Bunnell's Pond Drownings, July 2007

[jcoppola 52]

This article appeared in todays Connecticut Post. I particularly take issue with the politicians calling the FD helpless on scene without scuba gear. I feel that this is the political process trying to spin the responsibility away from them and putting it on the emergency services.

What happened at Bunnell's Pond last summer is without question horrific. I cannot imagine the pain that the families have to endure from their loss. But, being a firefighter myself, I have to also feel for the BFD and BPD brothers and sisters that were on scene that day. By all accounts, valiant efforts were made to rescue these victims by Bridgeport Fire Fighters and Police Officers. The underwater terrain in that pond is noted for being extremely dangerous. The politicians need to be educated in how long it takes to get personnel in scuba gear and how long someone can survive without oxygen. The fact that there were no gaurdrails in place and the dangerous pond floor are what killed these people, not the Fire Department's lack of scuba gear. I am glad, however, that something is being done to improve safety at Beardsley Park & Zoo and BFD is getting some gear that may save lives.

"Plan for guardrail at pond reiterated"

Article from Connecticut Post, March 4, 2008

Due to an error made by me regarding site policy posting news articles, I had to edit the content out of my original post. The only glitch is that the site, www.connpost.com does not archive.

Joe

[jack10562 414]

Tragic indeed.

And Politicians.......creating a photo-op...

Why point fingers at anybody? Nobody could have done much, except of course, unless they happened to be ON the scene at the moment the car went into the water, AND had the equipment, AND the training....

The hard truth is this: anyone trapped in a submerged vehicle has mere MINUTES....

...for any hope to be rescued....

Why are they waiting MONTHS to install the barriers....????

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Tragic indeed.

And Politicians.......creating a photo-op...

Why point fingers at anybody? Nobody could have done much, except of course, unless they happened to be ON the scene at the moment the car went into the water, AND had the equipment, AND the training....

The hard truth is this: anyone trapped in a submerged vehicle has mere MINUTES....

...for any hope to be rescued....

Why are they waiting MONTHS to install the barriers....????

A tragedy indeed. The other tragedy is that the POLITICIANS are blaming the PD and the FD when it appears had they had the barriers installed this would not have happened. Nevertheless, children were involved and it seems that whenever this happens POLITICIANS will use this to exploit anything they can. I hate POLITICIANS and have know need for them. When they need votes, you can bet that they will ask the PD and the FD. I hope you guys make a stand and voice your opinion.

But playing Devil's Advocate I can ask what kind of water training does the FD have? How many Lakes, Rivers, etc...? Would it have made a difference? I don't know. Does the PD have a full time DIVE TEAM? Being a member of my PD's Dive Team I can tell you that it takes time to assemble the TEAM. Even if a PD has a full time DIVE TEAM I don't think it would have made a difference.

I would hope any sensible person reading that article would understand that only if the EMERGENCY WORKERS were on scene and in the water when it happened would make the only difference. If the VEH was submerged and the current was bad it would still have been hard to rescue.

If you can, keep us informed as to what is happening. Have there been any lawsuits against the CITY?

[jcoppola 52]

A tragedy indeed. The other tragedy is that the POLITICIANS are blaming the PD and the FD when it appears had they had the barriers installed this would not have happened. Nevertheless, children were involved and it seems that whenever this happens POLITICIANS will use this to exploit anything they can. I hate POLITICIANS and have know need for them. When they need votes, you can bet that they will ask the PD and the FD. I hope you guys make a stand and voice your opinion.

But playing Devil's Advocate I can ask what kind of water training does the FD have? How many Lakes, Rivers, etc...? Would it have made a difference? I don't know. Does the PD have a full time DIVE TEAM? Being a member of my PD's Dive Team I can tell you that it takes time to assemble the TEAM. Even if a PD has a full time DIVE TEAM I don't think it would have made a difference.

I would hope any sensible person reading that article would understand that only if the EMERGENCY WORKERS were on scene and in the water when it happened would make the only difference. If the VEH was submerged and the current was bad it would still have been hard to rescue.

If you can, keep us informed as to what is happening. Have there been any lawsuits against the CITY?

