Was: Pelham FD Staffing? Now: Regionalization/Staffing and More

[LTNRFD 266]

You act as if Yonkers YFD stole funding from NRFD. Are you of the impression that, in the whole big state budget, if Yonkers had gotten less, than New Rochelle would have gotten more? It's our fault?

It seems like you have some personal resentment toward the YFD. As I stated in my initial post, I respect the NRFD. I'm sorry you are so angry and resentful, I don't think you are in touch with the mainstream of the NRFD though, with whom YFD has very good relations.

I doubt very much what you have stated concerning the "Bonnefoy Pl." fire is true. How about some more detail and substantiation.?

I have no resentment against YFD. Everyone makes statements about manning, what we should have and be more like YFD. The City of Yonkers was able through their budget problems in the early 80's to secure massive funding over the years from the state. They have had the pleasure of their state Senators to be able to MAINTAIN that funding. If any other municipality got the type of funding that Yonkers enjoys, then I'm sure they all would do the right thing and put a good part of that money into their fire department along with other departments in their city, but most municipalities don't get the funding.

Yes, I will agree that some municipalities are rolling the dice with their manning. Those that DON'T want to FIX their problems should have pressure put on them to up the manning. Especially the departments that have publicly stated that 'They have X dept right down the road and they will back us up'. Calling for help immediately for a 'bread and butter' fire has to stop. I don't want my F.D. subsidizing another community, especially those that can't return the coverage. However, not providing coverage to the rest to the community doesn't help John Q. Public, who most likely doesn't know what's going on.

As to my association to a Volunteer Fire Dept. I was prior to coming on the job a volunteer and now that I am retired I have continued my association. This should add to my credibility, as to I have seen the process from both sides. Something that a lot of people posting here have no clue as to the workings in another department. Every situation is different and there is no cookie cutter fix.

Everyone stay safe and try to keep an open mind to see the problems from at least 2 sides, maybe 3.

[JFLYNN 681]

No offense, but for what it's worth, I'll vouch for him - I recall that on at least one occasion while I was on duty, Yonkers FD pulled their units from standby duty out of New Rochelle's quarters pre-maturely. It's been a while since I worked at 60-control so I don't remember the specifics, but I do know that it...has....happened. Whether or not it was Bonnefoy Pl I can't say for sure.

Again a statement is made which cannot be backed up. I have stated what Yonkers mutual aid policy is and I can back this up. You stated that we left New Rochelle "prematurely"...define prematurely and give a specific incident please. A statement was made that Yonkers apparatus drove past a fire on their way out of New Rochelle...this is slander as far as I am concerned...if it is true give a date and the apparatus involved...

[JFLYNN 681]

I have no resentment against YFD. Everyone makes statements about manning, what we should have and be more like YFD. The City of Yonkers was able through their budget problems in the early 80's to secure massive funding over the years from the state. They have had the pleasure of their state Senators to be able to MAINTAIN that funding. If any other municipality got the type of funding that Yonkers enjoys, then I'm sure they all would do the right thing and put a good part of that money into their fire department along with other departments in their city, but most municipalities don't get the funding.

Yes, I will agree that some municipalities are rolling the dice with their manning. Those that DON'T want to FIX their problems should have pressure put on them to up the manning. Especially the departments that have publicly stated that 'They have X dept right down the road and they will back us up'. Calling for help immediately for a 'bread and butter' fire has to stop. I don't want my F.D. subsidizing another community, especially those that can't return the coverage. However, not providing coverage to the rest to the community doesn't help John Q. Public, who most likely doesn't know what's going on.

As to my association to a Volunteer Fire Dept. I was prior to coming on the job a volunteer and now that I am retired I have continued my association. This should add to my credibility, as to I have seen the process from both sides. Something that a lot of people posting here have no clue as to the workings in another department. Every situation is different and there is no cookie cutter fix.

Everyone stay safe and try to keep an open mind to see the problems from at least 2 sides, maybe 3.

So, BEFORE you were a member of NRFD you were a volunteer somewhere (but you won't tell us where)...you worked however many years on NRFD and were NOT a volunteer during that whole time, then you retired and are NOW a volunteer again but your family and home are in New Rochelle????

Sure, all this is possible, but I find it hard to believe and thus it goes to your credibility.

