Was: Pelham FD Staffing? Now: Regionalization/Staffing and More

[Guest]

I have been a volunteer for 15 years. I do it because I love to do it. I dont expect anything out of it from anyone. I enjoy helping my community and my family. I belong to a combo dept, and when I first started years and years ago, I was caught up n the bashing of "paid and volly". Since I have grown up and made a family, I think it is silly the way we "bash" fellow fireman be it paid or volunteer. I respect everyone for what they do. However there are bad apples in paid and volly. I am an interior ff and have trained as such. I have trained along side of carreer fireman and volunteers. We are all here to do the same job. What people need to realize is that the times are changing from 30-40 years ago when the average household both parents have to work and there is no time to volunteer. We need more carreer stafff no matter where you go, but we also need the volunteers. I dont think this topic was a paid or volly thing, it was a topic between 2 carreer depts and should have been left that way.

I also feel that Jflynn is looking out for his dept as well as he should. Chielf it sounds like you have a very good working knowledge of the system in your area, and I respect you for putting your opinion on here as some would take it the wrong way. Which they have. Knowledge from anyone is great, what people need to understand is that a volunteer can only see so much or train so much bc just that, they are volunteer. A carreer person will see things on a reg basis due to a "work" scheduale.

[FirNaTine 370]

Is Consolidation/Regionalization really the answer for Depts.? Maybe for some, and then maybe some Depts. like FDMV should push to increase the number of ffs. on the City Charter from 143 to whatever the number would be to comply with 1710. Their own Union President stated this not too long ago. It's been at that number for quite a few yrs. now. Maybe things will change for the Vern after the audit comes out and all the wastefull spending is revealed, that could have been spent on F/P. Christ, to this day MT.Vernon still has 3 guys on a garbage truck and 2 on a fire truck. Is there something wrong with that picture? Maybe Pace University should be doing a study on all this type of wastefull spending. There's a reason the Feds are involved. Personally I feel Consolidation/Regionalization should be the last resort and not looked at as the cure all for providing adequate F/P, until all other means for providing such are exhausted by each municipality. Just because one municipality can't afford it, or so their city officials say they can't, whose word were taking as gospel, doesn't mean their neighbors can't. It's ironic also how MVPD has an astronomical budget, that surpasses by far the FD budget and nothing is said. No problems finding the revenue for the PD. MVPD even increased their staffing by what 30 guys. When it comes to the FD though they blame the tax base and lack of state aid per capita for the cutbacks. Give me a break! I'm with Chief Flynn on this one. Maybe if we All and I mean ALL make some noise, will finally be heard, instead of having the good old boy attitude and chasing the smoke to play in the sandbox with our friends. Then again that would mean we couldn't get together after the Big One to join in libations and compare war stories.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Is Consolidation/Regionalization really the answer for Depts.? Maybe for some, and then maybe some Depts. like FDMV should push to increase the number of ffs. on the City Charter from 143 to whatever the number would be to comply with 1710.

Good Luck. If its in the City Charter you will need to go thru a Charter Review, which includes a public referendum. Do you have the public support to even get charter review? Does the public even care? Would the public percieve this as a major tax increase to fund the FD?

Their own Union President stated this not too long ago. It's been at that number for quite a few yrs. now. Maybe things will change for the Vern after the audit comes out and all the wastefull spending is revealed, that could have been spent on F/P.

Dont hold your breath. Nothing has changed in decades. Lets go back 4 or 5 mayors. In the early 1980's I made a complaint that my Amb. (MV Amb #1) got stuck in a snow drift with a 2 y/o child in respitory arrest and needed a plow ASAP to get us out. None was available. But one was sitting on standby in front of the Mayors house 24/7 in case he needed to be rushed to the command post in an emergency. How about the fact that every mayor going back 30 yrs gets a 3 man security team?

Christ, to this day MT.Vernon still has 3 guys on a garbage truck and 2 on a fire truck. Is there something wrong with that picture? Maybe Pace University should be doing a study on all this type of wastefull spending. There's a reason the Feds are involved.

Yes there is something wrong with it, but the public demands service and if they don't believe they will have a fire, but every week they throw out garbage, which one becomes the priority?

Maybe Pace should, but who will pay for it? The state gave the chiefs a grant to pay for this study, because the state believes that this is the way to solve the issue.

The Feds are involved because Fed $$$ (HUD Section 8) appears to be missing. They could care less about waste and how any other money is used.

Personally I feel Consolidation/Regionalization should be the last resort and not looked at as the cure all for providing adequate F/P, until all other means for providing such are exhausted by each municipality. Just because one municipality can't afford it, or so their city officials say they can't, whose word were taking as gospel, doesn't mean their neighbors can't.

Please define last resort? Everyone has been complaining about MVFD manning (both the members of the dept and MA depts) for over 30 years that I'm aware of.

