When Will We Learn?: Water Rescue

[Guest LAGRANGEFF40]

I was wondering when will we learn to use the proper equipment while we are doing special ops rescues. In this article from firehouse.com D.C. fire dept performs a water rescue using ice rescue suits in the Potomac river. the word river give me a good hint that this is moving water.

I spoke about this in a post from last april and commented about the difference from ice rescue to swift/moving water rescues

what is your comments on this issue

http://cms.firehouse.com/web/online/Photo-...e/45$58705

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I don't know, the Potomac River in March must be pretty cold, so "Gumby Suits" are somewhat justified. I totally understand where you're coming from, having taken a swiftwater rescue class, one of the first things they taught us was proper PPE. Specifically, Gumby suits are NOT for swiftwater applications. But I would think that you would have to consider what is the most critical hazard. The Potomac is not a shallow swiftwater environment where river hazards are a particularly prevalent isue, and backup was available (IE: the marine unit on the water.) The cold water, however, posed a serious threat to the life safety of the rescuers and the victim. The "reach" and "throw" methods obviously should have been tried prior to the "go" method, but for all we know they could have been. Anyone else with swift/cold water experience/training have any opinions?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

The attitude isn't nessecary. Big departments make mistakes too, not just small volunteer units.

[JetPhoto 626]

Just this past Sunday, March 9th, the Fairview FD (Dutchess) responded to a girl and a dog in the Hudson river. the girl was out when they go to the scene but the dog was in a remote section along the river next to a high embankment. The FF's donned the gumby suits and with the verbal assistance of a animal control officer walked into the river and got the dog and brought him to safety. Now the area they were in was shallow, knee high (looking at the pictures in the Poughkeepsie Journal) and the water was not rough.

This is just a rare example of using the suits in a river, otherwise no they don't go in the river.

See story and link for the photos here:

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pb...D=2008803090363

[Guest]

Every Department paid or vollie have a different ways of operating.

I find alot of threds here from guys who think because their Department operates in a certain way that everyone else is suppose to abide by that. They then go into what becomes a bash of that Department and it goes further to a bash between Paid and vollie. Its silly and not productive.

Just looking at pictures does not make anyone an expert.

Let everyone operate the way they want and be done with it.

[firemoose827 324]

What you realy have to look at here is that training is only the first step in a succesfull rescue. Everyone receives the basic training in whatever category; Swift Water, Ice, Collapse, Trench, etc. But, than you have to go back to your response area and use this knowledge to see what hazzards you as a rescuer would face and make some adjustments.

These firefighters from DC are, without a doubt in my mind, extremely knowledgeable about their response area and what hazzards they would need to focus on as rescue technicians. As clipper has stated in his post, these firefighters know their jobs and made the decision based on the knowledge they have of their response areas and the hazzards they present. Just because it is written in a textbook doesnt mean it is "The Law" and has to be done only that way. Adapt, overcome, adjust, use the training as a "Basis" to go on, than build experience and continue to adapt. Thats realy what we should be learning from this topic.

[x134 46]

Just this past Sunday, March 9th, the Fairview FD (Dutchess) responded to a girl and a dog in the Hudson river. the girl was out when they go to the scene but the dog was in a remote section along the river next to a high embankment. The FF's donned the gumby suits and with the verbal assistance of a animal control officer walked into the river and got the dog and brought him to safety. Now the area they were in was shallow, knee high (looking at the pictures in the Poughkeepsie Journal) and the water was not rough.

This is just a rare example of using the suits in a river, otherwise no they don't go in the river.

See story and link for the photos here:

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pb...D=2008803090363

That Chad Clouting always makes the paper weather he is in the City or Fairview. Hey Brothers in Fairview call him Froggy he loves that. LOL

[firemoose827 324]

Every Department paid or vollie have a different ways of operating.

I find alot of threds here from guys who think because their Department operates in a certain way that everyone else is suppose to abide by that. They then go into what becomes a bash of that Department and it goes further to a bash between Paid and vollie. Its silly and not productive.

Just looking at pictures does not make anyone an expert.

Let everyone operate the way they want and be done with it.

Well put onthejob, thats exactly what I tried to say in so many more words!! Each dept has a way, that way works for them, they train in that way, so let it be. If anything, we should all try and learn from the different techniques that different depts employ from all over.

[DOC22 1]

Every Department paid or vollie have a different ways of operating.

I find alot of threds here from guys who think because their Department operates in a certain way that everyone else is suppose to abide by that. They then go into what becomes a bash of that Department and it goes further to a bash between Paid and vollie. Its silly and not productive.

Just looking at pictures does not make anyone an expert.

Let everyone operate the way they want and be done with it.

Well said, fdonthejob!!! I couldn't have said it better, myself!!!!!

[texastom791 31]

In the pictures it does look like it's pretty cold so the suits were probablly a good idea.

[Guest LAGRANGEFF40]

Once again when you try to bring up an open topic for comments it turns into paid vs vollie. The famous attitude problem or the big city vs the small town issue. This was a topic for discussion in no shape or form did the start of this post go any where near what was discussed in its responces. SageVigiles had the only comment that actually pertained to this topic at all. Once again emtbravo asks for good topics to discuss at no time was there bashing of any sort in the first post. Ther is many large and small dept out there with good trained firefighters just because were talking about D.C. fire, F.D.N.Y,L.A. or a small back woods dept does not mean everyones dept is trained to the fullest . We all know that most dept in the u.s. have a lack of training do to budget cuts manpower or equipment cost . ALL I WANTED TO DO IS HAVE DISCUSSION ABOUT USING THE RIGHT TOOL/EQUIPMENT FOR THE JOB .