[helicopper 1,050]

All,

This has been a very informative thread and a wide array of viewpoints are being shared. I'd just ask that, in the interest of keeping it civil, we all refrain from personally directed comments (in accordance with the forum rules) so it remains productive and objective.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation!

[JFLYNN 681]

Already figured it out and it is achivable. All of the chief's have seen it and agree.

For the record, I also totally believe that this is possible, and I think it is the goal you should be trying to achieve. However, as I have said, all the fancy data, plans, charts and graphs, are uselsss if the chiefs and unions don't get together and start making noise. No noise about the recent fire in Pelham or the decision to not hire 5 Firefighters in MT. Vernon. Call a press conference. Write letters and put people on the spot. When a chief writes a letter to a municipal leader (or gets on TV or in the papers) stating that in his professional opinion, the department is extremely undermanned and if something isn't done, tragedy will result (which it will), it makes it a lot more likely that you will accomplish what you are trying to accomplish- adequate fire protection for the public we are sworn to protect.

[Remember585 815]

Question for all in the lower county whether paid, combo or fully volunteer. Do you have a set minimum for the number of firefighters you send Mutual Aid on each apparatus? I ask because in the neck of the woods I hail from we (at least our FD) will not send an apparatus with less then four Interiors. This applies both to the relocates and to the scene.

Chief Flynn makes a good point. If Department heads don't become verbal and create a strong presence concerning the staffing they lack, who is going to know and if they don't know, how will they be expected to fix it? I'm not on the job, I'm just a volunteer, but the same principle applies to us as well. If we truly need something and we aren't getting the cooperation we need, then rest assured we would become vocal. The best example I can recall was a few years ago when we needed a new firehouse and renovations to another - we held open houses, put photos and facts in the papers and went to several Village Board meetings to make people aware of our issues. The end result worked in our favor.

Captain Nechis and the study concerning consolidation is intelligent and applaudable. It's a great idea and I hope for everyone involve's sake it works out. On a side note and not to stray off of this topic, but it's well past time for some departments in other parts of WC to consider consolidation or even.... dare it be said.... paid staffing. Seriously, how many times can you tone out an FD for manpower? As someone told me a long time ago, if there is no manpower to call upon, then you're just wasting your time and putting your peoples' lives at undue risk. Your people, the ones that need your help and those that expect a standard of service are getting the mud end of the stick.

And as far as the stance Yonkers takes, it is very respectable that they are looking out for their union brothers (and sister), as I am sure most departments do for their people. After all, you pay dues for a reason, right?

[jloftus 28]

Yonkers has been the ONLY department that has been consitent on this issue and I would love to see those guys in our city, but the standards they set awhile ago were the right thing to do. Send them the same as they send, pretty simple. What they were saying is there is a real reason for these standards, safety for US, when we mention this on my job the bosses cringe, why because they know inside this is the right thing but saying so would be to fight a system that tells you to keep it low key and everything is OK, our old Commish tried to debate Tony on this issue back when and got hammered, the foot doctor then went out of his way to make sure all in the city was anti-Yonkers, let see "we couldnt have used a good resource close by" New Rochelle is our 3rd due truck as part of our assingment, now I do understand these guys have to do what there told ,and understand its our job. MA is what it is until someone steps up and says enough is enough, every department has a different problem here, the bottom line, lower westchester should be one department, but as we know, No chief is going to let go of his power, and the County is using blinders on this issue.

Edited March 13, 2008 by jloftus

[Guest]

ACTUALLY, IT IS THE CHIEFS OF A GROUP OF LOWER WESTCHESTER FIRE DEPARTMENTS THAT ARE SPEARHEADING THE CONSOLIDATION STUDY. MOST OF THESE CHIEFS ARE IN THE BOTTOM OF THE EIGHTH INNING OF THEIR CAREERS ( SOME IN EXTRA INNINGS) THOSE WHO ARE YOUNG WILL DO FINE IN THIS CONSOLIDATION. SO THE CHIEFS ARE NOT THE ISSUE,THE CHIEFS HAVE BROUGHT THIS ENTIRE CONCEPT FORWARD AND HAVE EVEN LINKED WITH PACE UNIVERSITY TO HAVE A MORE PROFESSIONAL AND COMPLETE STUDY.

I THINK THIS WILL BE THE ONLY REALISTIC WAY TO HAVE THE GOALS DISCIBED IN THESE POSTING COME TRUE IN A VERY LARGE PORTION OF THE COUNTY.