Since every career and combo dept (both in the study and not) are making the same complaint for as long as I can remember, it may not be gospel, but it is reality. Which depts in Westchester have increased manning in the last 20 years?

It's ironic also how MVPD has an astronomical budget, that surpasses by far the FD budget and nothing is said. No problems finding the revenue for the PD. MVPD even increased their staffing by what 30 guys. When it comes to the FD though they blame the tax base and lack of state aid per capita for the cutbacks.

How many fire deaths does MV have annually? How many shootings and homicides? The public does not see fire as a threat, but they are scared to death of crime.

That budget difference is the norm nationally. Is it right? Dont know, but it is reality.

How many FFsin MV or anywhere are n the Federal Dime?

Berfore SAFER there where none. At the same time there where over 110 fully paid cops in Westchester alone (mostly housing cops and the COPS program). Now with SAFER, there are 12 partially (20%) Federally funded positions in NYS.

When the Northeast Chiefs, Westchester career chiefs and the Task Force asked for 100 Federaly funded task forces, which would have provided 110 additional paid ff's in Westchester (with 12 going to MV). Where was the union? The IAFF was against this proposal and killed it.

If the local union wont fight for 12 additional positions at no cost to local tax payers what makes you think they will fight and win for solving your manning without outside help.

[helicopper 1,050]

How is that hypocrisy that Volunteers get some benefits? Sounds like you dont like this idea because it is helping retain the Volunteers and keep the Voulunteer system alive and well in many many places.

To many the fact that a "volunteer" is receiving benefits (tax breaks/incentives/pension/etc.) contradicts the notion that they are in fact a volunteer and that the system is "all volunteer". I know the IRS considers many of these things income so the argument has some merit.

Arguing that volunteers "deserve" these things in order to continue volunteering diminishes the long history of distinguished community service that the volunteer community has enjoyed for centuries. As was pointed out in another thread, the "what's in it for me" approach has hurt the volunteer community.

[emt301 4]

Again a statement is made which cannot be backed up. I have stated what Yonkers mutual aid policy is and I can back this up. You stated that we left New Rochelle "prematurely"...define prematurely and give a specific incident please. A statement was made that Yonkers apparatus drove past a fire on their way out of New Rochelle...this is slander as far as I am concerned...if it is true give a date and the apparatus involved...

First, with all due respect to your rank as a chief, I don't like your implications that I don't know what I'm talking about here. I'm sorry, but no - I don't remember the exact location, date, time, and units from the fire from 3 or 4 years ago...I've dispatched many, many, many calls since then - both in Westchester and in Dutchess where I now work. As I no longer have access to 60-control's data base, no, I can't give you those stats. However, I was working at 60 when Yonkers pulled their units from standby coverage in New Rochelle (again, I'm not sure if it was the Bonnefoy PL fire or not). I remember the incident because I was so surprised by YFD's decision to pull out. This is not "slander", it's what happened during the particular incident that I'm recalling. Apparently YFD's procedures that are NOW in place weren't followed that day. That's all I was saying. I didn't personally attack you or YFD, there was no "slander" spoken or implied.

Second, what I mean by "prematurely" is that 60 control/NRFD didn't decide to release YFD - YFD advised 60 & NRFD that YFD units were returning to quarters. Normally mutual aid is released by the department running the fire, not by mutual aid departments assigned to covering stations. If you recall, in one of your posts you state that YFD REFUSES to sit in a firehouse for more than 30 minutes if that department hasn't started a recall. Kind of a bold policy...I've just never seen a mutual aid/covering department decide that they're going to leave before being relieved by the department actually running the fire scene.

Edited March 14, 2008 by emt301

[helicopper 1,050]

1eye...I did answer your questions. Many Fire Depts , after 911, faced many deep budget cuts. If thats not being underappricated, I dont know what is. There is federral money being thrown around left and right, yet cities are cutting their Fire Depts to the bone. As for the pd or as you call it le, there is no secret that they get alot more federal money than the FD's. As for pd or le branching out, that only seems to be in the nyc area. One area where there is lots of federal money to be had is haz mat. The pd or le in nyc took that away from the fd and its all about the bucks.

As for the lowering of standards in civil service, damn man, pick up a paper once in a while and read whats going on.

So...hopefully that will answer your questions and Im sure I will get a few more PM's from the moderators, but I can clearly see that you asked for this.

I really think you mis read me , I have nothing but deep love, respect and pride in being a Fireman. I dont have a clue what could make you think I didnt.

What fire departments are you referring to? I'm not aware of any being "cut to the bone" any more than any other municipal department (not just emergency services but all of them). All over the place people are being asked to do more with less but that's not a lack of appreciation, it's a budget problem. The elected officials are trying to hold the line on municipal budgets (this clearly does not apply to school districts) so we're forced to live within a budget - how's that unappreciated? The economy tanked after 9/11 and all local governments took a hit; I don't consider that a lack of appreciation of the emergency services.

