Update on Stamford Merger

[x635 4,066]

My question is, if Stamford has ONE Police Department, ONE EMS service, ONE Department Of Public Works, ONE City Hall, etc etc....then what's the need for 6 seperate fire departments? I'm not saying the volunteer system needs to be abolished, I'm just saying their is a lot of fat that can be trimmed and responses standardized and streamlined.

Let's try to remember that we're all here for one reason....to protect the public we're sworn to serve. Imagine if everyone took all this energy and passion and put it into training, equipment, public education, etc. Instead, it's being wasted on pointless tit-tat egos and pride (not this thread, I'm referencing what's actually going on). Everyone is so passionate about fighting with one another.

ALL Stamford FD's should be given a lesson on UNITY and COMPRIMISE.

This whole situation is an embarrasment to the fire service, and a fine example of politics, egos, and heritage holding the fire service back and ultimately costing lives and property. You have some GREAT minds and experience on both sides of the debate.....imagine if both sides synergized and set an example for departments across the US.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

I dont really want to weigh in on these issues because I have ties to both sides and as I have seen comments posted on this site can lead to repercussions in other settings. That being said, I read earlier in a post by Cogs a reference to the Kentland Fire Dept. I just have a question, because you hail their praises, which is a whole nother issue, who do you think is manning that station for the most part 24/7.

[pjreilly 6]

Just another thought, and let me say in advance no offense intended to the author of the quote below.

Upon rereading this post it dawned on me that there are other factors at work here besides simply "control". Let's be honest here in that the ultimate goal of the current administration (and most likely Local 786) is the eradication of the volunteer system in Stamford. As stated here in the past, paid FFs in the volunteer houses were drawn from the ranks of the volunteers in those departments. This helped to ensure there was at least a modicum of loyalty to the department and more importantly to the neighborhood by the paid personnel. These are people who live in Stamford, who have a vested interest in what happens there. Most SRFD personnel are now NOT from Stamford and therefore generally are not affected (other than in their paycheck) after their shift ends. Their interest and loyalty lie with the communities in which they live, as it should.

In this respect this is the one area in which looking back may be one of the best reasons to maintain the volunteers. Now I know Stamford has changed considerably in my lifetime, but the volunteer houses have remained a focal point to those neighborhoods and the members still live in Stamford. They still have a vested interest in what happens there, and a concern for their neighbors which is uncommon to non residents. This is not to say that SRFD personnel would not perform their duty to the utmost, of course they would. But after their 24 is up, there generally is no further involvement with the community. The volunteers on the other hand are consistently active within ther community on many levels because these are their friends and neighbors.

Again this reasoning to maintain the VFDs is dependent on their ability to meet the operational challenges of today, while keeping these qualities of community involvement alive.

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

Hey Cogs, Here is a little , and I do mean little, of what the SFRD does when we are not working.

MDA thankfulStaff Reports

Article Launched: 06/27/2008 01:00:00 AM EDT

To the editor:

Thank you to the Stamford Firefighters Local 786, who "filled the boot" on Saturday, June 14. With the support of the community, Local 786 raised $6,500 to benefit the Muscular Dystrophy Association.

With a generous $500 donation from Jimmy's Seaside Restaurant and support from the community, the Stamford firefighters were able to continue their unwavering support of the MDA. The Local 786 has collected more than $72,700 during their Fill-the-Boot campaign and their golf tournaments since 2002. All proceeds raised during the street-side campaign help support MDA services and research programs, including its summer camp program for people ages 6 to 21 affected by neuromuscular disease.

Thank you to the citizens of Stamford for all of their continuous support of Local 786. The MDA also extends a special thank-you to the local heroes, the firefighters, who have devoted their time to battling neuromuscular disease.

Deidre Treanor

Hawthorne, N.Y.

The writer is district director of the MDA of the Lower Hudson Valley & Fairfield County.

I guess we all dont run home after our shifts are over.

[FFPCogs 863]

Well PJ,

From my experience in talking, visiting and working with members of that department it is the volunteer members who man that station. These include IAFF members from surrounding departments as well as live in...as previouly stated... and live out members. And yes I say IAFF members, since they are ACTIVE VOLUNTEER members of the 100% volunteer Kentland FD. They are not prohibited from volunteering unlike many locals here since the IAFF lost a lawsuit in Maryland a few years back. It would be great to see IAFF members again riding the apparatus as volunteer members of the BFD or any other VFD there like in years past. I fought quite a few fires there alongside BFD and other volunteer firefighters employed by the SFD, FDNY and other career departments.