Bridgeport has one of the larger waterfronts in our area. Without having a great deal of knowledge about them, I would surmise that they have as much water rescue training as we in Norwalk have. Although we recently combined our dive team with the Norwalk PD, all of our guys have at least cold water rescue training and our companies have the suits etc. to do that job. Anything bigger would require the dive team and as we all know, that takes a while to assemble. I am not sure about the PD dive team, but I bet they would take a bit of time to assemble too. We all know that the only way these people could have been saved is if the dive team was on scene and ready to go as soon as the car went into the pond. Let there be no question that BFD did everything they could within the scope of their training and equipment. Reports from that day indicated that the car was approximately 20 feet under on arrival, out of the reach of anyone not in scuba gear. Also, it should be noted that Bunnell's Pond has claimed many lives over the years and a few of them were from skaters falling thru thin ice.

JVC

[helicopper 1,050]

Tragic indeed.

The hard truth is this: anyone trapped in a submerged vehicle has mere MINUTES....

...for any hope to be rescued....

Not necessarily true! Submerged victims have been successfully resuscitated after significant amounts of time! The submersion of the victim should not necessarily cause the operation to become a recovery instead of remaining a rescue. The response time of local rescue personnel should be considered but for a call like this but special calls to the Coast Guard/NYPD should be considered in our area. The NYPD staffs an air/sea rescue helicopter 24/7/365 with a flight crew and divers and will respond outside of NYC if requested (I don't know about CT but they've been to NJ so draw your own conclusion there). All you have to do is call!

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Not necessarily true! Submerged victims have been successfully resuscitated after significant amounts of time! The submersion of the victim should not necessarily cause the operation to become a recovery instead of remaining a rescue. The response time of local rescue personnel should be considered but for a call like this but special calls to the Coast Guard/NYPD should be considered in our area. The NYPD staffs an air/sea rescue helicopter 24/7/365 with a flight crew and divers and will respond outside of NYC if requested (I don't know about CT but they've been to NJ so draw your own conclusion there). All you have to do is call!

What would the flight time be from NYC? Divers are on board the Heli already? If so, then they you need a last known point of entry. You need to know if the windows were opened and the car flooded. The article said that there was a strong current. In a pond I don't know how that is, but that's what it says. Given that, you have to figure that the van had moved from it's original spot. How is the visibility? The veh must be located first then the rescue can happen. Although there have been cases of resuscitation after being submerged, I would generally say more in the colder water than in warmer water. Does anyone know the down time of the van before help arrived?

[helicopper 1,050]

What would the flight time be from NYC? Divers are on board the Heli already? If so, then they you need a last known point of entry. You need to know if the windows were opened and the car flooded. The article said that there was a strong current. In a pond I don't know how that is, but that's what it says. Given that, you have to figure that the van had moved from it's original spot. How is the visibility? The veh must be located first then the rescue can happen. Although there have been cases of resuscitation after being submerged, I would generally say more in the colder water than in warmer water. Does anyone know the down time of the van before help arrived?

In the northeast water is generally considered cold enough for resuscitation efforts, is it not?

Yes, NYPD has two divers ready for immediate deployment from the aircraft (with the expectation that additional divers are coming via ground transportation). This is 24/7/365.

Flight time would vary but I know they've been called to Westchester with about a 10-15 minute flight time (depends on where in Westchester you're looking to use them). Traveling at 150 MPH gets you there pretty quick!

As for diving operations, sure those things are all considerations but you can put divers in the water where the vehicle was last seen and they can at least start a cursory search, no? Seems to work pretty well in the City.

[jcoppola 52]

What would the flight time be from NYC? Divers are on board the Heli already? If so, then they you need a last known point of entry. You need to know if the windows were opened and the car flooded. The article said that there was a strong current. In a pond I don't know how that is, but that's what it says. Given that, you have to figure that the van had moved from it's original spot. How is the visibility? The veh must be located first then the rescue can happen. Although there have been cases of resuscitation after being submerged, I would generally say more in the colder water than in warmer water. Does anyone know the down time of the van before help arrived?

This may help...the pond is the end of a pretty strong river that goes through Trumbull, ends up in bunnell pond then a small waterfall brings the water to another river bejind wonderland ice rink. It stands to reason that there would be some pretty strong currents in that area. That water is ALWAYS moving, I drive by it every night and day commuting to work. I also agree that there may be time, with the mammalian dive reflex and everything, but it is still a grave situation. Good comments on this thread, I am glad I posted it. Visibility in that water CANNOT be too good, the pond is known to be extremely silty, I would guess no better visibility than a foot or so. The van was in the water for only a few minutes before BFD and BPD got there, Many, many people witnessed the van go into the pond from the parking lot of Beardsley Zoo, near the entrance.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

In the northeast water is generally considered cold enough for resuscitation efforts, is it not?

