this plan is coming from. I am sure that many members of the Stamford Fire and Rescue Department also appreciate seeing you own up to this belief.

Edited June 15, 2010 by x152

[Guest capnlinus]

I agree that the "busy" all Volunteer Dept. may be rare, but maybe not as rare as you think. As for the nuances about knox boxes, pre-plans, hazzards, ect... if you have a good dispatch system your dispatcher can give the needed info over the radio, or it can be sent to the firehouses in run sheets. A timely "prompt" by your dispatcher can help as well if they know the IC may be forgetting something. I know one dept. by me who has "target buildings" announced by the Dispatch center as "pre-plan #1 or #5 or whatever # the building is, the rigs all know where to go, if they are unsure there is a book in each rig going over where they should stage. Almost all the Depts. have automatic m/a multi alarm procedures so all the IC has to do is call a signal and the m/a is filled in.

Crews, although not as consistent with a career crew, most volunteer depts. especially in the day rely on the same core nucleus of guys. So in that respect you do know the guys on your "crew". I know the same guys each company will turn out for day calls, day after day. in fact if one of the shift worker day crew guys changes his hours it will be known, "so and so just switched to 8-4's this week." As far as being familiar with the equipment, in my Dept. if you don't know the equipment, then you don't ride the rig, its' that simple. It aint rocket science.

Some times my views are slanted because of the system I have been involved with for 26 years. Despite what alot of you may say about LI Fire Departments (lidsville, I think some of you fellas like to say) There are many, many busy FD's who get alot of work. So that said I may be disillusioned that this is the norm in other areas, maybe I focus to much on the Port Chester's, Ossining's and Mamoronecks when I think about Westchester as far as size of Dept.

But again this is all about Stamford, not Westchester or Long Island. I had said in an earlier post that I thought the Volunteer companies in Stamford should have consolidated long ago, maybe some of this would have been prevented. I also had posted in the thread bout the fire that agreed with all the sentiments posted that the Chief did a disgraceful job handling that fire. You are right it was pride about "let's beat the city in and cancel them" before they even were on scene. The "culture" of lets not let the career city guys in our area came back to bite them.

As for the pint I'll buy the first round!!

Be safe.

I'll start with a Guiness. After reading your response a couple of times I think I understand where you are coming from. The volunteer departments on the Island are, for many reasons, pretty unique. Not a shot, but I don't think there is another area of the country quite like Long Island. Not saying that is good, bad, or otherwise. It just is.

I give Pete credit for owning up to his goal through all of this. He has been very clear about his feelings regarding taking a job, the Local, and his view of the role of volunteers in Stamford. I am glad he has been this open with his views. I believe, after reading 35 pages here and 15 on another forum, that his view is probably the standard among many of the volunteers in these departments, especially those who see themselves in line for an easy city job. Even if it is at the expense of trained firefighters who are already on the job. Even at the expense of providing the best possible service to the citizens of that city. Who deserve nothing less, don't ya think?

I can not accept that this solution is better than 1 combination department with a role for the volunteers. I work in 2 such departments, and in both cases, it works very well. All the excuses I see for not doing that are, in my view, disingenuous at best.

I believe we all now have a pretty clear idea of the thinking among many of the members and the leadership of these 4 volunteer departments. It is a turf battle and a job grab at the expense of the citizens and city firefighters. It is an all out attack on Labor by a Mayor looking to make a mark in all the wrong ways.

Personally, I find the tactics, goals, and politics in use here to be nothing less than repugnant.

[eckyphats 0]

so in a nutshell, are 60 volunteer firefighters from the volunteer departments going to be hired?

[Jason762 2]

I believe, after reading 35 pages here and 15 on another forum, that his view is probably the standard among many of the volunteers in these departments, especially those who see themselves in line for an easy city job. Even if it is at the expense of trained firefighters who are already on the job. Even at the expense of providing the best possible service to the citizens of that city. Who deserve nothing less, don't ya think?

I believe the key term here is "on the job". The firefighters that are possibly going to be replaced are truly "on the job". They took a competative written and physical agility test, passed a medical exam, attended a 14 or so week academy and work on engine/truck/rescue companies with a crew and boss. What these future "career" positions are is nothing short of scab positions that are going to be handed out to friends of the right people, some of whom could not pass a third grade spelling test. It is an absolute disgrace to not only Stamford but the fire service as a whole and it certainly screams to me "well I couldn't get on the job anywhere through the front door, so let me just sneek in through the back". Horrible and sickening!!!

[TimesUp 148]

If these jobs are ever handed out without any sort of testing then the same proponents of it will start stabbing each other in the back. It will be some show. Somebody is going to take their ball and go home. Who's the favorite for being the biggest back stabber? I think we all know!

"

[FFPCogs 863]

positions that are going to be handed out to friends of the right people, some of whom could not pass a third grade spelling test.

Oh you mean like the guys that scored in the 40s on the SFRD test and got hired over those with higher scores, which was to use your words...

an absolute disgrace to not only Stamford but the fire service as a whole

Horrible and sickening!!!