There are federal grants out there for many purposes - it's not all for the PD or LE. There have been several threads in this forum about local FD's getting grants for a variety of things. Don't blame the PD (or law enforcement in general) for what happened to haz-mat in NYC. That was a decision by the MAYOR! Blame him!

The NYPD is receiving millions of dollars for terrorism prevention - that is putting more cops in more places to deter and/or prevent terrorism. Isn't that an appropriate use of the funding? Who else besides law enforcement is tasked with preventing crime/terrorism?

[helicopper 1,050]

You're right, the thread has changed from the initial inquiry into a much more comprehensive discussion about FD staffing, regionalization, and other related issues. It has, for the most part, been a very informative discussion. However, with any exchange of ideas there is going to be a difference of opinion and a great deal of emotion. In the interest of keeping this thread going, please take a deep breath before you post, try to appreciate the other person's point of view, and keep it objective. Personal attacks or jabs and agency bashing are violations of forum rules! Discussions about the staffing or policies of a department are not necessarily bashing.

Sometimes when a thread changes subject it is easy to split into two subjects but this one has sort of evolved from one subject to another making that difficult.

Chris

[firemoose827 324]

it looks more like a paid vs vollie issue.

Why does everyone [/b](vollys) think the paid guys are always bashing them. This topic was about the 3 paid Pelham brothers pulling up to a taxpayer job and needing tons of mutual aid. If you want to start a paid vs volley bash start another thread.

Did you read the very first post in the thread?? Here, allow me to post it for you again to clarify for you EXACTLY who made it a "Career Vs. Vollunteer" thing.

How many men does Pelham have on staff during a tour?

Just wondering what the Career vs. Vol. ratio was at this last fire? By the amount of mutual aid that was sent and the number of men those departments send on each rig it almost seems like maybe the vol. manpower was not there?

My point is, with mutual aid, What difference does it make who responds? Everyone in NYS receives the same training in Firefighter I, the only difference is one guy gets paid and one doesnt, so who cares how many "Volunteers Vs. Career Staffing" were on scene? I spoke to one of our members through PM and he was very nice and explained his point of view, and I understand where he is coming from now and I appreciate him taking the time to explain it to me, Professionally. What is happening here in this thread is very UN-Professional in my opinion. I have noticed that when Legitimate Questions have been asked, and a person cant answer those questions they immediately use the excuse "Dont turn this into a 'Paid Vs. Volly' thing". If you cant answer a question, be a man and say you dont know the answer, dont try and make the rest of us look like fools.

The original topic clearly stated that the person wanted to know how many career firefighters were on scene as opposed to volunteer firefighters...if you have an issue than take it up with the original poster.

Thanks all.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

1eye...I did answer your questions. Many Fire Depts , after 911, faced many deep budget cuts. If thats not being underappricated, I dont know what is. There is federral money being thrown around left and right, yet cities are cutting their Fire Depts to the bone. As for the pd or as you call it le, there is no secret that they get alot more federal money than the FD's. As for pd or le branching out, that only seems to be in the nyc area. One area where there is lots of federal money to be had is haz mat. The pd or le in nyc took that away from the fd and its all about the bucks.

As for the lowering of standards in civil service, damn man, pick up a paper once in a while and read whats going on.

So...hopefully that will answer your questions and Im sure I will get a few more PM's from the moderators, but I can clearly see that you asked for this.

I really think you mis read me , I have nothing but deep love, respect and pride in being a Fireman. I dont have a clue what could make you think I didnt.

You gotta be kidding! FD and PD are getting all the grant money! What has EMS or the hospitals gotten? EMS remains the you know what stepchild and gets zilch! How's that for unappreciated!

[ladder55 26]

i know speaking for myself i have never once asked for any tax break, pension, or any other incentive. i do it because i enjoy doing it. BUT if they offer it to me im not gonna say no.

[lad12derff 283]

Did you read the very first post in the thread?? Here, allow me to post it for you again to clarify for you EXACTLY who made it a "Career Vs. Vollunteer" thing. Next time, do some homework before you make accusations and keep the discussions clean and professional.

Yes I did read the quote and as for my homework I ask that you read my screen name. Being you are from upstate I will clarify. I worked for 6 years on 2 truck before being promoted. I spent countless hours crawling down hallways in cities and towns that didn't sign my paycheck. I have a tremendous amount of fire experience by todays standards. We have been used and abused by other depts. As for the topic it was more about the manning level per tour. As we know we can't count on vollys because they may not showe. So please don't attack me until you have walked in my shoes!!