Yes, NYPD has two divers ready for immediate deployment from the aircraft (with the expectation that additional divers are coming via ground transportation). This is 24/7/365.

Flight time would vary but I know they've been called to Westchester with about a 10-15 minute flight time (depends on where in Westchester you're looking to use them). Traveling at 150 MPH gets you there pretty quick!

As for diving operations, sure those things are all considerations but you can put divers in the water where the vehicle was last seen and they can at least start a cursory search, no? Seems to work pretty well in the City.

Well this was a pond in July so I don't know what the water temp was but I bet it was prob 60+ degrees. Now that differs from surface temp to bottom depth. Of course colder on the bottom so that could be possible. So there is a 10-15 min air time with two divers ready to go. I don't know how long the veh has been in the water but lets just low ball it and say 10 min before NYPD was called. When they get there it would have been 20 min. Do we know if the windows were open? If they were, those KIDS drowned. You can get the DIVERS in the water of course and do a cursory search.

[Guest FFNick]

Map of Bunnell's Pond

This may give you an appreciation of the size of the "pond". The current is pretty strong. There is a dam and spillway at the southern point of the pond that flows through the city, eventually forming the Pequonnock River and flowing into Long Island Sound.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Map of Bunnell's Pond

This may give you an appreciation of the size of the "pond". The current is pretty strong. There is a dam and spillway at the southern point of the pond that flows through the city, eventually forming the Pequonnock River and flowing into Long Island Sound.

That was awesome thanks. I am going to assume that looking at the map on google, the East side of the "pond" is where the van went in right? That clears up alot that there is a dam and a spillway flowing through there. Not usually a current in a pond.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Southwestern CT really does suffer from a lack of close and staffed SCUBA units. Not trying to rag on anyone in particular, but I personally think we all need to start coordinating efforts on that front. New Fairfield has 3-4 drownings a year, but no reliable SCUBA unit within 15-20 minutes of Squantz Pond.

[Guest FFNick]

I am going to assume that looking at the map on google, the East side of the "pond" is where the van went in right?

Exactly. If you zoom in, you can see the parking lot in question - there are about 6 cars parked there on the map. Basically draw a line due west from there, and you will see a rocky looking area at the shoreline - the point of entry.

[jack10562 414]

Pin "A" ?

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&...mp;t=h&z=18

[Guest FFNick]

Exactly.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

So the Veh rolled from that spot into the water? That looks like a far distance to roll. Did the kids put the car into gear? Was the veh running? I am now very curious as to what happened. Going to have to search for answers. Thanks for the info.

[biglew 3]

From what I know, the van was running, the woman got out to ask directions to a certain family picnic she was trying to locate. Subsequent reports had said the 6 yr old, liked to " make believe drive" and might have moved to the drivers seat and shifted the vehicle from park to drive. Others have said the vehicle came of out gear. Either way a tragedy, but unfortunately preventable. as Ive maintained in earlier posts, 95 % of all acciedents are preventable, doesnt make it any less tragic, but she should have shut the car off, especially knowing her nephew liked to "play driver".

I also agree with Sage, they should be more full time dive teams available, especially a paid department like bridgeport that has so much shoreline in its response area. I know that city is economically stressed, but if they gets successfully sued for whatever reason, it will be more expensive than training and out fitting a rescue company to do dives.

FDNY and NYC ESU make many water rescues each year. Im not comparing, Im just acknowledging the great benefit of having the ability to be on scene in gear within minutes, whether its PD or FD.

Jcoppola, please explain how this combined dive team works in Norwalk, where and how they assembele when mobilized, under whose command etc? Does Norwalk FD have a resuce company with certified divers on board each shift, I assume not if you have a separate dive team. Thanks for info.

And Chris makes a great point, call for the help, the CT state police have a dive team as part of the ESU, yes it takes time to assemble, but call nonetheless, you can always 10-2. Remember Chris flies WCPD Aviaition, he knows you can get there in a hurry, no traffic, no lights, etc.

[jcoppola 52]

Jcoppola, please explain how this combined dive team works in Norwalk, where and how they assembele when mobilized, under whose command etc? Does Norwalk FD have a resuce company with certified divers on board each shift, I assume not if you have a separate dive team. Thanks for info.