Since you seem to know about the system there you must also be aware that generally speaking volunteer departments in Maryland are staffed 24/7..there is no POV or home response. Volunteers are assigned shifts, and required to attend the same academy as their career counterparts.

While I'm at it I am NOT "hailing their praises," I am simply offering an example of a system in which a 100% volunteer fire department can and does effectively cover it's response area. They are part of a larger countywide combination department which includes other 100% volunteer stations as well.

What it comes right down to is: it is in everyones best interest to look at ALL the alternatives and from there to determine which will best suit the needs of Stamford. It is by no means a forgone conclusion that a SRFD presence is that alternative..although it very well may be.

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

[FFPCogs 863]

To PJRielly,

$72,700 raised on behalf of the MDA since 2002 is indeed a most noble accomplishment that without question shows the dedication and commitment your local has to the community. I have nothing but respect and admiration for such good works. If my post here offended you or suggested that Local 786 has NO interest in the community at large I do apologize.

My intent was that by the simple fact of residency in Stamford volunteer members are more attuned to and affected by day to day life within the city and their neighborhoods.

It is refreshing to see that you don't all "run home" after your shift ends. You are to be commended for that.

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

[FFPCogs 863]

There is another aspect of this I haven't touched on. That is the whole reasoning for this mess to begin with according to Mayor Malloy. Budgetary concerns. From what I've read this whole thing started because Malloy and Co. felt that to control overtime and have better accounting of the monies used by the volunteers, somehow putting SRFD personnel into those houses would solve the problem. Maybe so, but it seems to me that since those salaries are no longer needed to pay for personnel at the BFD that the city saves money. Also since the residents of that district have now been taxed for paid personnel, and they are NOT there, where's that money going. Why don't those tax dollars find their way into the BFDs budget. Like I have stated before my mother still lives in Belltown and she is now in effect paying for services she is NOT getting due too the drasic cut in the BFD's budget. She is entitled to have her tax dollars go towards her fire protection regardless of whether there's a paid or volunteer crew responding.

I find it somewhat disconcerting that her safety is truly put at risk simply for someone's salary.

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Cogs, my point exactly, off-duty IAFF members are manning that station much of the time. Especially during the day when the vollies are at work, which I pesonally have no problem with. But I can see a conflict of interests developing with mutual aid responses as occurs in Stamford. While on that note what is the alarm assignment for a full box asignment in Belltown? I think it is a full SFRD assignment in addition to the BFD. I would say thats better than adequate coverage and doubt puplic safety is ever at risk.

[Flyboy69 1]

There is another aspect of this I haven't touched on. That is the whole reasoning for this mess to begin with according to Mayor Malloy. Budgetary concerns. From what I've read this whole thing started because Malloy and Co. felt that to control overtime and have better accounting of the monies used by the volunteers, somehow putting SRFD personnel into those houses would solve the problem. Maybe so, but it seems to me that since those salaries are no longer needed to pay for personnel at the BFD that the city saves money. Also since the residents of that district have now been taxed for paid personnel, and they are NOT there, where's that money going. Why don't those tax dollars find their way into the BFDs budget. Like I have stated before my mother still lives in Belltown and she is now in effect paying for services she is NOT getting due too the drasic cut in the BFD's budget. She is entitled to have her tax dollars go towards her fire protection regardless of whether there's a paid or volunteer crew responding.

I find it somewhat disconcerting that her safety is truly put at risk simply for someone's salary.

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

You say the residents are being taxed for firefighters that are not there, that is not really true. Even though BFD has no paid firefighters, the residents are getting a SFRD Engine on EVERY medical call, they are getting an SFRD Engine, Truck and Deputy on EVERY fire call, they are getting a SFRD Engine and Rescue on EVERY car accident, etc. Plus SFRD provides Fire Marshal service to the residents of Belltown 24/7 365. This is what the Belltown Volunteer management requested from the SFRD because they could not guarantee a volunteer response to all calls. So they are getting what the paid for, in fact more than what they are paying for.