[Bnechis 3,961]

the bottom line, lower westchester should be one department, but as we know, No chief is going to let go of his power, and the County is using blinders on this issue.

While a few years back I believe that is correct, currently many of the chiefs involved in the study are in the bottom of the 8th inning career wise (with a few in the 10th in double overtime) The chiefs are the ones who are paying for the study and they are the ones who have been saying this is the right thing to do. The next question is will the members back this up. I strongly believe it will be in the best interest of the members; safer with proper manning, more officers, better chance for promotion, better job security and better contracts.

The county has very little to do with this issue since none of the depts work for the county and when (not if, because this is going to happen, maybe not in our lifetime, but it is coming) it occurs it will not be a county dept.

[Guest FFNick]

Is there any info available to the public in regards to this study, or is it only in the formative stages, with no "official" findings?

Is there anyway to find out who is in it and what their formal tasks/goals as a committee have been? Being an out-of-stater, I have only heard about it through this thread.

Thanks

[jloftus 28]

I have attended two of these meetings as VP of local 107, my take from those meetings, most of the legwork was put on the unions, including money for the survey, and at the end of the day I cant see some people letting go of what they think is their turf. When I talk of the County, they know whats at stake here and have a resopnsiblilty to fine a way to make this work, bottom line is, we have been very lucky with LODD and the right numbers going in makes all the difference.

[ajsbear 11]

I'm going to go back to something I said in an earlier thread. "CONSOIDATE" We have so much duplication. Why does every department need a Rescue? Why can't some departments share. 2, 3 , 4 ladders with the same number just 5 minutes out? It's time to think BIG PICTURE and forget the little fifedums. Like one of you said, the younger chiefs will survive. Maybe its time for a few retirements. I am not aiming at anyone so don't hang me. The greater good it to start consolidating resources. Just go to the county website and look at the amount of rigs in this county. We're not far behind Long Island in duplication of services. OK I know I'm going to get shot for that statement. It's time we stop bickering and come up with a solution. Hiring 2 zillion more FF's is not the answer. Taxes are out of control everyplace. In 10 years my taxes have nearly doubled and I say enough. We need less government, more working together and its a shame none of the people see it. This thing about size of department arguements have been around for 50 years. Start sharing and you start to solve the problem. The agument "I come to more fires in your district then you to mine" is BS. As long as there are fires we'll all come lets face it. Just remember its a calling not just a job for most. We all do this because we love it. Who among you won't stop if you see a job or an MVA with no apparatus on scene to do what we can? how many career guys started as Volly's? How Many still volunteer where they live? As this site stands for WORKING TOGETHER solves more than pulling separate.

Who wants the soap box next?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Is there any info available to the public in regards to this study, or is it only in the formative stages, with no "official" findings?

Is there anyway to find out who is in it and what their formal tasks/goals as a committee have been? Being an out-of-stater, I have only heard about it through this thread. Thanks

The only public info at this time was a press release that was made by Pace Univ. at the begining of the process.

The Draft is due out in the next 30 days. By draft, we mean that a version will go to the chiefs (that contracted this to be developed) to ensure acuracy of any statements about existing depts. Then it will be finalized.

The 5th district of the NYSPFF (union) has been advised in the past as to the progress, but has only been recently asked to sit down to start to activly participat in the process. It has been understood thru the process that the study can not proceed without the unions active involvement.

The depts. that are being study include: Eastchester, Fairview, Greenville, Hartsdale, Larchmont, Mt Vernon, New Rochelle, Pelham, Pelham Manor and Scarsdale. The process was open to others, who at this time politly declined (but all said they would be willing to assist in the process). This does not mean that in the final format all of these depts will merge, just that they were willing to look at how merging would help the fire protection needs of their district.

Currently there are 3 committees:

1) Operations, which has been mostly dealing with mapping. Determining the number of rigs, stations and manpower needed to meet the standards.

2) Finance (what is currently spent and what the total cost of #1's recomendations are).

3) Legal (what will it take to make this occur)

Additional committees are anticipated once the draft is out. These include labor, volunteers (since some of the depts still have them) and others.