[ladder55 26]

if you couldnt count on volunteers then we wouldnt be around. i dont hear about building burning down because it was a volly dept. i dont hear about a volly passing away at every fire because we are under trained. we must be doing something right. and if our village or town offers us an incentive then oh well i think we deserve it. im on duty 24/7 in my dept. not on a shift. we get called for mutual aid just like everyone else and that includes to careeer dept. if noone could rely on us that would have stopped.

[SgtGumby311 0]

Here's a hypothetical question: Your in a fully involved structure fire, both paid and vollie's on scene, you suffer an injury inside and need to be pulled out, would you ask to see a W-2 from the FF who just saved you?...

[Bnechis 3,961]

Everyone in NYS receives the same training in Firefighter I, the only difference is one guy gets paid and one doesnt, so who cares how many "Volunteers Vs. Career Staffing" were on scene?

Have you taken the career fire acadamy?

I was trained as a vol, retrained as a career and have been an instructor for a long time and The training is not the same for a lot of reasons. Which would desurve its own thread.

There is a lot more too it than a paycheck or not. It should not be that way but it has been for atleast 30 years and with major changes a few years back it improved but still has miles to go.

[Remember585 815]

Here's a hypothetical question: Your in a fully involved structure fire, both paid and vollie's on scene, you suffer an injury inside and need to be pulled out, would you ask to see a W-2 from the FF who just saved you?...

Why would anyone be in a fully involved structure fire?

I get the point of what you are trying to say, and the answer for me is, NO! As long as that crew coming in for me is trained, competent and somewhat experienced then I don't care if they are career or volunteer.

To all - I have not read any of the posts in this topic as a paid vs. volunteer nor a PD vs. FD issue. Perhaps it's based on each person's own level of open-mindedness, but that's not how I've read this whatsoever. Good points and information has been mentioned here regarding the never-ending saga of manpower (the lack of) that is a constant hot-button issue and needs to be addressed YESTERDAY. I don't know how you guys do it with the number of guys you bring on an initial alarm, but my hat's off to you. If there is anything those of us not affiliated with you guys can do to help get you the manpower you need and deserve, please tell me (and everyone else) how.

Moose - what volunteers receive now as a minimum is 78 hours. Prior to that it was 39 hours in Essentials. Career personnel receive, if I recall correctly, around 300 hours of training, plus annual in-service. Sure, a decent amount of volunteers go beyond the minimum, but until our minimum training is the same as the career side, how can they view us as equals? With the exception of the codes training in the Probie school, we as vols should strive to get the same training they do.

Edited March 14, 2008 by Remember585

[efd184 59]

Did you read the very first post in the thread?? Here, allow me to post it for you again to clarify for you EXACTLY who made it a "Career Vs. Vollunteer" thing. Next time, do some homework before you make accusations and keep the discussions clean and professional.

My point is, with mutual aid, What difference does it make who responds? Everyone in NYS receives the same training in Firefighter I, the only difference is one guy gets paid and one doesnt, so who cares how many "Volunteers Vs. Career Staffing" were on scene? I spoke to one of our members through PM and he was very nice and explained his point of view, and I understand where he is coming from now and I appreciate him taking the time to explain it to me, Professionally. What is happening here in this thread is very UN-Professional in my opinion. I have noticed that when Legitimate Questions have been asked, and a person cant answer those questions they immediately use the excuse "Dont turn this into a 'Paid Vs. Volly' thing". If you cant answer a question, be a man and say you dont know the answer, dont try and make the rest of us look like fools.

The original topic clearly stated that the person wanted to know how many career firefighters were on scene as opposed to volunteer firefighters...if you have an issue than take it up with the original poster.

Thanks all.

My original post did ask the Career staffing of Pelham and was clearly answered. As for the why i asked the Career to Vol ratio was to get an idea of why there were SO many mutual aid rigs at the scene from Career departments. Was there and issue with the Vol response? is this a ongoing issue like most Vol departments are having with response during the day? Are they short on members? If it is why are there only 3 men working? I dont think that was in any way bashing the Vols just more about a concern for the Career staff in that area. Does my PRO CAREER views offend anyone? If so to bad get over it! As for the "Everyone receives the same training in firefighter 1 the only difference is one guy gets paid" this is far from true! We as professionals to receive FF1 but also way more then that 1 class to be Career ff's and we also do a good amount of in house training during our tour. Actually the probie class right now i think is at 17 weeks of class.

Domenick

Edited March 14, 2008 by efd184

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

1eye...I did answer your questions. Many Fire Depts , after 911, faced many deep budget cuts. If thats not being underappricated, I dont know what is. There is federral money being thrown around left and right, yet cities are cutting their Fire Depts to the bone. As for the pd or as you call it le, there is no secret that they get alot more federal money than the FD's. As for pd or le branching out, that only seems to be in the nyc area. One area where there is lots of federal money to be had is haz mat. The pd or le in nyc took that away from the fd and its all about the bucks.

