Interesting use of the axe for ventilation.

[firemoose827 324]

Hey everyone. I was looking at some videos and found this one. Has anyone used the axe like this before? I have never been taught this or have I ever seen the use of the axe in this way, but it looks so much more easy. Any thoughts or actuall experiences are welcome.

[TCD0415 26]

ABSOLUTELY !! We teach this at FDIC in Indy in the Truck Vent Class.

You would be surprised how easy it is to do and can actually be faster than using the blade end of the axe.

When using the Flat Side there is little chance of the axe getting stuck after penetrating the roof material and having to wiggle and pull it back out and start again.

This guy had good technique and when you get into the groove you can really cover some ground quickly.

Next time you have a chance, give it a try.

This of course will not work with a Pick Axe..........

[Guest FFNick]

Maybe that's why Detroit uses a maul?

[robert benz 344]

like anything else it works when it works and....

we tried it last week on a plywood roof/ with a couple of layers of shingles and they broke their butts used the axe the "right" way and it wasnt all that much better.

like most stuff in our world always and never (except for a few things ie seatbelts) dont really work[

[e92l44 0]

Seems to work good, but I think the axe may be too sharp. Sounds wierd but true.

Plus, it seems like in alot of the video, he hits with the blunt side where he just cut with the sharp end.

No reason for axe to have an edge that you can slice roast beef with, our procedures actually call for it to not be sharp at all.

[Remember585 815]

I don't know.... I remember venting a roof or two with an ax a while back, but with saws now.... why the effort with the ax?

I prefer taking a saw and a hook up to the roof personally, any other thought?

Did anyone watch the "venting in 32 seconds" video that the same people did? My biggest peeve when it comes to opening up the roof is when the cutter tries making a perfectly cut box with 4 90 degree corners. OVERLAP THE CUTS to make sure you are making your vent hole and not "almost" making it.

Plus it almost seems like there is no joists in that cut or, based on the depth of the saw's bar, the joists were getting a trim job.

[Guest FFNick]

Plus it almost seems like there is no joists in that cut or, based on the depth of the saw's bar, the joists were getting a trim job.

He rolled over the center joist/rafter of the cut, which is appropriate technique. The opening in that "32 seconds video" is the full width of 2 bays - roughly 32".

Edited March 7, 2008 by FFNick

[firemoose827 324]

I don't know.... I remember venting a roof or two with an ax a while back, but with saws now.... why the effort with the ax?

I prefer taking a saw and a hook up to the roof personally, any other thought?

Good question, but does everything always work 100% of the time? Reason I ask, at a fire a few years back I went to the roof with a Quick Vent saw to vent, the saw was running, I started to cut and the saw quit. There was fuel, it just quit and wouldnt start again. I took the axe from my belt and started to cut while my backup man fiddled with the saw. He never got it running, but I got the vent hole anyway. Just thought this was an interesting technique to avoid getting the axe caught in the roof with every cut.

[Remember585 815]

I agree Moose, nothing ever works 100% of the time, just think how many times someone gets to the roof and the saw is out of fuel or the chain snaps, etc.

Hey Nick, good catch, I didn't really see that in the first time I watched but see what you're saying on my 2nd viewing.

Lucky for me I'm an Engine guy so that stuff is almost Greek to me anyway...

[BFD1054 1,552]

Hey moose, nice catch on the video and good questions and replies.

I first saw this method being used a few years back during training at an acquired structure. A Career FF from Lake Mohegan was up on the roof and showing one of our members how good it worked. LMFD had acquired a structure to train in/on and invited us, Putnam Valley and Yorktown to train with them.

A year or so after seeing it used, we had acquired a structure for training and i went to the roof to practice venting and used the blunt end of the axe to vent and it worked real well. It seemed to not only be easier, but faster as well.

But as a few guys have said, it all depends on the situation and the roof type. It may work for some people, some of the time, but not for everyone all of the time. Its nice to have all these great saws we carry such as the K12 (partner) or quick vent, but as moose pointed out, what if they fail? Sometimes we have to rely on the old faithful axe and its good to know different ways of how to use every tool, including the axe.