[hudson144 150]

J Flynn- to address why nobody said anything about why the 5 in MV were not hired its because of the budget and that the dept is looking to put in 4 generators for the firehouses! (BS) we all know why the hiring didn't take place. As far as the mayor saying about the budget as well as the generators, I read something which basically showed that the mayor was trying to make a point why he didn't hire. For one,those positions have been in the budget for years. Because of the fact that promotions took place as well as retirements that is where the 5 slots came from.Its not like these 5 positions were an increase to the manning. He stated that he was looking into much needed generators. (not a budget item) A grant was recieved a few years ago for the generators= more missing grant funds under the Davis administration! Alot of this stuff on this post is intersting reading,very valid points. when we send a trk/eng out on mutual aid we decrease our manpower almost to 1/2. By all rights we should not be sending anyone out of town! Some day it might happen where they get caught but it would be old news the next day.

[Bnechis 3,961]

What are the numbers that are needed?

To meet the most basic goal of NFPA 1710, including placing 16 on every 1st alarm (and we are not saying that that is enough personnel) this is what is needed if the depts do not work together:

Eastchester - 75

Fairview - 40

Greenville - 45

Hartsdale - 45

Larchmont - 65

Mt Vernon - 50

New Rochelle - 30

Pelham - 65

Pelham Manor - 65

Scarsdale - 40

Thats 500 additional ff's & officers at a cost of $75 million. Who here thinks this is going to happen?

With consolidation we can meet the 1710 goals within the current or slightly increased manning.

[hudson144 150]

Westchester 3000? Barry- if the hudson regional depts did it why can't we? Depts like west ny NJ- if I am not misyaken they merged to help the various depts with manning etc.

Edited March 13, 2008 by hudson144

[Guest]

JLOFTUS------The county has nothing to do with this, this would be an independent fire district or fire authority and be self sufficient with the ability to tax properties to fund the protection.

One goos thing, you will not have to compete with other city services for municipal funding.

Edited March 13, 2008 by jack10562
Removed ALL CAPS

[hudson144 150]

Snotty- by becoming a Fire District the funds would be seperate from the citys tax base, how would that be done and would it be easy to establish a fire district with joint depts? In other words- if each municipality charged each homeowner,business etc a fire tax this would all be into one budget? Then it would be used to pay salaries,benefits etc? Has any numbers been discussed? It looks interesting.

Edited March 13, 2008 by hudson144

[HFD23 37]

What are the numbers that are needed?

To meet the most basic goal of NFPA 1710, including placing 16 on every 1st alarm (and we are not saying that that is enough personnel) this is what is needed if the depts do not work together:

Eastchester - 75

Fairview - 40

Greenville - 45

Hartsdale - 45

Larchmont - 65

Mt Vernon - 50

New Rochelle - 30

Pelham - 65

Pelham Manor - 65

Scarsdale - 40

Thats 500 additional ff's & officers at a cost of $75 million. Who here thinks this is going to happen?

With consolidation we can meet the 1710 goals within the current or slightly increased manning.

just wondering where you got these numbers?

does that mean HFD needs 45 more guys to meet the 16 on the 1st alarm?

or are u saying to staff our 2 engines and ladder we need 45 total?

[Guest]

HUDSON 144 ---- These are the questions we need answered, that is why we brought in Pace University to help us, in the legal and financial areas, especially. We do not know the answer to all questions at this moment. Perhaps when the study comes out some questions will be covered.

Edited March 13, 2008 by jack10562
Edited ALL CAPS

[jayhalsey 6]

So, BEFORE you were a member of NRFD you were a volunteer somewhere (but you won't tell us where)...you worked however many years on NRFD and were NOT a volunteer during that whole time, then you retired and are NOW a volunteer again but your family and home are in New Rochelle????

Sure, all this is possible, but I find it hard to believe and thus it goes to your credibility.

What exactly is so hard to believe about this statement? That someone was a volunteer, went carreer, retired and reconnected with their volunteer company? Did you ask where he was a volunteer? Why should that matter? You seem to be letting you anti volunteer tendencies show through.