Lew,

The NFD dive team is somewhat still in the development stage. The Rescue Co does not have divers on it, but we do have cold water capability en route. Our dive gear is in a separate truck that is located at our apparatus maintenance garage, easily deployed when needed. The FD divers are pretty much supplimenting the PD team, but I am really not sure of the response time of PD and if they have divers on duty or not. You gotta remember, NFD has recently gotten into Marine Ops with our new boat, so I think that we are still developing and should be squared away soon. It basically works like our hazmat techs on duty, if they are on, they respond to start the first step of the 8 step process (Site Control) then go from there when the FCHM team arrives. The shift commander has a list of all certified divers and hazmat techs. If one or 2 are on duty, all the better, if not, then they wait for a few to arrive. Again, still in development. It is heading in the right direction though. Hope that helps. As a sidenote, PD/FD divers worked a joint operation a few months ago, check our photo gallery under "other emergencies" or this link: http://www.local830.org/index.cfm?zone=/un...mp;starthere=21

for pix. It was a vehicle recovery with no confirmed victims, but the possibility was there.

Joe

[biglew 3]

Thanks Joe,

Sounds like a good start, with the marine ops etc. Is your FD the IC at a marine rescue op? Not to open up a can of worms, but your remember the FDNY and NYPD had to have certain types of rescue ops clarified as to who is in charge at the scene. Usually its the FD, especially in water ops.

Thanks

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Biglew,

Yes, State Police has a dive team, but where does it come from? Meriden... I know the State Police have requested their team for incidents in our town, but don't expect a particularly rapid response. You might get a guy who lives closeby to show up on scene and start working, but you'll be waiting awhile for multiple resources.

[biglew 3]

Sage,

I know where they are dispatched from. I was just saying that you can always start them out , and send them back if the situation is remedied before their arrival.

They have as you know reduced the number of cars allowed in the parking lots to reduce the number of people that are there at one time, because of the small lifeguard staff on duty.

Most of the Squantz Pond drownings happened in areas where they are not supposed to be swimming right? No lifeguards watching certain areas, correct.

You can eliminate the Squantz Pond drownings without changing any of the emergency serives. IN MY OPINION, CHARGE THE OUT OF STATERS 100 BUCKS TO GET IN, AND THEY WONT COME. SEEMS TO ME, MOST OR ALL OF THE RECENT DROWNINGS HAVE BEEN OF OUT OF STATE RESIDENTS, I GUESS NYC PARKS DONT SUIT THEM ENOUGH. LASTLY, IF YOU CANT SWIM, STAY OUT OF THE WATER. THEY DONT LET PEOPLE WHO CANT DRIVE ON THE ROADS, WHY ARE NON- SWIMMERS IN THE WATER. AGAIN, I REPEAT, MOST OF THIS STUFF IS PREVENTABLE.

[jcoppola 52]

Thanks Joe,

Sounds like a good start, with the marine ops etc. Is your FD the IC at a marine rescue op? Not to open up a can of worms, but your remember the FDNY and NYPD had to have certain types of rescue ops clarified as to who is in charge at the scene. Usually its the FD, especially in water ops.

Thanks

To give some history, our boat was a barnacle barge donated by the Norwalk PD. A great group of our guys restored it with some help and it is a nice looking, usable and versatile vessel now with 2 new motors recently installed. You can check that out on our website photo gallery.

The PD has been really supportive of our efforts and we are kind of working together with the marine ops as well as the dive stuff. FD Marine 24 has co-responded to several incidents in 2007, since the boat's official in-service date of July 4, 2007. NPD has a lot of years of experience protecting the NFD waterfront and harbors, so they are helping us and they deserve a lot of credit and respect. I attached before and after pix.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

It is great if you can get 2 Agencies to train together. We train with other PD's but not with any FD's whether Paid or Vollie. We did in the past but haven't in recent years. I am pretty sure that we have contacted 60 Control and they know that we have a Dive Team. Like I have said in the past, it is very rare that we are all working at the same time. But, if we trained with other Agencies, we wouldn't need a full team. We could get to the scene and be tenders, back up divers, 90%ers, whatever. We are not about to step on toes and by know means do we think that we are better than anyone else. But there are more resources out there.