[mstrang1 213]

**************, you are right, my comments would not hold up in court. Good thing we are not in one.

FFCogs- They DO still label themselves, incorrectly, as volunteer Departments.

[FFPCogs 863]

Ok now we're really cookin'

I'll address the points directed at me one at a time

To PJ DeBart,

I too have absolutely NO problem with career firefighters responding as VOLUNTEERS. As for conflicts of interest, well I don't understand it...for years SRFD and other career firefighters were active volunteers in the Big 5. There apparently was no conflict of interest then so why is there one now. Who is it that decided that union members could no longer volunteer..not the VFD's.

As for the response, I do believe you are correct. So here again why is it necessary to put SRFD personnel in the BFD station? As stated here by a few people the citizens of Belltown are currently getting an adequate or better than adequate response as is..so leave it alone.

To Flyboy,

It is my understanding that taxes were raised to fund full time 24/7 365 coverage by SRFD personnel in the volunteer stations. Since those personnel are NOT currently assigned to the BFD there is a discrepancy as to who is recieving those funds. Also the fact remains that by cutting the BFDs budget people are at risk since they will be hard pressed to meet their responsibilities with less funding no matter what mutual aid agreements are in place. Another thing, the city must have also agreed to that mutual aid agreement as it was requested. It seems to me that they now want to change it.

And in response to your statements about the citizens of Belltown receiving more than they pay for my reply is the same as for PJ above..if their needs are met now..why change it. Like my father used to say "if it ain't broke don't fix it".

To Mstrang1

Again thanks for the clarification

Here's another view as well. Arbitrarily forcing the BFD to make due with a drastically cut budget is like arbitrarily asking all 786 members to go to work for 1/2 pay and no benefits. How well would that sit with union members? And this view isn't apples and oranges either...this is about the budget according to the Mayor.

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

[pjreilly 6]

Cogs,

It is the IAFF that prohibits its members from volunteering. WHen you are sworn in, you swear to abide by the International's rules and regs. I know that there are many that don't, but if I agree to abide by the rules, that's what I will do. PERIOD. If you can't abide by the rules, don't get a job that is in the IAFF. Stick to volunteering

[gamewell45 258]

Cogs,

It is the IAFF that prohibits its members from volunteering. WHen you are sworn in, you swear to abide by the International's rules and regs. I know that there are many that don't, but if I agree to abide by the rules, that's what I will do. PERIOD. If you can't abide by the rules, don't get a job that is in the IAFF. Stick to volunteering

Your absolutely correct that they are required to follow the internationals rules and regs; however the union should be very careful. If those members of IAFF decide to resign their membership and become agency fee payer members (non-members but they still pay a fee equal to their dues), they won't be bound by the International's rules and regs. I've seen it happen before in other unions and in the end it ends up hurting the internationals. Telling someone what they can do outside of their job can be very risky and have negative results towards the union.

[jcoppola 52]

Cogs,

It is the IAFF that prohibits its members from volunteering. WHen you are sworn in, you swear to abide by the International's rules and regs. I know that there are many that don't, but if I agree to abide by the rules, that's what I will do. PERIOD. If you can't abide by the rules, don't get a job that is in the IAFF. Stick to volunteering

PJ,

Let me point out a fact and play devil's advocate for a moment . Recently, a law was passed, not sure if it was Federal or State, but a local union cannot prohibit a member from volunteering, in fact, it is illegal to have such language in thier collective bargaining agreement. I come from a department where we could not give a flying you know what if our members volunteer as long as they are not doing it where there are paid personnel and we hear problems are resulting.

I have far too many irons in the fire, but if I had more time I would consider joining the local volunteer fire company in my town to make it better for my family and my neighbors. NO ONE is going to tell me what organizations I can be a member of, period, not my local or any other. I would always use common sense. I have always stood firm on that opinion. You all know this comes from fact and you all know my reputation as a long-time Recording Secretary of Local 830, Norwalk Professional Fire Fighters Association. If a person wishes to take on the dual role of a volunteer and a paid guy, that is their perogative, they assume the responsibility of proving which department a long term injury came from. I am not prepared to take on that hassle at this time, but I may in the future.