[Guest FFNick]

what if they fail? Sometimes we have to rely on the old faithful axe and its good to know different ways of how to use every tool, including the axe.

Yes, they are machines, and anything can happen. However, with good preventive maintenance, and a regular inspection schedule, you should have no problems. The biggest problem usually is flooding it out due to improper starting techniques, and more times than not, having an old fuel mix because the saw hasn't been run enough.

Of course other methods are always good to know for plan B and C.

Just my $.02.

[antiquefirelt 994]

This is also how we have been teaching ventilation with an axe for a few years now. We let each academy class try both ways, almost every third swing with the dull blade gets stuck in the wood, with the flat side- no problem. This also makes for another easy tool selection: take the Irons. You can use the halligan to make a foot hold by spiking the pike into the roof and can them move further off the ladder on steep roof. Of course, the chainsaw and K12 are preferred when they work. We teach if you can walk without a ground ladder use the rotary saw, if you need a ladder use the chainsaw.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Yes, they are machines, and anything can happen. However, with good preventive maintenance, and a regular inspection schedule, you should have no problems. The biggest problem usually is flooding it out due to improper starting techniques, and more times than not, having an old fuel mix because the saw hasn't been run enough.

Of course other methods are always good to know for plan B and C.

Just my $.02.

Nick, i absolutely agree with you 100%! I didnt mention it in my post, but preventative maintenance in any dept. should be paramount! Thank you for bringing that up.

[robert benz 344]

ok since it was brought up and i wonder how often do you start your saws, who starts them, and it isnt just the gas in the saw if the gas in the can hasnt been changed.... also do you fully empty the can to refill to keep the right mixture? do you guess? who is reading this and doesnt have a clue as to what i am asking?

[Guest FFNick]

ok since it was brought up and i wonder how often do you start your saws, who starts them, and it isnt just the gas in the saw if the gas in the can hasnt been changed.... also do you fully empty the can to refill to keep the right mixture? do you guess? who is reading this and doesnt have a clue as to what i am asking?

We use 1 gallon cans for our mix, and they are emptied before making new mix.

Depending on the company, our Drivers or Engineeers run the saws, as well as members from those particular companies. Saws are part of the apparatus check list, and they are run atleast once every 3 days. Not just started and stopped, or allowed to idle, either.

Atleast that's how it's "supposed" to go....

[Bnechis 3,961]

who is reading this and doesnt have a clue as to what i am asking?

Great Question!

[FirNaTine 370]

ok since it was brought up and i wonder how often do you start your saws, who starts them, and it isnt just the gas in the saw if the gas in the can hasnt been changed.... also do you fully empty the can to refill to keep the right mixture? do you guess? who is reading this and doesnt have a clue as to what i am asking?

100% correct. Most times saws don't start because of a lack of maintenance and an improper fuel mixture. It's amazing how so many guys still can't get the ratio correct and they've been big truckies for yrs. It's much easier to blame the saw though, then the individual. Another fine example of human error in the fire service.

[HFD23 37]

I don't know.... I remember venting a roof or two with an ax a while back, but with saws now.... why the effort with the ax?

I prefer taking a saw and a hook up to the roof personally, any other thought?

Did anyone watch the "venting in 32 seconds" video that the same people did? My biggest peeve when it comes to opening up the roof is when the cutter tries making a perfectly cut box with 4 90 degree corners. OVERLAP THE CUTS to make sure you are making your vent hole and not "almost" making it.

Plus it almost seems like there is no joists in that cut or, based on the depth of the saw's bar, the joists were getting a trim job.

i agree with every one, saws are tools and tools break and fail. chains snap, blades get torn up or break, roof tar buildup on the chain or blade can mess up the saw, they as with everything are not 100% going to work every time all through a incident things happen. so why not have the axe and when ur saw fails continue with the axe while waiting for a 2nd saw rather then be up there with nothing and just waiting.

[Remember585 815]

There's always this method too...