As for the lowering of standards in civil service, damn man, pick up a paper once in a while and read whats going on.

So...hopefully that will answer your questions and Im sure I will get a few more PM's from the moderators, but I can clearly see that you asked for this.

I really think you mis read me , I have nothing but deep love, respect and pride in being a Fireman. I dont have a clue what could make you think I didnt.

I am a little confused. Your Dept had a budget before 9/11/01 right? Then after that horrible day your budget was decreased? It didn't at least stay the same? I don't know what other PD's do but I know that we have people that write letters for grant money. We are not a large Dept and we don't look to take what we don't need, but the Federal Gov't wants to give that money away to fight the WAR ON TERROR. Who better to get that money than all involved in LE? So you say that the branching out is in the NYC area that doesn't mean all PD's are taking away from FD resonsibilities. So FD should be taking care of all the HAZ MAT stuff? That means send some of your men/woman to TERRORISM classes. There is no doubt in my mind that the next attack on any place in this COUNTRY is going to be a Chemical Attack. Who is going to get there first? Heck, everyone should be trained in this.

I read the paper everyday. Is there something specific I should be reading? It doesn't really say that Civil Service is forced to hire unqualified personell. Unless I'm not reading the correct section.

I didn't mis read you at all. As a matter of fact I can see exactly where you are coming from. I have great respect and pride in being a Policeman, but I also have great respect for FIREMAN and EMS workers as well. Well at least most.

You gotta be kidding! FD and PD are getting all the grant money! What has EMS or the hospitals gotten? EMS remains the you know what stepchild and gets zilch! How's that for unappreciated!

This post should have been a couple of threads ago. Like I stated above. Federal Money is out there. It isn't a secret you just need to know how to get it for your Agency.

[JFLYNN 681]

My original post did ask the Career staffing of Pelham and was clearly answered. As for the why i asked the Career to Vol ratio was to get an idea of why there were SO many mutual aid rigs at the scene from Career departments. Was there and issue with the Vol response? is this a ongoing issue like most Vol departments are having with response during the day? Are they short on members? If it is why are there only 3 men working? I dont think that was in any way bashing the Vols just more about a concern for the Career staff in that area. Does my PRO CAREER views offend anyone? If so to bad get over it! As for the "Everyone receives the same training in firefighter 1 the only difference is one guy gets paid" this is far from true! We as professionals to receive FF1 but also way more then that 1 class to be Career ff's and we also do a good amount of in house training during our tour. Actually the probie class right now i think is at 17 weeks of class.

Domenick

Domenick, it was clear to me why you asked the question in your original post and it was a very good question, which is why I got involved here. It was of course, very predictable which direction this thread would go. For me, after 20 years in the Fire Service, I could almost have scripted all the replys and back and forth. (Except the part about PD- how the heck did that get brought into it?)

I think we should all ask ourselves this question: Am I taking all this too personally? Try to look at this(these) issues objectively and not through the prism of just your own town/ village/ city, and ask yourself what is really best for the public we are sworn to protect. Stop being hypocritical and patting yourselves on the back all the time (some of you). Look in the mirror before you point your finger. There was / is obviously a problem in Pelham. A routine fire. It is supposed to be a combination department. The career guys on duty, all 3 of them, I think, are supposed to drive the apparatus to the scene and operate the apparatus and then the volunteers provide the manpower. If the system works as advertised, why did so many outside departments need to respond? If the system doesn't work, why aren't the "leaders" (chiefs and union) not loudly complaining about it??? To me, it is their moral obligation to do so. People like Bnechis, a very knowledgeable and hardworking individual, just do not get it. He continues to explain away and excuse WHY the municipalities can't afford adequate fire protection. It is not your job to do that and what you say about how much taxes will have to be raised, etc. simply is not true. Maybe the FD needs to be given a higher priority and other things can be cut. Maybe other revenue sources can be identified. There are many factors at work here. I actually believe the regionalization plan being discussed could work here in Westchester... the problem is, it never will unless bold steps are taken, such as the things Yonkers has done over the years, and thus the reason since I came on almost exactly 20 years ago that we have increased our manpower and resources significantly, and virtually no other department in Westchester has...There were many naysayers in the years here in Yonkers (our own guys and chiefs) telling us to just be happy with what we had, the city was broke, blah, blah, but many of us pushed forward and made the case for what we needed, and 20 years later- a fully manned and trained heavy rescue where there was none, a thriving special ops and training divisions where there was little or none, a Battalion 2 aide where there was none, minimum manning clause, adequate spare and reserve apparatus, and more. And why was it so important to accomplish all this? To feed our own egos or fill our pockets- nope, although it is nice to make a decent living and to feel pride in your department...the real reason for all of us to push to obtain the tools we need to do our jobs is because we have a moral obligation to the public we are sworn to protect.

