NFPA update 2009 - No more helmets in apparatus

[Guest ECAFD3]

Grow up and drop the ego. One of the biggest features touted by any PPE manufacturer is the range of motion improvements over the previous design. Thats because no matter well its designed, the jackets are bulky and restrict your movement. Dump your jacket in the back or even better in a compartment so you can move freely and react fully in case something happens.

First off you need to learn how to talk to people. I posted my opinion just like the other people on here did. I did not pass any personal comments about anyone. You don't know me or the experience i have, Nor do i you. So next time u might want to take your own advice.

[Ladder44 73]

They fit snugly into the bracket, and are further secured via an elastic strap. Here are two more photos. I don't know if this is a commercially made bracket, all I know is that it is an LA City FD spec, and I haven't seen it anywhere else. It is delivered from Pierce in Wisconsin with the bracket installed. From experience, the helmets don't move no matter how much the engine moves!!! And, the helmets are very lightweight (yet durable), so they aren't much of a dangerous projectile.

And for the record, I love the Phenix Helmets! MUCH more comfortable then the tradtional helmets!

-Seth

Photos by me.

where are the air packs in the picture of the cab?

[lad45der 78]

where are the air packs in the picture of the cab?

"Hold on a little longer lady" keep gripping that window sill while I put my SCBA on located in another compartment ..Oh I need my tools from another compartment which are secured with G-force 2 -mach 3 tool mounts. Ok let me put my helmet on Hey anybody see that lady hanging out that 3rd floor window 5 minutes ago. What's next our mother is gonna ride with us to make sure that we don't get hurt.

[MoFire390 118]

I agree lad45der. this is crazy I have never heard of anything so crazy. I keep my helmet close the only time i put it on is when i get on scene. What was wrong with having the air pack's strapped in like they have been making for the past XX amount of years.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

So when are they going to mount fire helmets in the LA County FD cabs? LOL. Sorry had to.

Look...if we weren't generally stupid...no one wouldn't have to come up with these things. Why is it there? So now if someone gets injured as a result of not doing it the department is liable...nothing can get change in the fire service faster then legalality issues.

Is this really the end of the world? Does most of your days hinge on this little NFPA standard addition?

As with everything else so does come change..it'll be ok. We've been surviving without tools in cabs for some time now. I have a greater chance of being hit in the head by a projectile and getting into a wreck then having someone hang out a window.

I was also not a fan of not having SCBA's in the cab but when we tried it out a few times at work with those in the compartments it really didn't add on much time. I find that when I get out of a cab I have to adjust the scba anyway being I'm tall and it sits too low on my back, the waist strap is too loose and so on.

The key is training with what you have and getting proficient in a different manner.

As far as also having to go get equipment...this comes down to specs. I've always said many departments design trucks by compartments specific for gear and not operations. You want personnel to grab handlights...why aren't they mounted right next to the SCBA's? Out of sight out of mind...rarely will personnel get to the apparatus or out grab an SCBA go to the cab grab a handlight then go to another compartment to get a tool. Find a way to put things you want them to operate with together. Its really not that difficult and it will work.

Lad45der...I've thought of the same thing over and over. But to be honest if upon arrival I'm tasked with the life safety issue you present...1 or 2 firefighters will be completely donned with any tools they need by the time the 3rd and/or 4th FF is done placing the ladder. Even with 2 FF's...this can be done fairly quickly as long as its a 24 footer that can be placed by a single FF.

[Bnechis 3,961]

..... as opposed to tankers and ladders that do 70 mph overturning or blowing a red light/ stop sign. why not fix the problem for example govern speed of apparatus and center of gravity requirements . it can be done and is done in other areas , but NFPA and the manufactures that sit on these commitees cant sell apparatus that way so instead they come up with something as insignifigant and petty as this . no one wants to buy a tanker that does 50 mph and thats all they want biggest engine that goes as fast a possible .

THats in the NFPA standard, the problem is to many tankers are home grown conversions that are not safe to be on the road

scott paks intergrated into a bracket that can act as a restraint device . i not saying i dont think it could not cause a potential problem

Great Idea, but how would that work considering the number of FF's who don't buckle all the SCBA straps like they were tought in school?

for those depts that run a ambulance there is no complaining or scrutiny of techs in the back unrestrained with pts , drug boxes , lifepaks , sharps containers , etc . . i think anyone who thinks this is on top of the priority list on preventing deaths or injuries needs to look in the mirror and honestly ask themselves if thats the case .

Other than the unrestrained tech all of those issues are covered in NYS under DOH regulations. The bigger issue is convincing EMT's & Medics to buckle up and to slow down.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I agree lad45der. this is crazy I have never heard of anything so crazy. I keep my helmet close the only time i put it on is when i get on scene. What was wrong with having the air pack's strapped in like they have been making for the past XX amount of years.

Nothings wrong withthe pack strapped in, the next version of NFPA still allows it. The reason many depts are opting to remove them is so that there is more room in the cab, particularly depts that run 70 - 85% EMS runs. I have also heard 2 other issues, 1 is a number of depts claiming multiple minor injuries in exiting the cab with SCBA on and A lot of ff's claiming that they dont wear there seat belts because they are packing up or the straps get caught up in the seat belt.