No locals are losing personnel because people are volunteering, in fact my department just added 2 new positions on the line and I read recently that Stamford added a bunch of firefighters and officers, so SFRD should be the LAST fire department worried about guys volunteering on their own time. I know of many members of both of our locals who volunteer and we choose to ignore it, why should this issue be any different?

Just discussing...not looking for a war, I would also be totally willing to discuss this one on one if you choose, shoot and email and I will give you my cell #, you may even have it.

JV Coppola

[FFPCogs 863]

We have apparently diverted from the main topic here. I am more than happy to discuss IAFF members being allowed to volunteer. The constitutionalty of being banned from doing so has now been challenged in some States. Point of fact, in EVERY State in which this IAFF regulation was challenged it was defeated in court. What people do outside of work is their business.

That being said I will now return to the topic at hand.

Just to review:

1st off this whole sitiuation stems from the City administration attempting to force the BFD to accept a consolidation plan which they did NOT agree to.

2nd the basis of the City's decision was supposedly financial. According to the Mayor by consolidating all paid personnel into the SRFD, money will be saved. Although how this will be accomplished is not exactly clear.

3rd Belltown and the other VFD's in Stamford are independent entities by city charter and as such are entitled to decide how and where within their district funding goes. It is the City's responsibility to provide adequate funding for each department based on taxes raised in those districts and a realistic determination of what is needed to effectively operate a fire department.

4th In reality there are other factors at work here ranging from "control" issues to the complete eradication of the volunteer system in Stamford.

5th All involved parties have to step back and objectively review the situation and ALL alternatives to create a viable and mutually acceptable solution.

To PJ DeBart:

I fully understand your point about IAFF members staffing Kentland apparatus, but I am sure that the volunteers there would still meet their obligations without those members. Fortunately for them it is not an issue. Again maybe the parties involved here should pull their collective heads out of the sand and look to other municipalities and regions for some answers to this situation.

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

[Flyboy69 1]

The recent Ct law only applies to municipalities, not to unions, in fact the municipalities must work out a agreement between them selfs before a paid firefighter may volunteer. Here is Public Act 08-131 http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/act/Pa/pdf/2008...HB-05646-PA.PDF .

[jcoppola 52]

The recent Ct law only applies to municipalities, not to unions, in fact the municipalities must work out a agreement between them selfs before a paid firefighter may volunteer. Here is Public Act 08-131 http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/act/Pa/pdf/2008...HB-05646-PA.PDF .

Don't matter...no one, I mean NO ONE is going to tell me how to spend my free time...union or otherwise.

And while you are citing fact, tell me when the last firefighter lost his job because he was a volunteer.

Face it folks, this is a non-issue and we are beating it to a pulp. Nobody is going to win the arguement that someone should not be able to do something he or she wants to do.

Thanks.

[Guest Sqd47]

**************, you are right, my comments would not hold up in court. Good thing we are not in one.

Yes, good thing we are not in a court of law.

We are, however, in the court of public opinion.

I, for one, find your egregious post offensive, and believe you owe the Belltown Fire Department and it's members a public apology for your aspersion.

[Guest Sqd47]

This is what the Belltown Volunteer management requested from the SFRD because they could not guarantee a volunteer response to all calls.

Hi Mike, nice to see you chiming in here.

Is it possible your perception on this might be mistaken or skewed? I thought that Belltown Volunteer management requested a response from SFRD as a part of an automatic mutual aid plan.

Which brings us to the point I want to make. Lots of good people have made good points here. As I have stated before, I have great respect for anyone who makes the commitment to save life and protect property. I think that the memebership at the BFD, from what I see, wants to continue doing so, and want to be able to work together with all our neighboring departments.

The automatic mutual aid system works. Granted, BFD has reduced it's outgoing mutual aid to reports of responding to structure fires or reports of smoke or fire, but that's just dealing with reality. I think the membership has done a good job of living up to their commitment since becoming 100% volunteer, and will continue to do so.

[pjreilly 6]

Joe, I couldn't agree witht you more. No one is telling me what to do in my off time. I do believe that if you were to get hurt volunteering, it would create headaches for everyone, but that should be a topic by itself. No more dead horse beating.