If you make this argument convincingly enough, with some courage and tenacity, who can stop you?

[firemoose827 324]

My original post did ask the Career staffing of Pelham and was clearly answered. As for the why i asked the Career to Vol ratio was to get an idea of why there were SO many mutual aid rigs at the scene from Career departments. Was there and issue with the Vol response? is this a ongoing issue like most Vol departments are having with response during the day? Are they short on members? If it is why are there only 3 men working? I dont think that was in any way bashing the Vols just more about a concern for the Career staff in that area. Does my PRO CAREER views offend anyone? If so to bad get over it! As for the "Everyone receives the same training in firefighter 1 the only difference is one guy gets paid" this is far from true! We as professionals to receive FF1 but also way more then that 1 class to be Career ff's and we also do a good amount of in house training during our tour. Actually the probie class right now i think is at 17 weeks of class.

Domenick

To you, and remember585, I realise that and respect that. I as a volunteer have well over that 300 hours of training and continue to look for more every chance I get. I understand the need for the same level of training to back you up in a fire situation, but not all volunteers are as you make them out to be.

Like me, I am a firefighter II, I have taken this class, and others atleast 3 times each now in my career and will refresh them again as soon as I get some time. I took numerous other courses to back that up, and not just to say I took them either, I had to pass a test to get my certificate and I learned from every class I take.

I respect all of you who report to work everyday and train hard everyday, I wish I could be in your shoes but not all of us are lucky enough to call ourselves "career" firefighters, BUT, does that make some of us any less "Professional"? That is all Im trying to say, dont include "ALL" of the volunteers when you talk about us in that way. There are bad apples everywhere you go, including career departments.

I respect ALL of you...which is my point.

[JFLYNN 681]

First, with all due respect to your rank as a chief, I don't like your implications that I don't know what I'm talking about here. I'm sorry, but no - I don't remember the exact location, date, time, and units from the fire from 3 or 4 years ago...I've dispatched many, many, many calls since then - both in Westchester and in Dutchess where I now work. As I no longer have access to 60-control's data base, no, I can't give you those stats. However, I was working at 60 when Yonkers pulled their units from standby coverage in New Rochelle (again, I'm not sure if it was the Bonnefoy PL fire or not). I remember the incident because I was so surprised by YFD's decision to pull out. This is not "slander", it's what happened during the particular incident that I'm recalling. Apparently YFD's procedures that are NOW in place weren't followed that day. That's all I was saying. I didn't personally attack you or YFD, there was no "slander" spoken or implied.

Second, what I mean by "prematurely" is that 60 control/NRFD didn't decide to release YFD - YFD advised 60 & NRFD that YFD units were returning to quarters. Normally mutual aid is released by the department running the fire, not by mutual aid departments assigned to covering stations. If you recall, in one of your posts you state that YFD REFUSES to sit in a firehouse for more than 30 minutes if that department hasn't started a recall. Kind of a bold policy...I've just never seen a mutual aid/covering department decide that they're going to leave before being relieved by the department actually running the fire scene.

I really don't care if you respect my rank as a chief or not...you don't work for me...but thanks for the thought I guess...and I certainly do recall that I stated YFD REFUSES to sit in a firehouse for more than 30 minutes if that department hasn't started a recall, and I fully support our position on that...if more departments thought that way, I have no doubt that many of the manning problems you all complain about would be solved...and frankly, what happens "normally" in the rest of Westchester doesn't really influence the decisions that the leaders of the YFD make concerning our operations...we make these decisions primarily based on the safety and well being of our own members and the citizens of the city of Yonkers...this of course, does not mean that we don't care about the rest of Westchester, just that we are not afraid to take an unpopular position when we know we are right...

[Monty 35]

I feel that I need to say something but I don't know what. Makes me think of the topic on posting

Several postings talk about changes compared to 30 years ago - generally very valid. I suspect the regionalization group is looking at this as well - especially related to incident calls / volumes. I think this is a key point. From my understanding, fires are way down. Crime is probably about the same or higher, medical calls are up. School costs / expectations are up. In that light, the Fire Service has to adapt.

Yes, the public has tremendous respect (rightfully so) for fire fighters. Now bear with me .... are they so thrilled when they are paying these firefighters to sit around so much waiting for the big one? Given the taxes - I think no. So, the 'management' needs to find a way to manage this. Add EMS, Code Enforcement, Parking Enforcement (?), etc to the duties. Yes, fires do effect the tax base and desirability of neigborhoods, but not anywhere near as much as crime or education.