[ny10570 745]

I don't care if its FDNY, DCFD, or Podunk FD any time you do something you should critique it. In the same light, talking about and critiquing any depts operations for the purpose of learning is an excellent idea. Would this discussion be more appropriate if we had no idea which dept this was? Half the defense is that its DC so they must know what they're doing. FDNY and I'm sure every other fire dept out there has a massive operations manual based mostly on people doing stupid things. Most LODI reports start with several simple small mistakes combined with an unusual event to create a the tragedy. With that being said, while dry suits would definitely have been the preferred equipment the Potomac is not the swift water environment that the gumby suits become dangerous in. Maybe this is an issue of available equipment, these guys only having the ice rescue suits available to them.

[OLDGUY19 6]

I know were I work they have fazed out the gumpy suits. And switch over to the more flexable Mustang suits.Question for the day. when is best to go training for cold water ie: the fall /early winter/winter what Does your Dept prefer.

[firemoose827 324]

Once again when you try to bring up an open topic for comments it turns into paid vs vollie. The famous attitude problem or the big city vs the small town issue. This was a topic for discussion in no shape or form did the start of this post go any where near what was discussed in its responces. SageVigiles had the only comment that actually pertained to this topic at all. Once again emtbravo asks for good topics to discuss at no time was there bashing of any sort in the first post. Ther is many large and small dept out there with good trained firefighters just because were talking about D.C. fire, F.D.N.Y,L.A. or a small back woods dept does not mean everyones dept is trained to the fullest . We all know that most dept in the u.s. have a lack of training do to budget cuts manpower or equipment cost . ALL I WANTED TO DO IS HAVE DISCUSSION ABOUT USING THE RIGHT TOOL/EQUIPMENT FOR THE JOB .

In my post I was directing my line of thought to "Think Outside The Box"...Meaning, what you learn in class isnt the last line of training, you must than take that training to your response area and weigh the hazards with the pros and cons of your area and make an informed decision to carry out the rescue. Thus, by using the "Gumby" suits to protect against cold water was a good decision made by firefighters who respond to this river daily for rescues....simple.

Moose

[Guest LAGRANGEFF40]

When i started this post i was hoping it was going to become a educational piece. I am very educated in the difference between ice/cold (still) water rescues to swift water rescues. There are many dangers in using ice rescue suits in moving water and yes there is a current in the potomac river . There are 2 suits to use for swift water a dry and a wet suit depending on temp of the water. Ice rescue suits become a danger when water starts to fill the suit due to no neck seal. If all you have is a ice rescue suit to perform a rescue in moving water you should don a class V PFD with a escape device and be tethered to a life safety rope. In last april's post I encouraged all to take the swift water class thats held in many location by OFPC and the instructors are great. There is great info if you google swift water training. I hope this is a help so we don't lose a brother or sister from using the wrong equipment .

http://www.swiftwater-rescue.com/

http://www.rescue3.com/

http://www.americanrescue.net/

[Bnechis 3,961]

When i started this post i was hoping it was going to become a educational piece. I am very educated in the difference between ice/cold (still) water rescues to swift water rescues. There are many dangers in using ice rescue suits in moving water and yes there is a current in the potomac river . There are 2 suits to use for swift water a dry and a wet suit depending on temp of the water. Ice rescue suits become a danger when water starts to fill the suit due to no neck seal. If all you have is a ice rescue suit to perform a rescue in moving water you should don a class V PFD with a escape device and be tethered to a life safety rope. In last april's post I encouraged all to take the swift water class thats held in many location by OFPC and the instructors are great. There is great info if you google swift water training. I hope this is a help so we don't lose a brother or sister from using the wrong equipment .

I have some issues with how this thread has defined or not defined "swift water"

After years of coastal and blue water (ocean) sailing as well as water rescue training I would not consider the Hudson River, The Potomic River, Long Island Sound or the Atlantic Ocean to be "swift water". Do they have areas that move swiftly...yes (and its fun going thru Hell Gate on the East River in NYC which I've done in a "gumby suit with NYPD Harbor and SCUBA Units or doing inwater patient packaging at Cape Disapointment).

The Hudson River's spead is measured in Knots and in the lower section changes direction every 6 hours with the tide change. Swift water is measured by calculating in feet per second or in cubic feet per second.

If the USCG with a gumby suit can jump into 6-8 knots at Woods Hole or cape disapointment or any Ocean then a trained rescuer can go into the (icy) hudson river when its doing 3 knots.

True "swift water" i.e. rapids will get you killed in a gumby or ice rescue suit.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

LaGrange and Barry...good posts as always.

The one thing I can say about DCFD is that they do have some awesomally talented people who are often under appreciated and severely under equipped, while it has certainly gotten better since the mid and late 90's which the fire at the treasury building showed the world exactly what happens when you have an inept mayor who is replaced by a former mayor who was a crackhead. This was a simple discussion...not a bash on DCFD. They were probably operating with what they had available at the time or simply what they may only have available period. I still have several friends who work there and for DCPD who I vollied with when I lived down there and they even say things are much much better now. No more chipping in for tires or having to bring in their own toilet paper.

[Bnechis 3,961]

what happens when you have an inept mayor who is replaced by a former mayor who was a crackhead.

DC has one additional problem, that is beyond the rest of us...........

Most city's budgets must be approved by a city council...........but, DC's actually has to be approved by Congress, and last I heard the majority of the committee do not live in the district and dont get elected by the district, so "saving $$$" looks good to the voters that they answer to.