I would like to see the times of this call. I am sure the 911 call came in after the van was in the water. Not sure of repsonse times to the "pond" either. All that makes a play into rescue times. It was said many times. This was a terrible tragedy. Should it have happened? Prob not. I wonder how many times the City was asked to put up some kind of barrier around the "pond".

[helicopper 1,050]

From what I know, the van was running, the woman got out to ask directions to a certain family picnic she was trying to locate. Subsequent reports had said the 6 yr old, liked to " make believe drive" and might have moved to the drivers seat and shifted the vehicle from park to drive. Others have said the vehicle came of out gear. Either way a tragedy, but unfortunately preventable. as Ive maintained in earlier posts, 95 % of all acciedents are preventable, doesnt make it any less tragic, but she should have shut the car off, especially knowing her nephew liked to "play driver".

I also agree with Sage, they should be more full time dive teams available, especially a paid department like bridgeport that has so much shoreline in its response area. I know that city is economically stressed, but if they gets successfully sued for whatever reason, it will be more expensive than training and out fitting a rescue company to do dives.

FDNY and NYC ESU make many water rescues each year. Im not comparing, Im just acknowledging the great benefit of having the ability to be on scene in gear within minutes, whether its PD or FD.

Jcoppola, please explain how this combined dive team works in Norwalk, where and how they assembele when mobilized, under whose command etc? Does Norwalk FD have a resuce company with certified divers on board each shift, I assume not if you have a separate dive team. Thanks for info.

And Chris makes a great point, call for the help, the CT state police have a dive team as part of the ESU, yes it takes time to assemble, but call nonetheless, you can always 10-2. Remember Chris flies WCPD Aviaition, he knows you can get there in a hurry, no traffic, no lights, etc.

Thanks for the infomercial. We don't have divers to bring with us though! Maybe if I put them on my Christmas list... Hmmm...

[Oswegowind 17]

Thanks for the infomercial. We don't have divers to bring with us though! Maybe if I put them on my Christmas list... Hmmm...

But Mt. Pleasant has a couple of LZ's and I am sure that could be arranged, no? Just make sure to pick up MFY also!

[Future Fireman 4]

But Mt. Pleasant has a couple of LZ's and I am sure that could be arranged, no? Just make sure to pick up MFY also!

What happens if you need to go in for work 2 hours later and the chopper still isn't anywhere near clearing the scene? Call in sick, I DON'T THINK SO. Maybe a bailout onto the dispatch center's roof would be in order? Chris, can that be arranged?

Mike

[helicopper 1,050]

What happens if you need to go in for work 2 hours later and the chopper still isn't anywhere near clearing the scene? Call in sick, I DON'T THINK SO. Maybe a bailout onto the dispatch center's roof would be in order? Chris, can that be arranged?

Mike

Hey, we have a hoist! Just tell the day tour to pop the sky light!!!

[Future Fireman 4]

Hey, we have a hoist! Just tell the day tour to pop the sky light!!!

Is Mr. MFY afraid of heights and tight spaces? I hope not! Someone would need to get a photo of MFY going down a skylight to report to work since I would assume Chris would be making sure MFY doesn't fall flat on his face.

Mike

*Disclaimer, I don't personally know MFY or Chris and I have been a Massachusetts native my whole life so I'm only joking here.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Sage,

I know where they are dispatched from. I was just saying that you can always start them out , and send them back if the situation is remedied before their arrival.

They have as you know reduced the number of cars allowed in the parking lots to reduce the number of people that are there at one time, because of the small lifeguard staff on duty.

Most of the Squantz Pond drownings happened in areas where they are not supposed to be swimming right? No lifeguards watching certain areas, correct.

You can eliminate the Squantz Pond drownings without changing any of the emergency serives. IN MY OPINION, CHARGE THE OUT OF STATERS 100 BUCKS TO GET IN, AND THEY WONT COME. SEEMS TO ME, MOST OR ALL OF THE RECENT DROWNINGS HAVE BEEN OF OUT OF STATE RESIDENTS, I GUESS NYC PARKS DONT SUIT THEM ENOUGH. LASTLY, IF YOU CANT SWIM, STAY OUT OF THE WATER. THEY DONT LET PEOPLE WHO CANT DRIVE ON THE ROADS, WHY ARE NON- SWIMMERS IN THE WATER. AGAIN, I REPEAT, MOST OF THIS STUFF IS PREVENTABLE.

True enough, however the government (State and local) has yet to come up with a way to control 1500+ people.