Fainting fireman sues to get job back

[INIT915 1,119]

SARATOGA SPRINGS, N.Y. (AP) -- A firefighter fired for fainting is suing the city of Saratoga Springs. Nathaniel King lost his job with the city fire department in December when he failed to complete newly required paramedic training, according to a lawsuit filed against the city in state Supreme Court in Saratoga County. Now he's suing to get his job back and for back pay.

The problem is, needles are his nemesis. During paramedic training, King fainted dead away every time he had to give an injection or start an intravenous line.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/ODD...EMPLATE=DEFAULT

[dadbo46 50]

Give the guy a break !

Seems to me that the City changed the condition of employment (after appointment had to become a medic). I suspect that this was negotiated between the city and union with some kind of financial inducement.

However, there should be a fallback position that the union needs to articulate.

[E58RET 24]

I agree that the terms of appointment were changed after he was hired, there are many people who have an aversion to needles, but to discriminate against it is ludicrous. I personally used to faint when getting a shot, overcame it during medic training. I hope this guy wins his case

Edited March 11, 2008 by DOC22
Improper use of upper case, spelling and grammar

[JCESU 20]

It should be interesting to see how they rule on this case. There are all sorts of issues from Federal ADA, contractual and rules and regulations etc. that could prove positive and/or negative for his claim. But I would think that management's argument would be largely based on the ff's 'fitness for duty' and 'managerial prerogative' as far as job assignment goes. The big question is...the original job description and how much the job description was altered and does it reasonably deviate from requirements of similar agencies by increasing the level of training and standards . Its certainly going to take some fancy footwork on the part of their Union/lawyers to make the argument. But like always, a lawyer, whom has not a clue about public safety work will make the call. Go figure...

[res6cue 67]

Hmm, maybe I'm missing something here:

- Job requirements changed (happens all the time)

- Guy couldn't meet those new requirements

- Guy loses job

Does it suck? Sure, but it is what it is.

This agency wanted to increase the skill level of their employees (something we're always calling for, right?), so they did just that. Unfortunately, this guy couldn't pass the medic class because he PASSES OUT whenever he has to stick someone! Sorry, but that's kind of an important factor here. And now what, the agency should make an exception for him and allow him to keep working as an EMT when everyone else had to pass the medic class? Sorry, I don't buy that. If a guy was hired as a firefighter, and during the academy you found out he passes out every time he sees FLAMES, would you allow him to remain on the job?!?

[ex-commish 490]

Hmm, maybe I'm missing something here:

- Job requirements changed (happens all the time)

- Guy couldn't meet those new requirements

- Guy loses job

Does it suck? Sure, but it is what it is.

This agency wanted to increase the skill level of their employees (something we're always calling for, right?), so they did just that. Unfortunately, this guy couldn't pass the medic class because he PASSES OUT whenever he has to stick someone! Sorry, but that's kind of an important factor here. And now what, the agency should make an exception for him and allow him to keep working as an EMT when everyone else had to pass the medic class? Sorry, I don't buy that. If a guy was hired as a firefighter, and during the academy you found out he passes out every time he sees FLAMES, would you allow him to remain on the job?!?

If a person accepts the position of a firefighter that person knows at one point in time flames will be a factor and knows that up front. In this case the medic position was added after he was hired so I feel there should be a grandfather clause with those allready hired. To new appointees they know being a medic is part of the requirement so they have the choice to make a decision before they go for the job.

Now if the upgrade to medic was negotiated between the union and the city and it applies to all firefighters presently employed than he may have a problem.

[res6cue 67]

Fair point, but I'm still left wondering what would've happened to this guy if he was working as an EMT watching while a medic started a line. Maybe I'm being a jerk, but my feeling is that if you can't handle the site of needles, then you're probably in the wrong line of work!

[Guest feraldan]

There are lots of Firemen who are fantastic Firemen but terrible Paramedics.

There are lots of Paramedics who are amazing Paramedics but terrible Firemen.

Would you rather have lots of people who were really good at their one job or quite a few that couldn't do two jobs well?

I feel like CFR/CPR or even EMT/CPR should be required training for all Firefighters but Paramedic requires knowledge and skills that must be continually practiced to keep viable. There are people who have the ability to do both very well but many people are excellent first responders in their respective field without being totally cross-trained.

If you cross-train everyone, you'll inevitably have people who just barely pass and get their certification but whom I would not let within 500 feet of me if they had an ET tube in their hands.

[ltmdepas3280 1]

Now here's the rest of the story.....The guy in question had been a less than acceptable PROBATIONARY(Key word) Firefighter. He was not terminated because of the needles although that was one part of the problem....he was let go because of a failure to complete his Probationary period. Some people have a problem with taking orders and directions and when you do that while serving probation they terminate you....end of story!

[ltmdepas3280 1]

i AGREE THAT THE TERMS OF APP'T WERE CHANGED AFTER HE WAS HIRED,THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE AN AVERSION TO NEEDLES,BUT TO DICRIMINATE AGAINST IT IS LUDICROUS.I PERSONALLY USED TO FAINT WHEN GETTING A SHOT,OVERCAME IT DURING MEDIC TRAINING.HOPE THIS GUY WINS HIS CASE

Civil Service can change your job discription of the test you take...up until they offer you a job. After that it will fall to what ever the union negotiates. This was done in my city 10 years ago with starting pay.

[JCESU 20]

Aside from the other troubles this gentlemen has i.e.-fear of taking orders, and you guys would know the stats better than me, about what percentage of the fire service is directly related to medical calls specifically ALS? We're not talking about changing his job description from FF to hi-wire trapeze artist. Its a very far stretch to say that his job description was arbitrarily changed to such a degree that it altered the specifications of his promise of employment. Even if it was affirmed that his job description was changed I would say the fact that he has a medical condition, albeit related to passing out from needles, it would still fall under fitness for duty (unfit for duty)and preclude him from employment-especially so early in his career. I have been a Union rep. as long as I have been a cop. And just like a good cop has to think like a criminal to be effective, be safe and one step ahead, so goes the same with dealing with management. Rest assured they probably do not want to be married to, what they probably consider, a problem child and the liabilities that go along with it so its easier to cut there loses now. If they give him what he wants without a fight-guess whats gonna happen next time somebody doesn't want to perform a job function etc.? We are kinda working in the dark as far as facts, but based on whats been said here once it was determined that he passes out because of needles, a big can of worms were opened. I have guys seen guys with similar problems, with much time OTJ, get forced out on a disability pension. Unfortunately, IMO-I think unless they (Union/Lawyers) can document that he is being singled out for some reason they are gonna have a tough battle. As far as probation goes, if he had issues while on probation and the Dept. didn't follow up with progressive discipline they missed the boat. FF is such an unpredictable and dangerous job there is not telling when he may be placed into an environment with needle sticks-MVA's, medical calls, traumas. I would be very curious to see exactly what they charged (admin.) him with in order to terminate him.

[ltmdepas3280 1]

"Unsatisfactory job performance during probation" terminated. You do not have to give a reason while on probation. BTW I spent 10 years has a union rep also and know that the city has alot of rights.

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

How the hell did this guy get through his origional Paramedic training?

[Guest stephentyler20]

I still don't get why we're making people who wanted to be *Firefighters* into *Paramedics* against their will. He's afraid of needles, and I'm afraid of running into burning buildings. That's why HE's a firefighter, and I'M a medic. It's also why firefighters are good at their jobs, and medics are good at theirs.

Medical schools don't accept students who don't want to become doctors... why are paramedic schools training paramedics who don't want to be paramedics?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Because citys want medics AND firefighters, without having to pay 2 people's salaries. Its simple economics.