[Bnechis 3,961]

once again nfpa is avoiding the real issues and using the 100+ lodd a year as leverage for profit increases of the members (manufactures) that sit on the commitees . every time an standard caomes up the say " we killing a hundred ff's a year " . they should take a look at the types of deaths and solve them . all im saying these is another example of the real issues and dangers being turned a blind eye too .

Have you ever sat on an NFPA committee or even been to a meeting (they are open)?

Because you assume that its completely manufacture driven (It often is, but not always). Back in the early 1980's NFPA was working on establishing a rope standard (1983), 1/2 the committee was rope manufacturers. FDNY insisted that the standard require you use the rope once then get rid of it. All the manufacturers thought that was insane and voted against it. THe Fire Dept reps on the committee out voted them.

i dont see any health or cardiac issues or age limits being discussed but i sure am glad NFPA took care of that helmet issue .

NFPA tackled that one a decade ago...Its called 1500 and when it 1st came out many ff's made all the same complaints that it would kill the fire service and it was not really important, the cost will put us out of biz, etc.

THe big problem is too many depts still do not follow it.

[ny10570 745]

ECAFD3, you're post implied that insisting on removing PPE before operating fire apparatus was indicative of incompetence. I replied with appropriate respect towards your opinion and explained my position, with an example of my thinking. I'd welcome an explanation as to why removing my jacket first should preclude me from driving.

NFPA is tasked with several jobs. One of them is to protect fire fighters from injury and death. The two biggest killers are our fault. Since we won't step up and do a few simple things to save our own lives the NFPA is left to find other ways to try and tackle the issue. NFPA tried to address staffing, 2 in 2 out is one example. As soon as it hit the books depts began finding ways to subvert it. Take packs out of the cab and people insist that seconds matter and they cannot be wasted (this is not directed at you lad45der). Put the DRD into jackets and we get "Why bother, we have packaging methods that only take a few seconds to employ".

[JCESU 20]

Does a web site exist that delineates LODD's for FF's and the causes similar to This????

[Bnechis 3,961]

NFPA tried to address staffing, 2 in 2 out is one example. As soon as it hit the books depts began finding ways to subvert it.

2in/2out is not an NFPA standard it is OSHA 29CFR 1910.134

NFPA's attempt at staffing has been NFPA 1710 & 1720

1720 is staffing in VFD's and combo that are mostly VFD and its a pretty poor standard. The Volly Orgs fought it because they felt you cant mandate staffing in VFD's so basically it says dont start interior attack until you have enough people on-scene. If that takes 3 hours then it sucks to be the victim.

1710 is generally well put together. NFPA 1710 is based on the fire propagation curve (which shows how fast fire will spread from the room or origin to the remainder of the structure) and on the American Heart Association (AHA) standards on preventing death / disability in patients who have stopped breathing.

The most critical components of NFPA 1710 are:

1) All engine and ladder companies shall be staffed with a minimum of three (3) firefighters and one (1) Officer.

2) An engine shall arrive within a 4 minute response time 90% of the time to fires and medical emergencies.

3) A 1st Alarm Response to a structural fire with a minimum of 16 firefighters and officers within 8 minutes response time 90% of the time. For this standard, a structure is defined as a 2,000 square foot, two story single family occupancy without a basement and with no exposures (detached home). Larger structures, high life hazards (Hospitals, Schools, Nursing Homes, Multiple Dwellings) and high hazard locations (Factories, Chemical Storage, Special Properties) require additional personnel in the 1st Alarm Response.

4) Chief officers shall have an aid (responsable for scene accountability)

The biggest problem with 1710 is the International City/County Managers Association (ICMA) fought against it and refuse to impliment it in many places saying "who is NFPA to tell them what they need for staffing".

The ironic thing is the satffing levels recommended in the ICMA's fire administration handook are higher than 1710's.

[RES20CUE 40]

Does the new standard address driving/riding in apparatus while wearing body armor? You think driving in turn-outs is a pain, try doing it with full body armor to include the regular attachments of ammo, medical kit, etc. LOL

[x648eng119 2]

Does the new standard address driving/riding in apparatus while wearing body armor? You think driving in turn-outs is a pain, try doing it with full body armor to include the regular attachments of ammo, medical kit, etc. LOL

Don't get your M4 stuck in the steering wheel!! We miss you here, chief!

[Guest ECAFD3]

ECAFD3, you're post implied that insisting on removing PPE before operating fire apparatus was indicative of incompetence. I replied with appropriate respect towards your opinion and explained my position, with an example of my thinking. I'd welcome an explanation as to why removing my jacket first should preclude me from driving.

NFPA is tasked with several jobs. One of them is to protect fire fighters from injury and death. The two biggest killers are our fault. Since we won't step up and do a few simple things to save our own lives the NFPA is left to find other ways to try and tackle the issue. NFPA tried to address staffing, 2 in 2 out is one example. As soon as it hit the books depts began finding ways to subvert it. Take packs out of the cab and people insist that seconds matter and they cannot be wasted (this is not directed at you lad45der). Put the DRD into jackets and we get "Why bother, we have packaging methods that only take a few seconds to employ".

As i stated before that was my opinion i didnt insult anyone personally im a grown up i talk thing out peacefully.......i guess u just ran out of idea thats it . this is supposed to be a imformative arena of discussion.