[TCD0415 26]

i agree with every one, saws are tools and tools break and fail. chains snap, blades get torn up or break, roof tar buildup on the chain or blade can mess up the saw, they as with everything are not 100% going to work every time all through a incident things happen. so why not have the axe and when ur saw fails continue with the axe while waiting for a 2nd saw rather then be up there with nothing and just waiting.

Agree'd......... Plan B just in case.........

[jack10562 414]

And of course, no one puts old gasoline down a sewer, sink or storm drain, stream or waterway, or in the trash, where it can cause a fire or explosive condition, pollute the soil or surface or groundwater....

[Guest]

And of course, no one puts old gasoline down a sewer, sink or storm drain, stream or waterway, or in the trash, where it can cause a fire or explosive condition, pollute the soil or surface or groundwater....

We check our saws (Partner K1200) once a week. We try to teach the probies to let them idle a while (5-10 mins) and limit reving the throttle. Years ago a very experienced mechanic advised us that pinning the throttle at full while not under load will burn out the clutch.

Also, unused fuel is a major problem. We never use a can fully before it sits around for months on end. What does everyone do with old fuel mix?

Edited March 9, 2008 by LAD19DER NY

[Oswegowind 17]

Are you able to use "fuel stabilizer"? I mean, that is what I use for my personal power tools (lawn mower, weed wacker, and such). Adding this allows the fuel to sit for longer periods of time...and I only use certain tools certain times of the year and do not run them during the off season.

Another solution may be the emergence of battery powered small caliber hand tools/saws. I recently did a helluva lot of work on my house and we used a number of saws, a portion of which ran on 18 volt batteries. These batteries can be left in the charger until needed and the charge lasts longer than fuel that gets old...

[Tanker 10eng 140]

heres an question.... what is the roof construction ??? looks like your normal 30 year architectural shingles, but over what ??? how many layers??? what is the decking ? I'm sure 3/4 inch cdx will put up a good fight to the blunt end method... also the rafter spacing... when the ax hits plywood over a normal rafter, ( 16 inch spacing ) ... life gets tough..

1/2 cdx, 24 inch spacing, I am sure it will work well...

[Guest]

When's the last time you heard "the axe always starts"?

[Guest FFNick]

Most "good" 2 cycle mixes - Stihl, Husqvarna, etc. come with a stabilizer in it now. I do not think it is necessary to add a stabilizer, but you should check your specific brand.

What I have always been told, not only in the fire service, but when I worked in the tree srevice, is this:

You should not allow your saws to run at idle for a prolonged period of time. The oil in the mix is there for lubrication of the piston and cylinder wall, and needs to get burned out of the fuel in order to do so. Prolonged idling of the saw will cause buildup, and some of the oil can foul the plug and cause the saw to run poorly, and possible not start in the future.

The 2 cycle saw is a dry sump, so you do not have to have the saw "warm up" first in order to assure proper lube.

Now, this is what I have been told and found through my experience and research, I am not discounting information given by others. Use it if you wish.

[firemoose827 324]

Most "good" 2 cycle mixes - Stihl, Husqvarna, etc. come with a stabilizer in it now. I do not think it is necessary to add a stabilizer, but you should check your specific brand.

What I have always been told, not only in the fire service, but when I worked in the tree srevice, is this:

You should not allow your saws to run at idle for a prolonged period of time. The oil in the mix is there for lubrication of the piston and cylinder wall, and needs to get burned out of the fuel in order to do so. Prolonged idling of the saw will cause buildup, and some of the oil can foul the plug and cause the saw to run poorly, and possible not start in the future.

The 2 cycle saw is a dry sump, so you do not have to have the saw "warm up" first in order to assure proper lube.

Now, this is what I have been told and found through my experience and research, I am not discounting information given by others. Use it if you wish.

Thanks for the info. I think thats what happened that particular day when the saw cut out on me. We perform routine monthly maintenance on our power equipment, but when we use vent saws, we start them on the ground and bring them up the ladder with us idling. So I think the long idle times are damaging our equipment like you said. Thanks.