[jcoppola 52]

Joe, I couldn't agree witht you more. No one is telling me what to do in my off time. I do believe that if you were to get hurt volunteering, it would create headaches for everyone, but that should be a topic by itself. No more dead horse beating.

Very true...we probably will continue in this manner because it is fun and it gives us new perspectives. Thats why I like it, although it is hard for me to maintain a objectivity as I am both a dedicated union man as well as a person who had the BFD in my family for so many years and a person who has a large number of friends, both social and professional, in the Stamford Fire Dept.

I constantly maintain the hope that a solution can be arrived at where all parties can peacefully and professionally co-exist. Without naming names, there are far too many people on all sides who have agendas and until they open their minds to all the options, nothing productive will happen, this totally includes the City of Stamford government officials. I am of the opinion, and from the limited knowledge that I have of the whole situation, that it was, in a way, the city government who pitted the career department against their volunteer counterparts using the excuse of money to drive a wedge bertween services. Very sad, they planted the bomb and watched the unfortunate results from a safe "bunker". This very common practice for government officials was also done by the one in my city with a manpower issue and a unfair arbitration award. What they did was quite worse, as they used manpower to essentially divide our local.

Lets all try to get along and see all perspectives with open minds.

JVC

[FFPCogs 863]

Without naming names, there are far too many people on all sides who have agendas and until they open their minds to all the options, nothing productive will happen, this totally includes the City of Stamford government officials.

JVC

Lets all try to get along and see all perspectives with open minds

JVC

Joe

I couldn't agree more.

The parties involved must move past their agendas if there is ever to be a mutually beneficial and productive resolution to this mess. I have steadfastly presented alternatives that through my experience have worked elsewhere, in an attempt to begin that process. That is not to say that I alone have the answers to Stamfords unique situation, but by exploring the ideas presented here by myself and others the process can begin.

Unfortunately any negotiation or should I say re-negotiation in good faith may be impossible now between the parties involved due to all the bad blood. The courts will make their determination, but it will still be incumbent upon the departments there to honor the courts decision and put it into place in a workable fashion. To me it is in everyones, the City of Stamford administration, the SRFD, the BFD and most importantly the residents, for this to be resolved as quickly as possible. This means that all parties have to not only listen to the others proposals, but actually respect and accept them.

Here's an idea, maybe an outside panel of fire service personnel, not bean counters, or politicians but actual firefighters and adminstators should convene to review the plans of both sides. This panel should include retired paid and inactive volunteer personnel from the surronding area with NO connection whatsoever to the parties involved, who can approach this objectively. They could review the plans and concerns forwarded by all involved and help determine the best course of action.

Honestly, it is time for all involved to stop talking and start listening.

Take care

and as alwyas

Stay Safe

Cogs

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Cogs, you cant say you are sure anyone would meet their obligation's to respond without factual data to prove it. Listen, I have been a proud volunteer for almost 20 years, but I am also a realist. I know for a fact that volunteer companies struggle with manpower at times, especially during the day when many active members are at work. Why did Belltown and the other Big 5 houses hire drivers in the first place. To think that places can revert back to the way things use to be is crazy considering call volume has increased 10 times in the last 20 years. Volunteers in the city of Stamford cant afford to man a firehouse 24/7 if they are supporting a family and the off-duty IAFF members are put in a tough spot considering the current climate. I would love to see a amicable solution but it seems very difficult at this time.

[FFPCogs 863]

PJ D.

I must respectfully disagree. It has been my experience that volunteer stations can be staffed 24 /7 by other than simply off duty career firefighters as they are in other jurisdictions. One proven method is to have live-in members drawn from area colleges and universities. Not all students have classes at the same time and schedules for coverage can be worked out for daytime coverage. Also not all volunteers necessarily work days, those on the second or third shift COULD also serve during the day. The 1st shift working volunteers then take the night shifts when they are not working as well as weekends and holidays. Basically volunteers are assigned shifts just as career firefighters are. These shifts range anywhere from 2- 6, 8 to 10 hr shifts per month depending on the available pool of members. This can and does work as evident in Maryland and Virginia. I do know that this system works there because I've personnaly seen it in action. I also was fortunate enough while working in Iraq to be assigned with close to 40 personnel (both career and volunteer) from those States during my time there. This and similar issues were a topic of many converstaions as it really does affect any community in which there is a combination system.