[firemoose827 324]

I'm going to go back to something I said in an earlier thread. "CONSOIDATE" We have so much duplication. Why does every department need a Rescue? Why can't some departments share. 2, 3 , 4 ladders with the same number just 5 minutes out? It's time to think BIG PICTURE and forget the little fifedums. Like one of you said, the younger chiefs will survive. Maybe its time for a few retirements. I am not aiming at anyone so don't hang me. The greater good it to start consolidating resources. Just go to the county website and look at the amount of rigs in this county. We're not far behind Long Island in duplication of services. OK I know I'm going to get shot for that statement. It's time we stop bickering and come up with a solution. Hiring 2 zillion more FF's is not the answer. Taxes are out of control everyplace. In 10 years my taxes have nearly doubled and I say enough. We need less government, more working together and its a shame none of the people see it. This thing about size of department arguements have been around for 50 years. Start sharing and you start to solve the problem. The agument "I come to more fires in your district then you to mine" is BS. As long as there are fires we'll all come lets face it. Just remember its a calling not just a job for most. We all do this because we love it. Who among you won't stop if you see a job or an MVA with no apparatus on scene to do what we can? how many career guys started as Volly's? How Many still volunteer where they live? As this site stands for WORKING TOGETHER solves more than pulling separate.

Who wants the soap box next?

EXACTLY! Well said ajsbear, I could not agree with you more. We need to focus more on being a combined unit and not what type of dept or firefighter we are, and whos district the fire is in and who goes MA...we miss the main point. There is a fire, send the units needed to extinguish the fire AND keep our firefighters safe while doing this, and keep protection for the rest of the district. WHy does all of this other stuff matter? Does the name of the City/Town/Village on the back of the coat really matter, or does it matter we have the resources needed to handle the job safely with no injury or LODD?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Westchester 3000? Barry- if the hudson regional depts did it why can't we? Depts like west ny NJ- if I am not misyaken they merged to help the various depts with manning etc.

One of the concerns is that Hudson merge was forced on them by the elected leadership with little warning or planning...i.e. next monday thou shall be one dept.

When talking with them they agree that the road the took was extra hard because of that (including the unions going to court to stop the process). But they seam to all agree now that it was the best thing that could have happened.

We are trying to learn from there experience as to how to do this "right".

[Bnechis 3,961]

just wondering where you got these numbers?

does that mean HFD needs 45 more guys to meet the 16 on the 1st alarm?

or are u saying to staff our 2 engines and ladder we need 45 total?

If you have 8 onduty now and need 16 on the 1st alarm thats 8 addition per shift x 4 shifts = 32 + approx 22% to cover contractual time off. This is based on a standard manning calculation of 5.25 ff's per seat to maintain 24/7 coverage with a 38-40 workweek.

[Guest]

Im not a big numbers guy.Im not up on nfpa,osha xyz etc etc, and to be honest, I could care less what they have to say. I have been in the Fire Service my whole life. i know how to put out fires. With that said...this seems to me like a whole bunch of in fighting.

Everyone must remember one thing...the Fire Service is and has been under attack for some time now. Departments all over the country are being forced to hire people that are unqualified just for the sake of diversity. These Departments are always the FIRST place city hall comes to for cuts. Most Departments do not have the proper manpower and some lack updated equipment.

Now, I would have thought that after 911, the Fire Service would be viewed upon as a necessary and appriciated part of any city, town or whatever. It seems that just the oppisite has happened.

While police departments end up with lots more federal money and with politicians feeding into them, they are growing. Alot of police departments have branched out into areas that the Fire Dept's use to be in charge of. This is duplication of service and very dangerous.

My opinion on why the FD's are cut first are that 1) they do not produce revenue 2) OUR DEDICATION kills us, they know we will do the job no matter what. If there are vollie outfits that run into the city in question, that would be another reason why the cities feel they can cut. Knowing full well that help is just a phone call away.

Mutual aid has always been around and it is based on the need of serving the people. Oh yeah, thats a big big part of what im talking about. Lets never forget that we are here to protect life and property at all costs.

I hope things work out for all you guys in these different dept's. I think it would be better for all to work together and show a united front for the sake of the Fire Service.

[HFD23 37]

If you have 8 onduty now and need 16 on the 1st alarm thats 8 addition per shift x 4 shifts = 32 + approx 22% to cover contractual time off. This is based on a standard manning calculation of 5.25 ff's per seat to maintain 24/7 coverage with a 38-40 workweek.

ok just wondering, current full staffing is 9 on the street per group thats 4 groups total 36 so your numbers were off alittle... granted a FF can be on vaction or so forth under the current system, the rest makes sense, thanks for clarifying

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Im not a big numbers guy.Im not up on nfpa,osha xyz etc etc, and to be honest, I could care less what they have to say. I have been in the Fire Service my whole life. i know how to put out fires. With that said...this seems to me like a whole bunch of in fighting.