Absolutely we need safe manning levels - and I know some places (career and volunteer) do not have this and it should be fixed. But again, as others have said, we try to do too much, often with too little. Maybe we should be less aggressive at times - just these past months, how many FF's have been seriously injured / killed dealing with our THIRD priority of property conservation? Too many. Two other things that have changed that we need to consider are fuel loads and construction. How long is it before a room and contents fire (eg bedroom) compromises the structure (truss roof / floor)? Not very long.

Personally, I believe we need to take all these things in to consideration - it will also make the argument a much stronger one if you can justify all sides. We need to look at all sides and have a complete strategy, and communicate that. Set expectations with the public. I'm sure a lot of the public have lower expectations than we do (except of course when its their problem). I certainly wish the best for the study in lower WC - and would hope to see it spread northwards.

I guess as a final parting question, I wonder how many career firefighters live in the suburbs for the better school systems and how they would feel if the funding was diverted from the schools to replace the 'volunteer' department, or taxes were increased to fund the additional costs?

Monty.

[ladder55 26]

i just looked at the youtube video again and im just wondering if the m/a was there at the time of the video. anyone know?

[firemoose827 324]

Domenick, it was clear to me why you asked the question in your original post and it was a very good question, which is why I got involved here. It was of course, very predictable which direction this thread would go. For me, after 20 years in the Fire Service, I could almost have scripted all the replys and back and forth. (Except the part about PD- how the heck did that get brought into it?)

I think we should all ask ourselves this question: Am I taking all this too personally? Try to look at this(these) issues objectively and not through the prism of just your own town/ village/ city, and ask yourself what is really best for the public we are sworn to protect. Stop being hypocritical and patting yourselves on the back all the time (some of you). Look in the mirror before you point your finger. There was / is obviously a problem in Pelham. A routine fire. It is supposed to be a combination department. The career guys on duty, all 3 of them, I think, are supposed to drive the apparatus to the scene and operate the apparatus and then the volunteers provide the manpower. If the system works as advertised, why did so many outside departments need to respond? If the system doesn't work, why aren't the "leaders" (chiefs and union) not loudly complaining about it??? To me, it is their moral obligation to do so. People like Bnechis, a very knowledgeable and hardworking individual, just do not get it. He continues to explain away and excuse WHY the municipalities can't afford adequate fire protection. It is not your job to do that and what you say about how much taxes will have to be raised, etc. simply is not true. Maybe the FD needs to be given a higher priority and other things can be cut. Maybe other revenue sources can be identified. There are many factors at work here. I actually believe the regionalization plan being discussed could work here in Westchester... the problem is, it never will unless bold steps are taken, such as the things Yonkers has done over the years, and thus the reason since I came on almost exactly 20 years ago that we have increased our manpower and resources significantly, and virtually no other department in Westchester has...There were many naysayers in the years here in Yonkers (our own guys and chiefs) telling us to just be happy with what we had, the city was broke, blah, blah, but many of us pushed forward and made the case for what we needed, and 20 years later- a fully manned and trained heavy rescue where there was none, a thriving special ops and training divisions where there was little or none, a Battalion 2 aide where there was none, minimum manning clause, adequate spare and reserve apparatus, and more. And why was it so important to accomplish all this? To feed our own egos or fill our pockets- nope, although it is nice to make a decent living and to feel pride in your department...the real reason for all of us to push to obtain the tools we need to do our jobs is because we have a moral obligation to the public we are sworn to protect.

If you make this argument convincingly enough, with some courage and tenacity, who can stop you?

I respect you especially chief, for taking the time to explain this situation to me better, since Im from "Upstate" as another member put it.

It must be rough for 3 career guys to drive equipment to a fire, only to have no one else show up, and I cant begin to fully feel the frustration either. I know career guys who are by themselves with no other staff, and drive the truck to the scene just to hope the volunteers show up and have questioned him numerous times how that works. Its an issue that definately needs addressing, like mentioned earlier, and I apologise, with everyones posts I lost track of who you are, but someone mentioned 3 guys on a Garbage truck and only two on a fire truck. Society has definately lost track of its priorities if it feels that one guy cant handle throwing some garbage in a truck and dumping it somewhere, but on the same token they feel ONE guy can drive the truck, operate the pump, stretch the line, vent the windows...OH YAH, and save someones life all by themselves!!!?

Maybe Seth could print this out and send it to every politician in the area, or e-mail it to them in an effort to get them thinking about change for staffing fire stations, and change for training standards for volunteers to improve the service that everyone receives. Or, we can start an online petition for us all to sign?

Just some thoughts to help with this problem that our brothers are facing everday.

Moose

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Domenick, it was clear to me why you asked the question in your original post and it was a very good question, which is why I got involved here. It was of course, very predictable which direction this thread would go. For me, after 20 years in the Fire Service, I could almost have scripted all the replys and back and forth. (Except the part about PD- how the heck did that get brought into it?)