Of course this would require alot of work on the part of the volunteers in terms of recruitment and retention as well as a drastic rethinking of how they operate in Stamford. It would also require a complete re-assessment of alarm responses within the city overall. The fire service in Stamford could in effect become something like a mini version of those countywide departments.

Believe it or not I'm no fool, I do fully realize that we are not living in 1980, and that what I am broadly proposing here would be EXTREMELY difficult at best. But if the BFD and any other VFD there wants to survive and meet their obligations they must move past what has been and look towards what is needed now. The City for it's part must also be willing to assess objectively and respect other possible solutions.

You know, anything I post here is drawn only from my own experiences. It may very well be that this is NOT the answer, but it is one worth at least investigating.

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

[Geppetto 31]

No labor deal causes paid, volunteer firefighter split

(06/30/08) STAMFORD - Not able to work out a labor deal, the city of Stamford will separate paid and volunteer firefighters in the Turn of the River District starting Tuesday.

https://www.news12.com/CT/topstories/article?id=213742

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Cogs,

So what college or university are you going to draw these members from? Usually it is an acredited institution that offers Fire Tech as a curiculm. To the best of my knowledge the only school in the area that offers that is NCC and they dont have out of state students. I know your intentions are well intended as are mine, but may I remind you that about 12 years ago we, in the then Big 5, established a squad unit. It was to be manned by members of every dept 24/7 and respond to all assignments reporting smoke or fire. It was didbanded after about 2 weeks because it could no longer be manned, and that was when the Big 5 was alot stronger than it is today. In my opinion when you start asking members to spend 8 hours a day in the VOLUNTEER house several days a month it stops being a volunteer house and basically becomes a job, and alot of your membership just cant devote that kind of time. Believe me I am all for a managable solution but Im just pointing out some facts.

[jcoppola 52]

Cogs,

So what college or university are you going to draw these members from? Usually it is an acredited institution that offers Fire Tech as a curiculm. To the best of my knowledge the only school in the area that offers that is NCC and they dont have out of state students. I know your intentions are well intended as are mine, but may I remind you that about 12 years ago we, in the then Big 5, established a squad unit. It was to be manned by members of every dept 24/7 and respond to all assignments reporting smoke or fire. It was didbanded after about 2 weeks because it could no longer be manned, and that was when the Big 5 was alot stronger than it is today. In my opinion when you start asking members to spend 8 hours a day in the VOLUNTEER house several days a month it stops being a volunteer house and basically becomes a job, and alot of your membership just cant devote that kind of time. Believe me I am all for a managable solution but Im just pointing out some facts.

PJ -

I can vouch for the 8 hours a day thing several times a month...not too much fun, and I was even paid to do it...Although one of the problems that led to my demise was skewed leadership and warped policies at the top...and no, I don't forget!

[FFPCogs 863]

Believe me I am all for a managable solution but Im just pointing out some facts.

As am I.

In response to your question though. You have Fairfield U., Bridgeport U. and SUNY Purchase to name 3 schools with resident student populations within a reasonable commuting distance of Stamford. I know of 2 volunteer FFs in Virginia who commuted over 1.5 hours to school to take advantage of the $0 board offered by a volunteer station near Alexandria. I also know for a fact that not all students participating in the live- in programs there are enrolled in any fire service related classes. They are there to take advantage of the financial savings offered in return for their time. There are of course other personnel involved as live-ins that don't attend school at all. And yes this system does in some respects become like a "job" for the volunteers involved but it is a commitment they have decided they are willing to make. Whether or not Stamford's volunteers are willing is another matter.

We can go on and on, back and forth as to the validity or practicality of this idea for Stamford. Again it may very well NOT be the solution for whatever reasons. But it just MIGHT be a possible answer as well. That is for the involved parties to decide, I am simply a messenger. I don't have all the answers as I've stated before, but what facts I do have and how those facts have worked elsewhere is all I am posting here.

The fact is that the BFD and now apparently the TORFD as well have chosen to operate as 100% volunteer departments, as is their right under the City charter. Instead of nit-picking what I propose maybe posting alternatives that address that FACT might be more productive. I have no problem defending my proposals by the way, as I believe them to be sound. I just think that the space here could be better utilized to offer possible solutions instead of debating the ideas proposed.