The fact is the Union "supported" the ill concieved and illegal plans of the previous administration and those plans failed. Now under this new Administration a new plan has emerged but unlike the previous one the Union has only limited involvement in the process. This because they have no legal rights to negotiate as they are not the legal Authority Having Jurisdiction and have no personnel working for the fire districts in question. End of story

Stay Safe

Cogs

_____________

Peter Cogliano

FF/ T.O.

Belltown Fire Dept

currently working with Dyncorp/LOGCAP IV

Camp Leatherneck

Afghanistan

Edited June 16, 2010 by FFPCogs

[FireMedic049 597]

Every participant had the opportunity to address the Task Force with their plans, and while 786 does have the right and responsibility to represent the employees of SFRD, it is the administration of that Dept that has the authority to develop and propose any plans in which they will be the major "shareholder". Any negotiations on how those plans would effect the "rank and file" union members should have been dealt with in negotiation with the SFRD administration prior to those plans being proposed. Niether the City nor the VFDs owes 786 anything in regards to the development of this new entity until such time as there are career employees to represent from it.

So then I take from this response that the proposal of a single department structure coming out of this Task Force was NEVER a possibility from the start.

What would be the attitude if the volunteers Chiefs were to demand a say in the next round of contact negotiations between the City and 786? For that matter what was the attitude regarding the previous merger plans and the installation of SFRD employees into the VFDs?

I'm not sure who's attitude your referring to, but I'm sure the Union's attitude towards those Chiefs regarding contract negotiations could be simply GFY since they absolutely have no standing for those discussions. The City is their employer and the Local is the bargaining agent for the employees of SFRD.

As I said before, if the single department concept was on the table going into discussions, then Local 786 should absolutely have been involved since ALL paid firefighters in the combined department would be represented by them.

I have no idea what the attitudes were regarding the previous merger plans.

786 has NO employees working for the VFDs for whom they can negotiate regarding any future plans. If the "new" career personnel choose to become 786 members then and only then can 786 represent them. The current SFRD personnel, hence 786 members, in the volunteer houses are the sole responsibility of SFRD who assigned them at the request (which can be rescinded at any time) of the Springdale and Glenbrook VFDs.

You would be correct with this under the proposed plan. However, this really didn't clarify the statement I asked about. Edited June 16, 2010 by FireMedic049

[Guest capnlinus]

The fact is the Union "supported" the ill concieved and illegal plans of the previous administration and those plans failed. Now under this new Administration a new plan has emerged but unlike the previous one the Union has only limited involvement in the process. This because they have no legal rights to negotiate as they are not the legal Authority Having Jurisdiction and have no personnel working for the fire districts in question. End of story

Pete, I keep hearing AHJ thrown around. These new employees will be city employees, as far as it seems. Also, you keep saying the Union negotiates with the SFRD administration. I don't believe that is completely accurate. Yes, the administration is at the table, but the Union negotiates with the city.

Malloy's plan required a charter revision. So does this one. So isn't this plan, under that logic, currently illegal also?

And as it was pointed out, the Union represents firefighters that have been assigned to these areas for 2 years. Whether you like it or not, they should have been at the table.

Also, for everyone out there, especially those volunteers both inside and outside Stamford that see these potential jobs as a lottery ticket in a fixed game, just take a look at the level of anger on both of these forums about this.

Anyone that takes these jobs, if they come to fruition, will at best be walking into a hornet's nest of ill will and legal battles. At worst, you will be forever associated with ill gotten jobs and screwing brother and sister firefighters out of legitimate jobs, putting them on the unemployment line. Earning the respect of brother and sister firefighters throughout the region will be very difficult I would think. And that is a tough environment to work in. Just something to think about. This is an unbelievably toxic situation to walk into.

It may seem hokey, but it is true- earning the respect of your fellow firefighters is a very important nuance to our job. Respecting each other, being able to trust each other is a big part of that whole brotherhood concept. That is a term that too many of us throw around too casually. The respect of your peers means something. Or, at least, it damn well should. It's an honor thing.

Keep in mind that a good reputation in the fire service is very hard to earn, very easy to lose, and CT is a very small fire service community.

Now, don't have a wiggins on me. I am not saying don't take a job, or do take a job with this new "volunteer" fire department if it actually happens. I know what decision I would make. Each of you must make your own. But for the hundreds of guys out there desperate to get on a job (and I remember how that feels), I am just saying this particular situation, this potential job with the Stamford "Volunteer" Fire Department is one you want to look at with your eyes wide open. This is a brutally tough situation, and looks to remain that way for years. Regardless of what the outcome is.

The Mayor's team should have stayed behind closed doors and thought about this plan and its ramifications a tad bit longer.

Pete, I will address one thing you brought up. This layoff talk, anyone that believes this Mayor will keep his word about no layoffs is either nieve, ignorant, or has another agenda. I do not believe for a fraction of a second that you are nieve or ignorant. You have, however, made it clear your agenda is one of these jobs. So let's just leave it at that.

Because nobody here with a clue thinks that this layoff talk is a Union scare tactic. Including, I believe, you.

Edited June 16, 2010 by capnlinus