Everyone must remember one thing...the Fire Service is and has been under attack for some time now. Departments all over the country are being forced to hire people that are unquilified just for the sake of diversity. These Departments are always the FIRST place city hall comes to for cuts. Most Departments do not have the proper manpower and some lack updated equipment.

Now, I would have thought that after 911, the Fire Service would be viewed upon as a necessary and appriciated part of any city, town or whatever. It seems that just the oppisite has happened.

While police departments end up with lots more federal money and with politicians feeding into them, they are growing. Alot of police departments have branched out into areas that the Fire Dept's use to be in charge of. This is duplication of service and very dangerous.

My opinion on why the FD's are cut first are that 1) they do not produce revenue 2) OUR DEDICATION kills us, they know we will do the job no matter what. If there are vollie outfits that run into the city in question, that would be another reason why the cities feel they can cut. Knowing full well that help is just a phone call away.

Mutual aid has always been around and it is based on the need of serving the people. Oh yeah, thats a big big part of what im talking about. Lets never forget that we are here to protect life and property at all costs.

I hope things work out for all you guys in these different dept's. I think it would be better for all to work together and show a united front for the sake of the Fire Service.

What kind of attack has the FD been under? Who says that they are forced to hire under qualified personell? Before 9/11/01 was the FD necessary and appreciated? What do you think has changed since that horrible day? What PD's are growing? Every PD I look at seems to be under manned as well.

Maybe Federal money is going to some PD's but could that be for the WAR ON TERROR? What does PD do that they have never done that the FD has always done?

I am just curious. I have not chimed in on this topic because I am not a FF. Either the whole COUNTY should go PAID or just the CITY's should stay paid. I think to have some paid or partially paid dept's like above is ridiculous. I am sure that many VFD's do more runs then at least 2 of the names on the above list. Unless of course they have implemented AIDED cases to their runs.

FDONTHEJOB it seems that you are turning this into a PD vs FD discussion. Is that your intention?

MODERATOR NOTE TO ALL: This WILL NOT become a PD vs FD rant or debate. Let's keep it professional and objective.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) they do not produce revenue

While FD's do not produce revenue, they can save property owners way more than they cost.

In NR for example the average property owner pay about $325/yr for FD. If we had no FD (and he gets his $325 back) his property insurance goes up by $1,200/yr so the savings are about $875 x every building in town.

The Fire service is not good at "sell" its economic value. What is the true cost of fire protection? Its not just the FD Budget.

[Guest]

Hfd ---- you have to figure in people being off on contractual leave--it actually takes 5 or little more than five to keep a seat filled 24/7. of course you can figure four men and fill the open spot each time with overtime, but i guess it would still add up to 45 money wise.

The department that might come out of this study would do about 30,000 runs a year it might be the second largest fire department in new york state, it would need an undetermined number of new firefighters appointed, about 75 gents promoted to company officer and a significant group elevated to chief officer. The way we figure, in areas of the district 22 men would be on the scene in 8 minutes aboard two engine,two trucks,a heavy rescue and a chief with aide. First due should arrive in four minutes

the closest fire units would be dispatched,disregarding political boundaries, all units would have an officer and three firefighters.

MODERATOR NOTE TO SNOTTY: turn off your CAPS LOCK if you wish to continue posting.

Edited March 13, 2008 by jack10562
ALL CAPS

[Guest]

Oneeye...Since you are not in the Fire Service, you would not understand. Im not looking to make this a fd vs pd thing but if you want, I can go there.

The attacks I speak about are budget cuts. Budget cuts that close companies, take away manning levels, take away monies needed for equipment and the hiring of new people. I guess you must live under a rock if you do not see what has been happening to civil service. The tests are being watered down and FD's are forced, yes forced to hire people less qualified. I guess being in law enforcement you are use to that. I know where I come from the pd caved in long before the FD did.The pd also gets much more fed money than the FD and has hijacked some of the FD's duties. Its a political game that is dangerous and boarders on the criminal.

I hope I answered all your questions and concerns.

My post was to members of the Fire Service, and my message was to show a united front.

MODERATOR NOTE TO ALL: This WILL NOT become a PD vs FD rant or debate. Let's keep it professional and objective.