I think we should all ask ourselves this question: Am I taking all this too personally? Try to look at this(these) issues objectively and not through the prism of just your own town/ village/ city, and ask yourself what is really best for the public we are sworn to protect. Stop being hypocritical and patting yourselves on the back all the time (some of you). Look in the mirror before you point your finger. There was / is obviously a problem in Pelham. A routine fire. It is supposed to be a combination department. The career guys on duty, all 3 of them, I think, are supposed to drive the apparatus to the scene and operate the apparatus and then the volunteers provide the manpower. If the system works as advertised, why did so many outside departments need to respond? If the system doesn't work, why aren't the "leaders" (chiefs and union) not loudly complaining about it??? To me, it is their moral obligation to do so. People like Bnechis, a very knowledgeable and hardworking individual, just do not get it. He continues to explain away and excuse WHY the municipalities can't afford adequate fire protection. It is not your job to do that and what you say about how much taxes will have to be raised, etc. simply is not true. Maybe the FD needs to be given a higher priority and other things can be cut. Maybe other revenue sources can be identified. There are many factors at work here. I actually believe the regionalization plan being discussed could work here in Westchester... the problem is, it never will unless bold steps are taken, such as the things Yonkers has done over the years, and thus the reason since I came on almost exactly 20 years ago that we have increased our manpower and resources significantly, and virtually no other department in Westchester has...There were many naysayers in the years here in Yonkers (our own guys and chiefs) telling us to just be happy with what we had, the city was broke, blah, blah, but many of us pushed forward and made the case for what we needed, and 20 years later- a fully manned and trained heavy rescue where there was none, a thriving special ops and training divisions where there was little or none, a Battalion 2 aide where there was none, minimum manning clause, adequate spare and reserve apparatus, and more. And why was it so important to accomplish all this? To feed our own egos or fill our pockets- nope, although it is nice to make a decent living and to feel pride in your department...the real reason for all of us to push to obtain the tools we need to do our jobs is because we have a moral obligation to the public we are sworn to protect.

If you make this argument convincingly enough, with some courage and tenacity, who can stop you?

Because apparently we are taking away all the FD's FEDERAL MONEY and HAZ MAT JOBS.

You are correct. Not even being in the FIRE SERVICE I could have written where this was going.

It also helped that you had BULLDOG as a UNION PRESIDENT who is now COMMISONER.

To you, and remember585, I realise that and respect that. I as a volunteer have well over that 300 hours of training and continue to look for more every chance I get. I understand the need for the same level of training to back you up in a fire situation, but not all volunteers are as you make them out to be.

Like me, I am a firefighter II, I have taken this class, and others atleast 3 times each now in my career and will refresh them again as soon as I get some time. I took numerous other courses to back that up, and not just to say I took them either, I had to pass a test to get my certificate and I learned from every class I take.

I respect all of you who report to work everyday and train hard everyday, I wish I could be in your shoes but not all of us are lucky enough to call ourselves "career" firefighters, BUT, does that make some of us any less "Professional"? That is all Im trying to say, dont include "ALL" of the volunteers when you talk about us in that way. There are bad apples everywhere you go, including career departments.

I respect ALL of you...which is my point.

Everyone should be like you and want to better themselves. I take classes on my own with my own money. What does it get me at work? NOTHING, but I know that it makes me a better and smarter person and that is what counts. Of course I would like more money for knowledge that I have. I am a realist though and know it isn't going to happen.

Career guys are going or at least should be more trained than volunteers. I would hope that the money City, Towns, and Villages spend on Paid guys goes for more than sitting around waiting for the alarm to go off. I want them to be training. I would love to know that if my house is on Fire or in the case where FD's respond to aided cases that I am getting the BEST possible. I deserve it and so does the rest of the Community.

Edited March 14, 2008 by ONEEYEDMIC

[ladder55 26]

im not positive how it is in a combo dept but just assuming. you have 3 career guys sitting there when a structure fire comes in. do they wait for vollys to show up and if they do how long do they wait? now the vollys get there and the rigs are gone. they have to grab their gear and get back into their cars and drive to location. once there they have to get dressed before doing anything. from the time of dispatch to the time they get on scene im sure a few minutes have gone by. if im wrong or off on this let me know.

getting back to the training issue. i cant see how anyone says vollys are so undertrained. from what i can see we protect our districts just fine. we are set to a standard that law deems suitable to fight a fire (ff1) and to drive the app.(pump ops, evoc, ladder ops etc.) if law required us to have 300 hours or 600 hours im sure they would make it a standard. just like many other vollys i have taken it upon myself to take additional classes to learn more and im sure there are people that take the bare minimum but i trust the guys in my fd just as much as i would trust a "professional"