I have attempted to address this issue and offer what I believe to be a viable alternative based on the facts as I understand them.

So let me ask all of you:

Based on the FACT that the BFD and TORFD are or are going to be 100% volunteer stations, what solutions can you offer to ensure that the residents recieve the best possible fire protection under these conditions?

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Cogs,

As far as I can tell the city has taken steps to insure sound fire coverage by moving 2 career units into the North country. I know this is probably viewed as a negative step by many people, but I think it is done with the interest of public safety as the primary concern. Wether or not it will be permanent is anyones quess, but hopefully all parties can co-exist in a peaceful and professional manner. As far as our other debate goes you present some decent ideas, wether or not they are realistic is another story, but thats just my opinion. Only time will tell how this situation will work itself out, but rest assurd it will be worked out one way or another. Lets all just hope cooler heads prevail.

Peace

Paul D.

[FFPCogs 863]

AMEN PJ.

I hope I have not offended you or anyone else, I just put forth what I know. In reality I am doubtful as to whether this type of system could work in Stamford. Again it would require a complete reorganization basically. But from my perspective this is a system that works so long as the volunteers are willing to make the "sacrifices". I also neglected to mention another aspect of this system that I probably should have addressed earlier, my apologies.

That aspect being the incentives or "pay" if you like for the volunteers. These include a LOSAP program and tax breaks. These are areas in which the city, to gain the large saving having volunteers would offer, must acknowledge and provide. Let's face it nobody does anything for nothing anymore. That being said even paying into a LOSAP program and offering tax breaks to volunteers would still bring considerable savings compared to full time career salaries and benefits plus overtime. This is not wishful thinking, it's simple mathmatics.

I too hope that cooler heads prevail and ALL avenues are explored objectively, including SRFD personnel in the VFD houses (although for me with any luck it won't come to that).

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

For those that don't know LOSAP = Length Of Service Awards Program...basically a small pension for volunteers paid out after 20 yrs of service or age 65 which ever comes LAST. Most of the ones I know of pay about $200 a month.

[FFPCogs 863]

Since I made the statement about simple mathmatics, upon reflection I felt I should share those mathmatics with the audience here.

So I'll start with the BFD.

According to the "plan" 4 SRFD career personnel are to be stationed in Belltown. OK so 4 FFs at $50,000 per year = $200,000. No dispute there and this doesn't include benefits and overtime. Ok so that's $200,000 that would be spent in Belltown alone.

Now let's look at a LOSAP program that pays $200 a month per year per member.

$200 x 12 months = $2,400 per year per member. So $200,000 divided by $2400 = 83. In other words that same $200,000 that would pay 4 FFs salaries would fund LOSAP payments for 83 firefighters.

Now let's look at a situation somewhat more grounded in reality. Belltown doesn't have 83 active members. I'll be generous and say there are 40. Ok so 40 members each getting $2,400 per year = $96,000. $200,000 minus $96,000 = $104,000. So there in black and white is a savings of $104,000 per year in Belltown alone. Numbers don't lie. And in all honesty not all current members would be eligible for their LOSAP payments immediately which would lead to further savings.

Those live-ins college students I constantly mention would not be involved in the program unless they remain members after their schooling is complete. Their "payment" is a free roof over their heads while attending school.

As for shifts again using a base of 40 members. 40 members divided into 4 person crews = 10 crews. 365 days divided by 10 crews = 36.5 shifts a year. Or 36.5 shifts divided by 12 months = 3.4 shifts per month, or basically 1 shift every 10 days. Difficult -yes, impossible-no.

This all changes exponentially of course as you add additional stations and members. But 7 volunteer stations staffed by 4 firefighters each = 28 firefighters per shift.

So here's a bit more math. 28 FFs at $50,000 per year = $1,400,000. Let's see how many firefighter LOSAP payments that is.

$1,400,000 divided by $2400 per year per member would fund 583 LOSAP payments per year. That's alot of FFs.

If money saving is the goal here than I see an awful lot of savings here by the numbers. Of course there is alot more here than simply dollars, and again it is the volunteers who would have to be willing adopt the shift system. And the City would have to be willing to fund the program, but again from their statements this is about money so...

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs